Eugenes chance

[Temassasin]

What is the chance that Eugene Greenhilt will actually be allowed on the mountain assuming Roy does kill Xykon. i think close to 0% because of his behavior and what he does in this http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0664.html comic.

[martianmister]

I think %22...

[Dr.Epic]

What is the chance that Eugene Greenhilt will actually be allowed on the mountain assuming Roy does kill Xycon. i think close to 0% because of his behavior and what he does in this http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0664.html comic.

Who the heck is Xycon? Is he in anyway connected to Xykon?

As for Eugene ascending, I doubt the celestials would allow him to hang around the clouds otherwise.

[Temassasin]

Who the heck is Xycon? Is he in anyway connected to Xykon?
sorry fixed.

As for Eugene ascending, I doubt the celestials would allow him to hang around the clouds otherwise.
actually from http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0487.html it seems that they just said to eugene that he was a oath spirit and couldn't go up the mountain and he wasn't judged plus most of the things he did wrong was pretty recent so they would have to judge him again,

[Themrys]

I wonder whether things done as a spirit count? According to my sense of justice, they should, but maybe this is not the case...

What Eugene has done lately should land him in serious trouble. If Roy was in danger of being considered Neutral because he didn't rescue Elan right away, Eugene should be considered Neutral because of what he did with the papers concerning V's deal with the fiends.
After all, the fact that the party doesn't know about that could cause the death of someone, maybe a party member. (I understood that they can use V's soul while V is still alive)

[FujinAkari]

100%

He has already been judged and is merely waiting for the oath to be fulfilled. Nothing has ever indicated that you are rejudged if and when it is fulfilled.

[blazingshadow]

why does he even want to go there? shouldn't he be trying to squeeze for a more apropiate afterlife instead of insisting on going to one he probably won't like? he seems like a neutral good person to me more than a lawful good.

[Themrys]

why does he even want to go there? shouldn't he be trying to squeeze for a more apropiate afterlife instead of insisting on going to one he probably won't like? he seems like a neutral good person to me more than a lawful good.

Lawful good afterlife doesn't seem that lawful. He'd be pretty happy there, I guess.
Also, did he mention he wants to go to lawful good afterlife? As an oathspirit, he doesn't seem to get any afterlife to speak of, I think that's his problem.

[blazingshadow]

why does he even want to go there? shouldn't he be trying to squeeze for a more apropiate afterlife instead of insisting on going to one he probably won't like? he seems like a neutral good person to me more than a lawful good.

[PsychedelicBard]

He's judged at the end of Start of Darkness; the oath is really the only thing keeping him from paradise.

[hamishspence]

100%

He has already been judged and is merely waiting for the oath to be fulfilled. Nothing has ever indicated that you are rejudged if and when it is fulfilled.

Both alignment and deeds are contributing factors to afterlife destination.

It's quite plausible that Eugene's alignment has changed over time- he may have been LG when he died, but his spirit arguably has grown more Chaotic and less Good.

"Nothing has indicated one is rejudged" perhaps- but given Eugene's actions, and possible changing outlook, rejudgement does not seem implausible in this context.

[faustin]

Maybe there still a chance for Eugene in order of redeeming himself form his selfishness. There is a lot of comic ahead of us.
Maybe with Summon Conscience..... :smallsmile:

[Themrys]

Maybe there still a chance for Eugene in order of redeeming himself form his selfishness. There is a lot of comic ahead of us.
Maybe with Summon Conscience..... :smallsmile:

He could still tell Roy what V did before it is too late...or before V does.

The only other evil thing he has done was belittling Roy, which isn't enough to keep him out of heaven, I suppose.

His lawfulness, however...

[Deliverance]

100%

He was judged as belonging to the LG afterlife in the first place despite all the many and varied arguments the forum could think up for why he was neither lawful nor good based on the few scraps of his life we saw in SoD and OOtPCs. He was an imperfect man in life, to be sure, but perfection isn't required. To quote the bureaucratic Deva, "It is the struggle that matters".

I see no reason why his imperfections after death should affect this, unless the author wants to throw in a hefty dose of morality of the "you nearly screwed it up, Eugene, but redeemed yourself by doing <whatever>" variety like he did for Roy.

