Why is Foresight a 9th Level Spell?

[wayfare]

Its got some useful applications, but it doesn't seem like its really on the level of gate or wish. Do I have a typo, or am I missing some text?

[Flickerdart]

9th level spells come in at the peak of rocket tag. If you don't have it up, you're vulnerable. If you have it up, you know that a moment from now Baddie McKillsYou is going to teleport in and carpet-bomb your face with fireballs, so you have a chance to cast a Quickened spell or trigger a Contingency that will help you avoid that. It's essentially a soft counter to other 9th level spells rather than a threat in itself.

[FMArthur]

It's not really that good for rocket tag protection - you need to dedicate your resources to going first, not to being annihilated to a slightly lesser degree when someone else goes first.

[Jack_Simth]

It's not really that good for rocket tag protection - you need to dedicate your resources to going first, not to being annihilated to a slightly lesser degree when someone else goes first.
Heh, yes - it pairs with Celerity, Wings of Cover, or some other Immediate-action spell to be of good use.

[tyckspoon]

In raw mechanical effect, never being flatfooted is really good, but you need some Immediate action protections to really use it (Wings of Cover is probably one of the best general-purpose spells for that, but you can also just Contigency on a "when I say 'woozlewozzle'"-type trigger.) In fluff, and/or with more permissive DMing?


In addition, the spell gives you a general idea of what action you might take

Is really, really awesome. Strictly speaking, your DM can say 'yes, and that's why you get that +2 insight to AC and Reflex, nothing more.' But if you get warnings like "ceiling is about to collapse, move ten feet left" or "Invisible Wall of Doom, stop walking and cast Dispel Magic instead" (which I suspect is probably how the developers would have run it, given what has been shown in some of the session excerpts/playtesting anecdotes they've left around) it's much more potent.

[Firechanter]

Excuse me, it appears I am not too familiar with English D&D jargon. So I'll seize the opportunity here and ask: what is "rocket tag"? Is it like "playing a game of tag with rockets strapped on your back" or what?

[Dusk Eclipse]

Excuse me, it appears I am not too familiar with English D&D jargon. So I'll seize the opportunity here and ask: what is "rocket tag"? Is it like "playing a game of tag with rockets strapped on your back" or what?

Essentially it means that the whole combat is decided with the initiative roll, the game devolves in who goes first, because the first to move is the first to use his "I win button".

Makes sense?

[The Glyphstone]

Excuse me, it appears I am not too familiar with English D&D jargon. So I'll seize the opportunity here and ask: what is "rocket tag"? Is it like "playing a game of tag with rockets strapped on your back" or what?

It's playing 'tag' with rocket launchers, spawned from various first-person shooters. Basically a game where whoever hits first wins (rocket launchers are usually oneshot kills in said shooter games), so the only thing that matters is going first.

[ffone]

Rocket tag is 'offense exceeds defense so badly that whoever gets the first action probably wins', or, in its milder form, 'trade save or dies until someone rolls a 1'.

I always wondered how the fluff of two enemies with Foresight works. If the DM does the permissive 'you get fluff cues on what's about to happen' interpretation, you maybe could create time paradoxes or self-(un-)fulfilling prophecies.

"Alice, you foresee BoB doing X...okay, so you're gonna do Y?"

"Bob - wait, now that you're foreseeing Y you wouldn't do X, so now why did Alice foresee it and decide to do Y? Okay, now Alice's player is telling me she's not gonna do Y b/c if Bob doesn't do X she can't have foreseen it, and..."

See the end of 'Bill and Ted's Bogus Journey' for an example.

I'm aware there are easy ways to not get into this situation, like interpreting that part of Foresight as pure fluff represented by the other bonuses, all the time or when both sides have it, but it's humorous to think about. The spell to me as the smell of something only thought out for PCs using, and not NPCs at least under the more generous interpretation (whence the DM would have to ask the players what they are about to do, and 'trust' it.)

[lesser_minion]

It only foresees things that directly endanger you, and the advice it gives is how not to die that exact second, not how to make the threat go away altogether.

At least, that's how I understand it.

