Civilization -fire = ?

[Admiral Squish]

So, I was thinking about underwater civilizations and how they would work, and I realized i have NO IDEA how you would get anything more advanced than a loose, tribal society without fire. No cooked food, no metalworking, no glass, nothing to keep the predators at bay, no light at night... I have no idea how they would even GET to a tribal level of civilization.

[Worlok]

Well, you could probably work something out with bioluminescence and heat sources such as Black Smokers and whatnot, but apart from that, that is part of the reason why underwater civilisations tend to be fantasy, rather than reality. Interesting thought, though. :smallsmile:

[The Rose Dragon]

There are alternates not involving fire to all of those (most of them are electricity, though). Cooked food and metalworking only require heat, not fire, and depending on the depth, the civilization likely adapted to the little light there is or does not even need visual data.

[kestrel404]

Most aquatic civilizations (in both Sci-fi and fantasy settings) rely heavily on:
Bio-engineering and 'living tech'
Psionics
Advanced forms of chemistry

If you want the closest D&D equivalent of a race well suited to aquatic civilization, look no further than the Illithid - none of their 'tech' relies on any kind of combustion, they use specialized servant races for everything, and they've got plenty of unknowable/eldritch power. Take away that all of their slaves have to be sentient and that they eat people, and you've got yourself a fairly generic aquatic civilization.

[shadmere]

Did they evolve underwater or move underwater from a previously land-based civilization?

If the second, then they could know of fire from their past. Perhaps they have a group of people who risk the dangers of the surface to build fire and forge steel. It could be a profession or even something like a priesthood.

If the first, then you have to be more creative. The food isn't a big problem; just don't have them cook food. They eat it raw. They might mix it with other things, but they don't apply heat. They could use certain plants to repel predators. The plants could either glow or they could emit some sort of noxious substance that predators dislike. The metalworking and such would be difficult. Unless they found a way to use deep volcanic vents for heat in such a way (while protecting their own bodies), I'm not sure how they could do that.

Or you could just have it be magic. They have sorcerers or witches whose purpose is to heat metal to forging temperatures, or spin glass out of sand.

[Erom]

Tribal is probably sustainable, so long as the species can eat something in their environment raw (Even humans can survive on an uncooked diet as long as they stick to plant matter.) You don't need metalworking to have weapons (spears are traditional underwater weapons for a reason) or even fairly sophisticated material working (leather, cloth, bone, wood, even some stoneworking). You might want to look to Inuit culture for some ideas - they had very little metalworking and still did alright. A warm-water culture wouldn't need fire for warmth or food, so there you go. Sort of Inuit-meets-Polynesian.

On the other hand, I agree with you that progressing beyond Tribal civilization requires some way to manipulate larger amounts of energy, and there just aren't many realistic ways to do that underwater. It seems like to me they would either be very highly magical, or not develop past the tribal stage.

[Yora]

Well, you could probably work something out with bioluminescence and heat sources such as Black Smokers and whatnot, but apart from that, that is part of the reason why underwater civilisations tend to be fantasy, rather than reality. Interesting thought, though. :smallsmile:

I think the problem starts even much earlier: No trees means no hands. And with no hands you have a serious disadvantage when it come to tools and without tools no civilization.

I think aquatic creatures neither have need for cooking nor for heating, the oceans stay about the same temperature all the time. So not having fire is not that much of a problem.
A much bigger problem is food supply. For highly developed civilization you need lots of people on small space which requires a system of getting enough food to them to feed them all, as they can't provide food forthemselves (since they are building stuff). Keeping lifestock in a three dimensional space would be quite a feat and at a certain depths there's not enough energy to grow substential amounts of vegetables. If you want to have agriculture underwater it would have to be in very shallow water or among thermal vents. The rest of the sea is mostly barren sand.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Luminescent fungus solves the light problem. Darkvision and Low-Light Vision could also work.

Underground volcanic activity could create a heat source for cooking and metalworking. I'm pretty sure most aquatic humanoids eat raw fish anyway. Underwater you deal half damage with bludgeoning or slashing weapons, so stabbing weapons like spears, tridents, and harpoons is all you would see. They could be tipped with sharp shells, or even grown from coral.

