Top 5 Overpowered...

[[CLASSIFIED]]

For a wizard and without any infinite loops, what are the top five most overpowered:

•Prestige Classes
•Feats
•Races/Templates
•Miscellaneous other stuff

[Siosilvar]

Any metamagic reducer combined with any +0 metamagic.

[Zaydos]

Prestige Class:

Beholder Mage (not sure if this counts as a wizard thing).
Tainted Scholar
Incanatrix
Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil

Feats:

Arcane Thesis
Practiced Metamagic
Metamagic School Focus
Sanctum Spell
Earth Spell


Races/Templates:

Spellhoarding Dragonwrought Loredrake Kobold
Grey Elf
Strongheart Halfling
Human

[Kylarra]

You missed earth spell in your feat list.

[SurlySeraph]

Earth Spell? Does Earth Spell do anything except make early entry easier?

[Zaydos]

You missed earth spell in your feat list.

Added; I don't try to break my wizards so I don't actually know all of the stuff off the top of my head.

[Havelock]

Dweomerkeeper
Whisper Gnome

[Tyndmyr]

I fail to see how iot7v could top dweomerkeeper and ur priest.

[Kylarra]

Earth Spell? Does Earth Spell do anything except make early entry easier?Not really, but since it's oh so often combined with sanctum spell for shenanigans, it makes the list, imo.

[tyckspoon]

Prestiges:
Incantatrix
Tainted Scholar
Beholder Mage
Shadowcraft Mage (specifically, the build version that spontaneously casts 80% of its spellbook as more-real-than-reality shadow Silent Images.)
mm.. I'm sure there's a 5th, but I'm having a little bit of trouble thinking of something else that I would consider to be 'most overpowered' instead of just another strong option among the other half-dozen Wizards have. Dweomerkeeper, I suppose, when used for Supernatural Spell abuse.

[faceroll]

Any metamagic reducer combined with any +0 metamagic.

Except for the multitude of ones that don't let you go below +1.

[Kaeso]

Prestige Class:

Beholder Mage (not sure if this counts as a wizard thing).
Tainted Scholar
Incanatrix
Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil

Feats:

Arcane Thesis
Practiced Metamagic
Metamagic School Focus
Sanctum Spell
Earth Spell


Races/Templates:

Spellhoarding Dragonwrought Loredrake Kobold
Grey Elf
Strongheart Halfling
Human

I don't get why Grey Elf is in your list. Sure, it gets a nice int and dex bonus, but it's offed by a penalty on strength and the oh so vital con. Besides that, he doesn't get anything really special (like the feat humans and stronghearts gain or the dragonwrought shenenigans)

[Eldan]

Well, it's a very high level race, but Black Ethergaunt is kinda crazy for epic game. Almost full wizard casting and insane intelligence.

[sreservoir]

two submissions for race: phaerimm (LEoF) and shaedling (MMV).

phaerimm gets its sorcerer spells as SLAs. that alone breaks it, but it also gets stacking sorcerer spellcasting of its level.

as for shaedling, read through shadow gossamer.

[dextercorvia]

Generalist Wizardry+Domain Wizard+Versatile Spellcaster.

[Doc Roc]

In no order:
Tainted scholar
War Mage (age of mortals, if you positively must shoot someone)
Incantatrix
Dweomerkeeper
Halruuan elder
Initiate of seven fold veils
War weaver

Reserves of strength
Assume supernatural ability
Sanctum spell

Poly line
Timestop
Streamers
Whatever and whatever

Spontaneous divination
Abrupt jaunt

[sreservoir]

also, acorn of far travel.

[Yukitsu]

I don't get why Grey Elf is in your list. Sure, it gets a nice int and dex bonus, but it's offed by a penalty on strength and the oh so vital con. Besides that, he doesn't get anything really special (like the feat humans and stronghearts gain or the dragonwrought shenenigans)

Int bonus, penalty to things you don't care about, and qualify for elven generalist.

[FMArthur]

Here's all I can think of ATM. There's lots of other good things and I forget or remember them endlessly.

Prestige Classes
Ultimate Magus if 'doubled-up' progression is permitted (it's very unclear).
Tainted Scholar is unconditionally overpowered, but with stupidly-easy workarounds things get retarded.
Shadowcraft Mage is just straight-up lulz with Shadow Miracles.
Dweomerkeeper for very similar shenanigans but fewer.
Incantatrix Just over the top in so many ways. The metamagic kings (or queens I guess).


Feats
Sanctum Spell is just silly. Early entry to prestige classes is the practical side of things. At least three game-breaking infinite loops. It's almost never used for its intended purpose it's so poorly thought-out.
Arcane Thesis is the cornerstone of almost all metamagic monstrosities.
Uncanny Forethought rips the soul out of the Sorcerer for the Wizard to use in conjunction with his superior abilities.
Invisible Spell starts being reasonable when you and your DM sit down and figure out its limitations. RAW, there are none. And it's a free metamagic!
Fell Frighten is like intimidation but doesn't require any effort or checks, and only spellcasters are capable of bypassing immunity to this via Dread Witch. It's very easy to stack fear effects with this and render your foes panicked without any way to prevent it.

Races/Templates
Don't know!

[SurlySeraph]

Do we want to expand this to non-wizards? Too late.

