[3.5] Beguiler-gish. Make it so!

[Pechvarry]

A thought exercise for now, though I may be presenting it to a player for a one-off we're doing soon.

I want an arcane rogue type character, and I want it to have at least 6 levels of Beguiler.
I'm very loose on my definition of gish. I don't feel gish should be assumed to have 9th level spells and 16+ BAB, I just want a good caster and combatant.

What it should have going for it:
a) melee centric. see B.
b) feinting master. As one of 2 ways I know of in all of 3.5 to get feint+full round, I feel a sacred duty to make use of it.
c) a reason for a melee-centric arcane rogue to have mostly enchantment/divination spells. <-- I honestly think making this justification will be the hardest part.

My first thought is something like Beguiler with Martial Stance (Assassin's Stance) and Shadow Trickster (ToB) feat. It'd be cool to try to get more sneak attack (Unseen Seer?) and use Ambush feats for throwing on large save penalties (sickened/shaken+Aleval floating penalty. All 3 feats from Drow book). The problem comes in that it's exceedingly hard or costly (rapid metamagic+quicken spell is super out) to hit with a melee attack to debuff + cast a spell to make use of the debuffs.

*Improved Feint and Surprising Riposte (Drow) seem like super must-haves.
*Daggerspell Mage gets me some sneak attack as well as a capstone to auto-quicken if I have the DEX for it.
*Humorously, it looks like the quite lackluster Havoc Mage (Miniatures Handbook) could do quite well. Swift feint > full round to make a single attack + cast a spell, with both getting the benefits of a flat-footed foe.

So there's the infodump of random crap. Can anyone make a build out of this?

Sources: Ebberon's shaky and hard to get a hold of. Everything else is fair game, including every 3.x faerun book known to man (we had an Elminster fan...)

[Hawk7915]

I would almost go so far as to say that Beguiler, even with his light armor, is the worst possible Gish in the game. With no access to most of the critical Gish spells and a horrendous amount of hitpoints for a front liner, you've definitely got your work cut out for you. Even worse, the "feint" build isn't feint as a free action; it's feint as a swift action meaning focusing on Feint precludes the ability to cast Quickened Spells, use JPM's Arcane Wrath, etc.

Here's a link to a thread discussing such builds: Click Me! (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871530/Could_a_Beguiler_Gish_work&post_num=1) I don't know all of those classes well (Swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327) is found online though :smallsmile:), but its a start. The problem with most of those builds is that they don't do what you really want: capitalize on the Beguiler's strengths of stealth and swift feint. They're pretty much stock Gish classes with Beguiler instead which is a nerf in most all cases (Abjurant Champion won't boost anything since you only have like 2 abjurations on your list, for example).

In general, I'd avoid Daggerspell Mage (whatever build you have is going to be very, very feat starved even with 2 Flaws + Human or Strongheart Halfling), and focus on entering Swiftblade for at least a few levels since it gives you the most "rogue-y" feeling spellcasting while also being an outstanding and easy-ish to qualify for Gish class. Mix up Swiftblade with Jade Phoenix Mage or Unseen Seer or even Eldritch Knight as you feel appropriate. And for the love of all that is holy, take Arcane Strike as soon as you qualify :smalltongue:.

[nedz]

Yeah this is tricky.
What you seem to be aiming for is a Rogue/Mage ?
This should work with beguiler.

How about Havoc Mage dip ?
Cast a spell without provoking, and then full attack.

*cough* Colour Spray *cough* might leave you with some stunned opponents, now you just need some sneak damage.
*cough* Glitterdust *cough* blind opponents also take sneak damage.
Where are you going to get your sneak damage from ?
Rogue, Unseen Seer, Arcane Trickster even.

As for the fluff, well thats a different question for which I have no information.

[begooler]

Definitely one level of rogue, and then unseen seer. Get Hunter's Eye. (Or just use a wand of it...)

To make it work well, I think you'll want to be able to extend, persist and quicken spells. So, feats you need:
Spell Focus (Illusion or Enchantment)
Metamagic School Focus (Illusion or Enchantment)
Extend Spell
Persist Spell
Quicken Spell
Metamagic Spell Trigger
Rapid Metamagic

That's a lot of feats, and you're going to want combat oriented ones as well.

UMD is a class skill for you. Wand of Divine Power with a decent caster level, which you can extend via Metamagic Spell Trigger. Other spells below 3rd level, persist.

Quicken your Illusion Spells that hinder your opponents and then attack. Extend Greater Invisibilty and much later Persist Greater Invisibility.

Still not as strong as the typical gish, but the additional skills and spontaneous casting are nice.

[nedz]

Beguilers are spontaneous - so no quicken.
No Metamagic specialist ACF AFAIK, unnlike Sorceror.
No Arcane Fusion either - same reason.

A 1 level dip in Havoc Mage will allow you to cast a 1st or 2nd level spell and full attack. This does cost 1 CL though.

A 3 level dip in Havoc Mage wouldallow you to cast upto a 4th level spell and full attack. This does cost 2 CL though. May as well go the whole 5 levels after this, for up to 8th level level spells, and no more lost CL.

[faceroll]

Problems with Beguiler as gish:
Very few gish spells (only haste and mage armor on list)
d6 HD
light armor
Poor BAB
Very little synergy between class features and hitting things with a stick

Potential solutions:
Abuse UMD.

[sreservoir]

eh, just grab rapid metamagic and call it a day.