As for predators, they could do what most aquatic life does to survive: either hide, or have enough spines to be inedible, or be poisonous or just look like something else that's poisonous. A community could be in an alcove beneath a rock shelf, hidden by reefs and sponges with an entrance too narrow for most predators to fit through. When venturing out they could wear armor grown from coral covered in sharp spines, and even impale poisonous fish on the spines.

[Benejeseret]

Well, land civilizations usually built up around a water source...but not a problem in your case. So where would they choose to settle?

Either A) around a reef or high food source

B) around an underwater thermal vent

With a thermal vent they could get a type of glass working going. No idea if the physics would work underwater but is seems plausible enough. Could then have a glass-based civilization, a way to steam cook foods, and a source of heat/light

[Eldan]

I think the problem starts even much earlier: No trees means no hands. And with no hands you have a serious disadvantage when it come to tools and without tools no civilization.

For this, I point you at Octopodes. Incredibly smart, great tool users, excellent eyesight and, perhaps, actually starting to form some kind of tribal society.

[Doc Roc]

Lava vents? Sulfur Vents?

That stuff is hot enough to melt metal. Doesn't let you really make steel though... But a ready supply of sulfur early in a civilization's arc has some interesting implications, speaking theoretically. More so in D&D, where sulfur is a common spell component.
Alternatively, I'm sure that you could justify a few deep-water caves, with vast airy pockets. It's sort of a fantasy staple, right?

[Gnaeus]

No cooked food,

There are civilized people who eat raw fish. I find it dubious myself, but they are unquestionably part of civilization. Also, magic.


no metalworking,

Metalworking isn't strictly necessary either. You can get pretty far with things like obsidian or whalebone. Magical coral is also likely to help.


no glass

Not quite sure why you would need glass.


nothing to keep the predators at bay,

??? All the underwater civs in the MM have weapons. Stone. Coral. Magical tricks like riverine. Maybe metal weapons that they traded or salvaged.


no light at night

Continual light is a pinch of Ruby dust away. Merfolk have low-light vision. Sahguin have darkvision. Bioluminescent coral or fish.


... I have no idea how they would even GET to a tribal level of civilization.

1. Most of the things you cited aren't strictly necessary
2. All the things you cited could be acquired by trade.
3. A 3-5th level caster can duplicate any of these. Many, like light sources, they can create permanently for little cost.

[Ravens_cry]

This is a bit of a rub. In D&D at least, you have magic to help fill the cracks. Imagine this, the ultimate caste system, with different breeds of living beings fulfilling different functions. Instead of engines, you have extremely strong creatures, specialized to their task. Instead of computers, or rather as computers, you have creatures almost entirely brain, whose only purpose is to answer mathematical questions. Vehicles are not carts driven by draft animals, or engine, they are creatures with hollow spaces inside for passengers.
It's a thought anyway.

[SurlySeraph]

What if magnesium or another substance that can combust underwater is ridiculously common where they live? That or the aforementioned volcanoes and thermal vents.

@Yora: See: cephalopods. Lack of trees is no obstacle to developing fine motor skills.

You could also have them use some plausible bioengineering. There's precedent; starting in the 11th century, some Chinese artisans made "Buddha pearls" by putting tiny lead statuettes inside mussels and waiting for the mussel to repeatedly coat it. Large shellfish with fast enough metabolisms that you wouldn't have to wait years for that would work. Building scaffolds around fast-growing coral to direct its growth would work for bigger projects. And there's always remains of large animals; building shelters out of fish or whale bones like mammoth bone huts would work.

EDIT: Pistol shrimp! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpheidae) "The animal snaps a specialized claw shut to create a cavitation bubble that generates acoustic pressures of up to 80 kPa at a distance of 4 cm from the claw... As it collapses, the cavitation bubble reaches temperatures of over 5,000 K (4,700 °C). In comparison, the surface temperature of the sun is estimated to be around 5,800 K (5,500 °C)"

Magnesium has a Mohs hardness of 2.5. That's not very hard. Calcium carbonate with limestone impurities, as in shells, is somewhat harder; I can't find any info on the Mohs hardness of bone, but bone and tooth enamel contain a lot of apatite, which is a 5 on the scale.

So what I'm proposing is that they mine out magnesium with bone tools, store it in some kind of fish oil or something so it doesn't immediately dissolve, use pistol shrimp to light the magnesium on fire, and then do metalworking or glassblowing with the resulting conflagration. Sure it's extremely impractical, but it's too cool to fail!

