So, I have to represent the almighty awesomeness of Wizards... (3.5)

[The-Mage-King]

As the title says, I have to represent the sheer power of wizards to some poor fool who claims that they can't adventure without a party. Specifically, the fighter part of it, because "Wizards are squishy".

:smallyuk:

Thing is, I was foolish and said that I'd take the challenge... and use core only. :smalleek:

Yeah. Time to go far OP.

So, playground, I ask you- what spells, skills, and items would you suggest for a solo adventuring adventurer, made with Core only?


The sheet I'm using is here (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=281332).

[Gavinfoxx]

So this is Wizard 20, using PHB, DMG, MM, & SRD?

[The-Mage-King]

So this is Wizard 20, using PHB, DMG, MM, & SRD?

Other than SRD, yes. I'm avoiding PrCs so that I can say "It's the actual class, not a PrC. You can see that." if I get hassled about it. I'd prefer to keep it from being easy to take out...

[Siosilvar]

Solid Fog, Overland Flight, Invisibility, Grease, Glitterdust, Evard's Black Tentacles...

[jiriku]

Well, first of all, read Logic Ninja's Batman wizard guide, and then TreantMonk20's reviews of spells from various schools. This will give you a general idea of which kinds of spells are good, and why.

Now, you don't have a party, I understand? Sounds like the thing to do then is to acquire some minions. Greater planar binding should be your go-to spell, since it can get you most any outsider for a long duration. I'd also look at charm monster and dominate person as excellent tools for acquiring NPC assistants who will support you.

Looks like your stats suck. Polymorph and shapechange are your obvious spells to correct that problem.

Seems like you might could die, since you're unfamiliar with playing a high-level wizard. Better use genesis to create a nice safe little pocket plane for yourself, then cast astral projection, then plane shift back to go back to the prime material. Now if you die, you'll just wind up back in your pocket plane.

OK, you have a party that you created or ensorceled yourself, you can't die, and you have a good understanding of what other spells to prepare from reading the guides. Drop a few divinations like contact other plane, vision, and discern location, teleport to the adventure site, and you should be good to go.

[Gavinfoxx]

No you don't teleport to the 'adventure site', you teleport to the *location of your goal*. =D

Also why do your stats suck so much?

28 point buy on a grey elf at level 20 should be, uhhh...

6 str
12 dex
14 con
25 int
10 wis
8 cha

or something like that. And you could be level 19 and have wished for inherent bonuses, just so you know...

[arguskos]

Gate.
...?
Profit!

Really, use gate to go fetch something insane and destroy everything in existence. Solars are pretty good. Even better, go fetch a pit fiend, use the magic jar trick to be them forever, call it a day. You're now absurdly ridiculous, and have used like 4 spells. Go find the fighter and beat on him until he dies.

[Yukitsu]

Planar binding, moment of prescience, take 10. Now the wizard is a party.

[The-Mage-King]

Replies in BOLD.


Well, first of all, read Logic Ninja's Batman wizard guide, and then TreantMonk20's reviews of spells from various schools. This will give you a general idea of which kinds of spells are good, and why.

Already reading them. I need gear, though.

Now, you don't have a party, I understand? Sounds like the thing to do then is to acquire some minions. Greater planar binding should be your go-to spell, since it can get you most any outsider for a long duration. I'd also look at charm monster and dominate person as excellent tools for acquiring NPC assistants who will support you.

Thing is, I want to go into the dungeon solo, and walk out with all the treasure and no corpses. Yeah.

Looks like your stats suck. Polymorph and shapechange are your obvious spells to correct that problem.

That would be a 32 pb. Being an Old Grey Elf can ramp Int up a bit, after all.

Seems like you might could die, since you're unfamiliar with playing a high-level wizard. Better use genesis to create a nice safe little pocket plane for yourself, then cast astral projection, then plane shift back to go back to the prime material. Now if you die, you'll just wind up back in your pocket plane.

Oh, I'm familiar with high level wizards. It's just that I'm unfamiliar with Core only high level wizards. And genesis isn't Core.

OK, you have a party that you created or ensorceled yourself, you can't die, and you have a good understanding of what other spells to prepare from reading the guides. Drop a few divinations like contact other plane, vision, and discern location, teleport to the adventure site, and you should be good to go.

I suspect that the guy who this challenge is being made at is going to dislike the strategy of gathering mooks before attacking.


@Siosilvar: Ah, those spells. I had almost forgotten about them.

[Gavinfoxx]

32 point buy should get you WAY higher stats than that!

Gray elf should be... uhhh... with 32 point buy, something like..

6 str
14 dex
16 con
25 int
8 wis
8 cha
or something

remember you choose, pre-mods, up to 18, and THEN you add your 5 levelling bonuses.

[arguskos]

I suspect that the guy who this challenge is being made at is going to dislike the strategy of gathering mooks before attacking.
Who cares? He asked to see what makes the Wizard powerful. Show him, in the most brutal fashion possible. He wanted to see it, so hold nothing back. Obliterate him with your gate-hordes, your planar bindings, your stopped time delayed explosions.