In essence, if Bob is planning to cast 'Purée opponent into a fine mist' on Alice, Alice would get a warning to cast "Don't Get Puréed into a fine mist". Not a warning to cast Celerity, followed by Time Stop, followed by lots of Delayed Blast Fireballs centred thirty feet NW of her current location.

Note also that the spell tells you that you're in danger and gives you a general idea of what you might do to protect yourself -- it doesn't tell you what the danger is, so there should be no real reason for Alice to respond to the warning by nuking a spot thirty feet to her north-west. And at this level, everyone has Mind Blank, so I'm not convinced she'd be able to discover exactly what the threat is that easily either.

When used by an NPC, I'm not sure how hard it really has to be -- occasionally you might want to edit his turn to include a swift action that he didn't use when you were taking the turn, and he might be better informed with his immediates (e.g. using a counterspell instead of Wings of Cover when dealing with a no-LoE spell).

[MeeposFire]

Rocket tag is 'offense exceeds defense so badly that whoever gets the first action probably wins', or, in its milder form, 'trade save or dies until someone rolls a 1'.




Well it does not have to be SoD. You get a similar situation (though easier to counter) using super charger builds. Generally monsters do not have the HP to take round from a supercharger so if you have a supercharger involved you either have to have killed him first (thus continuing rocket tag) or have a counter (in which case you nullified the rocket). There are a lot more rockets than SoDs.

[navar100]

What is often unrealized about the spell is something beyond the game mechanics of bonuses. You are told something about the impending danger. You have 1 round to do something to avoid, stop, or mitigate the danger.

[wayfare]

What is often unrealized about the spell is something beyond the game mechanics of bonuses. You are told something about the impending danger. You have 1 round to do something to avoid, stop, or mitigate the danger.

See, the SRD wording of it is pretty vague...the mechanical effects slide into the fluff without transition, its hard to differentiate between the two. That said, I trust the consensus -- without that warning, this couldn't be a 9th level spell.

Thanks for the help, all!

[ericgrau]

You're always ready, without taking an action. It's a good spell. Probably a bad choice for your only 9th level spell, but it's the best secondary choice to back you up.

Reminds me of another game where "sixth sense" was the best special ability you could pick by far. It solved almost everything plot/etc. related. As a partial example most foes don't announce their presence.

[ffone]

Also - not that it did or should factor in the balance/design of Foresight - I believe it's eligible for Persisting (nonepic via incantatrix instant metamagic, or a DMM cleric with the Knowledge domain). Or even Extending it (with a rod, maybe) will last a good slice of a day at that CL.

[Firechanter]

Rocket tag is 'offense exceeds defense so badly that whoever gets the first action probably wins', or, in its milder form, 'trade save or dies until someone rolls a 1'.

Thanks for the explanations, everyone!
So I guess that's why I haven't heard the term before; I don't play first person shooters because I suck at them. ^^

[Killer Angel]

What is often unrealized about the spell is something beyond the game mechanics of bonuses. You are told something about the impending danger. You have 1 round to do something to avoid, stop, or mitigate the danger.

Sadly, what you'll know, is in the hand of the DM, so the results are uncertain.
Obviously, if you're a specialist diviner, it's a good spell to pick as bonus. :smallwink:

[Eldariel]

The key part in Rocket Tag is "If you're hit, you're dead." Rocket Launchers generally have really slow projectiles making hitting with them in long range very difficult, but they're still so effective that you prefer them to other weapons.

The parallel carries over quite well; higher level D&D is very close to Rocket Tag in that generally landing a telling blow is lethal, but there are so very many different defensive abilities far as casters go that actually going through the motions is very complex indeed.


Many people say level 20 combat in D&D is about initiative roll, but that's really not true; the first few turns get kinda muddled up because of Celerity-proxies anyways, and the passive countermagic and warding spells negate the first actions extremely effectively returning the game more to a battle of wits to actually land that rocket for the win.

Save-or-die is a terrible choice generally, since they offer a save which is easy to make unfailable, or just be immune to the effect. Generally we're talking about either stripping or bypassing the magical protections before you can actually take offensive action.

[Eldan]

Yes... high level D&D increasingly turns into a game about layering on absolute defences on a character.