[bokodasu]

Er, what? I'm pretty sure you can't mine magnesium underwater, due to the whole "bursting-into-superhot-fire" thing it does when it gets wet. Well, that and the "instantly dissolving" thing - it's more soluble than sodium, and the ocean's full of that. (I think dissolved magnesium too, but it's been a couple of years (ok decades) since I had chemistry.)

But yeah. Um, original topic. Boxer crabs! Go google some videos. They're these little crabs that carry around sea anemones to sting other fish with, and they do an adorable little dance to feed the anemones when they're not doing anything else. So I think even based on real-world underwater thingies, bio-tools are the way to go. People already mentioned octopodes, and I can't remember what they are but I'm pretty sure there's some fish or something that sticks things to itself to attract mates. Their culture would be undeniably alien to what we surface-dwellers think of as culture, but they could definitely have one.

[Radar]

On the other hand, I agree with you that progressing beyond Tribal civilization requires some way to manipulate larger amounts of energy, and there just aren't many realistic ways to do that underwater. It seems like to me they would either be very highly magical, or not develop past the tribal stage.
I would rather state, that it's harder for us to think up such methods, since we evolved on land. If a water-based civilisation wants to have some of the things we have, then there are problems like:
1. Heat dissipation in water is higher then in air - this makes creating heat engines and forging more difficult. Not only will it drain too much energy, it will be more dangerous to people around. On land, one can stay fairly close to a red-hot iron bar - underwater it would be too hot to handle and all the boiling water doesn't help in keeping everything under control.
2. It's difficult to isolate chemical substances. Water is a very good solvent and sea water is full of mineral and organic things, that would mix your experiments up.
3. Playing with electricity would be risky as well. Distilled water is a good insulator, sea water cunducts quite well.
4. Mundane ranged weapons would be nest to useless, since they would have very short range. I'd even risk saying, that sea creatures would have a fair chance of outrunning projectiles from underwater bows or thrown javelins.

That being said, bio-engeneering is the way to go underwater.

Also: sonic weapons would be super-effective, so one can expect, that such a civilisation would master sound based technology (ways of generating, focusing and damping sound).

[SurlySeraph]

On the other hand, I agree with you that progressing beyond Tribal civilization requires some way to manipulate larger amounts of energy, and there just aren't many realistic ways to do that underwater. It seems like to me they would either be very highly magical, or not develop past the tribal stage.

Domesticated animals provide more energy than tribal civilizations can manage. As for regular power sources like windmills or watermills... uh... tide-powered machinery? A flywheel mounted over a thermal vent, like a steam engine without the need for fire?


Er, what? I'm pretty sure you can't mine magnesium underwater, due to the whole "bursting-into-superhot-fire" thing it does when it gets wet. Well, that and the "instantly dissolving" thing - it's more soluble than sodium, and the ocean's full of that. (I think dissolved magnesium too, but it's been a couple of years (ok decades) since I had chemistry.

Magnesium doesn't combust on contact with water, it just dissolves and oxidizes. You're thinking potassium and sodium.
It is indeed ridiculously soluble; Wikipedia says it's the third-most abundant element dissolved in seawater. Coating the area to be mined with some oil and regularly replenishing it would but down on the dissolving; not eliminate it, certainly, but well enough that it's a bit plausible and Rule of Cool can do the lifting from there. :smallyuk:

Come on. Octopus-people with shrimp-ignited magnesium bombs. Even if they mostly make their tools by plausible bioengineering processes, instead of ludicrous underwater bonfires, you know you want that.

[houlio]

I don't have enough time or energy to read all the posts right now. So I'm just going to blindly post that a civilization could underwater could go without fire as a heat source as long as they lived in very warm water, low depth preferable (like the tropics). Heat loss is a major concern in general as well, since water conducts heat away form your body much faster than air does.

[TheCountAlucard]

Basically, just because they don't have access to fire or glass doesn't necessarily "cap" the level of their civilization, especially in a fantasy setting, which can include:

1) Mages/Priests/Psions/Binders/Incarnum Dudes and the hijinks they can pull. Let's face it, such powers explicitly allow them to break such restrictions.
2) A patron deity which may very well have been responsible for the formation of the species or civilization. Just like my ex-wife.
3) Anyone want a pizza roll? PM me if you want a pizza roll, or post a comment on this webzone. I can send you a-
4) Perpendicular development. Due to our land-centered mindset, it may be hard for us to imagine another civilization developing in a different fashion, but the truth is, they may well produce innovations in directions we would never think of.