He wished to see what God is capable of. Don't disappoint, and don't hold back.

EDIT: Don't ban Necromancy. Enervation is good. Ban Enchantment instead, as it's entirely useless in Core-Only. Dominate is nowhere near as strong as Planar Binding/Gate.

[The-Mage-King]

32 point buy should get you WAY higher stats than that!

Gray elf should be... uhhh... with 32 point buy, something like..

6 str
14 dex
16 con
25 int
8 wis
8 cha
or something

remember you choose, pre-mods, up to 18, and THEN you add your 5 levelling bonuses.

Remember, OLD Grey elf. This is scores before old age:
STR: 9 DEX: 13 CON: 14 INT: 20 WIS: 8 CHA: 8

... I see. My Int should be 27.


EDIT: Alright, I swap that around.

[Gavinfoxx]

Remember, OLD Grey elf. This is scores before old age:

STR: 9 DEX: 13 CON: 14 INT: 20 WIS: 8 CHA: 8

... I see. My Int should be 27.


EDIT: Alright, I swap that around.

Okay, at level 1, after racial mods, before age mods, you had that? That's 30 point buy. Lower your dex some and increase your con to 16, make sure to get that 16 con pre age penalties.

Also try statting out your character here:

http://www.pathguy.com/cg35.htm

[Firechanter]

Wizard 20? Boy you've got this challenge loaded in your favour. The question is not whether a Wizard 20 needs other folks. He doesn't, except as water-carriers. The question for a Wizard is how he _gets there_.

I am not a good optimizer so I'll not get into details, there are enough other guys here who can do that up down and sideways, so I'll stick to a theoretical level. I'm just amused how this other guy who challenged you accepted a max level build.

IME, the really critical levels for a Wizard are roughly 1-6. Here he is decidedly weaker than other classes and get killed by a single (un)lucky shot without being able to contribute such a lot to the effort. Soloing chance? Very very slim.
Then, I forget how far exactly, but very roughly levels 7-12 or so the Wizard is about on par with the other classes. Still not necessarily what I would want to solo with, but with care and good build it might be done.
But somewhere after this point, that all turns pretty much around and the party is relegated to latrine duty while the Wiz reaps all the glory.
Just one example: if you need a meatshield, you have Summon spells so who needs that stupid waste of a treasure share that calls himself Fighter? Send an Elemental, they cost nothing!

Long story short, imho it's a waste of time to stat out a Wiz 20 to prove you can solo with it. It's like mathematically proving that fish can swim. Do the same with a Wiz 10 or lower and I'll take off my hat to you.

[Gavinfoxx]

What spells are you thinking of after reading the guide? Are you getting scrolls? And why do you want to go through the ENTIRE dungeon? Just go for your goal at minimum risk. That's how wizards do it.

What polymorph or whatever forms are you going to be in?

[The-Mage-King]

Okay, at level 1, after racial mods, before age mods, you had that? That's 30 point buy. Lower your dex some and increase your con to 16, make sure to get that 16 con pre age penalties.

Also try statting out your character here:

http://www.pathguy.com/cg35.htm

Listen, I did that. I checked it twice. Using two different point buy calculators.

[AslanCross]

At Lv 20, you've pretty much got it made. It'd have been more of a challenge if you started at Lv 1.

[nedz]

OK - Doing this the old fashioned way, numbers in [] are with the Gray Elf racial mods removed
STR: 9[11] 3
DEX: 13[11] 3
CON: 14[16] 10
INT: 20[18] 16
WIS: 8 0
CHA: 8 0

Total 32 Points

[Gavinfoxx]

OK - Doing this the old fashioned way, numbers in [] are with the Gray Elf racial mods removed
STR: 9[11] 3
DEX: 13[11] 3
CON: 14[16] 10
INT: 20[18] 16
WIS: 8 0
CHA: 8 0

Total 32 Points

+5 to int for levelling mods
-2 to physical stats from middle aged and old
+2 to mental stats for middle aged and old.

And, if you wanna be level 19 rather than 20, you can add a few inherent mods from wishes, purchased with full xp cost.

And. Oh, right, I missed something with the gray elf stuff...

they're -2 con, -2 str, +2 dex, +2 int, right? Gyah, hate that con penalty. I'd sooo play a human who isn't old. Just have that 16 con, yaknow?

[jiriku]

I need gear, though.

No, not really. If you must fidget around with gear, get Boccob's blessed book, Heward's handy haversack, the quiver of Ehlonna, and a couple rings of wizardry or a handful of pearls of power. You're going to spend your whole day shapeshifted (choker is nice, for the extra action), so you aren't terribly interested in traditional combat gear.


I suspect that the guy who this challenge is being made at is going to dislike the strategy of gathering mooks before attacking.

Going all by yourself is for feebleminded wizards. Tell him, "I have class features that give me minions. Nigh-unlimited minions. Minions that are even more powerful than *I* am. You don't. That's part of the reason my class pwns." Then gate in a great wyrm celestial golden dragon and crush all before you. Just to drive home the point.