Freedom of Movement, Mind Blank, Death Ward (or Soulfire), immune creature types, immunities to specific spells from Rings and so on...

However, the game becomes Rocket Tag again if you take into consideration that the first person to be hit by Disjunction or a similar effect is out of the fight as there's no real chance of bringing all your defences back up before the next spell kills you.

[Curmudgeon]

Why is Foresight a 9th Level Spell?

Apparently because you're not playing a Cleric with the Time domain.

[Yora]

Halfway through this thread I wondered why I'm actually reading all this?
High level D&D is a very insane game. :smallbiggrin:

[Killer Angel]

Halfway through this thread I wondered why I'm actually reading all this?
High level D&D is a very insane game. :smallbiggrin:

It's a very insane game, enjoyed by insane peoples. That's why you'd read all this. :smalltongue:

[Eldan]

And that's why I love to play and hate to DM it. :smallwink:

[Yora]

Thanks, but I rather stay in the somewhat sane parts of low-level with it's glitterdust and grease. :smallbiggrin:

[Eldan]

Which is where I usually DM. For exactly that reason, too.

But there's just something satisfying about building absurdly high-level characters.

[Killer Angel]

Thanks, but I rather stay in the somewhat sane parts of low-level with it's glitterdust and grease. :smallbiggrin:

E6 FTW? :smallwink:

But yeah, my funniest campaigns, stops around lev. max 12-14.

[ken-do-nim]

Of course, any DM worth his salt is supposed to tell the player, "Your spider sense is tingling."

re: Rocket Tag, that's why my favorite spell is project image, that way I can be in the fight without being in the fight. I usually use greater invisibility with it, and get that point source projected image.

[Firechanter]

I always say the high levels also want to be played. But I know it can really be a pain, especially for the DM.

What I'd like to have is a D&D version with high levels and magic and all, but so nerfed that it doesn't go over the top so much and remains more manageable. Many people I know refuse to play high level D&D because they feel the game comes apart at level 15 at the latest. :(

BTW, I think /Project Image/ is a pretty expensive way to show your enemy where you aren't, given it's a level 7 spell and only has a duration of rounds, and you need an Improved Invis on top of it.
/Mislead/ does pretty much the same rolled into one and is only level 6 (no, I don't see the logic in that). And if you're really cheap, you can squeeze by with Mirror Image, a level 2 spell.

[ken-do-nim]

I always say the high levels also want to be played. But I know it can really be a pain, especially for the DM.

What I'd like to have is a D&D version with high levels and magic and all, but so nerfed that it doesn't go over the top so much and remains more manageable. Many people I know refuse to play high level D&D because they feel the game comes apart at level 15 at the latest. :(


High level AD&D is awesome. Of course, instead of 'rocket tag' it becomes a game of hit the caster/use up his stoneskins before he completes his spell. The whole mechanic that even 1 point of damage that gets through is enough to disrupt a spell makes everyone's contribution critically important.



BTW, I think /Project Image/ is a pretty expensive way to show your enemy where you aren't, given it's a level 7 spell and only has a duration of rounds, and you need an Improved Invis on top of it.
/Mislead/ does pretty much the same rolled into one and is only level 6 (no, I don't see the logic in that). And if you're really cheap, you can squeeze by with Mirror Image, a level 2 spell.

You need to re-read project image. You can both see through the image and have your spells emanate from it. You can be safely around the corner and do battle with the enemy. You'll see what I mean if your DM ever uses it against you.

[Roderick_BR]

It only foresees things that directly endanger you, and the advice it gives is how not to die that exact second, not how to make the threat go away altogether.

At least, that's how I understand it.

In essence, if Bob is planning to cast 'Purée opponent into a fine mist' on Alice, Alice would get a warning to cast "Don't Get Puréed into a fine mist". Not a warning to cast Celerity, followed by Time Stop, followed by lots of Delayed Blast Fireballs centred thirty feet NW of her current location.

Note also that the spell tells you that you're in danger and gives you a general idea of what you might do to protect yourself -- it doesn't tell you what the danger is, so there should be no real reason for Alice to respond to the warning by nuking a spot thirty feet to her north-west. And at this level, everyone has Mind Blank, so I'm not convinced she'd be able to discover exactly what the threat is that easily either.

