4E races equivalent?

[Thant]

I was wondering if there are available stats somewhere for the Shardminds and Wilden from 4Ed PHB3 in 3.5 form? Particularly the Shardminds 'cause I would very much like to incorporate them in upcoming Dark Sun game that we're about to play (Shardmind Erudite? Hell yeah :smallcool:).

[hivedragon]

how about you buy the book.
or you could just quickly look it up in the book store

[manyslayer]

Wildren were in the Planar Handbook.

[Urpriest]

Wildren were in the Planar Handbook.

They're not Wilden though. Wildren are beastmen from the Beastlands. Wilden are based on Killoren, from Races of the Wild, as they are both nature-loving plant-people, have a similar look, and have the whole aspects thing going.

Shardminds didn't exist in 3.5. Even if they did, they wouldn't exist in 3.5 Dark Sun, since their fluff is about a portal to the Far Realm and such things don't exist in 3.5 Dark Sun.

[Thant]

how about you buy the book.
or you could just quickly look it up in the book store

No, you didn't get me: I know they are 4Ed only but my group prefers 3.5/Pathfinder over 4Ed; I just wasn't sure how to transfer them (their racial adjustments) to 3.5 Ed so that they would be compatible with our game.

I first noticed them here (http://dungeonsmaster.com/2010/04/the-shardmind/) and here (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4dnd/20110127) and instantly was intrigued by the Wilden and left in awe by the Shardminds.

I figured that maybe someone already refitted them and I was curious what their racial stats would look like in 3.5, that's all.


Wildren were in the Planar Handbook.

Which I don't have and they are not the ones I'm looking for (Wildren =/= Wilden?) but tnx anyway.


They're not Wilden though. Wildren are beastmen from the Beastlands. Wilden are based on Killoren, from Races of the Wild, as they are both nature-loving plant-people, have a similar look, and have the whole aspects thing going.

Shardminds didn't exist in 3.5. Even if they did, they wouldn't exist in 3.5 Dark Sun, since their fluff is about a portal to the Far Realm and such things don't exist in 3.5 Dark Sun.

I meant "Wilden" not "Wildren"; but I'm not primarly interested in them, I'm specificaly curious about the Shardminds.

I believe they would fit in properly if their fluff was somewhat revised to better suit the Dark Sun setting. As naturally powerful psychics I don't see how would they stand out so much among other creatures of Athas if their culture and the Far Realms part of the story were well incorporated or dropped altogether and replaced with something else (they sound good both as player characters and PC foes). Who knows what wonders the wastelands hide beyond the Tablelands :smallwink:

[hamishspence]

Might 4E's take on Dark Sun be doable in 3E?

The Far Realm might not be all that out of place in such a setting.

[Thant]

Might 4E's take on Dark Sun be doable in 3E?

The Far Realm might not be all that out of place in such a setting.

Well yes considering that there are already Illithid on Athas (at least there were some in Dark Sun 2: Wake of the Ravager) and some of barbaric Githyanki are also there. I wouldn't mess around so much with the idea of portals or Gates to the Far Realms considering how Athas is closed to planar travel but with Shardminds it could prove like an interesting plot hook - maybe they finally succeeded in closing all of the Gates (at least on Athas) and now are left without purpose wandering the world, actively hunting the remaining Mind Flayers that were left here after all portals ceased to funciton; or they suddenly awake after a long time spent in psionic hibernation, answering to a call only they could feel - a sign that a something got through to Athas from the Far Realms or is trying to get out...possibilities possibilities :smallsmile:

I just love the Shardminds :smallbiggrin:

[RebelRogue]

The 4e Shardmind has some things in common with the 3.5 Psiforged: living constructs adept at playing psionic classes. There's some fluff you need to redo, but mechanically, that's where I'd start.

[RTGoodman]

The 4E Wilden is a straight port of the Killoren from (3.5) Races of the Wild. They're kinda neat, but I've never played one (or seen anyone else play one, for that matter).

For Shardmind, I agree that Psi-Forged might be a good start.

