(3.5) Sorcerer 'Improvment'?

[GeminiVeil]

I've been bouncing around ideas for a couple days on ways to make the sorcerer a little more on par with a wizard. I know that they really don't need a big jump in the tier system, but it kinda bugs me on how those who have magic in their blood are so much less versitle than someone who basically has to study their rears off for it. I came up with two things, and I was looking for some input on them.

1st Item is:
Spells known list just kinda stinks when the only other real competition has basically unlimited. So I was thinking that their spells known could actually be based on their casting stat. For example, for your 0-1 lvl spells, you would know as many spells as your CHA mod. For every even spell lvl after, reduce this number by one. So, if you have a +5 mod, your spells known would look like this.
0-1, 5 known
2-3, 4 known
4-5, 3 known
6-7, 2 known
8-9, 1 known
Of course, still would not be able to know spells higher than you could cast. Temporary increases (such as cloak of charisma) can increase, but if it is taken off or disenchanted, he loses access to those spells until he gets that boost back.

2nd thought is:
Generally, the other weakness I don't like of a sorcerer is lack of versitility. They can just never know the same amount of spells as a wizard. So what I was thinking is that if they have access to a scroll, when they prepare spells for the day, they can spend some of their 'rest' to exchange a scrolls spell with a spell from their spell list of the same lvl. Obviously a sorcerer couldn't exchange a spell lvl they do not yet possess. Every time a spell is exchanged to a particular scroll, the magic inherant in it unweaves, giving whatever spell is on the scroll a 20% arcane spell failure. This 20% stacks and applies every time a scroll is used in this manor. When it reaches 100%, the spell no longer transfers and the spell is lost, although the spell he extracted from the scroll does transfer to his spell list.

So those are my ideas. If people could give their opinions on just #1, just #2, or on both together, I would appreciate the feedback. :smallsmile: Thanks all in advance!

[gbprime]

Our group just makes them more versatile by giving them some skill and feat love.

- 6 skill points per level, any 10 class skills (just like Expert NPC class)
- Eschew Materials as a bonus feat at 1st level
- 1 bonus feat at 5, 10, 15, and 20. (not that anyone ever sticks with the class long enough for the last three, but still...)

The skill monkey buff does wonders for them. Combine it with racial options or Stalwart/Battle options and it opens up SO many PrCs. :smallamused:

[prufock]

I'm more a fan of making wizards LESS powerful than trying to ramp up other classes to match. Sorcerers are a strong class. Complaining about their weaknesses is like saying Chuck Norris is a wimp... compared to Bruce Lee.

Anyway, as for real critique of this, I don't like that #1 is essentially static, except for items. It would be easier to just say "add 1 to all spells known on the Sorcerer spells known table" or whatever number you like. Or just have their high charisma affect spells known the same way as spells/day.

The second one just seems too complicated. Sorcerers can cast from scrolls and wands, they have plenty of versatility.

However I will admit that if wizards can buy a couple of Boccob's Blessed Books and learn every spell in the game, Sorcerers should be able to add new spells to their repertoire.

[Kylarra]

I use a modified form of PF's bloodlines to improve my sorcerers.

Basically they get to access spell levels at 2n-1 just like wizards, but the only spell they know at those new earlier levels is the one granted by their bloodline. That gives them one more spell known/level as well as some miscellaneous other bonuses

[Draz74]

If they get bonus Spells Known from their Charisma, and even temporary improvements count, then they could use any spell that's convenient at the moment just by taking off their Cloak of Charisma and putting it back on.

Without some kind of attunement period or other restriction, that alone makes them more powerful than the Wizard even with their higher-level spell access still delayed a level (which I think is a bigger problem than the things you list).

