[3.5] Analyze Dweomer confusion

[Fax Celestis]

Analyze Dweomer
Divination
Level: Brd 6, Sor/Wiz 6
Components: V, S, F
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Targets: One object or creature per caster level
Duration: 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw: None or Will negates; see text
Spell Resistance: No

You discern all spells and magical properties present in a number of creatures or objects. Each round, you may examine a single creature or object that you can see as a free action. In the case of a magic item, you learn its functions, how to activate its functions (if appropriate), and how many charges are left (if it uses charges). In the case of an object or creature with active spells cast upon it, you learn each spell, its effect, and its caster level.

An attended object may attempt a Will save to resist this effect if its holder so desires. If the save succeeds, you learn nothing about the object except what you can discern by looking at it. An object that makes its save cannot be affected by any other analyze dweomer spells for 24 hours.

Analyze dweomer does not function when used on an artifact.

Focus: A tiny lens of ruby or sapphire set in a small golden loop. The gemstone must be worth at least 1,500 gp.

Hold up.

An attended object gets a save. But not, you know, a creature? :smallconfused:

Joe McBeean-Ideed is standing next to the sword of magical blinginess +4. Caster von Casterson casts analyze dweomer. Neither Joe nor the sword of magical blinginess receive a saving throw.

Joe picks the sword up, and Caster von Casterson recasts analyze dweomer. SUDDENLY, POTATOES (http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l8weo9ZYhs1qbkdxgo1_500.jpg), the sword of magical blinginess gets a saving throw, but poor Joe McBeean-Ideed is out of luck: he still doesn't get a save.

Who...who thought this made sense? I am just...

just...

wat

[Qwertystop]

I would follow RAW while still allowing it to make sense by considering a creatures body an object attended by its mind.

[begooler]

Perhaps it is written this way so that the caster's success/failure is determined by the level of the object, and not who's holding it.

Let's assume that an attended object considers the individual its owner, inasmuch as an object can consider something.

Caster von Casterson casts analyze dweomer, on the object held by Joe.
Joe: "No, object! Don't let Caster von Casterson analyze you!"
Object: "Ok, Joe, I'll do my best."

Object rolls its save. It's ability to defend against the spell is its own item level, not Joe's.

Generally, with other spells that or effects that harm or affect objects, the object's AC, hardness, and saves are not affected by the power of the person who's holding it.

[Claudius Maximus]

Generally, with other spells that or effects that harm or affect objects, the object's AC, hardness, and saves are not affected by the power of the person who's holding it.

I'm afraid that's not true. An attended object's... attendant can roll their own saves if they are higher than the object's.

[Fax Celestis]

Generally, with other spells that or effects that harm or affect objects, the object's AC, hardness, and saves are not affected by the power of the person who's holding it.

Not the point. If Caster von Casterson casts the spell and targets the sword of blingingness, no save. If Caster von Casterson casts the spell and targets Joe McBeean-Ideed, no save. If Caster von Casterson casts the spell and targets the sword of blingingness that Joe McBeean-Ideed is holding? Suddenly there's a save. Not for Joe, who can get targeted next, but for the sword he's holding.

[bloodtide]

Is this not just a limit for magic items another person has?

1.Caster von Casterson can target any creature and learn the active spells it has, no save.

2.Caster von Casterson can target any unattended object, including magic items, and learn its functions, how to activate its functions (if appropriate), and how many charges are left (if it uses charges).

But

3.Caster von Casterson can not target the magical staff in Marty McMagic's hand without a save and learn functions, how to activate its functions (if appropriate), and how many charges are left (if it uses charges).


It's one thing to learn the active spells on a creature...but quite another to learn things about their personal magic items, so there is a save. So an enemy spellcaster can't count the charges of the powerful item your using. (''My spell tells me that was his last charge of his Staff of Obliteration...Attack!")

[Dalek-K]

Is this not just a limit for magic items another person has?

1.Caster von Casterson can target any creature and learn the active spells it has, no save.

2.Caster von Casterson can target any unattended object, including magic items, and learn its functions, how to activate its functions (if appropriate), and how many charges are left (if it uses charges).

But

3.Caster von Casterson can not target the magical staff in Marty McMagic's hand without a save and learn functions, how to activate its functions (if appropriate), and how many charges are left (if it uses charges).


It's one thing to learn the active spells on a creature...but quite another to learn things about their personal magic items, so there is a save. So an enemy spellcaster can't count the charges of the powerful item your using. (''My spell tells me that was his last charge of his Staff of Obliteration...Attack!")

This is a very good point... However a 6th level spell... I wouldn't take this as a sorcerer or bard unless I was making a specific build as an investigator of some sort

[Fax Celestis]

It's one thing to learn the active spells on a creature...but quite another to learn things about their personal magic items, so there is a save. So an enemy spellcaster can't count the charges of the powerful item your using. (''My spell tells me that was his last charge of his Staff of Obliteration...Attack!")

So...because I'm holding my wand, you suddenly have trouble, when you have no trouble IDing the spells that are active on my person, and no trouble IDing the item when it's not being held.

This makes little sense. Just because I'm holding it doesn't mean I'm aware (of you, of the spell, or of the spell's function), nor does it mean I'm actively trying to prevent your detection from working (possibly because I don't know it's there, possibly because I don't even know what your spell does because I have a Spellcraft of +no).

[begooler]

I'm afraid that's not true. An attended object's... attendant can roll their own saves if they are higher than the object's.

You're right. Perhaps the distinction between Analyze Dweomer and say, Heat Metal, is that it does not directly harm the caster? That still does not quite make sense though.

It may be that they chose that only the object gets to make a save based on the level of the spell. Perhaps the designers thought that if a choice between two saves were involved, the spell would be too weak to be considered 6th level. As for the choice of the object being the one to make the save rather than the attendent, this balances the spell to be equally powerful against a wizard holding a magic staff and a fighter holding a magic sword.

Now I have a new question. Is an intelligent object considered an attended object all the time? (This might already be answered in the DMG.)