[3.P] With so much magic, how can civilization exist?

[Endarire]

I'm trying to make a world where magic effectively replaces technology. Most people are casters or manifesters of some sort, almost all level 5 or less. (It takes little optimization to realize just how potent magic is.)

Even with this level restriction, there are so many spells that just mess up society. Illusions and Enchantments rework hierarchies and perceptions. A Cleric5 with a bit of prep can have desecrate and animate dead handy, or some other means of (semi-)permanent minion creation. A Wizard5 can prep enough fireballs to destroy an unprepared crowd from about a third of a mile away.

If you have mithals or mini-mithals in place- magical fields to ward a city or another large area- then you can give everyone you like see invisibility and resist energy and so on. Without such wards, people are asking for trouble.

I'm curious how a magic-powered civilization can start and keep working from level 1 to level 3 magics and beyond.

[DeltaEmil]

Look at Eberron to see how a magical world would in theory look like if magic really supplanted technology in most cases or is applied as good as it gets if the rules for 3.x really were some simulationist approach to world-building.

[SPoilaaja]

How can modern society exist? It takes little optimization to realize just how potent technology is.

Even with the laws and restrictions of modern society a hunter/normal citizen/just about anyone can prep enough ammunition to shoot a crowd from about a third of a mile away.

Just pointing out that in real world many people have guns. Many people have trained animals that they could use as a lethal weapon. STILL modern society works. You just need laws and a power strong enough to uphold the laws (Police, military etc.).

[bloodtide]

Magic, by itself, does not destroy civilization.

You can look at the modern world. With a little time and money, you can by all sorts of weapons. You could buy an AK-47, for example. And you could easily go to a place and kill dozens of people. The same way a mage with a fireball can. Yet this does not happen too often.

Not everyone that uses magic is an archmage. Most people are just 'folks'.

For example, say you took 100 random people and gave them each $10,000. Then waited a bit and went back to see how they were doing. Out of the 100 people, how many would have used the money wisely and invested it in their future? How many would have blown the money in the first couple of days? You'd be lucky if even 10 of the people did something worthwhile.


In a magical society, protections would be common. Anyone who did business would have magic detection and protection. This to prevent illusions and enchantments. Again, no different then modern times....how often does your money get checked with the pen, for example.

And with lots of magic...speak with the dead is easy. So you don't want to kill too much...after all you can't hide from ghosts, or divination's.

Much like our world, you would just have a 'magical arms race'...or the computer race...every time they make a program, someone hacks it. Every time they make a defense, someone makes a virus

[awa]

keep the average level low lots of people being able to cast fire ball wont break the setting but 9th level spells and even worse epic spells will break the setting in half. Now the god emperor of a mighty empire can get away with being high level just make sure hes constrained by something preventing him from dominating the whole setting (unless you want him to control the whole setting that's cool to)

[Razgriez]

Just because someone has access to highly destructive weapons, does not mean they seek to use it every chance they get.

For some 65+ years, the U.S. has had access to the worlds currently most destructive type of of weapon, Nuclear Bombs (and eventually missiles).

Of all these years, the U.S. has used such a weapon against other human beings a grand total of two times, the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombs of WWII. The only other times the U.S. has ever used the weapons, was for Scientific study/military testing, such as the Bikini Atoll tests.

How many fantasy world settings are there, where a major city in a kingdom, has Arcane Academies. Most Arcane Academies could take on the King, and usurp the throne. But yet they don't.

In short, Morale values tend to act as the biggest safety against abusing a weapons power, or in this case, magic.

[Ravens_cry]

The very same magic that can destroy a society can build it up.
Speak with dead can solve murders, raise dead can make murders less permanent, scrying can discover hiding criminals, teleport can be used to transport high value, lightweight, and/or perishable goods, unintelligent undead can be used for simple tasks in an assembly line; this leading to cheaper, better quality goods, heal spells can be used to prevent deaths that would otherwise be impossible, a cure minor wounds can prevent bleeding out; one of the leading causes of death in childbirth, purify food and drink can preserve food in a fresh state for longer then otherwise possible and prevent the many diseases that come from polluted water. Light spells or ever burning torchs banish the night from the streets, keeping people safe while allowing people to work longer hours, making them more productive.
And that's just fairly low level magic, in high use mind, from a spell list that are basically geared around various ways of killing things and taking their stuff and preventing them from killing you. A society that actively used magic may develop considerably more utility spells geared around the needs of the society.

