Question from nongamer

[pasadenajones]

Question from a non DnD player, from what I understand an epic level person has reached 20th or 21st level and at that point obtains godlike sorts of powers correct?

We don’t know that Tarquin is epic. But we don’t know that he isn’t epic either correct? He seems to have the accoutrements of an epic level fighter, such as a pet dragon, a huge army, an empire, and a ton of magic items. Is it too much of a stretch to assume that he might be an epic level fighter, in the same way one might assume a fat ugly bald guy that has a Ferrari and a supermodel wife is a millionaire?

And final question is it possible for an epic level fighter (Tarquin) or thief (Serini) to beat an epic level sorcerer (Xykon) or at that level is sorcerer the dominate class to have? Assuming of course that Tarquin and Serini are approximately Xykon’s level for purpose of this hypothetical?

[The Dark Fiddler]

Question from a non DnD player, from what I understand an epic level person has reached 20th or 21st level and at that point obtains godlike sorts of powers correct?

Well, the specific powers you get vary a lot, but even before then the potential to have godlike powers shows up. Theoretical ways to have infinite wealth abound by level 10, if I recall correctly. A specific character with the ability to give himself any ability he wants forever is possible at level one, though the exact validity of it under the rules is debated.


We don’t know that Tarquin is epic. But we don’t know that he isn’t epic either correct? He seems to have the accoutrements of an epic level fighter, such as a pet dragon, a huge army, an empire, and a ton of magic items. Is it too much of a stretch to assume that he might be an epic level fighter, in the same way one might assume a fat ugly bald guy that has a Ferrari and a supermodel wife is a millionaire?

It probably is. If Tarquin was epic, we'd know it, because that's an incredibly big deal in this world. The Order, being in the mid-teens, are already among some of the most powerful people.


And final question is it possible for an epic level fighter (Tarquin) or thief (Serini) to beat an epic level sorcerer (Xykon) or at that level is sorcerer the dominate class to have? Assuming of course that Tarquin and Serini are approximately Xykon’s level for purpose of this hypothetical?

Way too many factors to be sure, though in D&D 3.5, which the comic runs off of (with a healthy helping of plot, of course), magic is generally superior to non-magic.

[LOTRfan]

Assuming, of course, that they are all equal level, I'd assume Xykon would win. In the higher tier of the game, magic-users of all kinds are generally better than your standard muggle. Coupled with the fact that undead are immune to sneak attacks, Serini has has lost her main advantage over low hit point creatures.

A decently optimized epic fighter may be able to kill an unoptimized epic sorcerer, but I doubt it. Individually, either two are mincemeat for Xykon.

[pasadenajones]

I suppose part of my question would be how would one tell if a fighter is epic or not. Or what distinguishes an epic fighter from a non-epic one? The spellcasters get the hyper-powered spells, (famlicide, epic-teleport etc) what do fighters or thieves get and how would you know in the comic?

[Thanatosia]

We simply have no way of gauging Tarquin's level at this time.... anything we can say is pure speculation. I think it's very safe to say he's at least mid-level (10+), but beyond that, there's just no evidence for or against anything else.... the power base he has accumulated does not require higher character levels to obtain, especially in the way he's obtained it. You could make an argument that in a D&D world he would have to be very high level, epic or bordering on it, to have made as many enemies as he probably has and still be alive, but that could also just be handled through excessive cunning.

As for a hypothetical Epic Fighter vs Epic Sorc fight, in my experience it tends to be fairly easy for very high level characters who does not rely on magic to negate magical powers. Antimagic fields can be obtained in any number of ways for an epic character, and as the ABD shows, a caster in an AMF vs a character with high melee potency does not tend to fair well. Xykon is considerably less squishy then most casters because of his lich template, but he still won't be a match against an epic fighter sans magic. Now, this works both ways, and there are diffinately lots of magical means to negate a fighers melee capabilities too - i'm just saying that epic caster vs epic fighter is not some sort of forgone conclusion, it usually comes down to which side is more prepared for the confrontation.