[Darth Stabber]

Shrimp Pistols + Anemone Boxing = Win. That gives me an Idea for an underwater totemist concept.

[Talakeal]

A slight tangent, but this was actually one of the major themes of the last campaign I ran. The BBEG was a kraken who wished to establish an undersea empire but couldn't do so without the basic technologies which simply do not function underwater, so he sent his minions (mostly sahuagin) on land to steal technology and kidnap scholars and craftsmen to steal their secrets. It was sort of reminiscent of king Louie kidnapping Mowgli to learn the secret of the "man's red flower" in the Jungle Bunk.
As the campaign was advancing both sides were coming up with solutions to some of the many problems with establishing a technology base under the sea when the group broke up and the campaign ended. Shame that, or I might have better answers to your question :smallfrown:.

[Jayabalard]

There are civilized people who eat raw fish. I find it dubious myself, but they are unquestionably part of civilization. Also, magic. That kind of misses the point a bit; cooking foods kill parasites/microbes, breaks down otherwise undigestible foods (starchy grains and tubers for example), and offers a means of preserving (smoked/dried foods are less vulnerable to spoilage).

Without cooking, early societies stagnate due since they have a more limited food supply, and have to spend a lot of thier time hunting/gathering compared to a society that has preservation

Now, underwater, the primary food preservation techniques simply aren't going to work; that's going to be a major stumbling block for early underwater societies. I'd expect most of them to wind up stagnating at a small tribe hunter-gatherer stage.

Adding magic to the mix may change things, but see below.


Metalworking isn't strictly necessary either. You can get pretty far with things like obsidian or whalebone. Magical coral is also likely to help. Generally though, people who use those materials are going to lose out to people who have better materials science. I'd expect anyone who can't get metal weapons to get wiped out by people who can.


Not quite sure why you would need glass.It sees a lot of use in the advancement of medicine. And a glass object can be incredibly useful in a society where glass is unknown. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GorHLQ-jLRQ)


2. All the things you cited could be acquired by trade. This assumes that you have a primitive society trading with a more advanced one... that tends to be very one sided.


3. A 3-5th level caster can duplicate any of these. Many, like light sources, they can create permanently for little cost.If a society evolves without needing something, why would they go find to get it through magic? If they don't need a light source, why would they use magical light?

The same sort of question applies to everything on the list: light, food preservation, metalworking, etc.


Magnesium doesn't combust on contact with water, it just dissolves and oxidizes. You're thinking potassium and sodium.
It is indeed ridiculously soluble; Wikipedia says it's the third-most abundant element dissolved in seawater. Coating the area to be mined with some oil and regularly replenishing it would but down on the dissolving; not eliminate it, certainly, but well enough that it's a bit plausible and Rule of Cool can do the lifting from there. :smallyuk:Actually... even potassium and sodium don't combust... they just bond with the oxygen, and release hydrogen gas, along with heat.

Now, when you're in the air, the heat can be enough to ignite the hydrogen gas, which is where the fire comes from, but if it's underwater, there's no free oxygen... so I'd imagine that you're just going to get heat, hydrogen gas, and not much else (you need free oxygen for the hydrogen to actually combust)

[Gnaeus]

That kind of misses the point a bit; cooking foods kill parasites/microbes, breaks down otherwise undigestible foods (starchy grains and tubers for example), and offers a means of preserving (smoked/dried foods are less vulnerable to spoilage, and with further technology there's canning).

Without cooking, early societies stagnate due since they have a more limited food supply, and have to spend a lot of thier time hunting/gathering compared to a society that has preservation

Now, underwater, the primary food preservation techniques simply aren't going to work; that's going to be a major stumbling block for early underwater societies. I'd expect most of them to wind up stagnating at a small tribe hunter-gatherer stage.

Adding magic to the mix may change things, but see below.


If a society evolves without needing something, why would they go find to get it through magic?