When used by an NPC, I'm not sure how hard it really has to be -- occasionally you might want to edit his turn to include a swift action that he didn't use when you were taking the turn, and he might be better informed with his immediates (e.g. using a counterspell instead of Wings of Cover when dealing with a no-LoE spell).
In other words, it gives you a Spider-Sense. Many times he said that it just tell him he's in danger, not what it is. He barely gets an idea of where it comes from, making him instinctivelly jump to the opposite direction.

[nedz]

I always say the high levels also want to be played. But I know it can really be a pain, especially for the DM.

What I'd like to have is a D&D version with high levels and magic and all, but so nerfed that it doesn't go over the top so much and remains more manageable. Many people I know refuse to play high level D&D because they feel the game comes apart at level 15 at the latest. :(

BTW, I think /Project Image/ is a pretty expensive way to show your enemy where you aren't, given it's a level 7 spell and only has a duration of rounds, and you need an Improved Invis on top of it.
/Mislead/ does pretty much the same rolled into one and is only level 6 (no, I don't see the logic in that). And if you're really cheap, you can squeeze by with Mirror Image, a level 2 spell.
None of these work at this level generally. Everyone has trueseeing, unless the're being cheap and relying on herd immunity.

[The Glyphstone]

None of these work at this level generally. Everyone has trueseeing, unless the're being cheap and relying on herd immunity.

Project Image stiill works to a point - it's no good for misdirection vs. True Seeing, but even if they know your Image is fake, they still need to be able to find/see you.

[nedz]

Project Image stiill works to a point - it's no good for misdirection vs. True Seeing, but even if they know your Image is fake, they still need to be able to find/see you.

Yes - I was really refering to the other options given; however its quite easy to block line of effect - if you know whats going on.

[Firechanter]

You need to re-read project image. You can both see through the image and have your spells emanate from it. You can be safely around the corner and do battle with the enemy. You'll see what I mean if your DM ever uses it against you.

Oh indeed, I hadn't realized that. Cool beans.

[Doug Lampert]

High level AD&D is awesome. Of course, instead of 'rocket tag' it becomes a game of hit the caster/use up his stoneskins before he completes his spell. The whole mechanic that even 1 point of damage that gets through is enough to disrupt a spell makes everyone's contribution critically important.

Uhmm, what edition are you playing? It sure ISN'T a 3.x mechanic!

1 point of damage is a DC 11 concentration check.

AKA can't possibly fail for an almost completely unoptimized level 5+ caster. (14 Con, 8 ranks, done.) A character who actually cares takes Skill Focus Concentration and at level 2 has a +10 modifier and NEVER misses his concentration against a 1 HP damage.

DougL

[Firechanter]

He said AD&D.
Been too long since I played that, though, can't remember.

[ken-do-nim]

He said AD&D.
Been too long since I played that, though, can't remember.

Yup, I brought that up in reference to:



What I'd like to have is a D&D version with high levels and magic and all, but so nerfed that it doesn't go over the top so much and remains more manageable. Many people I know refuse to play high level D&D because they feel the game comes apart at level 15 at the latest. :(

[ken-do-nim]

Yes - I was really refering to the other options given; however its quite easy to block line of effect - if you know whats going on.

The if can be a biggy, because it is a will save, and a lot of otherwise really tough opponents don't have great will saves, and may never figure out what is going on.

[Doc Roc]

The if can be a biggy, because it is a will save, and a lot of otherwise really tough opponents don't have great will saves, and may never figure out what is going on.

If you don't have true-seeing at that level, you deserve to perish in silence, crushed by the grim might of a magister's will.

[nyarlathotep]

Uhmm, what edition are you playing? It sure ISN'T a 3.x mechanic!

1 point of damage is a DC 11 concentration check.

AKA can't possibly fail for an almost completely unoptimized level 5+ caster. (14 Con, 8 ranks, done.) A character who actually cares takes Skill Focus Concentration and at level 2 has a +10 modifier and NEVER misses his concentration against a 1 HP damage.