[Morthis]

The dragon follower, army, etc does not require being epic level at all. Most rulers don't even have PC class levels.

In general, neither an epic level fighter or thief will fare very well against spellcasting classes. While sorcs aren't generally considered as powerful as wizards, they're still lightyears ahead of something like a fighter or a rogue. I mean just the fact that Xykon flies could be enough of an issue, I'm not even sure what fighters or thieves could do the reach him with just plain 3.5 rules.

Edit:

As for a hypothetical Epic Fighter vs Epic Sorc fight, in my experience it tends to be fairly easy for very high level characters who does not rely on magic to negate magical powers. Antimagic fields can be obtained in any number of ways for an epic character, and as the ABD shows, a caster in an AMF vs a character with high melee potency does not tend to fair well. Xykon is considerably less squishy then most casters because of his lich template, but he still won't be a match against an epic fighter sans magic. Now, this works both ways, and there are diffinately lots of magical means to negate a fighers melee capabilities too - i'm just saying that epic caster vs epic fighter is not some sort of forgone conclusion, it usually comes down to which side is more prepared for the confrontation.

The ABD can use AMF because it can cast it, while also being a powerful melee fighter. A fighter wouldn't be able to do this, I'm not sure what means they would have available. Either way, if Xykon was flying out of range of the AMF, it wouldn't affect him (although he wouldn't be able to cast into it), and epic spells have a fairly good chance of ignoring AMF entirely. Even with an AMF, if Xykon has any epic level transportation spells he could simply escape the AMF, and if he has any epic level killing spells he could still kill a fighter hiding inside an AMF.

[doodthedud]

I suppose part of my question would be how would one tell if a fighter is epic or not. Or what distinguishes an epic fighter from a non-epic one? The spellcasters get the hyper-powered spells, (famlicide, epic-teleport etc) what do fighters or thieves get and how would you know in the comic?

Devastating Critical for fighters (and other melee) I think? It's like a roll to insta-die on a crit or something. I forget.

[Thanatosia]

The dragon follower, army, etc does not require being epic level at all. Most rulers don't even have PC class levels.

In general, neither an epic level fighter or thief will fare very well against spellcasting classes. While sorcs aren't generally considered as powerful as wizards, they're still lightyears ahead of something like a fighter or a rogue. I mean just the fact that Xykon flies could be enough of an issue, I'm not even sure what fighters or thieves could do the reach him with just plain 3.5 rules.
I don't know what game you are playing, but if you reach epic levels as a fighter and have not gained at least half a dozen ways to negate a flying opponent in that time there is something very wrong. At the very least you don't need to be a spellcaster to use a flying potion, Righteye was not anywhere near epic and even he could handle that easily.

Any high level character, especially an epic one, is way more then a mere wad of hp, hit bonuses, and combat feats.

[Morthis]

I don't know what game you are playing, but if you reach epic levels as a fighter and have not gained at least half a dozen ways to negate a flying opponent in that time there is something very wrong. At the very least you don't need to be a spellcaster to use a flying potion, Righteye was not anywhere near epic and even he could handle that easily.

Any high level character, especially an epic one, is way more then a mere wad of hp, hit bonuses, and combat feats.

Well, any kind of fly effect on the fighter could simply be dispelled. Beyond that, I honestly don't know what kind of ways fighters have to negate flying enemies.

[pasadenajones]

What would be a good way to determine Tarquin's level?

I gather that people on the forum assume Serini is on the level of the other scribbilers because presumable she was leveling up with them.

Is it a fairly good assumption that Tarquin is the same level as Lizgreaper?

[The Dark Fiddler]

I suppose part of my question would be how would one tell if a fighter is epic or not. Or what distinguishes an epic fighter from a non-epic one? The spellcasters get the hyper-powered spells, (famlicide, epic-teleport etc) what do fighters or thieves get and how would you know in the comic?