Barbarians and Fighters
Races: Anthropomorphic Baleen Whale, Anthro Giant Squid, Half-Minotaur, Feral, Lloth-Touched, Tauric
PrCs: Hulking Hurler, Disciple of Dispater (for Lightning Maces), Warshaper (with the "you can grow infinite natural weapons" interpretation), Soul Eater, Frenzied Berserker
Feats: Shock Trooper, Leap Attack, Lightning Maces, (Improved) Rapidstrike

Paladins and Rangers
Feats: Sword of the Arcane Order, Battle Blessing
PrCs: Halfling Outrider, for Supermount. Prestige Paladin/ Ranger, if entered with a full-caster and SotAO instead of being a normal paladin or ranger. Other than that, eh.

Druids:
PrC: Planar Shepherd
Races: Anthropomorphic Bat
Feats: Natural Spell, Greenbound Summoning, Aberration Wildshape
Fleshraker animal companion
Spells: Quillblast (especially if you use the Complete Divine version), Venomfire.

ToB
PrCs: Ruby Knight Vindicator. Maybe Telflammar Shadowlord or Crinti Shadow Marauder, but those are only really overpowered when combined with RKV.
Races: See Barbarians and Fighters.
Feats: See Barbarians and Fighters. Also, Flyby Attack.
Maneuvers/ Stances: White Raven Tactics, Iron Heart Surge, Aura of Chaos (when used for the 1d2 Crusader thing), White Raven Hammer (when used for stunlock)

Sneaky-Types
PrCs: Probably Unseen Seer, honestly.
Races: Dark template, Whisper Gnome, the Ghostwalk ghost template
Feats: Craven, Staggering Strike, Dragonfire Strike, Nymph's Kiss, Font of Inspiration

Sorcerers
That stupid Dragonwrought Kobold -> more Sorcerer levels than you have actual levels trick.
Spells: Wings of Cover, Wings of Flurry
Other: Things wizards use.

Monks
PrCs: Enlightened Fist, Sacred Fist, Shou Disciple, and Shiba Protector, if by "overpowered" you mean "can do things."
Races: Anything that would be better for a Fighter, and Anthro Bat.
Feats: Falling Star Strike, Tashalatora

[Rasman]

PRC had to be Planar Shepherd and Initiate of the Seven Fold Veil in the top two.

[Tvtyrant]

Malconvoker. GPB a Balor is nuts...

[[CLASSIFIED]]

Not really, but since it's oh so often combined with sanctum spell for shenanigans, it makes the list, imo.

I'm not an expert on this sort of thing– what kind of shenanigans would you use Earth Spell for? Also, how would the early entry thing mentioned earlier work? Thanks in advance.

[Fox Box Socks]

Sorcerers
That stupid Dragonwrought Kobold -> more Sorcerer levels than you have actual levels trick.
Spells: Wings of Cover, Wings of Flurry
Other: Things wizards use.
You forgot Rainbow Servant. It takes a while for them to get there, but dear sweet Jesus they are just stupidly powerful.

[SurlySeraph]

@^: Point. Especially if they're the kind of guy who likes to search through the SpC looking for just the right spell every round.


;10505353']I'm not an expert on this sort of thing– what kind of shenanigans would you use Earth Spell for? Also, how would the early entry thing mentioned earlier work? Thanks in advance.

Sanctum Spell makes a spell count as one level higher while remaining in its normal slot. So if you can cast a 1st-level spell, SS lets you count as being able to cast a 2nd-level spell. This is useful for entering PrCs that require you to be able to cast 2nd-level spells.

Earth Spell lets a spell you can Heighten count as a spell of a higher level than what you actually heightened it to. For example, if you use Heighten Spell to put Magic Missile in a 2nd-level slot and apply Earth Spell to it, that Magic Missile now counts as a 3rd-level spell.

So, Heighten a 0th-level spell into a 1st-level slot. Earth Spell makes it count as 2nd-level. Sanctum Spell makes it count as 3rd-level. Bam, you can cast 3rd-level spells.

That trick Fox mentioned? Rainbow Servant requires that you be able to cast 3rd-level arcane spells, and the rest of its prereqs are easy to meet by 1st level. A 1st-level Human sorcerer with two flaws can get all the necessary feats I mentioned above to cast a spell that counts as 3rd-level at 1st level. Now, Rainbow Servant isn't too powerful... until 10th level. Suddenly, your Sorc can cast the few spells he knows and also every Cleric spell ever.

[tyckspoon]

;10505353']I'm not an expert on this sort of thing– what kind of shenanigans would you use Earth Spell for? Also, how would the early entry thing mentioned earlier work? Thanks in advance.

Earth Spell gives you a free extra effective level when you Heighten something and causes your Heighten to also increase your caster level for the spell. It's mostly used by Shadowcraft Mages so they can use their illusion -> Shadow effect ability on their highest spell level (ability can turn an illusion into a spell of illusion's spell level -1, -1 spell level penalty is balanced by Earth Spell's bonus) and so they never have to memorize anything other than Silent Image ever again. For early entry it's kind of awkward, because it uses 3 feats, but the same benefit is applied to a different end; when you Heighten a spell, it is for all mechanical purposes a spell of the Heightened level. Earth Spell gives you a free bonus spell level on that, which can break the normal restriction that you only Heighten as high as you can actually cast. So- take a cantrip, Heighten it to 2nd, Earth Spell makes it a 3rd level spell. Voila, you satisfy that particular prereq.

