Swordsage/Rogue q's.

[vageta31]

I'm playing a level 1 rogue right now and I'm already planning on multiclassing him with some sort of swordsage/fighter levels. After my first two sessions and seeing how my group is, it's making me want to do this even more, maybe even completely switching to another class with only enough Rogue to pick up the 2D6 SA damage, evasion, penetrating strike ACF and extra skills.

With that said I'm wondering how important the WIS is for a swordsage multiclass. My stats are as follows(DM was a stickler for the 4d6 method, no point buy):

Str 14
Dex 17
Int 15
Con 15
Wis 7
Cha 9

I took wis as the lowest since I wanted to be able have some ability to interact with NPCs and was planning on getting some resistance items to help out. So I guess it boils down to this; Can I be an effective swordsage with the low wisdom? Or does the SS need the Wis to AC bonus to make him effective? Not to mention insightful strike, though that only seems to help on actual striking manuevers, not regular melee attacks.

I'm considering speaking with my DM about rebuilding this guy since we just started. My guy has had a horrible run of whiffed attacks since I don't have weapon finesse yet, even the DM has commented on my bad luck. Background story was that he had been trained in agility and swordsmanship from a young age, but not yet had the chance to actually use them real world. I can RP that he became frustrated at his uselessness and has rethought his entire motives for adventuring. He is obviously a bit naive, compounded by his low wisdom score, and I'm thinking maybe a side quest could help fix this if DM goes along. (One of the guys' in the groups wife is having a baby soon and we may have a couple of weeks of no group, where maybe I can squeeze this in with DM on a night or two).

I could wander around looking for a swordmaster and ultimately find a swordsage. He could teach me a bit about the swordsage path and my character can meditate and reflect on his training and give a valid reason to shift his stats around. Through the training with SS and meditation he could theoretically gain wisdom and give up something else. I was thinking dropping STR, upping WIS though I can't do 7 str. Maybe I could get him to let me swap the entire WIS/CHA/STR around to drop my cha to 7, str to 9 and wis up to 14. Or.. since I don't plan on taking any combat expertise and only taking a few levels of rogue perhaps my INT could swap directly with WIS? I'm not sure how important INT is other than skill points...

Assuming DM went along, would this be a valid option? Or can I still play an effective SS without the extra wis and keep current stats the same? The SS gets will saves so will make up for my penalty, and ultimately will only be missing out on AC bonus and insightful strike which seems fluff at best.

Or if I want to go this character path, should I just try to retire my rogue completely and start a new guy(if DM permits)? My only worry is my luck with the dice lately is horrid, and I could easily roll worse stats than I have. Other than the 7/9 throwaways I'm actually doing pretty good.

One more thing. This is in forgotten realms campaign setting, though the DM didn't have his books at the time we started our first session. There are some regional feats in the book I'm interested in and I'm thinking if I get to retrain a bit I can drop my point blank shot(my SS will eschew all benefits of range fighting for prowess in melee anyways) and pick up one of the FR feats. There's one that gives +2 ac bonus when fighting with two swords and I have TWF. Could help makeup for the low wis if I can't change.

[Talbot]

See if he'll let you take Kung Fu Genius (be sure to agree on whether or not it applies to Wis-based save DCs for maneuvers), and you can just use your Int. Shouldn't be too game-breaking, as your Will save still stinks.

[PollyOliver]

If the kung fu genius thing doesn't work, you can still be effective with low wisdom. It's not ideal, because it would help your AC, but you have a good will save, and even if you didn't the first level maneuver moment of perfect mind will let you substitute a concentration check (CON) for your will save as an immediate action.

Even for AC, you can actually occasionally use counters to prevent attacks. I think there's a setting sun counter that lets you substitute a sense motive check for armor class, and another that counters charges, which should help you until you've got more HP. Armor class scales so badly anyway that having 2 less at level 15 isn't going to be a deal-breaker.