[Radar]

(...)
In short, Morale values tend to act as the biggest safety against abusing a weapons power, or in this case, magic.
That and mutualy assured destruction.

[Jack_Simth]

As most people have pointed out: The availability of weapons doesn't mean they'll be used. Take Switzerland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Switzerland) for instance, where men between 20 and 30 are issued an assault rifle, which they're required to keep in their homes, and they're also required to attend training in the use of said weapon. Not only does basically everyone have an assault rifle, they also know how to use it.

Now compare to Per Capita Murders (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita): on that particular list, Switzerland is number 56, with 0.00921351 per 1,000 people. The US is # 24, with 0.042802 per 1,000 people - the US has about four or five times the murder rate as does a country that issues assault rifles to it's citizens.

The availability of weapons does not, of itself, appear to increase violent crime.

A couple of specific points...

I'm trying to make a world where magic effectively replaces technology. Most people are casters or manifesters of some sort, almost all level 5 or less. (It takes little optimization to realize just how potent magic is.)
Yep. Consider what the trap rules (such as they are) can mean. Class level 5, 3rd level spells, is where you get to the point where you can build a city that needs only air (and an item issued to everyone - the Necklace of Adaptation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#necklaceofAdaptation) removes even that requirement, and requires only a 2nd level spell to make - oh yes, and the same item creation feat needed for traps - need to raise the caster level a little, though) and magic to survive in very nearly any environment. Seriously. Cleric-3: Create Food and Water, Remove Blindness/Deafness, Remove Disease, Remove Curse: Your entire populace is fed, safe from all diseases and curses, with perfect vision and hearing - because they pass over traps that fix them up on their way to the cafeteria where they pick up food. Tack on the 2nd level Remove Paralysis and Lessor Restoration (set of six - all abilities); the 1st level Endure Elements; and the 0th level Cure Minor Wounds, and what do you get? Just heading over to lunch fixes up almost everything - you stop bleeding out (Cure Minor Wounds - and repeat meals will get you fully healed from any HP damage), you're cured of all diseases (Cure Disease), you're cured of curses (Remove Curse), and you're fixed up of almost all disease side-effects (ability damage goes away from Lesser Restoration, blindness, deadness, and paralysis are fixed up), you're safe from poison for a time, and you can do barefoot in extreme cold (Endure Elements: Comfortable at as low as -50 F) or deal with nearly boiling temperatures (Endure Elements again: Comfortable at up to 140 F). Oh yes, and get an Arcanist working on the Create Food and Water trap, too - Prestidigitation gives it some random tasty flavor.

These are the stuff that change society: Nobody needs to work anymore if the traps can mass-manufacture everything you actually need. That said, people still need to work - they need to be kept busy, and competing with each other a bit, so they don't get into overly much mischief. So the guy who owns the traps charges a bit of admission, and hires people to make/do useful stuff for him.


Even with this level restriction, there are so many spells that just mess up society. Illusions and Enchantments rework hierarchies and perceptions. A Cleric5 with a bit of prep can have desecrate and animate dead handy, or some other means of (semi-)permanent minion creation. A Wizard5 can prep enough fireballs to destroy an unprepared crowd from about a third of a mile away.
Not really. If everyone's a caster, Detect Magic will be dirt-common: It's on the spell list of *every* caster. Illusions become limited to advertising and fashion (anybody can ID it, if they make the effort), it's a fairly simple matter to screen for enchantments (again: Detect Magic). Most 3rd level PC-classed characters will survive a single 5th level Fireball with a little investment in Con (average damage: 17.5 points; a 3rd level d6 hit die caster (bard, say) with a +1 Con modifier will have 13.5 hp - bleeding and dying on the ground, but not dead outright; the d4 hit die caster with the same con will have 10.5 hp - very close to death, but not there, on a failed save. With a successful save, anyone with more than 9 HP will still be conscious, even). Those still conscious will scatter, so your second shot won't get more than a handful of people. Oh yes, and if you're hitting crowds, you've got a problem: Enough people will survive that you won't get a second shot, because almost everyone has Magic Missile, Magic Stone, or some other ranged-effect way to hurt you back (hey, if everyone carries just a light crossbow around, you're a pincushion from up to 800 feet away - more than the 600-foot range of your Fireball at 5th, interestingly - Protection from Arrows or not - due to massed fire burning through it. If they're using Slings, that's only 500 feet, but Wind Wall won't save you).