[Urpriest]

Isn't crystal, while not as rare as metal, still pretty rare in Dark Sun? In a world where the players are scrambling to get anything better than bronze weapons, it seems a little odd to allow players made out of crystal.

[mobdrazhar]

Isn't crystal, while not as rare as metal, still pretty rare in Dark Sun? In a world where the players are scrambling to get anything better than bronze weapons, it seems a little odd to allow players made out of crystal.

this is correct. it would be like putting a warforged in DS. as soon as you were seen people would be trying to pull you apart.

[RTGoodman]

Then just have him be made of obsidian. It's valuable, yes, but relatively common. (As a bonus, it's known in the DS canon as being magically/psionically resonant.)

[Sipex]

And you get to be black.

...

Kids love black, right?

[manyslayer]

They're not Wilden though. Wildren are beastmen from the Beastlands. Wilden are based on Killoren, from Races of the Wild, as they are both nature-loving plant-people, have a similar look, and have the whole aspects thing going.

Shardminds didn't exist in 3.5. Even if they did, they wouldn't exist in 3.5 Dark Sun, since their fluff is about a portal to the Far Realm and such things don't exist in 3.5 Dark Sun.

Sorry, my bad. Misread it with the "r". Hadn't seen the 4E races as I bought the initial books, read it, tried it, and kept right on with 3.5.

[Bagelz]

I agree that you can probably find something in various psionic or setting books somewhere, but what kind of level adjuster were you looking for.

for a 0 level adjuster i'd start with something like
+2 mental stat (probably int), -2 physical (dex?) stat,
darkvision, living construct(same traits as warforged)
crystaline (takes 1.5x damage from sonic)
dr 2/bludgeon
# Naturally Psionic:(gain 2 bonus power points at 1st level. This benefit does not grant them the ability to manifest powers unless they gain that ability through another source, such as levels in a psionic class)

dr 2/bludgeon may be overpowered at low levels, and underpowered after about level 5... just what I came up with in 5 mins.

[LibraryOgre]

Isn't crystal, while not as rare as metal, still pretty rare in Dark Sun? In a world where the players are scrambling to get anything better than bronze weapons, it seems a little odd to allow players made out of crystal.

Crystal isn't nearly as rare as metal, but it's usually not useful in terms of weapons. An Athasian shardmind would probably be made out of obsidian; I'd still go with a warforged as a "base", then tweak in a few ways to make it work.

[Thant]

Isn't crystal, while not as rare as metal, still pretty rare in Dark Sun? In a world where the players are scrambling to get anything better than bronze weapons, it seems a little odd to allow players made out of crystal.

In our current campaign, one of the characters is actually a paladin of the Most Noble Order of the Radiant Heart from FR that somehow got planeshifted to Dark Sun (included in his backstory but never completely revealed as for how it actually happened) with all of his starting equipment (e.g. metal longsword and metal half-plate and other "priceless" stuff) and materialized in the center of the elven market in Balic...ironicly his patron deity was also Tyr (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Tyr) :smallbiggrin:

Needless to say that after the starting confusion and awe, there was loads of fun (the population mistook him for a divine herald of some sort) and some pretty heavy roleplaying was involved :smallsmile:

I like the idea of using the Psiforged as a starting point and for reference but I would prefer to make the Shardminds a bit more special instead of just "cloning" the former (I think Bagelz has the most of it right). The obsidian part I like (sounds somewhat natural) but I guess a smaller amount of the Shardmind population could come in other crystal variates...

[cupkeyk]

And you get to be black.

...

Kids love black, right?

Are you referring to Pokemon Black? Lolz

[LibraryOgre]

I like the idea of using the Psiforged as a starting point and for reference but I would prefer to make the Shardminds a bit more special instead of just "cloning" the former (I think Bagelz has the most of it right). The obsidian part I like (sounds somewhat natural) but I guess a smaller amount of the Shardmind population could come in other crystal variates...

Ok, start with this question, then:

What are shardminds? Are they undead spirits animating collections of rock and sand (I'd shy away from saying "crystal" specifically)? Are they some natural function of Athas... an incarnate nature spirit, a fallen angel of lost deities (who never existed... even gods of Necromancy are too cheery for Dark "When do we get to eat the half-giant" Sun)? Or are they simply a weird "natural" race?