[Fox Box Socks]

That trick Fox mentioned? Rainbow Servant requires that you be able to cast 3rd-level arcane spells, and the rest of its prereqs are easy to meet by 1st level. A 1st-level Human sorcerer with two flaws can get all the necessary feats I mentioned above to cast a spell that counts as 3rd-level at 1st level. Now, Rainbow Servant isn't too powerful... until 10th level. Suddenly, your Sorc can cast the few spells he knows and also every Cleric spell ever.
Being able to cast the entire Cleric spell list spontaneously leads to a lot of this:

"Oh! Oh! I know the PERFECT spell for just this situation! Give me two minutes"

Ten minutes later, they find the spell. And the sad part is that it generally is the perfect spell for that situation.

[Mr.Bookworm]

That trick Fox mentioned? Rainbow Servant requires that you be able to cast 3rd-level arcane spells, and the rest of its prereqs are easy to meet by 1st level. A 1st-level Human sorcerer with two flaws can get all the necessary feats I mentioned above to cast a spell that counts as 3rd-level at 1st level. Now, Rainbow Servant isn't too powerful... until 10th level. Suddenly, your Sorc can cast the few spells he knows and also every Cleric spell ever.

No, actually. Give WotC the tiny little bit of credit they deserve. Sorcerers have to learn those Cleric spells as they usually learn spells. Still pretty good, but not game-breaking.

Rainbow Servant becomes broken when you combo it with Beguiler or Warmage, both written after Complete Divine. They both spontaneously cast, so they can qualify for Rainbow Servant, but they spontaneously cast off their entire spell list. So when they hit level 10, the shenanigans you mention happen.

[SurlySeraph]

*checks* Yep, you're right. Sorcs can't do that, just Beguilers, Warmages, and I think Dread Necromancers.

[Fox Box Socks]

Whoops, my bad.

Hey, you know what Prestige Class nobody ever talks about, but is actually really, really, really good? Escalation Mage. Oh sure, it's not really worth dipping into it, but once you get all six levels, you get full casting progression, bonus HP, free Quicken Spell 1/day, free Empower Spell 1/day, free Heighten Spell 1/day, free Widen Spell 1/day, and the ability to cheese the costs of any of those metamagic feats with a caster level check.

I used to think that blasters weren't really viable in an optimized group, but this was before I saw a Warmage / Escalation Mage getting free Empower Spell off of literally every single spell he cast.

[FMArthur]

It is absolutely worth dipping into for as little as two or three levels because its prerequisites are a metamagic feat and skill ranks in skills you should already take as a Wizard, advances full casting and is better than staying a Wizard.

[tyckspoon]

Whoops, my bad.

Hey, you know what Prestige Class nobody ever talks about, but is actually really, really, really good? Escalation Mage. Oh sure, it's not really worth dipping into it, but once you get all six levels, you get full casting progression, bonus HP, free Quicken Spell 1/day, free Empower Spell 1/day, free Heighten Spell 1/day, free Widen Spell 1/day, and the ability to cheese the costs of any of those metamagic feats with a caster level check.

I used to think that blasters weren't really viable in an optimized group, but this was before I saw a Warmage / Escalation Mage getting free Empower Spell off of literally every single spell he cast.

Nobody sees it because they're flinching away from the glaring brokenness of the Planar Shepherd. :smallamused: Thanks for the tip, tho- that's a pretty interesting class. No onerous entry prereqs (well, aside from the fluff/setting requirement to be worshipping an Ominous and Possibly Evil God of the Dark), full casting advancement, useful abilities. I wouldn't say it's broken, actually, just because the metamagics it can do for free are generally not too troublesome (no Persist, Twin.. Quicken is quite tasty, tho.) and the mechanism they use actually scales pretty well; without a fair bit of additional investment, a caster level check is actually a pretty good way of putting a scaling mechanism on a caster.

[Andion Isurand]

For wizards and sorcerers:

Magic-Blooded Primordial "Lesser" Half-Giant @ LA +0
(Dragon 306 + Secrets of Xen'drik + Complete Psionic)
-4 Str, -2 Dex, +4 Int, -2 Wis, +6 Cha

For wizards:

Arctic Dragonborn Arcane Gnome @ LA +0
(Dragon 306 + RotD + Dragon 291)
-2 Str, -2 Dex, +6 Con, +2 Int, -2 Wis, -2 Cha

[nedz]

...
Rainbow Servant becomes broken when you combo it with Beguiler or Warmage, both written after Complete Divine. They both spontaneously cast, so they can qualify for Rainbow Servant, but they spontaneously cast off their entire spell list. So when they hit level 10, the shenanigans you mention happen.

And then, since they are mainly Divine spells: you go Mystic Theurge :smalleek:
(Same principle as Ultimate Magus, so YMMV)

[MeeposFire]

For wizards and sorcerers:

Magic-Blooded Primordial "Lesser" Half-Giant @ LA +0
(Dragon 306 + Secrets of Xen'drik + Complete Psionic)
-4 Str, -2 Dex, +4 Int, -2 Wis, +6 Cha



What no dragonborn:smallwink:? That would make for -4 dex but +2 con which is nice and half giant's racial features are not that great for spellcasters anyway.