Yes, you can have relatively cheap minions, if you've got a supply of corpses ... and gemstones ... and if nobody stops you on moral or legal grounds. Sure. And if you try to use them for anything violent, well, almost everyone has Magic Missle, Magic Stone, or some other ranged-effect way to hurt your minions - and you can only control so many. If they're legal, there will be more demand for the corpses for handling brute labor than they will anything else - pulling plows in the spice fields, running in wheels for simple mechanical energy, that kind of thing.


If you have mithals or mini-mithals in place- magical fields to ward a city or another large area- then you can give everyone you like see invisibility and resist energy and so on. Without such wards, people are asking for trouble.
Not needed. Seriously, it's not. An armed populace that doesn't want to be taken advantage of can take care of most of this, if such things are illegal in the normal course of events, and you've got a good set of self-defense and other-defense clauses in place. Especially if you make sure those clauses are widely known, and encourage everyone to prepare at least one directly offensive spell.

I'm curious how a magic-powered civilization can start and keep working from level 1 to level 3 magics and beyond.
1st level spells change society significantly. 3rd makes it independent of farming. 5th makes mass manufacture possible.

But all along the way, if *everyone* has access to magic of the level, then you've got a society of equals, and you can fix up most of the bad stuff by cultural means.

[The Big Dice]

I'm trying to make a world where magic effectively replaces technology. Most people are casters or manifesters of some sort, almost all level 5 or less. (It takes little optimization to realize just how potent magic is.)
I'd say, look for all the places where magic would have stopped a technology from being needed. Like, why build railways? They require a lot of different technologies from engines to metalworking and the number of people it takes to build one. It's much easier to set up some sort of fixed teleport circle to travel between fixed locations. More goods and people could travel much quicker and much more safely. No need to even think about inventing trains.

Architecture is another area that magic would affect. Engineering of all kinds would have no need to flourish in a world where magic can create objects, dig holes and move heavy things with relative ease.

Art on the other hand is something that would be important. When it's easy to make things, being able to make pretty things is important.

[Ravens_cry]

You still need some mundane engineering with spells like dispel magic around. Sure, you can make it so the building only stays up because the magic says it stays up, but any yahoo sorcerer with dispel magic at their disposal can bring it down. That's bad, very bad.
You could use magic to help with the construction, Fabricate anyone? and site preparation, but you don't want the whole thing to run on magic then anyone would want a building that requires electric powered stabilizers not to fall over in real life.

[Jack_Simth]

You still need some mundane engineering with spells like dispel magic around. Sure, you can make it so the building only stays up because the magic says it stays up, but any yahoo sorcerer with dispel magic at their disposal can bring it down. That's bad, very bad.
You could use magic to help with the construction, Fabricate anyone? and site preparation, but you don't want the whole thing to run on magic then anyone would want a building that requires electric powered stabilizers not to fall over in real life.
Actually, nobody mentioned magical pillars - just digging with magic and shaping stuff with magic. But it's a simple matter to make them immune to simple Dispel Magic - the pillar is an object that floats upwards (constant Levitate effect?) that's surrounded by a container of some sort. The container blocks line-of-effect, so you can't dispel the levitate without first smashing the container.

[Ravens_cry]

Actually, nobody mentioned magical pillars - just digging with magic and shaping stuff with magic.

Well then, you still need mundane engineering to know the right shapes and right way to dig. It will speed up the process but not replace it.