Our view of Eugene if we ignore the prequel books are highly coloured by most sequences being of Roy together with Eugene, Roy having our default sympathy and trust, and the two of them having a somewhat dysfunctional relationship. We are likely to believe that Roy's interpretations of Eugene's actions are not only correct but exhaustive in explaining Eugene's behaviour.

In the prequel books, however, we see that Eugene's reasons (while he is alive, at least) are not always so easily explained. He is a very private person, who is not comfortable with expressing his feelings and who protects his emotions with deception.

[Azuyomi244]

I wonder whether things done as a spirit count? According to my sense of justice, they should, but maybe this is not the case...

What Eugene has done lately should land him in serious trouble. If Roy was in danger of being considered Neutral because he didn't rescue Elan right away, Eugene should be considered Neutral because of what he did with the papers concerning V's deal with the fiends.
After all, the fact that the party doesn't know about that could cause the death of someone, maybe a party member. (I understood that they can use V's soul while V is still alive)

I think that the deal with the fiends means that v's soul goes to them after he dies, not that they got v's soul while he was alive.

[hamishspence]

That's not what was stated at the time though-

which is why it's sometimes speculated that the three fiends will take control of V's soul- and V's body, while V is still alive, at a critical point, to further their plans.

[Azuyomi244]

V thinks that it is after his/her death (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html)
But V may be wrong.

[Themrys]

V thinks that it is after his/her death (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html)
But V may be wrong.

I'm quite sure V is wrong. After all, that's a deal with the devil. Things always go wrong if you do this, and usually in a way you didn't expect. Unless you're a farmer or a poor soldier, that is. Those are often able to fool the devil.
As a mage, V doesn't stand a chance.

Therefore, I am quite sure the fact that Eugene didn't tell Roy about this is significant.

[ref]

I get thirty-two point three three. Repeating, of course.

[faustin]

Our view of Eugene if we ignore the prequel books are highly coloured by most sequences being of Roy together with Eugene, Roy having our default sympathy and trust, and the two of them having a somewhat dysfunctional relationship. We are likely to believe that Roy's interpretations of Eugene's actions are not only correct but exhaustive in explaining Eugene's behaviour.

In the prequel books, however, we see that Eugene's reasons (while he is alive, at least) are not always so easily explained. He is a very private person, who is not comfortable with expressing his feelings and who protects his emotions with deception.

We know:
a) He was a terrible family guy (pre and postmortem)
b) He made a blood pact (drunk) for avenging his mentor, then he gave up and made sure his son (to who never showed love or respect) took the responsability, to the present day.
c) He is obsessed with get rid of the Pact, to the point of take place and pass for a Daeva in a holy trial, plotting to bring Roy and The Order to Azure City (chained by Miko), etc... showing 0 concern for anyone or anything except Xykon´s death (for example, "Why is that Haley girl wasting her time with that pitiful Resistance or freeing slaves instead of attempting a suicidal attack against X in his throne")

It´s enough for me

[Deliverance]

We know:
a) He was a terrible family guy (pre and postmortem)

We know that his wife loved him and he was a good husband - when that was what he focused on.

We also know that he was a negligent father. A terrible family guy? That depends on whom you ask. Roy would agree, Julia likely would not (seems like a Daddy's girl and Eugene understands her better), and Roy's mother - well, that's anybody's guess.



b) He made a blood pact (drunk) for avenging his mentor, then give up and make sure his son (to who never showed love or respect) take the responsability, to the present day.

While Eugene never showed love or respect for Roy, we know from SoD why he gave up the blood pact:

and it doesn't match up with Roy's interpretation of the things from the Deva's words in #491 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0491.html).

To quote Eugene himself in an honest moment, when he is talking to a stranger he doesn't need to relate to:

Eugene: *Sigh* OK, there's more to it than just that. It's complicated.
Right-Eye: How is it complicated? Have you sworn revenge on him or not?
Eugene: I did, yes, but that was a long time ago. I'm married now. I have a son, Roy. He's almost 8 years old.
Right-Eye: So? I's not like I'm asking you to bring him along.
Eugene: So if this assassination thing you're so eager to set up goes south, my son is an orphan and his mother, a widow. Or worse. Xykon finds out about them and kills them, too. Just for fun. The risk isn't worth the reward anymore.