[Dusk Eclipse]

If you are not against homebrew, Krimm Blackleaf's Shrouded Ambusher (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90835)might be just what you want you want, it is a skill-gish designed to combine Swordsage and Beguiler abilities; I haven't played it yet; but it seems balanced and fun

[SurlySeraph]

The problem you're trying to solve is sneak attacking someone to get their saves reduced via the Ambush feats and then hitting them with a spell. The easy solution is to just use spells with attack rolls. Touch of Idiocy, Hideous Laughter, etc. Bladeweave (SpC) would be excellent for this build. 2nd-level, lasts rounds/ level, target you hit must save vs. daze once per round.
With that said, Havoc Mage sounds good.

Beguiler 6/ Havoc Mage 1/ casting PrCs +2/ Swordsage 1/ Unseer Seer 2/ PrCs +X sounds viable.

An alternate approach is to use a weapon-like spell and apply as much awesome to it as you can. Spectral Weapon is a possible base, though something like Blades of Flame, emulated by Shadow Evocation, would be more likely to work. Add Snowcasting, Energy Sub (electricity), Born of The Three Thunders, and Persist to get a weapon that forces everyone you hit to save vs stun after every hit.

[Pechvarry]

The problem you're trying to solve is sneak attacking someone to get their saves reduced via the Ambush feats and then hitting them with a spell. The easy solution is to just use spells with attack rolls. Touch of Idiocy, Hideous Laughter, etc. Bladeweave (SpC) would be excellent for this build. 2nd-level, lasts rounds/ level, target you hit must save vs. daze once per round.

Nice thinking, though I was under the impression spells with attack rolls don't do sneak attack damage unless the spell also deals damage (with the exception that stuff that does ability damage or negative levels also deal SA as negative energy or something). So the next step would be sifting through beguiler's spell list to find which are SA-able. That is, of course, assuming the ambush -saves route is even the way to go.

The linchpin is, as always, finding a reason someone would want to feint and cast illusion/enchantments (aside from it being necessary for Cloaked Casting).

One thing I keep seeing mentioned is how few "gish spells" beguilers have. But I wager they have more than rogues do, so that's not very concerning. The bigger problem is finding out how to gish up their backline spells. Geez, this is a lot easier with dread necro.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Actually, there might be a way to do it, although most of the benefits don't come 'online' until late...

Beguiler/Rainbow Servant. Divine Power + Righteous Might makes ANYONE an insta-gish.

[Pechvarry]

That's pretty much the opposite of the way I was hoping to go. That's the "wizard-based gish -1" approach.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

That's pretty much the opposite of the way I was hoping to go. That's the "wizard-based gish -1" approach.

Your problem is that Beguiler... well... sucks at being a Gish. That's really not what they are about.

If you're wanting to create a character who can survive in melee and rely on precision-based or otherwise 'sneaky' tactics, you may wish to consider a Swordsage.

There's a Setting Sun combo which is pretty good at making you not be hit. It's a combination of Shifting Defense stance, which lets you take a 5' step whenever someone misses you, and Baffling Defense counter, which lets you make a Sense Motive check to generate a miss. It's pretty darn handy at keeping you from getting hit.

Now, Rogue/Swordsage makes for an insanely nasty DPSer who can tie it up in combat, and still have some really nasty punching power. xing mongoose gives lots of extra attacks, and with stances at your service such as Island of Blades, you can pretty much guarantee a flank whenever you want to. With Pouncing Strike, you can charge and make a full attack, and if you don't need to attack, you've got Time Stands Still to bring the pain. If you consider Initiating to be a form of 'magic', that is a gish which works quite well.

But Beguier? Sorry, I'm drawing a blank here.

[Tvtyrant]

There is always Beguler/Swordsage/Phoenix Knight to get maneuvers and spells; a tremendous amount of variety and you can use Shadow Hand with it.

[Dusk Eclipse]

If you are not against homebrew, Krimm Blackleaf's Shrouded Ambusher (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90835)might be just what you want you want, it is a skill-gish designed to combine Swordsage and Beguiler abilities; I haven't played it yet; but it seems balanced and fun

So...has anyone looked at the Shrouded Ambusher?

[Human Paragon 3]

I have a build lying around somewhere that goes into Dread Commando for full BAB and 3d6 sudden strike, plus an initiatve boost, the ability to ignore armor check penalty, and good skills.

It doesn't advance spellcasting at all, so you won't get 9ths if you take all five levels of it, but going invisible by spamming blinding color surge then wailing on people with sudden strike, running and charging while using hide, and casting and using skills in mithral full plate without a penalty (you'll need armored caster feat to cast in medium armor) is pretty bad ass.

After that, you could go into Eldritch Knight for attacks or Unseen Seer for skills.

[Andion Isurand]

Beguiler has what it takes to qualify for the Swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327) PrC.

[begooler]

And if you go swiftblade my vote is to get Travel Devotion and take some unseen seer levels (which you should do anyway) for use with the skirmish ability it gives.

[Ormur]

I've made it work in gestalt with Beguiler on one side and a Rogue/Swashbuckler daring outlaw on the other. It really doesn't have so much synergy except for both using intelligence and the swift action feint that allows you to sneak attack. I'm on 8th level now and my tactic in combat has been to cast a few battle-control spells and buffs and then go into combat to sneak attack, feinting if they aren't flat-footed.

The Beguiler buff spells are mostly things that help you not get hit as opposed to helping you hit, invisibility, mirror image and immediate action spells like halt and stay the hand.

Maybe you could get something similar without gestalt with the right multiclassing but a beguiler is already a level behind wizards with a limited spell list so loosing caster levels will quickly make the beguiler pretty irrelevant as a spellcaster.