Maybe, maybe not. They clearly have domesticated livestock. What you say is true, if food is scarce at certain times of year. That assumption may, or may not be true for underwater society x. As long as societal controls or outside factors (like predation, or hostile neighbors) keeps the population from exceeding the food supply, this might not be a problem.

Hunter Gatherer society. Finds a rich feeding ground. Decides to stay. Develops agriculture, and herding. Builds temples to their gods.

Fast forward a couple hundred years. Population getting too large. They already have a societal infrastructure. They now have a problem. This would be a good time for the clerics to step in and solve the problem with magic.


Generally though, people who use those materials are going to lose out to people who have better materials science. I'd expect anyone who can't get metal weapons to get wiped out by people who can.

The merfolk aren't going to be wiped out by orcs or goblins. Their only rivals will be aquatic races, who probably don't have metal either.

Also, if the Mayans developed a civilization based on obsidian, Merfolk could probably do it also.


It sees a lot of use in the advancement of medicine. And [URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GorHLQ-jLRQ"]a glass object can be incredibly useful in a society where glass is unknown.

Useful /= required.


This assumes that you have a primitive society trading with a more advanced one... that tends to be very one sided.

I think that many, if not most or all of the problems of colonialism would end at the waters edge. A more advanced society will have a hard time oppressing anyone if they can't actually reach their cities. A primitive society, with a wealth of resources and territory that cannot be taken from them by their more advanced rivals, is not in so bad a shape.


If a society evolves without needing something, why would they go find to get it through magic? If they don't need a light source, why would they use magical light?

If they don't need it, they might not. Something like a merman, that has only low-light vision, may still have use for light sources, without requiring them. Or it may just be that a continual flame is easier to transport than a reef of biolumanescent coral.

[LibraryOgre]

So, I was thinking about underwater civilizations and how they would work, and I realized i have NO IDEA how you would get anything more advanced than a loose, tribal society without fire. No cooked food, no metalworking, no glass, nothing to keep the predators at bay, no light at night... I have no idea how they would even GET to a tribal level of civilization.

Post-tribal societies don't necessarily need all of these. What post-tribal societies really need is a reason to go post-tribal... a combination of material cultural sophistication that makes generalism untenable, and distribution networks and technologies to make specialization possible.

So, we look at something like merfolk. First of all, what do they eat? If you want social specialization, you're probably looking at meat and plant matter. The meat works if you assume there are "fish ranches" and fields of mollusks and the like that can be effectively semi-domesticated. For plants, you can look at beds of kelp, which must be tended to avoid grazing, and even plantlike animals (anenomes). Add in a third specialization, that of tool-makers (using primarily bone, stone and shell), and you have the basics of the producing class. With the other two classes being fairly easy to envision (warrior/ruling a priest/learned), you've got a functional tripartite society.

Now, their main communication issue is going to be the unviability of ink on animal hide as a writing method underwater. They may go with a runic system (easier to carve staves than more curvy letters), especially that might be carved onto semi-woody plants. Once they've solved the communication gap, however, they can easily start trading and interacting on a broader scale, within their culture and with others.

[Slipperychicken]

Hold on, Guys. You're making this too hard for yourselves. What have our land-lubber civilizations done when something is easier to do in water than air? We've taken water from the nearest source and brought it back to our little hidey-holes so that we can do things like drink it and keep fish as pets in it.

1. Take a container/bowl/sippy-cup.

2. Fill it with Air (not exactly rocket-science, but needs to be done regardless).

3. Cap it so it doesn't spill, and don't hold it upside-down like a dumb***.

4. ???

5. PROFIT!

Congratulations. You can now boil food and have all the nice things we land-dwellers have. At the bottom of the Ocean if you so desire. Now, was that so hard?

EDIT: This includes things like metallurgy, cooking, etc. Or they could even just have their smithys and kitchens sitting near the surface, just like we have things that need water located near oceans or rivers. If they really needed it at the bottom, they can just drag down big containers of the the stuff... this would explain how empty flagons (or was it bottles?
) could be more valuable than full oens.