Once you figure out what they are, you can start taking steps towards knowing how they work. The idea to start with Warforged stems from the idea that they're non-organic, maybe even non-life. Using the "living construct" rules keep them playable, without drowning in new rules. If you want them to be unique, think about what you can take away from Warforged so you can add to Shardminds.

[RTGoodman]

What are shardminds? Are they undead spirits animating collections of rock and sand (I'd shy away from saying "crystal" specifically)? Are they some natural function of Athas... an incarnate nature spirit, a fallen angel of lost deities (who never existed... even gods of Necromancy are too cheery for Dark "When do we get to eat the half-giant" Sun)? Or are they simply a weird "natural" race?

If I were doing it, I'd say that they're a race of living constructs made of sand, stone, and obsidian brought to life by the power of the Pristine Tower. There's canon evidence that the magic of the Tower can turn normal beings into crazy new race kinda things, too, so you could go that route.

[LibraryOgre]

If I were doing it, I'd say that they're a race of living constructs made of sand, stone, and obsidian brought to life by the power of the Pristine Tower. There's canon evidence that the magic of the Tower can turn normal beings into crazy new race kinda things, too, so you could go that route.

Pristine Tower! That was it! Could NOT remember its name.

[Tiki Snakes]

Just like to chime in on the subject of crystal being very desireable on Athas;

So, you have a theoretical race who are made from the kind of resource that makes every single person they meet start sizing up whether they could get some friends together to successfully gank them and break them down for money and toys...

Meaning that more classical Shardminds would be basically hunted and pursued everywhere they went, generally have the whole world out to kill them, and likely have no recognised value as people, in society...

What, that's too gritty a premise for Dark Sun now? :smallwink:

I think it works perfectly. You're made of money. No-one's really sure, or really cares what you are or where you came from. If they realise what you are, they'll reach for the sledgehammer to snap your fingers off rather than start researching your origin. Only the Ancient sages of the Shardmind people even have the faintest idea of their (likely foul and/or apocalyptical?) origin, scattered as they are to the deepest, most inhospitable corners of the world to escape persecution.
Yada yada yada. I'd go with something like that, personally.

[RTGoodman]

Pristine Tower! That was it! Could NOT remember its name.

Yeah, I had to do some pretty precise Googling to find it. (Note: It's not called the Dark Tower, as much as I thought that was it. :smallsigh:) Apparently it's almost never mentioned except the section of the Prism Pentad that it's in.


@Tiki: Of course, it's mostly humans that would want to hunt you for crystal. I don't think the Kreen really care about it, or the Halflings either. They could survive just fine in the Wastes without interaction with the "civilized" species.

[LibraryOgre]

So, you have a theoretical race who are made from the kind of resource that makes every single person they meet start sizing up whether they could get some friends together to successfully gank them and break them down for money and toys...

Truthfully, though, that's pretty much EVERYONE. You're all made of meat (yummy, nutritious) and bone (aka "your legs are clubs still in the factory wrapper"). Heck, in 2e, thri-kreen had to specifically resist the urge to eat elves, and halflings ate everybody.



@Tiki: Of course, it's mostly humans that would want to hunt you for crystal. I don't think the Kreen really care about it, or the Halflings either. They could survive just fine in the Wastes without interaction with the "civilized" species.

Thri-kreen, in earlier editions, could make crystal weapons without needing to gank shardminds.

Incidentally, that may be where you'd find a lot of shardminds... living with thri-kreen. They're not food. They're not competitors for food. And they don't sleep.

[Thant]

I was wondering about something: suppose a Dvati pair takes the wild/hidden talent feat, and both start advancing in Erudite or Telepath. Would they share their PP total or each would have it's own amount (although they still would cast simultaneously)? Would they have freedom when adding new powers (through levels or other means)? And what would be the consequences of manifesting a metaconcert? How would they contribute to the "pool" for the new formed psionic entity? :smallconfused:

[LOTRfan]

Actually, it would be pretty fun to homebrew the Shardminds....