[Curmudgeon]

I'm more a fan of making wizards LESS powerful than trying to ramp up other classes to match. Sorcerers are a strong class. Complaining about their weaknesses is like saying Chuck Norris is a wimp... compared to Bruce Lee.
+1 to this. Actually, I'd prefer to also drop Sorcerers down in power. Generally I adjust Wizard Wealth by Level by x ½, and Sorcerer WbL x ¾. Chuck Norris really doesn't need to be tougher.

[Dsurion]

Well, there's the Tome Sorcerer (http://www.dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Sorcerer,_Tome_%283.5e_Class%29). Can't say much for it, but it's got the bloodline idea down. However, I DO agree that taking them up a peg is the less desirable option.

[Thurbane]

A common Sorcerer houserule I've come across is to make it more militant - Medium BAB, d6 hit points and able to cast in light armor with no ASF. It represents that the Sorcerer is more of a natural magician, and doesn't need to spend years with his head buried in books to learn his trade. Not a huge power boost, but it does make it more attractive.

[Psyren]

I use a modified form of PF's bloodlines to improve my sorcerers.

Basically they get to access spell levels at 2n-1 just like wizards, but the only spell they know at those new earlier levels is the one granted by their bloodline. That gives them one more spell known/level as well as some miscellaneous other bonuses

I love this idea. Fixes the problem of PrC qualification and they still feel different from Wizards.

It's thematic too - representing your bloodline spells coming more easily to you, followed by general arcane skill as your levels catch up.

[lightningcat]

If they get bonus Spells Known from their Charisma, and even temporary improvements count, then they could use any spell that's convenient at the moment just by taking off their Cloak of Charisma and putting it back on.

Without some kind of attunement period or other restriction, that alone makes them more powerful than the Wizard even with their higher-level spell access still delayed a level (which I think is a bigger problem than the things you list).

I'm not totally against letting them have the bonus spells known from charisma, but they would no more get additional bonus spells then they would more skill points for a Headband of Intellect.

[Bagel]

http://www.savevsdm.com/?page_id=6

find "revised sorcerer" - download .zip - unzip and enjoy :)

[Skaven]

My sorcerer houserules.

Sorcerers:

*gain eschew materials for free at 1st
*Skill points are at 6+int mod per level
*All charisma based skills added to their skill list
*Sorcerers spells known and spells per day are not modified for level 1 and 2. At level 3 they are as if they were level 4, and remain at +1 from then on. Their caster level is unchanged.
*Gain the ability to use metamagic as standard (no casting time increase) - it is sorcerers who shape magic to their will, not wizards.
*Bonus spell list: Can select either Druid or Cleric spells to add to their spells available to learn in addition to Wizard/Sorc spell list.

Martial sorcerer (variant): HD increases to d6 and BaB becomes 3/4. Lose access to the bonus spell lists.

[Lord Raziere]

my wizard power restrictions:

1. ban all the most overpowered spells- like wish, disintegrate, finger of death etc.
all of those things.

2. require the wizard to specialize in a school and take barred schools, unless they have a good backstory reason why they re talented generalists.

[gbprime]

my wizard power restrictions:

1. ban all the most overpowered spells- like wish, disintegrate, finger of death etc.
all of those things.

2. require the wizard to specialize in a school and take barred schools, unless they have a good backstory reason why they re talented generalists.

Interesting, but the thread is about sorcerers, not wizards.

[Lord Raziere]

Interesting, but the thread is about sorcerers, not wizards.

you didn't read the part about depowerizing wizards instead of improving sorcerers earlier, some people suggested it, I was just responding to them.

[Sith_Happens]

I'm more a fan of making wizards LESS powerful than trying to ramp up other classes to match. Sorcerers are a strong class. Complaining about their weaknesses is like saying Chuck Norris is a wimp... compared to Bruce Lee.

So if Sorcerers are Chuck Norris and Wizards are Bruce Lee, then what is Tony Jaa in this analogy?

[Lord_Gareth]

So if Sorcerers are Chuck Norris and Wizards are Bruce Lee, then what is Tony Jaa in this analogy?

A 63rd level Commoner.