But, you can get away with dumping strength--just not to the tune of 7, if you want to be able to carry anything. If you take the shadow blade feat, you get dex to damage when using shadow hand weapons in a shadow hand stance--say, daggers or short swords in assassin's stance, which gives you +2d6 sneak attack.

The other thing is, if you're really set on swordsage as a long-term path and not just a dip, you might want to consider rebuilding to take your first level as a swordsage. It's not vital by any means, but it could save you some frustration. Swordsages have a really awful maneuver recovery method (full round action to recover 1), so if you're planning on regularly using your boosts (and you should if you're a two-weapon fighter, as some are quite fantastic), you want a feat called adaptive style, which is only available at swordsage level 1, and lets you change all your maneuvers as a full round action. Again, it's not necessary by any means, but it's helpful for fights that last more than three or so rounds.

[vageta31]

Yes following the shadow hand/shadow blade path is what I was intending to do. However I didn't understand the rules of adaptive style as having to take it AT first level, only that you had to be at least first level. Or worst case I had to take it ON first level swordsage which just meant I'd wait till level 3 then grab it as the feat...

I always thought taking 1st level rogue with high int was the best method since you get a load of extra skill points. Actually 1st level Rogue w/able learner would be ideal. Then I could still keep up some skill monkey stuff with swordsage later down the road. Swordsage with UMD would probably be pretty cool, though the low cha would make it somewhat less useful.

[tyckspoon]

Yes following the shadow hand/shadow blade path is what I was intending to do. However I didn't understand the rules of adaptive style as having to take it AT first level, only that you had to be at least first level. Or worst case I had to take it ON first level swordsage which just meant I'd wait till level 3 then grab it as the feat...


Your interpretation is correct. It merely requires that you have at least one level in one of the Initiator base classes. I don't know why people get stuck on this one- you never see people suggesting that you can only take Weapon Focus or Weapon Finesse while your BAB is +1, or stating that the only time you can ever take Weapon Specializiation is exactly at Fighter 4.. unless the feat actually says "you may only select this as your 1st level feat", the prereqs are minimums, not exact requirements. Just add 'or greater' to all numerical prereqs, you'll be a lot saner.

[PollyOliver]

Yes following the shadow hand/shadow blade path is what I was intending to do. However I didn't understand the rules of adaptive style as having to take it AT first level, only that you had to be at least first level. Or worst case I had to take it ON first level swordsage which just meant I'd wait till level 3 then grab it as the feat...

I always thought taking 1st level rogue with high int was the best method since you get a load of extra skill points. Actually 1st level Rogue w/able learner would be ideal. Then I could still keep up some skill monkey stuff with swordsage later down the road. Swordsage with UMD would probably be pretty cool, though the low cha would make it somewhat less useful.

My group interprets it as only at 1st level of warblade/swordsage/crusader, but I think you're right. I don't think I've ever bothered to confirm, because it's useful enough that we wanted it at that level anyway. Now that I look at it again, though, it does look like you should be right; it says 1st, not 1st only. Whoops. :smallsmile:

Tykspoon: I think it's because there are some feats that are first level only, and most feats I've seen don't have level requirements but rather indirect requirements, like bab or whatever. So when we saw 1st, I guess we all just figured it was a first level feat, and since everyone wanted it right away anyway... Alas, I will be brining this up with the DM.

[Warlawk]

My group interprets it as only at 1st level of warblade/swordsage/crusader, but I think you're right. I don't think I've ever bothered to confirm, because it's useful enough that we wanted it at that level anyway. Now that I look at it again, though, it does look like you should be right; it says 1st, not 1st only. Whoops. :smallsmile:

Tykspoon: I think it's because there are some feats that are first level only, and most feats I've seen don't have level requirements but rather indirect requirements, like bab or whatever. So when we saw 1st, I guess we all just figured it was a first level feat, and since everyone wanted it right away anyway... Alas, I will be brining this up with the DM.