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

For wizards and sorcerers:

Magic-Blooded Primordial "Lesser" Half-Giant @ LA +0
(Dragon 306 + Secrets of Xen'drik + Complete Psionic)
-4 Str, -2 Dex, +4 Int, -2 Wis, +6 Cha

For wizards:

Arctic Dragonborn Arcane Gnome @ LA +0
(Dragon 306 + RotD + Dragon 291)
-2 Str, -2 Dex, +6 Con, +2 Int, -2 Wis, -2 ChaZOMG BROKEN :smallsigh:

And the first one has "half-giant" as the race, not the template making the LA 2

Be sure to che

[The Glyphstone]

And then, since they are mainly Divine spells: you go Mystic Theurge :smalleek:
(Same principle as Ultimate Magus, so YMMV)

Actually, Rainbow Servant is an Arcane casting class - it explicitly adds the Cleric spells to the caster's list as Arcane spells, and only advances arcane spellcasting. So no dice on MT...even if you could, it'd be useless because the the RS capstone requires RS10, and there's no way to progress its casting after 10.

[Aspenor]

Sanctum Spell shenanigans don't actually work by RAW, so I don't understand why people always talk about them. There is a huge difference between casting "level X spells" and "effectively level X" spells.

But meh, whatever, people believe what they have been told and hold on to that stuff no matter how wrong it is.

[sreservoir]

Sanctum Spell shenanigans don't actually work by RAW, so I don't understand why people always talk about them. There is a huge difference between casting "level X spells" and "effectively level X" spells.

But meh, whatever, people believe what they have been told and hold on to that stuff no matter how wrong it is.

so you would allow versatile spellcaster without spells known? after all, they can cast spells of that level, they just have no spell that are effectively that level to cast.

[Aspenor]

so you would allow versatile spellcaster without spells known? after all, they can cast spells of that level, they just have no spell that are effectively that level to cast.

What? When did I say anything about Versatile Spellcaster?

[faceroll]

Int bonus, penalty to things you don't care about, and qualify for elven generalist.

Yeah, getting extra spells/spells with higher DCs is really that good. It's kinda crazy how well magic scales with a high int/cha/wis score in a practical op game. Of course there are other ways to get n+1 spells/day & saves, but without ascending pun-puns latter, getting 34 int is pretty freakin sweet.

[sreservoir]

What? When did I say anything about Versatile Spellcaster?

you didn't. you're trying to make a distinction between "able to cast x-level spells" and "able to cast effectively x-level spells", in favor of "able to cast from x-level spell slots". am I misunderstanding what you're trying to say?

[FMArthur]

Yeah, what I'm seeing is that he means that effectively doesn't actually have its real meaning and doesn't provide actual benefits. Like if you had a Druid 3/Bard 3 with the Natural Bond feat increasing your effective Druid level for your animal companion, his interpretation might be that the feat does absolutely nothing. :smallconfused:

[Shademan]

Diplomacy and bluff...

[Tyndmyr]

I don't get why Grey Elf is in your list. Sure, it gets a nice int and dex bonus, but it's offed by a penalty on strength and the oh so vital con. Besides that, he doesn't get anything really special (like the feat humans and stronghearts gain or the dragonwrought shenenigans)

Well, elven generalist. Bonus points if you also select domain wizard.

That said, I generally prefer humans in practice and just pick up extra spells via specialization. Feats are fantastic.

Lesser Tiefling is also a fantastic wizard race.

[Aspenor]

you didn't. you're trying to make a distinction between "able to cast x-level spells" and "able to cast effectively x-level spells", in favor of "able to cast from x-level spell slots". am I misunderstanding what you're trying to say?
Something like that, but not quite.


Yeah, what I'm seeing is that he means that effectively doesn't actually have its real meaning and doesn't provide actual benefits. Like if you had a Druid 3/Bard 3 with the Natural Bond feat increasing your effective Druid level for your animal companion, his interpretation might be that the feat does absolutely nothing. :smallconfused:
Wrong.

Casting "effectively level X spells" has a specific meaning:


All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level.
Very similar text can also be found in Sanctum Spell.

Sanctum Spell does not *actually* change the level of a spell. It *effectively* does so, which the meaning of is defined above. The level is treated differently for purposes of in-game effects. However, Sanctum Spell does not actually change the level of the spell you are casting.

Heighten Spell + Earth Spell early entry tricks actually DO work, because Heighten Spell says:

A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level).

and also:

For
example, a cleric could prepare hold person as a 4th-level spell
(instead of a 2nd-level spell), and it would in all ways be treated as a
4th-level spell.
Emphasis mine.

Also, Earth Spell says nothing about changing the "effective" level, it just simply says that it changes the spell's level as Heighten does.

For this same reason you cannot do things like cast a Sanctum Arcane Fusion inside of an Arcane Fusion. "Effective" spell level and Spell Level are different things.

[Narren]

I don't know if I'd call it broken, but Abjurant Champion is so easy to gain entry to and has virtually no drawbacks, so I've never seen a gish build without it.

[FMArthur]

Well, elven generalist. Bonus points if you also select domain wizard.