Eugene then counsels Right-Eye to give up his own petty revenge like he has and to settle down and start a family. Tellingly, when he teleports back to his family and is late for Roy's football appointment, he deceives them to protect them from knowledge that would only upset them and goes all snarky, his defence reaction against expressing his real feelings to those he is intimate with.

My one complaint about Eugene in this is that, knowing he was dying soon and probably thinking more about his mortality and the blood oath than he had in years, he chose to hand over the fulfillment of the blood oath to his son rather than to take one last stab at finishing it himself. Informing Roy was the right thing since it involved him intimately, giving up and dying rather than going on one last adventure was not. Though it is very understandable for a person, who feels old.




c) He is obsessed with get rid of the Pact, to the point of take place and pass for a Daeva in a holy trial, plotting to bring Roy and The Order to Azure City (chained by Miko), etc... showing 0 concern for anyone or anything except Xykon´s death (for example, "Why is that Haley girl wasting her time with that pitiful Resistance or freeing slaves instead of attempting a suicidal attack against X in his throne")

It´s enough for me
Fair enough.

He's obsessed with getting rid of the pact after being denied entry to heaven because of it. Personally, I think ANYBODY who is in that situation and doesn't become obsessed with getting rid of the obstacles to his entry should have his head examined.

That he's a person who used to be self-reliant and who now has to rely utterly on others outside his control removing the obstacles and being denied personal intervention in removing them just makes it worse for him.

I'm just saying, there's a lot more to his character than you see in the antagonistic father-son encounters. He's a negligent father and he doesn't understand his son, but he loves his children and he loved his wife.

[KingFlameHawk]

I think its 100%. Primarly because in strip #487 all he gets for the entire impersonating a being of pure law and good is getting yelled at by a deva. If his actions after death really kept him from Celestia I would think they would have made it know by now. Also as seen in the prequel books Eugene was really not as bad as people seem to think:

In origins of PCs it is shown that when he made the oath he didn't know that it would effect him in the afterlife and his family so him giving up on it didn't seem to be that big of a deal
And in SoD during his interview the worst thing he did was editing his own Wikipedia article so really being a passable father (directly stated on his own tombstone) does not make him a bad guy.

[Bedinsis]

Eugene has the bad habit of assuming the rules work one way when in actuality they work another.
Assuming success was required to fulfill the Blood Oath.
Assuming the Blood Oath didn't follow to the afterlife.
Assuming the Blood Oath didn't affect family members.
I believe the last scene in Start of Darkness shows him surprised that he doesn't get to enter the Afterlife... I haven't actually read it.


All of that is related to the Blood Oath, but what's to say that he haven't made an incorrect assumption about how entry to the Afterlife is judged? Specifically, whether actions performed after death affects whether he gets to enter or not?

[Themrys]

I think its 100%. Primarly because in strip #487 all he gets for the entire impersonating a being of pure law and good is getting yelled at by a deva. If his actions after death really kept him from Celestia I would think they would have made it know by now.

Maybe, maybe not.
Maybe the deva thought the yelling made clear enough that it could keep him from Celestia.

The impersonating didn't do much damage, if I remember correctly, but the information about V may prove vital, in which case Eugene might be held responsible for the consequences.

[Lord]

At this point I would give him a 30-50% chance, while he may have been worthy before, he has had an active effect on the world of the living. As a result, I believe that he will be reavaluated.
Eugene has expressed almost no concern for anyone but himself, agreeing to never see his family again without a second thought. He may very well have been a good man in life, but now he has gone beyond jerk territory, and passed into reevaluaton territory. By burning V's record, he has set up a situation where Roy does not know crucial information, leading to potential disaster. Not to mention the whole hijacking a summoning spell thing.
One must keep in mind that this is no longer a matter of just good and evil. If the celestial realm get sufficiently annoyed with him, they may very well decide to reevaluate him simply because of spite. The Gods in Oots can be petty, so by that logic so can angels.
I would not discount the possibility of a reevalutation on that ground alone.