A telling point for this is weapon specialization. Just point out that it would mean fighters can ONLY select weapon specialization at level 4. No one I know has ever played it that way, it just doesn't make sense. The way adaptive style was written game me pause on first reading for exactly that reason, but I really don't think that's what it was written to mean, and the text used only indicates that swordsage 1 is a requirement, so as long as you are swordsage at least level 1, you would qualify.

[PollyOliver]

A telling point for this is weapon specialization. Just point out that it would mean fighters can ONLY select weapon specialization at level 4. No one I know has ever played it that way, it just doesn't make sense. The way adaptive style was written game me pause on first reading for exactly that reason, but I really don't think that's what it was written to mean, and the text used only indicates that swordsage 1 is a requirement, so as long as you are swordsage at least level 1, you would qualify.

Yeah, I definitely agree with you upon re-reading it; it just never occurred to me before. Whoops. :smallsmile:

[vageta31]

I read up on kung fu genius and I think it's a possibility. It makes sense seeing as a swordsage is sort of an armed monk, they even can take an unarmed variant. It's not all that over-powered considering it only would help my swordsage specific bonuses(AC/strike damage) but I'd still have the weak save. Though I can help fix that with the mind over matter maneuver :P At any rate I'd get to keep my high INT and use it for more skill points and skill checks and the only negative is the will saves which I can bypass and boost with items. Would actually work out really good if he goes for it.

Thanks for the idea, this is probably my best bet. When I go swordsage I could probably retrain my "point blank shot" I took at level one with kung fu genius and then take adaptable style at level 3 and be good to go. So assuming he goes for this I only have one more issue.. getting weapon finesse soon. I took TWF and PBS at level one. Was planning on going swashbuckler at level 2 for weapon finesse(original plan was to do daring outlaw), but now that wouldn't be a good move. I could easily take fighter at level 2 and get weapon finesse as my bonus feat, then do the retraining of kung fu genius at level 3 when I take swordsage.

Hmm options..

1) Rogue (TWF, PBS) SA +1D6
2)Fighter (bonus weapon finesse)
3)swordsage (adaptive style), [retrain PBS to kung fu genius.]

Then continue on swordsage and relying on assassin stance to give me +3d6 SA for my career....

Or..

1) Rogue (TWF, PBS) SA +1D6
2)Hit and Run Fighter variant (bonus weapon finesse)(combat initiative +2, dex to damage on flat footed opponents)
3)swordsage (adaptive style), [retrain PBS to kung fu genius.]

Only thing is I feel that hit and run fighter is probably drow only. Some say it isn't, but my reading of the text seems it is and I'd have to convince DM. I love the idea since I'll never use heavy or medium armor or shields. The +2 initiative plus quick to act and high dex is basically a free improved initiative feat. Guess I could try to find a drow to teach me, or a stretch.. someone who knows that learned from a drow hehe.


Anyways if this pans out and I go rogue/fighter/swordsage, how much rogue should I take? I get evasion at level 2, and uncanny dodge at level 4. If I take 2 levels I'd get improved evasion with SS down the road. 3 levels gives me an extra +1d6 SA. Uncanny dodge is nice, but is it worth it as it cuts into my SS levels? Sneak fighter variant class + hit and run ACF would be awesome, and give me 1d6 SA AND the initiative and dex to SA until I get shadow blade. But I'd lose the bonus feats and not be able to finesse yet.

How about:

1) Rogue (TWF, PBS) SA +1D6 (combat reflexes[forgot DM gave this to me for free])
2)Fighter [hit and run if I can convince DM] (bonus weapon finesse)
3)swordsage (adaptive style), [retrain PBS to kung fu genius.]
5)Rogue (evasion)
6)swordsage (shadow blade) Wis(Int) to Bonus AC
7)Rogue (2d6 SA), penetrating strike ACF
8)Swordsage (high enough level to take assassin stance)
9-xx)Swordsage

Netting me +4d6 in assassin stance the rest of my career, but using maneuvers to actually let me get the SA opportunity more than a pure rogue would. It probably evens out. Add in craven at level 9 and that's some nice damage for only 3 rogue levels. Take gloom razor at level 12 to make that happen even more.