That said, I generally prefer humans in practice and just pick up extra spells via specialization. Feats are fantastic.

Lesser Tiefling is also a fantastic wizard race.

I would never actually call grey elves overpowered as a Wizard race. It's just strong - human strong. That's pretty much still at the baseline for comparison.

[SurlySeraph]

Sanctum Spell shenanigans don't actually work by RAW, so I don't understand why people always talk about them. There is a huge difference between casting "level X spells" and "effectively level X" spells.

But meh, whatever, people believe what they have been told and hold on to that stuff no matter how wrong it is.

You haven't proven that yet.


A sanctum spell has an effective spell level higher than its normal level


A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level. The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level.

Looks like higher spell level = higher effective spell level to me.

[nedz]

Actually, Rainbow Servant is an Arcane casting class - it explicitly adds the Cleric spells to the caster's list as Arcane spells, and only advances arcane spellcasting. So no dice on MT...even if you could, it'd be useless because the the RS capstone requires RS10, and there's no way to progress its casting after 10.

Well maybe, but I think its argueable.
CDiv p 55, under Cleric Spell Access
... Such spells are cast as divine spells if they don't appear on the Wizard/Sorceror or Bard spell lists. ...

So, yes, RS is an arcane PrC; but it also allows you to cast divine spells from the same casting progression. Since you can advance your spell casting further by means of Arcane PrCs, you can also do that with Divine PrCs. If your second point was valid: you couldn't switch into Master Specialist (say) either.

[Aspenor]

Looks like higher spell level = higher effective spell level to me.

Wrong.

The first sentence explains what the feat does: it raises the actual level of the spell.

The second sentence explains how this is different from other metamagic feats.

The third sentence explains what "effective level" means.

"You haven't proven that" is the something a person says when they know they are wrong. It's saying "I don't have anything of substance to say to refute your point, so I'll just say you haven't proven it."

[tonberrian]

Actually, Rainbow Servant is an Arcane casting class - it explicitly adds the Cleric spells to the caster's list as Arcane spells, and only advances arcane spellcasting. So no dice on MT...even if you could, it'd be useless because the the RS capstone requires RS10, and there's no way to progress its casting after 10.

Check again, oh great and powerful mod. If the spell doesn't appear on the sorcerer/wizard or bard spell lists, it is cast as a divine spell, making whatever spellcasting classes you have be able to cast divine spells if you choose your spells right (this effects the casting of the base classes, so you can increase them with other PRCs).

Edit: I can't believe I missed nedz's post!

[Forged Fury]

Thanks for the tip, tho- that's a pretty interesting class. No onerous entry prereqs, full casting advancement, useful abilities. I wouldn't say it's broken, actually, just because the metamagics it can do for free are generally not too troublesome and the mechanism they use actually scales pretty well; without a fair bit of additional investment, a caster level check is actually a pretty good way of putting a scaling mechanism on a caster.
Two quick comments.

Big fan of Escalation Mage and I think it's pretty balanced. At its capstone level, it can only use escalations 10 times/day (the four freebies gained at 6th level that are limited to being applied to (Highest Level Spell - 1)) and the six you are able to use as part of the class feature. The daily use limitation is hidden at the end of the first paragraph. Still, it's a nice bonus since you get full casting and bonus hit points.

Also, although it isn't intended for it, a single feat investment (Arcane Mastery) will allow you to ignore many of the CL checks since you can now take 10 on Caster Level checks. While it seems pretty clear it was meant for help with dispel issues, it isn't actually specified anywhere other than the flavor text.

I'm playing a sorceress who is about to pick up a few EM levels.

[SurlySeraph]

"A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal." "Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies." Looks like that says that higher effective spell level = higher spell level. I see nothing there suggesting that the third sentence describes what the second sentence means, but *not* what the first sentence means.


"You haven't proven that" is the something a person says when they know they are wrong. It's saying "I don't have anything of substance to say to refute your point, so I'll just say you haven't proven it."

No, it means that I think you have a potentially useful point to make, and that you have not yet made that point. If you can make a sound argument for why the Sanctum Spell trick doesn't work, rather than simply asserting that your reading of Heighten Spell is right with little explanation, I'm eager to listen.

[Adrayll]

Shouldn't metaphysical spellshaper get a mention? Ability damage for metamagic? Yes please.

[Aspenor]

"A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal." "Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies." Looks like that says that higher effective spell level = higher spell level. I see nothing there suggesting that the third sentence describes what the second sentence means, but *not* what the first sentence means.

No, it means that I think you have a potentially useful point to make, and that you have not yet made that point. If you can make a sound argument for why the Sanctum Spell trick doesn't work, rather than simply asserting that your reading of Heighten Spell is right with little explanation, I'm eager to listen.

Quoting out of context doesn't make your argument stronger. You are completely ignoring the opening text of the second sentence that reads "unlike other metamagic feats." In context, this means that this sentence is not explaining the first sentence, but rather explaining how Heighten Spell is different than other metamagic feats. Since Maximize Spell does not "effectively" change a spell's level, a Maximized Fireball will not penetrate a Globe of Invulnerability. It is still, however, a 6th level spell slot used.

Since a Maximized Fireball is, actually, a 6th level spell, but is not "effectively" a 6th level spell, a Sanctum 3rd level spell cast inside the sanctum remains to be a 3rd level spell despite being "effectively" a 4th level spell.