Pretty much no way, all fighters get in epic level is more HP and the ability to hit better, really. You'd mostly have to rely on them having stuff you couldn't afford pre-epic, and even that's not a forgone conclusion, especially not with Tarquin who has access to the treasury and land of an entire nation.

[Morthis]

What would be a good way to determine Tarquin's level?

I gather that people on the forum assume Serini is on the level of the other scribbilers because presumable she was leveling up with them.

Is it a fairly good assumption that Tarquin is the same level as Lizgreaper?

Seeing how many attacks he has per round would give us a rough indicator. It's a bit easier with spellcasters there since you just need to see what their highest level spell used was (assuming they do use some of the highest level spells they have available).

[QDI]

Hum, even at level 16-20 a fighter has absolutely no chance in a fair fight against a spellcaster.

Broken things like Contingency, Time Stop, Mage's Disjunction, Gate, Shapechange let no chance to a non spellcaster.

At Epic levels, it is worse.



Is it a fairly good assumption that Tarquin is the same level as Lizgreaper?

Yes, I think. :)

[pasadenajones]

So in summary, this is what im taking away from the thread.

Being epic is way cooler for spellcasters than for non spellcasters.

Tarquins toys are a bad way to guess at his level. The best way to guess at his level would be to assume he is same as spellcasting party members and see what they cast.

Even if Tarquin or Serini were on same level as Xykon they couldn't beat him in anything resembling a fair fight.

[John Cribati]

So in summary, this is what im taking away from the thread.

Being epic is way cooler for spellcasters than for non spellcasters.

Tarquins toys are a bad way to guess at his level. The best way to guess at his level would be to assume he is same as spellcasting party members and see what they cast.

Even if Tarquin or Serini were on same level as Xykon they couldn't beat him in anything resembling a fair fight.

Correct all around.

... I think this is the first time since I've been on the Playground that we've had a logical discussion and resolution of a theory that was semi-plausible to begin with.

[Gray Mage]

So in summary, this is what im taking away from the thread.

Being epic any level is way cooler for spellcasters than for non spellcasters.


Fixe'd that for you. :smallcool:


Tarquins toys are a bad way to guess at his level. The best way to guess at his level would be to assume he is same as spellcasting party members and see what they cast.


There are other ways. Some feats need pre-requisites, so that way we could find a minimun level, or by class features, since it's not certain what his class is yet.



Even if Tarquin or Serini were on same level as Xykon they couldn't beat him in anything resembling a fair fight.

That's about right.

[Sanguine]

Question from a non DnD player, from what I understand an epic level person has reached 20th or 21st level and at that point obtains godlike sorts of powers correct?

As Roy points out in this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html) epic starts at 21st level.

[pasadenajones]

That was the comic I was asking about, Haley and Celia seemed to think it was 20 and Roy 21.

[Sanguine]

That was the comic I was asking about, Haley and Celia seemed to think it was 20 and Roy 21.

Roy's right. There is nothing particularly special about level 20.

Edit: Except that it's the end of none epic progression.

[pasadenajones]

Roy's right. There is nothing particularly special about level 20.

Thanks, that clears that up. Looks like we have several characters hovering near the end of non-epic progression, Bozzok for one since he is at least 4 levels higher than Haley, but as a nonspellcaster I suppose it doesn't matter all that much. People seem to think that Redcloak is around that level too. I was wondering for a while if perhaps we would see a bunch of characters advance in level over the Epic-limit line or whatever and the comic evolve into some sort of twilight of the gods scenario.

[The Dark Fiddler]

There are other ways. Some feats need pre-requisites, so that way we could find a minimun level, or by class features, since it's not certain what his class is yet.

The problem being that the large majority of feats are far from obvious. How do you tell if somebody has Toughness, or Iron Will, or Improved Initiative?

[G-Man Graves]

Devastating Critical for fighters (and other melee) I think? It's like a roll to insta-die on a crit or something. I forget.

Irrelevant in this case, as lichs are immune to crits.