Sorry it went long but I'm really trying to number crunch this :P How truly important would evasion and 1d6 SA be down the road? I could just take the one rogue, 2 fighter levels for 2 extra feats(I really like quick draw) and then go pure swordsage. If I get my wis to AC bonus I could easily add a point to Int at lvl 8 making it +3(lvl 4 goes to dex to put me at +4). The 1d6 SA loss is minimal with assassin stance capability, and I would get evasion at some point.

What do you guys think?

[vageta31]

One more idea! :P

Swashbuckler at level 2 to get weapon finesse for free and get ACF arcane stunt; blur/expeditious retreat(blur for gloom razor or exp. retreat swift action move 3x per day). Then one level of the hit and run fighter to pick up a free bonus feat. If I only go rogue 1 I get no exp penalty for the 3 classes and go pure swordsage from there on out. If DM doesn't care about exp I can do two more rogue levels later if I wanted. Just seems the swordsage brings enough to the table to lose the 2 rogue levels.

[begooler]

Maybe don't do both the swashbuckler and fighter dip, just take the one level of swashbuckler. You're right that it's better than fighter for your build, because it gives you the bonus feat you want and then some. I don't think the additional dip into fighter really helps you, unless there's a specific feat you're dying for.

If the build works out such that you have one less rogue level than you need for another SA die, you can take Daring Outlaw- if you can persuade your DM to let use your ACF to replace the 'grace+1' requirement and let the feat stack your ACF instead of grace.

Then take a total of 2 levels of rogue (so you can get evasion) X levels of swashbuckler, and X levels of swordsage. Space your levels out so that when you take a swordsage level your initiator level has been raised sufficiently to give you the next level of maneuver.

[Andion Isurand]

I would highly recommend taking the Keen Intellect feat (from Oriental Adventures 3.5 as updated in Dragon 318) as your first level only feat.

With that feat, you may use your Intelligence modifier instead of your Wisdom modifier for Will Saves, as well as for Heal, Sense Motive, Spot and Survival checks. It will

[vageta31]

If I remember Keen Intellect was some sort of regional feat.. Taking kung fu genius is already pushing it, Keen intellect is probably not going to happen as we're in FR campaign and I'm surely not oriental :P. I had already considered it when deciding whether or not to use wis as my throwaway stat but figured it was going to fail.

Regarding daring outlaw.. I'd have to take Rogue 2, then swash odd levels to make it most efficient. Then I'd lose out on penetrating strike(rogue 3). And it'd burn up a feat just to get an extra SA die... And yes I'd considered the grace +1 problem already and had mentioned it to him. The whole idea of swash/rogue was to give me some cool stuff to do in encounters instead of just being a squishy rogue. Then I discovered swordsage and realized it was already done for me :) However there is one thing I get at swash 3, insightful strike(strange they share the same name) and would get my int bonus to any and all damage with no restrictions which IS nice. Which brings up my next question... Shadow blade says nothing about "replacing" str damage bonus with dex, so is it possible to get normal str to damage, dex to damage with shadow blade, int to damage with insightful strike AND wis to strike damage with SS insightful strike? Taking swash 3, rogue 2 and then SS to fill it out could be nice. It's going to come down to what helps my guy out most.. the 2 fighter bonus feats I "could" get, or the weapon finesse/acf/insightful strike of the swash. Or just a little of both...

In the end it does seem like I'd do best to delay my 2nd level of swordsage until I get 5th initiator level. Or else I have to wait quite a bit to get assassin stance. As you said staggering them out gives me a better options for maneuver and stance choices.

[begooler]

Shadowblade adds your dex, in addition to anything else you would already add, as I understand.

As far as the second level of swordsage goes- you get another stance at that level, and you don't get another one for several levels. Boosting your IL before you take it makes sense, unless you end up burning so many levels that you would have gotten your third stance anyway.