Sanctum spell does not actually change the spell level. It merely makes a spell effectively one level higher or lower, which only governs save DC and ability to penetrate things like globes of invulnerability.

For this same reason, you cannot use a Sanctum Arcane Fusion inside an Arcane Fusion. You may use a +1 metamagic such as Extend Spell on a cantrip to qualify for the 1st level spell, but you may not use a Sanctum Spell Arcane Fusion outside the Sanctum to qualify as casting a 3rd level spell.

Spell level and effective spell level are different things entirely, by RAW.

[aquaticrna]

Quoting out of context doesn't make your argument stronger. You are completely ignoring the opening text of the second sentence that reads "unlike other metamagic feats." In context, this means that this sentence is not explaining the first sentence, but rather explaining how Heighten Spell is different than other metamagic feats. Since Maximize Spell does not "effectively" change a spell's level, a Maximized Fireball will not penetrate a Globe of Invulnerability. It is still, however, a 6th level spell slot used.

Since a Maximized Fireball is, actually, a 6th level spell, but is not "effectively" a 6th level spell, a Sanctum 3rd level spell cast inside the sanctum remains to be a 3rd level spell despite being "effectively" a 4th level spell.

Sanctum spell does not actually change the spell level. It merely makes a spell effectively one level higher or lower, which only governs save DC and ability to penetrate things like globes of invulnerability.

For this same reason, you cannot use a Sanctum Arcane Fusion inside an Arcane Fusion. You may use a +1 metamagic such as Extend Spell on a cantrip to qualify for the 1st level spell, but you may not use a Sanctum Spell Arcane Fusion outside the Sanctum to qualify as casting a 3rd level spell.

Spell level and effective spell level are different things entirely, by RAW.

So at the first emphasis you're saying it's not effectively a level higher, so it's a 3rd level spell, but at the second emphasis you're saying it is effectively a level higher but that doesn't mean it actually gets to count... You're switching up your use of the word effectively and it has made me effectively confused =P

[Aspenor]

So at the first emphasis you're saying it's not effectively a level higher, so it's a 3rd level spell, but at the second emphasis you're saying it is effectively a level higher but that doesn't mean it actually gets to count... You're switching up your use of the word effectively and it has made me effectively confused =P

No, I didn't switch it up, I said it exactly the way it works.

[dextercorvia]

Since a Maximized Fireball is, actually, a 6th level spell,

Actually, it is a 3rd level spell that you must cast (without other arrangements) from a 6th level spell slot.

You may have a technical point that being effectively an X level spell is not the same as being an X level spell. But, you have to consider what it means to effectively be an X level spell. That means, for all intents and purposes, treat it like it is an X level spell, including qualifying for feats/PrC's. If there is some purpose or effect of an X level spell that it can't be used for, then it is not effectively X level.

[Aspenor]

Actually, it is a 3rd level spell that you must cast (without other arrangements) from a 6th level spell slot.

You may have a technical point that being effectively an X level spell is not the same as being an X level spell. But, you have to consider what it means to effectively be an X level spell. That means, for all intents and purposes, treat it like it is an X level spell, including qualifying for feats/PrC's. If there is some purpose or effect of an X level spell that it can't be used for, then it is not effectively X level.

Qualifying for feats and PrC's does not fall under the bounds of what defines an "effectively level X" spell. Heighten Spell specifically contains text that states the spell is treated "in all ways" as a spell of the higher level. Sanctum Spell does not contain that text, and thus is not treated "in all ways" as a spell of the adjusted effective level.

"Effective" spell level only governs spell level dependent *effects." Qualifying for feats and PrC's is not an effect.

[sreservoir]

Quoting out of context doesn't make your argument stronger. You are completely ignoring the opening text of the second sentence that reads "unlike other metamagic feats." In context, this means that this sentence is not explaining the first sentence, but rather explaining how Heighten Spell is different than other metamagic feats. Since Maximize Spell does not "effectively" change a spell's level, a Maximized Fireball will not penetrate a Globe of Invulnerability. It is still, however, a 6th level spell slot used.

Since a Maximized Fireball is, actually, a 6th level spell, but is not "effectively" a 6th level spell, a Sanctum 3rd level spell cast inside the sanctum remains to be a 3rd level spell despite being "effectively" a 4th level spell.

so, is an extended spell not effectively, but actually the higher level, when qualifying for feats, prcs, et cetera?

if so, then if I can apply +inf metamagic by trickery, does that count as being able to cast inf-level spells?

how about if an effect says I can cast spells of a particular level? do I count as being able to cast spells of that level, even without a spell that is effectively that level?

[sonofzeal]

so, is an extended spell not effectively, but actually the higher level, when qualifying for feats, prcs, et cetera?

if so, then if I can apply +inf metamagic by trickery, does that count as being able to cast inf-level spells?

how about if an effect says I can cast spells of a particular level? do I count as being able to cast spells of that level, even without a spell that is effectively that level?
Where are you getting the spell slot from?

[Aspenor]

so, is an extended spell not effectively, but actually the higher level, when qualifying for feats, prcs, et cetera?

if so, then if I can apply +inf metamagic by trickery, does that count as being able to cast inf-level spells?

how about if an effect says I can cast spells of a particular level? do I count as being able to cast spells of that level, even without a spell that is effectively that level?

