Sneak attacking an opponent you are pinning?

[Warsmurf]

Just wondering if you are currently pinning an opponent can you use the option of damaging them with a grappling check to deliver a sneak attack?

I believe it would work if I used the option to attack an opponent using their own weapon but I'd rather not have to take that hefty -4 penalty every time I want to attack.

I am hoping to make a spellthief that focuses on grappling, potentially doing subdual damage on top of stealing spells to use the unconscious spell caster as a portable spell battery... It sounds extremely evil written out like that!


Anyhow, if anyone could give me a RAW ruling on this, and/or any advice in general about a grappling spellthief (not a huge fan of multiclassing) I would greatly appreciate it

[nedz]

You need to learn the grappling rules, which are a little complicated, sorry.

In order to get sneak damage: your opponent must be denied their dex bonus to AC. Being pinned just gives you -4 to AC.

In order to improve your grapple you need:
Better BAB
Better Strength
Bigger Size
Imp Grapple Feat.

Spells you should consider
Fist of Stone (+3 Str bonus to Grapple)
Bull's Strength (+2 Str bonus)
Enlarge Person (+1 Str bonus, +4 size bonus)
The first two here don't stack.
There are plenty of others, but these are the low level arcane ones.

[Darrin]

Just wondering if you are currently pinning an opponent can you use the option of damaging them with a grappling check to deliver a sneak attack?


In order to deal sneak attack damage, you have to be flanking your target (difficult to do when you're in the same square as your opponent, but not impossible) or your target has to be denied their Dex bonus.

When you grapple your opponent, he loses his Dex bonus to everyone except you. If you have Scorpion's Grasp feat or the Improved Grab ability, you can continue to treat yourself as not-grappled by taking a -20 attack penalty (you can reduce this penalty with Multigrab and Improved Multigrab). Otherwise, you have to use some other method to deny your opponent his Dex bonus. You can do this with something like greater invisibility, blinding your opponent, or grappling them in a square with a slippery surface, such as grease, ice slick, or marbles.

For a spellthief, putting 5 ranks in Balance and grappling on top of grease, ice slick, or marbles might be the cheapest and/or most effective strategy, but it won't work for all opponents (flyers, multi-legged opponents, oozes, etc.).

[Warsmurf]

Pinning from the Rules Compendium.


Pinned: A pinned creature is held stationary (but not
helpless) for 1 round. It can’t take any actions the pinning
creature doesn’t allow, even speaking. A pinned creature
takes a –4 penalty to AC against opponents other than the
pinning creature. It can’t move, so its Dexterity is considered
to be 0 for the purpose of determining AC (–5 modifi er). It
is also subject to attacks, such as sneak attacks, that rely on
a defender’s being denied its Dexterity bonus to AC.

I just thought it was strange that they would re-mention this at the end if I was unable to deal the sneak attack damage myself. Would make rogues a lot more interesting eh?

[ericgrau]

Being pinned makes the target immobilized and thus denied dex even against the pinner. The real problem is that you can't make weapon attacks while pinning someone, so it's pretty moot. Damaging with a grapple check is something different; there's not even an attack roll. I don't think you get sneak attack damage. You could of course sneak attack something someone else is pinning, and with the massive AC penalties it's pretty easy.

Fluffwise you're twisting the guys arm or some such. I don't think being a rogue lets you twist his vital organs instead.

[Warsmurf]

No but you could kick the guy in the trachea or dislocate arms ect... I always imagined grappling as much more martial arts, much less highschool wrestling

[nedz]

Pinning from the Rules Compendium.

I just thought it was strange that they would re-mention this at the end if I was unable to deal the sneak attack damage myself. Would make rogues a lot more interesting eh?

Not having the RC, I just looked it up in the PH. No such Text :smallfrown:

From the FAQ though, we have
Can you use a sneak attack while grappling?
You can’t use a sneak attack in conjunction with a grapple check (such as a grapple check made to damage your
opponent), since that isn’t an attack roll. You also can’t deliver a sneak attack with the touch attack made to grab the target, since that attack doesn’t deal any damage. If, however, you make an attack roll while in a grapple (for instance, to attack your opponent with an unarmed strike, light weapon, or natural weapon), you’d deal sneak attack damage if your attack met the normal criteria for delivering a sneak attack. Remember that grappling characters lose their Dexterity bonus to AC only against opponents they aren’t grappling, so a rogue grappling with another foe wouldn’t benefit from that.

What you need is to hit them with Phantom Foe (SpC), then they might believe that you're flanking them.

[RebelRogue]

Too bad it doesn't seem to work so easy. I really like the idea of a (possibly large) brute spellthief grappler sucking magic energies out of grappled foes. It's probably not a good option mechanically, but it has some style :smallamused:

[nedz]

I do like the idea of casting a range touch spell before attempting the grapple though, since you have to make the touch attack to initiate the grapple anyway. Something to sap their strength or BAB would be good.

Phantom Foe is interesting though: if they fail their will save then you are flanking them (unless they can't be flanked); don't try to think how this works in a grapple. Also they suffer a 50% miss chance when they fight back.
I'm not sure what the implications of this are?