But it's a simple matter to make them immune to simple Dispel Magic - the pillar is an object that floats upwards (constant Levitate effect?) that's surrounded by a container of some sort. The container blocks line-of-effect, so you can't dispel the levitate without first smashing the container.
Is the container itself floating? If not, then you don't really gain any benefit since now everything is supported by the container, and if not the pillar and the container count as a single object as both are affected by the same iteration of the same magic spell and hence can be dispelled.

[Jack_Simth]

Well then, you still need mundane engineering to know the right shapes and right way to dig. It will speed up the process but not replace it.
To a degree. But it's greatly simplified - the Wall of Stone spell doesn't list the need for a Knowledge(Architecture and Engineering) check when making a bridge that requires buttressing (although buttressing, and the effects on the spell's area, are specifically mentioned)

Is the container itself floating? If not, then you don't really gain any benefit since now everything is supported by the container, and if not the pillar and the container count as a single object as both are affected by the same iteration of the same magic spell and hence can be dispelled.The container is supported by the thing it contains. Let's go with immovable rods, for the moment. Suppose we Fly up a ways, and set four Immovable rods up in a level plane, such that they make a square, 5x5, up in the air (were you to connect them like a connect-the-dots drawing).

We then make a box out of, oh, stone (with Stone Shape) with slots for each of the Immovable rods.

We then drape the box over the immovable rods, and use Stone Shape to cover the holes.

The box is one object.

Inside, it has four magical objects.

There is no line-of-effect to anything inside the box.

How does this *not* prevent Dispel Magic from working?

[Aspenor]

A society such as this would likely have mythal that would make casting dispel magic literally impossible for anybody except those in charge.

[Fax Celestis]

I'd say a good example would be the Metaverse in Snow Crash. It's tech, not magic, but the limitless, anything-goes potential of it (and likewise of a book in its sort-of-sequel The Diamond Age: A Young Girl's Illustrated Primer) at least presents a feasible dominion that works how the game world would.

[Ravens_cry]

To a degree. But it's greatly simplified - the Wall of Stone spell doesn't list the need for a Knowledge(Architecture and Engineering) check when making a bridge that requires buttressing (although buttressing, and the effects on the spell's area, are specifically mentioned)

Spells are researched, at least in the case of wizard spells, and while a Knowledge check may not be required in game, a spell that uses the technology of buttresses would need a knowledge of buttresses to make. For a simple bridge, theequivalent of a log across a narrow I personally wouldn't require a Knowledge check to make, getting more complex engineering tasks, like making buildings and such would for me.


*lots of good words*

What is an object? A bicycle is an object ,despite been made of several moving parts. You just made a new object, a floating box.

[The Big Dice]

Well then, you still need mundane engineering to know the right shapes and right way to dig. It will speed up the process but not replace it.
That's why things would get to a certain point and then the engineering developments would stop. Why bother developing more sophisticated ways to prop up walls, join two pieces of timber together or rig a scaffolding to support a larger dome when you can use magic to do that stuff?

Once the building is up, there's no need for magic to hold it up. But putting it up in the first place is a different story. Im thinking of towers, roofs and domes in particular, since they were the grand centerpieces of medieval architecture. Just imagine what Stone Shape, Wall of Stone and Wall of Iron could do for architecture.

And that's just obvious stuff. A society with as much magic as D&DVerse has would be almost unrecognisable to us. Especially as they'd have a long history of magic affecting cultural development and cultural development influencing the direction study of magic went in.

[Jack_Simth]

Spells are researched, at least in the case of wizard spells, and while a Knowledge check may not be required in game, a spell that uses the technology of buttresses would need a knowledge of buttresses to make. For a simple bridge, theequivalent of a log across a narrow I personally wouldn't require a Knowledge check to make, getting more complex engineering tasks, like making buildings and such would for me.

The better your materials, and the simpler of a building you want the less knowledge is needed. Almost anybody can build a small shack sufficient to keep the rain off. A one story house is a simple matter if you're not planning on including plumbing, electricity, and so on.