Yeah, what others have said; Wilden are known as Killoren in 3.5e, and can be found in Races of the Wild.

[LOTRfan]

Could this work? Hopefully its balanced.

Shardmind Racial Traits
• -2 Constitution, +2 Intelligence, +2 Wisdom
• Medium Construct (Living Construct, Extraplanar): Living constructs combine aspects of both constructs and living creatures. See the Living Construct subtype for more details. As Medium creatures, Shardminds do not gain and advantages or disadvantages due to size. As natives of the Astral Plane, Shardminds gain the Extraplanar subtype when on the Material Plane.
• +2 bonus to attack rolls against Aberrations.
• Naturally Psionic: Shardminds gain 2 extra power points at 1st level. This benefit does not grant them the ability to manifest powers unless they gain that ability through another source, such as levels in a psionic class.
• Swarm Form (Ex): Once per day, a Shardmind may break down into its base form, a swarm of animated crystalline shards. In this form, the Shardmind’s size changes to diminutive, has a space of 10 ft., and has a reach of 0 ft. The Shardmind does not have the distraction ability, but deals swarm damage as a swarm of its HD would. A Shardmind gains all other swarm traits, except a Shard swarm reduced to 0 hp becomes inert. A Shardmind can remain this form for a number of rounds equal to its Wisdom modifier before having to make concentration checks (DC 15 + number of rounds spent in swarm form) to maintain it. All items being carries by the Shardmind are dropped during the transformation. A Shardmind who is killed or knocked unconscious automatically enters the Swarm Form, even if it has expended its daily use. It does not deal swarm damage when this occurs, but it keeps all swarm immunities. Once brought back to positive hit points, the Shardmind regains its humanoid form.
• Damage Reduction 3/Bludgeoning: The Shardmind’s crystalline body makes it resistant to certain forms of attacks. This ability allows the Shardmind to ignore the first 3 points of damage dealt by any weapon other than ones that deal bludgeoning damage.
• Vulnerability to Sonic Attacks: Shardminds, being composed of living crystal, are more vulnerable to sonic attacks than other creatures. They take 50% extra damage from such attacks. Shardminds take damage from the Shatter spell (see spell description for more details).
• Languages: Common, Undercommon. Bonus Languages: Terran, Celestia, Infernal, Abyssal.
• Favored Class: Psion
• Level Adjustment: +1

For a Dark Sun campaign, I would make the following changes:
Lose the extraplanar subtype. As others have said, making them creatures spawned by the pristine tower could be interesting.
Change all references to crystal with obsidian.
You might want to swap the bonus languages for languages that make a little more sense for the campaign.

[Thant]

LotrFan, this looks awesome! :smallsmile:

I would onlu add a few things:

- Considering that they are made entierly of crystal/obsidian I guess that living construct entry should be altered a bit when it comes to effect of certain spells & powers; they wouldn't be affected by a heat metal, repel wood, rustling grasp etc. in a way a warforged would (in place of this I guess some psionic powers or spells aimed at crystalline properties of objects should be mentioned).

- As natural telepaths maybe they should be given a missive at will power (I'm not sure how much is this unbalanced (if at all)?

- Also, as it is accustomed in DS 3.5 all player races have an "inborn power" of 1st level; I guess a crystal shard (or missive) would be in place for these guys.

- I'm not sure how aging works for races with living construct feature. Are they immortal? Would they gain no penalties (but no bonuses too) from the length of their lifespans?

- Seen how all spiky and edgy they are would it be right to give them a natural attack of some sort?

- An interesting idea occured to me: if a Shardmind was made from for example blood obsidian or deep crystal, whould she retain the special properties of the material or they would be lost altogether? Or if an adventurer would salvage a body of a dead Shardmind and made a weapon out of it would it then affect the weapon properties (taking into account that the "corpse" was made from something else and not just regular obsidian)? Would a racial feat be a good idea for something of the sort? Something like "Deep Crystal Body [Racial]". It's an interesting thought :smallsmile:


Other than this and the Dvati question I have another one considering the Ptterans; they always strike me as the "boring race" of the DS with nothing that much interesting to add (ugly flightless reptilian? Why not just play a Dray or Ssuran?) so I was thinking to refit them a bit more toward the Pterrax giving them an ability to fly depending on their HD (similar to Raptorans). Would that be ok?