Trickery is a function of class features, typically, not metamagic feats. You are applying metamagic feats through class features, not through typical means, and thus does not qualify.

[dextercorvia]

Qualifying for feats and PrC's does not fall under the bounds of what defines an "effectively level X" spell. Heighten Spell specifically contains text that states the spell is treated "in all ways" as a spell of the higher level. Sanctum Spell does not contain that text, and thus is not treated "in all ways" as a spell of the adjusted effective level.

"Effective" spell level only governs spell level dependent *effects." Qualifying for feats and PrC's is not an effect.

Can you point me to the game rule definition of effectively that agrees with your reading? Otherwise, we need to refer to the dictionary (http://www.google.com/dictionary?q=effectively&langpair=en|en&hl=en&sa=X&ei=nOR-TfmdCc21tgfotPHjCA&sqi=2&ved=0CB8QmwMoAA) definition.

Specifically, 2. is the one that we want which says, "Actually but not officially or explicitly"

Or, here (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/effectively), "For all practical purposes;"

Here are some synonyms: "virtually, really, in fact, essentially, in effect, in reality, in truth, as good as, in actual fact, to all intents and purposes, in all but name, in actuality, for practical purposes".

[SurlySeraph]

Quoting out of context doesn't make your argument stronger.

Calm down. This isn't a fight. I'm trying to understand your interpretation so I can see whether it makes sense or not, not win an argument. Writing out the entire definition right after quoting your post, in which you wrote out the entire definition, seemed like a waste of time.


You are completely ignoring the opening text of the second sentence that reads "unlike other metamagic feats." In context, this means that this sentence is not explaining the first sentence, but rather explaining how Heighten Spell is different than other metamagic feats.

I do not see how you get that from the context. It says that a heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal, then that unlike other metamagic feats it actually increases the effective level of the spell, and then that all effects dependent on spell level are calculated according to the heightened level. I don't see anything there to suggest the third sentence applies to the second sentence but not the first; I don't see how "Unlike other metamagic feats" changes that, since the other core metamagic feats don't say that it's a higher-level spell than normal, only that it uses a higher-level slot than normal.


Since Maximize Spell does not "effectively" change a spell's level, a Maximized Fireball will not penetrate a Globe of Invulnerability. It is still, however, a 6th level spell slot used. Since a Maximized Fireball is, actually, a 6th level spell, but is not "effectively" a 6th level spell, a Sanctum 3rd level spell cast inside the sanctum remains to be a 3rd level spell despite being "effectively" a 4th level spell.

Sanctum spell does not actually change the spell level. It merely makes a spell effectively one level higher or lower, which only governs save DC and ability to penetrate things like globes of invulnerability.

Maximize Spell says "A maximized spell uses up a spell slot three levels higher than the spell’s actual level." It does not say a maximized spell is a higher-level spell, merely that it uses a higher-level slot. Heighten Spell says "A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal"; none of the other core metamagic feats say anything like that. Thus, I don't see where you're getting your argument that a Maximized Fireball is "actually" a 6th-level spell.

It seems that you're saying a spell has an "actual" level that's usually equal to the level of the spell slot it's in, which can differ from its "effective" level, and only this "actual" level matters for PrC entry and the like. Am I understanding your statements correctly?


Qualifying for feats and PrC's does not fall under the bounds of what defines an "effectively level X" spell. Heighten Spell specifically contains text that states the spell is treated "in all ways" as a spell of the higher level. Sanctum Spell does not contain that text, and thus is not treated "in all ways" as a spell of the adjusted effective level.

"Effective" spell level only governs spell level dependent *effects." Qualifying for feats and PrC's is not an effect.

But earlier, you were saying the third sentence of the Heighten Spell text, "All effects dependent on spell level..." applies to effective spell level but not actual spell level. Sanctum Spell does mention effective spell level.

Also, what are your grounds for saying that qualifying for a feat or PrC is not an effect?


Where are you getting the spell slot from?

Probably that Illumian trick. Illumians can get an ability that mimics DMM. Use that + Heighten + Sanctum or Earth Spell for a 10th-level spell slot, and then take the feat Extra Slot, which gives you get a spell slot up to one level lower than the highest-level spell you can cast.

[Elric VIII]

Just wondering about the Sanctum Spell discussion: What about Versatile Spellcaster?

1st level Human Sorcerer with Heighten Spell and Versatile Spellcaster. Can he cast a heightened Magic Missile as a 2nd level spell that is actually 2nd level by applying heighten to it?


Also, for overpowered Wizard stuff:


Spontaneous Divination ACF + Versatile Spellcaster means spontaneous Wizard.

Nexus Method (Dragon 319): Regional feat that allows you to "lose" non-Conjuration spells to spontaneously cast an equivalent Summon Monster X spell.

Uncanny Forethought (EoE): Req Spell Mastery. Leave a number of slots = Int Mod open to spontaneously cast Spell Mastery spells or use a full round action to cast any spell you know at -2CL.

Basically anything that gives a Wizard as much flexibility as a Sorcerer, without the downsides, is powerful.

[Realms of Chaos]

I can't believe that nobody has said it so far so...

Leadership

Is there a reason nobody has said it? Is the feat considered weak nowadays?