As soon as he starts in with the "You can't use that spell because it's unsportsmanlike", tell him that if he starts restricting your available spells, you're going to require that he not use his feats.

[The-Mage-King]

+5 to int for levelling mods
-2 to physical stats from middle aged and old
+2 to mental stats for middle aged and old.

And, if you wanna be level 19 rather than 20, you can add a few inherent mods from wishes, purchased with full xp cost.

And. Oh, right, I missed something with the gray elf stuff...

they're -2 con, -2 str, +2 dex, +2 int, right? Gyah, hate that con penalty. I'd sooo play a human who isn't old. Just have that 16 con, yaknow?

No, it's -3 to physical stats for old. Not -2.

[Gavinfoxx]

No, it's -3 to physical stats for old. Not -2.

I thought they only started...

Oh heck. I am not at the top of my game today.

Why is he old and an elf again? You REALLY need con as high as possible...

STR: 9[11] 3
DEX: 13[11] 3
CON: 14[16] 10
INT: 20[18] 16
WIS: 8 0
CHA: 8 0

str: 11 - 2 racial - 3 age = 6
dex 11 + 2 racial - 3 age = 10
con 16 - 2 racial - 3 age = 11
int 18 + 2 racial + 2 age + 5 levelling = 27
wis 8 + 2 age = 10
cha 8 + 2 age = 10

I would MUCH MUCH MUCH rather have this:

human
str 8
dex 14
con 16
int 23
wis 8
cha 8

[Re'ozul]

My biggest question would be, what makes anyone think the guy who posed the challenge won't just shift goalposts and go: "But at first level...". A well made Wizard can hold his own somewhat at low low levels, but its a lot harder.

[The-Mage-King]

My biggest question would be, what makes anyone think the guy who posed the challenge won't just shift goalposts and go: "But at first level...". A well made Wizard can hold his own somewhat at low low levels, but its a lot harder.

Because I'm the one who made the challenge. And I specified level 20 as the point to demonstrate.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I don't think minion-mancy would be the best option, as IME the kind of people like the one TMK mentioned will say something along the lines of "But it was the SOLAR who did the dungeon crawl; not the wizard" so it is something to think about.

So... I suggest looking at other options such as save or suck and metamagicked spells. Acid fog, cloudkill... Walls of force. Oh don't forget about rope trick, it will be essential for resting as since you are going to go solo, you can't use spells as sparingly as you could with a Party (all those spells that make encounters irrelevant? well you need a way to shave off those pesky HP of the monsters... confusion and dominate might help)

[Yuki Akuma]

I think you're somewhat missing the point. Wizards really can't adventure without a party. Nor did Logic Ninja claim that they could.

How did you get to level 20 without a party, exactly?

[The_Jackal]

The point isn't to explain how you got there, the point is to explain how once you're there, you're the Alpha and the Omega.

[JeminiZero]

Before you even walk into the dang dungeon you've gotta get your basics right: you should never walk into a dungeon in person if you can help it. Instead, you should be using Supernatural Astral Projection with a Nightmare Simulacra from a secure genesis demiplane.

After that, 4x castings of Shapechange at level 20, will last 800 minutes or 13+ hours. That should be enough to see you through your typical adventuring day. Keep in mind that unlike Wildshape, Shapechange lets you retain whatever you gear are wearing provided it is compatible with your new form.

[jiriku]

Keep in mind that unlike Wildshape, Shapechange lets you retain whatever you gear are wearing provided it is compatible with your new form.

Oh, I hadn't known that. Well, gear just got interesting again. I'd say the obvious is a +5 ring of resistance and +5 cloak of protection. A minor cloak of displacement is handy as well. The principle here is that because you don't have PCs to draw fire for you, you want to make attacking you an essentially pointless exercise.

Likewise, don't neglect spell staples like mind blank, protection from evil, and protection from energy to provide yourself with broad-spectrum immunity to common forms of attack. Be willing to shapechange into a forms that provide defenses specific to the attacks of your current opponents: incorporeal, plant and ooze forms are especially resistant to harm.

JZ is right on the money with the principle that you shouldn't risk your person until you've eliminated or controlled all variables that could result in your non-victory. The key difference between T1 characters and their lessers is that while most characters attempt to succeed in 100% of the situation they find themselves in, the T1 character attempts to place himself in a situation in which he will succeed 100% of the time. Use aforementioned divinations, scouting minions, and perhaps charm magic to gain total knowledge of the situation, then use greater teleport or greater plane shift, et. al. to place yourself in the proper location, then use BC magic to sculpt the situation to your desire, then beat down the enemy with charmed and summoned minions, SoD, SoL, SoS, and direct damage.

[Waker]

Though I wouldn't suggest this as a default option, sometimes you should throw everyone off by using some transmutation spells such as Shapechange on your familiar (via Share Spells) to do silly things like turning your little toad familiar into an Iron Golem. Bonus points if you buff up said familiar with spells beforehand so you can have a Flying, Displaced Iron Golem.
Bear in mind that this doesn't negate your familiars low hp, but it sure does serve as an excellent surprise.