[LOTRfan]

LotrFan, this looks awesome! :smallsmile:

I would onlu add a few things:

- Considering that they are made entierly of crystal/obsidian I guess that living construct entry should be altered a bit when it comes to effect of certain spells & powers; they wouldn't be affected by a heat metal, repel wood, rustling grasp etc. in a way a warforged would (in place of this I guess some psionic powers or spells aimed at crystalline properties of objects should be mentioned).

I was under the impression that those were Warforged-only traits, not Living Construct traits in general. For Obsidian Shardminds, I guess stone to flesh would negate the damage resistance. I'll have to look through the srd to find other changes in spells to fit their biology.


- As natural telepaths maybe they should be given a missive at will power (I'm not sure how much is this unbalanced (if at all)?

Alright, although I'm sort of worried that might put them in LA +2 territory (especially combined with you're natural weapon suggestion below). I could be wrong, so I'll wait for someone else to comment if that is to powerful for LA +1 or not, but would you care if it upped the LA?


- Also, as it is accustomed in DS 3.5 all player races have an "inborn power" of 1st level; I guess a crystal shard (or missive) would be in place for these guys.

Interesting. I've always used the athas.org version, which didn't have those. Do you play the Dragon magazine version? I'll have to compare the powers of the other races to find an appropriate one.


- I'm not sure how aging works for races with living construct feature. Are they immortal? Would they gain no penalties (but no bonuses too) from the length of their lifespans?

I think they are ageless. I'm not sure. I think that's DM's choice, so I'll leave that to you to decide.


- Seen how all spiky and edgy they are would it be right to give them a natural attack of some sort?

I'm willing to do it, but check my comment about the psionic power above.


- An interesting idea occured to me: if a Shardmind was made from for example blood obsidian or deep crystal, whould she retain the special properties of the material or they would be lost altogether? Or if an adventurer would salvage a body of a dead Shardmind and made a weapon out of it would it then affect the weapon properties (taking into account that the "corpse" was made from something else and not just regular obsidian)? Would a racial feat be a good idea for something of the sort? Something like "Deep Crystal Body [Racial]". It's an interesting thought :smallsmile:

That could be an interesting idea.


Other than this and the Dvati question I have another one considering the Ptterans; they always strike me as the "boring race" of the DS with nothing that much interesting to add (ugly flightless reptilian? Why not just play a Dray or Ssuran?) so I was thinking to refit them a bit more toward the Pterrax giving them an ability to fly depending on their HD (similar to Raptorans). Would that be ok?

I think the Athas.org version of the Pterrans are kind of cool. I don't know about you're suggestion, though, because I'd have to see the actual pterran stats to suggest anything. I'll leave that to someone is is more familiar with them.

[Thant]

I was under the impression that those were Warforged-only traits, not Living Construct traits in general. For Obsidian Shardminds, I guess stone to flesh would negate the damage resistance. I'll have to look through the srd to find other changes in spells to fit their biology.

You are right, those traits are reserved for Warforged only, my bad :smallredface:

But I think some sort of equivalent (in spells and powers that affect them as crystalline creatures) would be appropriate for the Shardminds (maybe they are immune to crystallize, subject to matter manipulation power and so on) but that's just a thought.


Alright, although I'm sort of worried that might put them in LA +2 territory (especially combined with you're natural weapon suggestion below). I could be wrong, so I'll wait for someone else to comment if that is to powerful for LA +1 or not, but would you care if it upped the LA?


I'm willing to do it, but check my comment about the psionic power above.