[Jayabalard]

The merfolk aren't going to be wiped out by orcs or goblins. Their only rivals will be aquatic races, who probably don't have metal either. No, they'd have rivals in any sort of amphibious race... anyone who can spend time underwater and on land. Those races would have a materials science advantage (since they'd have access to any special underwater materials plus metallurgy)


Also, if the Mayans developed a civilization based on obsidian, Merfolk could probably do it also. Weren't they pretty much wiped out by metal users who had advanced far beyond what they could do technologically because they had stagnated? Granted, it took them 170ish years and hordes of native auxiliaries... but in the end they all but eradicated the Mayans.

I'd expect the same thing to happen to the merfolk; they'd get to a certain point, and then eventually magically advanced humans would virtually wipe them out or subjugate them, in much the same sort of way.


I think that many, if not most or all of the problems of colonialism would end at the waters edge. A more advanced society will have a hard time oppressing anyone if they can't actually reach their cities. A primitive society, with a wealth of resources and territory that cannot be taken from them by their more advanced rivals, is not in so bad a shape. I think that's over-optimistic. Either the merfolk have something that the land dwellers want or they don't

In the former case, the motivation is there for the land dwellers to overcome the problems of going underwater to get it themselves... so I'd expect them to do so since those problems aren't insurmountable. Heck, even the rumor that they have something that the land dwellers want might be enough.

In the latter case, there's no reason for the land dwellers to trade with the merfolk.

Even if the land dwellers don't directly subjugate or wipe out the merfolk... it's likely that the sea dwellers will do it themselves. Meaning: the people who do manage to trade with the land dwellers will wipe out all of the other people who aren't lucky enough to make that connection first... and the people who initially trade with the land dwellers have in effect enslaved themselves (since at that point they become completely dependent on the land dweller's trade)

[No brains]

This problem hits me in a setting I'm cooking up and I thought that just as humans sometimes go out to water to catch large amounts of food, so too can an aquatic society have land scouts to do stuff on shores.

All the best human societies sprung up at the waters edge, so too perhaps this rule could apply to aquan coastal kingdoms vs their hick ocean shelf barbarians.

Also, Octopi and Mayans +1.

[Frozen_Feet]

Re: Trading between land and sea.

Are you kidding me? Getting to the bottom of the sea, even at relatively shallow areas, is hard hard hard even with modern technology. Native sapient creatures than can go there without special equipment would have access to all sorts of things ranging from rare animal parts to treasures in sunken ships. It'd be vastly easier for any land-dwelling civilization to co-operate with merfolk than try to kill or subjugate them.

Re: abundancy of food.

Seas have a lot of biomass literally floating around. Additionally, you can grow things in three dimensions. Food is likely going to be less of a problem to sea-dwellers. There's much less arable land than there is sea volume to grow seaweed or plankton in.

[Ravens_cry]

Actually... even potassium and sodium don't combust... they just bond with the oxygen, and release hydrogen gas, along with heat.

Now, when you're in the air, the heat can be enough to ignite the hydrogen gas, which is where the fire comes from, but if it's underwater, there's no free oxygen... so I'd imagine that you're just going to get heat, hydrogen gas, and not much else (you need free oxygen for the hydrogen to actually combust)

What do you think fish breath? Now, underwater the heat may very well be drawn away too fast for combustion to be sustained, but there IS oxygen dissolved in ocean water.

[Talakeal]

It would probably be pretty hard to herd animals underwater, as any fence would need to be in three dimensions.

[Frozen_Feet]

^They're called nets.

Also, you do know that seadwelling mammals like seals and dolphins can herd schools of fish, right?

Remember that the herders can move in three dimensions as well, and can be faster than the creatures they herd. So all in all, it might not be any harder than herding large flocks of sheep, cows, whatever on land.

[Benejeseret]

I believe humpback whales actually use bubble rings to corral fish:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcdSsNF21Po

Assuming a species could make the bubble ring both big, and permanent then it could in theory serve as a stable corral to hold fish. And, the herders could freely cross the barrier at will.

[LibraryOgre]

It would probably be pretty hard to herd animals underwater, as any fence would need to be in three dimensions.

Or not a fence. While fences help delineate land, you can also control livestock through people and protection. Observe the "open range" movement in the American West... cattle were managed, but not fenced, using the cessation of predators (controlled by the ranchers) and relative availability of food and shelter to keep them from straying.

Alternatively, you might use a wild bird model; instead of sitting on fish until they're ready to harvest, find them at a point in their migration and harvest them then. Salmon would be ideal for this; just string your nets as they hurry into rivermouths.