What is an object? A bicycle is an object ,despite been made of several moving parts. You just made a new object, a floating box.
You've got four independant magic items inside a floating box. An area Dispel Magic doesn't affect magical items, so we don't care. A targetted Dispel magic on a person carrying magic items doesn't affect that person's magic items. If targetting a magic item, a targetted dispel magic is only capable of affecting a single magic item. This box has four of them. Which one gets hit? Can I dispel a pile of magic items as a 'single object' and have them all suppressed for 1d4 rounds? Can I dispel that caster level 20 magic item by taping a caster level 1 scroll to it, and then dispelling the resulting 'object'? Suppose I make my box bigger than five feet by five feet, and include more than four Immovable Rods. The radius of Dispel Magic is, at most, a 20 foot radius. What happens when my box is 100 feet by 100 feet, and has an Immovable Rod buried inside each ten-foot square? How much separation is needed before they're treated independently? If I make my 100x100 box a set of 100 10x10x10 cubes fused together, and put an Immovable Rod in each, not fused in any way to the mundane portion of the construction, is it still all one object? Can I dispel all magical the traps in a dungeon by targeting the dungeon as an object?

It's much, much less of a rules hassle to treat individually enchanted items as separate objects. Seriously.

[Ravens_cry]

The better your materials, and the simpler of a building you want the less knowledge is needed. Almost anybody can build a small shack sufficient to keep the rain off. A one story house is a simple matter if you're not planning on including plumbing, electricity, and so on.

I am talking about skyscrapers, cathedrals, and temples, not shanties. You don't need much engineering to build the latter in real life without magic, but you would for any of the former.

[boomwolf]

Just because someone has access to highly destructive weapons, does not mean they seek to use it every chance they get.

For some 65+ years, the U.S. has had access to the worlds currently most destructive type of of weapon, Nuclear Bombs (and eventually missiles).

Of all these years, the U.S. has used such a weapon against other human beings a grand total of two times, the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombs of WWII. The only other times the U.S. has ever used the weapons, was for Scientific study/military testing, such as the Bikini Atoll tests.

How many fantasy world settings are there, where a major city in a kingdom, has Arcane Academies. Most Arcane Academies could take on the King, and usurp the throne. But yet they don't.

In short, Morale values tend to act as the biggest safety against abusing a weapons power, or in this case, magic.


The US is a government, not a lone person.

What REALLY keeps people in line is the fact that they MIGHT be a really great caster and all (maybe even level 7 with these great level 4 spells), but the GOVERNMENT (or whoever is in charge...) probably have dozens if not hundreds of guys that can beat you with an afterthought...


The more common power is, the even more powerful are the people in charge. that's the nature of politics, you are in charge from the first place because you got such high amount of power.

[Jack_Simth]

I am talking about skyscrapers, cathedrals, and temples, not shanties. You don't need much engineering to build the latter in real life without magic, but you would for any of the former.
They're not really needed in the normal course of events. Sure, if you want to build a fifty story building, you'll need some knowledge of architecture. Of course, I might also point out that by most reckoning, the highest level person alive today in real life is 5th level - with most people being 1st. 4th level people are essentially olympic-level athletes - which means skyscrapers are pretty much designed by 3rd level experts. The requirements are not actually *that* bad.

Besides: Don't most wizards take max ranks in a few knowledge skills anyway?

Edit: and I note you completely skipped my further points on using Immovable Rods to support stuff...

[Tvtyrant]

I am talking about skyscrapers, cathedrals, and temples, not shanties. You don't need much engineering to build the latter in real life without magic, but you would for any of the former.

Sorta; the use of Stone Wall deal with domes by itself, meaning you can make arches with it. And you could simply make pyramids with windows for housing; in RL that is a bad idea due to material costs but that isn't an issue here.

[Ravens_cry]

Sorta; the use of Stone Wall deal with domes by itself, meaning you can make arches with it. And you could simply make pyramids with windows for housing; in RL that is a bad idea due to material costs but that isn't an issue here.
In most D&D settings, such knowledge already exists mundanely, you see buildings with domes and arches with no mention of magic being used for their construction, or not for that reason, so conceivably such knowledge was put into the spell when it was researched.