[Mystic Muse]

I can't believe that nobody has said it so far so...

Leadership

Is there a reason nobody has said it? Is the feat considered weak nowadays?

Well, there are things that can be considered more broken than it, and the feat is extremely vague on what it actually does. Sure you get a cohort, but it doesn't tell you what level they are, how you produce their stats, or even who it's controlled by.

[The Glyphstone]

Well, there are things that can be considered more broken than it, and the feat is extremely vague on what it actually does. Sure you get a cohort, but it doesn't tell you what level they are, how you produce their stats, or even who it's controlled by.

It does tell you their level, that's the first column on the Leadership chart, determined by your Leadership score (capped at your level -2).

I'd say Leadership hasn't been mentioned yet mainly because it's one of those things people just understand is non-standard. The feat isn't even printed in the PHB, but the DMG; so frequently banned that it's not really worth bringing up except in special circumstances.

[Mystic Muse]

It does tell you their level, that's the first column on the Leadership chart, determined by your Leadership score (capped at your level -2).

the feat says you can attract a cohort up to that level, not that you will.

I may just be reading too much into that part though.

[The Glyphstone]

the feat says you can attract a cohort up to that level, not that you will.

I may just be reading too much into that part though.

technically true, but DM Jerk-semantics of that level are like allowing drowning to heal or monks not being proficient with their fists, and deserve thrown books to the face. If you're not going to allow Leadership, ban it instead of 'allowing' it and giving the player an extra 1st level Follower instead of a cohort.

[Mystic Muse]

technically true, but DM Jerk-semantics of that level are like allowing drowning to heal or monks not being proficient with their fists, and deserve thrown books to the face. If you're not going to allow Leadership, ban it instead of 'allowing' it and giving the player an extra 1st level Follower instead of a cohort.

Things like this are why I want to make my own fix of 3.5

[Grim Reader]

Just wondering about the Sanctum Spell discussion: What about Versatile Spellcaster?

1st level Human Sorcerer with Heighten Spell and Versatile Spellcaster. Can he cast a heightened Magic Missile as a 2nd level spell that is actually 2nd level by applying heighten to it?

Yes.

That was one of the questions on the "Hotly debated topics" thread on Wizards forums just before 4th came out, when the people at Wizards actually sat down to adress some of the questions of the players.

Heighten + Versatile works, also for early entry. That was explicitly stated.

Precocious Apprentice does not.

[Aspenor]

Can you point me to the game rule definition of effectively that agrees with your reading? Otherwise, we need to refer to the dictionary (http://www.google.com/dictionary?q=effectively&langpair=en|en&hl=en&sa=X&ei=nOR-TfmdCc21tgfotPHjCA&sqi=2&ved=0CB8QmwMoAA) definition.

Specifically, 2. is the one that we want which says, "Actually but not officially or explicitly"

Or, here (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/effectively), "For all practical purposes;"

Here are some synonyms: "virtually, really, in fact, essentially, in effect, in reality, in truth, as good as, in actual fact, to all intents and purposes, in all but name, in actuality, for practical purposes".
The definition is in heighten spell. You do not need to bother opening a dictionary, because it is explicitly stated:

All effects dependent on spell level (such as save DCs or the ability to penetrate a minor globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the adjusted level.


Calm down. This isn't a fight. I'm trying to understand your interpretation so I can see whether it makes sense or not, not win an argument. Writing out the entire definition right after quoting your post, in which you wrote out the entire definition, seemed like a waste of time.

I do not see how you get that from the context. It says that a heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal, then that unlike other metamagic feats it actually increases the effective level of the spell, and then that all effects dependent on spell level are calculated according to the heightened level. I don't see anything there to suggest the third sentence applies to the second sentence but not the first; I don't see how "Unlike other metamagic feats" changes that, since the other core metamagic feats don't say that it's a higher-level spell than normal, only that it uses a higher-level slot than normal.
Whether it is actually a higher level spell or just uses a higher level spell slot is irrelevant, really. It was simply a mechanic used to explain how saying "effective spell level" is different than just saying "spell level."


Maximize Spell says "A maximized spell uses up a spell slot three levels higher than the spell’s actual level." It does not say a maximized spell is a higher-level spell, merely that it uses a higher-level slot. Heighten Spell says "A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal"; none of the other core metamagic feats say anything like that. Thus, I don't see where you're getting your argument that a Maximized Fireball is "actually" a 6th-level spell.
Okay, fine.


It seems that you're saying a spell has an "actual" level that's usually equal to the level of the spell slot it's in, which can differ from its "effective" level, and only this "actual" level matters for PrC entry and the like. Am I understanding your statements correctly?
Something like that, but not exactly.


But earlier, you were saying the third sentence of the Heighten Spell text, "All effects dependent on spell level..." applies to effective spell level but not actual spell level. Sanctum Spell does mention effective spell level.
Okay.


Also, what are your grounds for saying that qualifying for a feat or PrC is not an effect?
Because an "effect" is an in-game dynamic, and qualifying for a feat or PrC is a metagame dynamic. By this I mean that "effective" spell level affects things in the game: spell DC's, GoI penetration, etc. Qualification for feats and PrC's is a metagame dynamic: it has no effect on how your character can affect the world around them.