Now, this actually brings to mind another problem that ocean societies would have... storage. While land societies store with spices, smoking, or salting, this is a bit less practical for ocean societies. Not sure how they'd fix this... perhaps cold storage.


Congratulations. You can now boil food and have all the nice things we land-dwellers have. At the bottom of the Ocean if you so desire. Now, was that so hard?

Yes, because getting enough air for metallurgy, fires, or what have you is going to be extremely difficult. Magically, sure. But until your magic advances to that point, you're going to have trouble getting enough air to do anything with.

[The Dark Fiddler]

Now, this actually brings to mind another problem that ocean societies would have... storage. While land societies store with spices, smoking, or salting, this is a bit less practical for ocean societies. Not sure how they'd fix this... perhaps cold storage.

Purify Food and Drink is an orison, though it would be awfully inconvenient to have to cast that all the time.

[Ravens_cry]

Purify Food and Drink is an orison, though it would be awfully inconvenient to have to cast that all the time.
Worse, in 3.5 zero level spells by default aren't infinite casting, though it's a fairly common houserule I hear.

[LibraryOgre]

Purify Food and Drink is an orison, though it would be awfully inconvenient to have to cast that all the time.

Precisely. Food storage is one of those things that a lot of people overlook, but it's one of the things that makes large-scale societies possible. That a farmer in Kansas... heck, even College Station, which is only a couple hours away... can kill a cow, butcher it, and stick it in cold storage for me to eat days later in Houston is part of what makes our society possible. I don't need to farm; my parents keep a garden, but that's because they like to, not because they need to. Pickling might be an option, if they can contain extremely briny water for pickling less brine-tolerant meats.

[The Dark Fiddler]

Worse, in 3.5 zero level spells by default aren't infinite casting, though it's a fairly common houserule I hear.

Well, yeah, that too, but anybody who can cast from the cleric or druid list, or who has the spell on their list otherwise, can cast it several times a day if needed, or at least once a day. Not a lot of purifying without devoting a lot of resources, but it could still help.

[Frozen_Feet]

Now, this actually brings to mind another problem that ocean societies would have... storage. While land societies store with spices, smoking, or salting, this is a bit less practical for ocean societies. Not sure how they'd fix this... perhaps cold storage.


Several forms of fermentation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermentation_%28food%29) should be usable in water.

[Ravens_cry]

Well, yeah, that too, but anybody who can cast from the cleric or druid list, or who has the spell on their list otherwise, can cast it several times a day if needed, or at least once a day. Not a lot of purifying without devoting a lot of resources, but it could still help.
Still, you're going to need a lot of clerics and druids if zero level spells are not infinite with how basic a function storing and preserving food is.
You will even then with just how much time is required. Also, all this could potentially be very draining to the gods been called on, so however gods are 'fed' by the populous, faith, sacrifices, whatever, may well have to be amped up in comparison to a land dwelling civilisation.

[Lord.Sorasen]

Perhaps they have a group of people who risk the dangers of the surface to build fire and forge steel. It could be a profession or even something like a priesthood.

...Can I steal this? I am really liking the idea.

[Slipperychicken]

Yes, because getting enough air for metallurgy, fires, or what have you is going to be extremely difficult. Magically, sure. But until your magic advances to that point, you're going to have trouble getting enough air to do anything with.

I mentioned this in the edit: you stick your smithy, or at least the parts that require air, near the surface/coast. (I don't know much about metallurgy myself beyond fiar + metal = sordz), But it seems plausible that you could have any fires you need burning above the water, heat the metal there, and bring it back down once the metal-melting bit of the process is over.


Tl;dr: You don't need to bring the air down to use it, just go up.


And if it really becomes an issue, park the cities closer to the coast. Worked for us.

[Ravens_cry]

If a species did that long enough, it would drive evolution toward an amphibious existance, as such risk takers, braving the Hell Above, would be rewarded by society. Also, those who could do it better because they could last longer up there for whatever reasons, longer able to hold their breath and eventually primitive lungs. Ooh, now I want to write a story where this group did not dominate the whole population, but instead were restricted to this caste.
***
Respected and reviled, the Hell Divers were, who went where you could not fly, where the ground sucked you down, where the life was stolen out of you by the cruel Unmurky Eye, where you could not breath the air. Well, you could not, but the Hell Divers could ,some say, a sign of their kinship to that evil place said one, a penance for a long forgotten sin said others. While pragmatism demanded the miracles they brought back from Hell were more then welcome, they were not. No, not them, not the Hell Divers.