DougL

Well considering he was explicitly stating AD&D and was comparing it favorably to 3.5 I would guess he's playing... wait for it... AD&D!!! I know my deductive skills amaze me sometimes too. :smallcool:

[MeeposFire]

High level AD&D is awesome. Of course, instead of 'rocket tag' it becomes a game of hit the caster/use up his stoneskins before he completes his spell. The whole mechanic that even 1 point of damage that gets through is enough to disrupt a spell makes everyone's contribution critically important.



Actually, at least in 2nd ed AD&D, "if a spellcaster is struck by a weapon or fails a saving throw before the spell is cast, the caster's concentration is disrupted" (pg 111 of the 2nd ed PHB).

So you do not need to inflict one point of damage you just have to hit them (even if it deals no damage against your stone skin you were certainly "struck" by the weapon). So it was MUCH easier to disrupt spellcasting in 2e.

[wayfare]

Actually, at least in 2nd ed AD&D, "if a spellcaster is struck by a weapon or fails a saving throw before the spell is cast, the caster's concentration is disrupted" (pg 111 of the 2nd ed PHB).

So you do not need to inflict one point of damage you just have to hit them (even if it deals no damage against your stone skin you were certainly "struck" by the weapon). So it was MUCH easier to disrupt spellcasting in 2e.

Ah, those were the days...

I always likes the reasoning there: if a spell involves gestures, messing them up a bit will probably just ruin your spell. Getting thwacked by a mace just wasn't in the wizard playbook back in the day.

[MeeposFire]

Yea, spellcasters were still more powerful back then but they were not as powerful relative to the warrior classes as they are in 3e.

[ken-do-nim]

Actually, at least in 2nd ed AD&D, "if a spellcaster is struck by a weapon or fails a saving throw before the spell is cast, the caster's concentration is disrupted" (pg 111 of the 2nd ed PHB).

So you do not need to inflict one point of damage you just have to hit them (even if it deals no damage against your stone skin you were certainly "struck" by the weapon). So it was MUCH easier to disrupt spellcasting in 2e.

I thing it is supposed to be takes damage. Here is the wording from the 1E DMG:

Any successful attack, or non-saved-against attack upon the spell caster interrupts the spell.

I personally wouldn't call an attack successful if it is absorbed by the stoneskin. Furthermore, even if the caster is hit by a fireball, as long as he makes his save he keeps his concentration, so just taking damage won't necessarily disrupt concentration.

You always have to keep in mind that with 2E, though it is compatible with 1E, they did not have access to the original author(s) of the game and ended up with all sorts of unintended rulings. Another is globe of invulnerability not being mobile. That's not what Gary intended, though in 1E it isn't spelled out that it can move. (I asked his son, btw).

[MeeposFire]

Well I would call hitting a successful attack. Damage is separate by what I would read.

Second even if it did operate like that in 1e in 2e they did not write damage in the the book and that would have been easy to do. They could have simply decided that hitting was enough rather than damage (since getting bashed around or grappled can throw off your concentration even if it does not hurt).

Perhaps it is supposed to be that way but I can only take your word on it since that is not what is written (besides its not like casters need any more help even in AD&D and this gives them a vulnerability that warriors can exploit and can help defend against).

[ken-do-nim]

Well I would call hitting a successful attack. Damage is separate by what I would read.

Second even if it did operate like that in 1e in 2e they did not write damage in the the book and that would have been easy to do. They could have simply decided that hitting was enough rather than damage (since getting bashed around or grappled can throw off your concentration even if it does not hurt).

Perhaps it is supposed to be that way but I can only take your word on it since that is not what is written (besides its not like casters need any more help even in AD&D and this gives them a vulnerability that warriors can exploit and can help defend against).

Hey there, just wanted to finish off this conversation. We were discussing spell disruption in AD&D, and 1E calls for a successful attack to do it whereas 2E simply uses the word 'struck', but in either case the text for stoneskin in both editions talks about the recipient gaining virtual immunity to an attack, and goes on to talk about the attack having no effect on the protected individual save to dispel the dweomer. So that's pretty clear, I think.

Edit: I've played a lot of AD&D, more 1E than 2E but still plenty of both and have never met a DM who allowed a spell to be disrupted by a weapon hit when the caster is protected by stoneskin.