I wouldn't care much considering that all of the starting races in DS 3.5 we use (link provided) have a minimum LA of +1 because of the additional benefits their racial traits confer to the characters (the idea of Athasian inhabitants being stronger and more resilient than their counterparts on other planes) so it would actually translate as if their LA was one level lower in a way (LA +1 being LA +0 among the other Athasian chars). A natural attack would be neat but not a requirement (some natural armor instead maybe?) :smallsmile:


Interesting. I've always used the athas.org version, which didn't have those. Do you play the Dragon magazine version? I'll have to compare the powers of the other races to find an appropriate one.

These are (http://www.scribd.com/doc/28708306/Dark-Sun-Campaign-Setting-3-5-Complete) the two books (http://www.4shared.com/document/xTXe1C5m/DD_35_-_Dark_Sun_35_Monster_Ma.htm) me and my players use the most for reference + Core & 3.5 psionics (Complete, Expanded) as well as some other books (Terror of Athas etc.) while referring to 2nd Ed. when the needs be (mostly for fluff) with a bit of 4th Ed. (ideas that we feel would fit well with original setting). The rules for defiling are the ones found in the Dragon Magazine 315 (already included in the linked Campaign Setting).


I think they are ageless. I'm not sure. I think that's DM's choice, so I'll leave that to you to decide.

I agree and I think that there should be a drawback to immortality of any sort (losing both the benefits and penalties of old age in this case for example).



That could be an interesting idea.

I will contemplate a bit more on this.



I think the Athas.org version of the Pterrans are kind of cool. I don't know about you're suggestion, though, because I'd have to see the actual pterran stats to suggest anything. I'll leave that to someone is is more familiar with them.

The main problem I have with them is that they are flightless pterodactyls which is a bit contradictory by itself. On the other hand you have Pterrax (http://i53.tinypic.com/jry887.jpg) (they are in the DS 3.5 monster manual; I think that somewhere is rvrn mentioned that the Pterrans are their offshot) that are as good as their cousins but with the ability to fly (and they remind me of Sauron (http://villains.wikia.com/wiki/Sauron_%28Marvel%29) which is even more awesome).

Maybe adding a feat similar to the Outsider Wings from MoF would do the trick (Pterrax Lineage [racial] for example). I do like them but I feel that they are somehow left behind by other races (they aren't that much rich culturally either) and that with this option they would be more appealing to the players and present an alternative to the Aarakocra.


Tnx for your replies and comments, your have aided me greatly! :smallsmile:

[LibraryOgre]

• +2 bonus to attack rolls against Aberrations.

Any particular reason for this?



• Damage Resistance 3/Slashing: The Shardmind’s crystalline body makes it resistant to certain forms of attacks. This ability allows the Shardmind to ignore the first 3 points of damage dealt by slashing weapons. This is not effective against other forms of damage.

If they ONLY resist slashing, then it should be listed as 3/Bludgeoning and Piercing (i.e. bludgeoning and piercing can overcome their damage resistance). Personally, I would say 3/Bludgeoning makes more sense... they're a bunch of little rocks. While a mace might knock a few loose, a sword isn't going to do much, and an arrow even less.



• Vulnerability to Sonic Attacks: Shardminds, being composed of living crystal, are more vulnerable to sonic attacks than other creatures. They take 50% extra damage from such attacks.

I would include a specific vulnerability to the shatter spell... state that it effects them, just to make sure it's listed.

[LOTRfan]

Any particular reason for this?

They are parts of a living gate that opposed the far realms, and I thought it would fit. If it doesn't I can take it out.

If they ONLY resist slashing, then it should be listed as 3/Bludgeoning and Piercing (i.e. bludgeoning and piercing can overcome their damage resistance). Personally, I would say 3/Bludgeoning makes more sense... they're a bunch of little rocks. While a mace might knock a few loose, a sword isn't going to do much, and an arrow even less.

I was under the impression that if it had Damage Reduction 3/Bludgeoning and Piercing, than the weapon would have to deal both types of damage. I believe you are thinking of DR/ __ or __. Regardless, I'll change it to 3/Bludgeoning.

I would include a specific vulnerability to the shatter spell... state that it effects them, just to make sure it's listed.

I'll add that in, too.

[LibraryOgre]

Arrrgh. Don't put it inside the quote box; makes you hard to respond to.

However, on the DR, you are correct. I like the new version.