[Kadzar]

I mentioned this in the edit: you stick your smithy, or at least the parts that require air, near the surface/coast. (I don't know much about metallurgy myself beyond fiar + metal = sordz), But it seems plausible that you could have any fires you need burning above the water, heat the metal there, and bring it back down once the metal-melting bit of the process is over.


Tl;dr: You don't need to bring the air down to use it, just go up.


And if it really becomes an issue, park the cities closer to the coast. Worked for us.Actually, there might be a problem with taking metal underwater that everyone seems to have overlooked so far: corrosion. Considering the time and resources it takes to make metal tools and weapons, it may not be worth the effort if they rust away in less than a month. Actually, this doesn't rule out the use of metals completely, but it does restrict the type of metal that could be used. Iron and steel would not do well at all in a watery environment, especially salt-water, but bronze would fair much better because it tends to rust only superficially; in fact, because of its combination of strength and corrosion resistance, bronze is to this day is used for ship propellers. Bronze is not quite as strong as steel, and can't hold as sharp an edge as long, but it is otherwise a fine metal.

That being said, it is quite unlikely that a sub-aquatic race would develop a metals industry. Supposing that they had a reason to be above water, it is unlikely that merfolk would naturally discover the processes needed to create metals. Granted, it wouldn't be impossible, but such an occurrence is highly improbable.

[hewhosaysfish]

I mentioned this in the edit: you stick your smithy, or at least the parts that require air, near the surface/coast. (I don't know much about metallurgy myself beyond fiar + metal = sordz), But it seems plausible that you could have any fires you need burning above the water, heat the metal there, and bring it back down once the metal-melting bit of the process is over.

I'm just imagining the "WTF?!" expressions of a group of players as their DM describes the empty smithy-shrines lined up along the remote beach and they try to work out who they belong to...

[Otherworld Odd]

I would just come up with a fantasy form of a heat source to do metalworking, etc. Or perhaps they even trade with local land-lubbers (Fish or rare underwater materials for weapons, armor, etc?) It's very possible, it just takes imagination.

[Chuckthedwarf]

So, I was thinking about underwater civilizations and how they would work, and I realized i have NO IDEA how you would get anything more advanced than a loose, tribal society without fire. No cooked food, no metalworking, no glass, nothing to keep the predators at bay, no light at night... I have no idea how they would even GET to a tribal level of civilization.

They could eat food raw, use alternatives for tools and what not - I'm thinking bone, plant, stone-based stuff.

Then there's the whole pile of insanity that is magic/psionics. They can do anything.

And above all, writers do not necessarily care a lot about "realism". Consider a lot of fantasy/mythological creatures, D&D having plenty of them. Instead of developing a whole complicated society, one can just handwave a few things and explain everything else with "magic!". I'm not a big fan of that approach, I like some flawed explanation at the least, but it's certainly fairly popular.

Outside of metal, I think underwater societies in D&D can do just about anything. Magic could probably help with smelting, otherwise there's only scavenging or trading.

But considering how many metal-equivalent or superior-to-metal materials there are in D&D, I don't think lack of metallurgy is a big problem.

[shadmere]

...Can I steal this? I am really liking the idea.

Certainly! :smallbiggrin:

[LibraryOgre]

I mentioned this in the edit: you stick your smithy, or at least the parts that require air, near the surface/coast. (I don't know much about metallurgy myself beyond fiar + metal = sordz), But it seems plausible that you could have any fires you need burning above the water, heat the metal there, and bring it back down once the metal-melting bit of the process is over.

However, then you're not really looking at an aquatic society, but an amphibious one. That's why I looked to merfolk as exemplars... they're kept off of land by lacking good limbs for it.

Furthermore, I'd say that such a development would only come about late in their societal development... they'd need exterior exposure to metal objects to apprehend an advantage to them, since metal is not readily available in their environment. It's kind of like clothes; australopithicenes likely didn't wear clothes, because they had little reason to develop them. Once Homo started moving out of Africa, however, they had to deal with more extreme temperatures, and develop technologies to deal with them.