[PollyOliver]

If I remember Keen Intellect was some sort of regional feat.. Taking kung fu genius is already pushing it, Keen intellect is probably not going to happen as we're in FR campaign and I'm surely not oriental :P. I had already considered it when deciding whether or not to use wis as my throwaway stat but figured it was going to fail.

Regarding daring outlaw.. I'd have to take Rogue 2, then swash odd levels to make it most efficient. Then I'd lose out on penetrating strike(rogue 3). And it'd burn up a feat just to get an extra SA die... And yes I'd considered the grace +1 problem already and had mentioned it to him. The whole idea of swash/rogue was to give me some cool stuff to do in encounters instead of just being a squishy rogue. Then I discovered swordsage and realized it was already done for me :) However there is one thing I get at swash 3, insightful strike(strange they share the same name) and would get my int bonus to any and all damage with no restrictions which IS nice. Which brings up my next question... Shadow blade says nothing about "replacing" str damage bonus with dex, so is it possible to get normal str to damage, dex to damage with shadow blade, int to damage with insightful strike AND wis to strike damage with SS insightful strike? Taking swash 3, rogue 2 and then SS to fill it out could be nice. It's going to come down to what helps my guy out most.. the 2 fighter bonus feats I "could" get, or the weapon finesse/acf/insightful strike of the swash. Or just a little of both...

In the end it does seem like I'd do best to delay my 2nd level of swordsage until I get 5th initiator level. Or else I have to wait quite a bit to get assassin stance. As you said staggering them out gives me a better options for maneuver and stance choices.


Eta: nevermind.

[Andion Isurand]

If I remember Keen Intellect was some sort of regional feat.. Taking kung fu genius is already pushing it, Keen intellect is probably not going to happen as we're in FR campaign and I'm surely not oriental :P. I had already considered it when deciding whether or not to use wis as my throwaway stat but figured it was going to fail.

"Any character can choose an ancestor feat, but only at 1st level. No character can have more than one ancestor feat." (Dragon Magazine 318, pg. 37)

The only thing holding you back is the "setting/source" in which the feat happens to appear, as the text makes no prohibition against those who are not native to Rokugan from taking an ancestor feat.

[Darrin]

Taking kung fu genius is already pushing it, Keen intellect is probably not going to happen as we're in FR campaign and I'm surely not oriental :P.


If you're in FR, then Carmendine Monk (Champions of Valor p. 105) is probably a more acceptable version of Kung Fu Genius, but this assumes that the Zealots of the Written Word are open to non-monks (I can't imagine that Unarmed Swordsage would be a really hard sell, though).



In the end it does seem like I'd do best to delay my 2nd level of swordsage until I get 5th initiator level. Or else I have to wait quite a bit to get assassin stance. As you said staggering them out gives me a better options for maneuver and stance choices.

Taking Swordsage 1 at ECL 5 gets you Island of Blades and 2nd level maneuvers (hello, Cloak of Shadows!). If you can wait to take Swordsage 2 until ECL 8, this gets you Assassin's Stance and a 3rd level maneuver.

[MeeposFire]

Taking Swordsage 1 at ECL 5 gets you Island of Blades and 2nd level maneuvers (hello, Cloak of Shadows!). If you can wait to take Swordsage 2 until ECL 8, this gets you Assassin's Stance and a 3rd level maneuver.

Unless I am mistaking what you are saying you can't take a 3rd level stance at level one of swordsage. Under stances it says specifically that you pick a 1st level stance in contrast to the maneuvers section which says you can take any maneuver of any level that you qualify for.

[PollyOliver]

Unless I am mistaking what you are saying you can't take a 3rd level stance at level one of swordsage. Under stances it says specifically that you pick a 1st level stance in contrast to the maneuvers section which says you can take any maneuver of any level that you qualify for.

You'd be taking a first level stance (island of blades) at the first level (ECL 5) and the third level stance (assassin's stance) at the second (ECL 8).

[MeeposFire]

Missed that part. I though that it was another idea to get high level stances with the first level of swordsage which is a common mistake.