[Gray Mage]

The problem being that the large majority of feats are far from obvious. How do you tell if somebody has Toughness, or Iron Will, or Improved Initiative?

This is why I said some.

[KillItWithFire]

I don't think that Tarquin is epic simply because in every version of epic rules that I have read you need to perform an act of some magnitude in order to gain the right to pass from 20 to 21. For the scribble that would be their locking away of the snarl. In Tarquin's case, the most impressive thing we've seen him do so far is handily beat Elan in combat when his one advantage was negated. Since bards don't have the best combat abilities I wouldn't be surprised if Tarquin was of an equal level as Elan (14 -15ish) but I am slow to say much higher.

As far as the epic martial vs epic caster debate, I agree with whoever it was that said that it depends on who's more prepared, except the martial guy has to do A LOT more preparing. Once they get to epic levels casters have at least like, 4 spells to deal with any kind of situation. They're still d4 hit die though and an assassin's death attack can still get them if they blow the save or are unprepared for it. (Oh wait, Lich...)

...OK Epic caster with Lich template, it would take more than one epic martial character I don't care how prepared he is.

[John Cribati]

Fixe'd that for you. :smallcool:

Not really. I mean, a level 1 Spellcaster would get owned by a Level 1... Anything that's decently optimized.

[Sanguine]

I don't think that Tarquin is epic simply because in every version of epic rules that I have read you need to perform an act of some magnitude in order to gain the right to pass from 20 to 21. For the scribble that would be their locking away of the snarl. In Tarquin's case, the most impressive thing we've seen him do so far is handily beat Elan in combat when his one advantage was negated. Since bards don't have the best combat abilities I wouldn't be surprised if Tarquin was of an equal level as Elan (14 -15ish) but I am slow to say much higher.

As far as the epic martial vs epic caster debate, I agree with whoever it was that said that it depends on who's more prepared, except the martial guy has to do A LOT more preparing. Once they get to epic levels casters have at least like, 4 spells to deal with any kind of situation. They're still d4 hit die though and an assassin's death attack can still get them if they blow the save or are unprepared for it. (Oh wait, Lich...)

...OK Epic caster with Lich template, it would take more than one epic martial character I don't care how prepared he is.

I may be wrong on this point but I'm pretty sure the Scribble were Epic before they finished there quest to seal the rifts.


Not really. I mean, a level 1 Spellcaster would get owned by a Level 1... Anything that's decently optimized.

At level 1 Wiz/Sorcs have access to a Save or Lose vs level 4 or belows.

[Gray Mage]

Not really. I mean, a level 1 Spellcaster would get owned by a Level 1... Anything that's decently optimized.

There are some great 1st level spells. Who gets owned is more likely up to who loses initiative.

[Cerlis]

generally speaking epic level physical characters start being epic by doing mystical things in physical ways. Using balance to walk on water, using escape artist to pass through physical walls. surviving a spell that should have killed you (I think there are feats out there that are like If you would die from losing a save you may instead lose 100 hit points, once per day).

They arent as "epic" as epic casters, but their physical self starts being superhuman

I think Tarquinn is high up there, but other than avoiding assassins, the only thing that Tarquinn has done was survive the war and survive elan (which i guess includes assassins). you dont need a high diplomacy/bluff check to get people on your side if you ask the right people. Most of tarquinns power has been gained through good roleplaying. We see that Elan was able to almost match him in swordplay, Tarquinn wasnt threatened at all but Elan was hardly some mook mindlessly thrusting at him. he was also hit by a lucky hit by some Amun Zora. I think it would be safest to assume he is maybe lvl 16-20 (The party is 14ish as most believe)

best evidence we have though is Rogue, fighter, wizard and Cleric are the 4 main classes, the most likely to have high level characters. Haley once said in frustration she doupts if there are even any lvl 17 clerics, and even if Belkar's drunken guess was correct, they are few and far between. I think Tarquinn is one of the few and far between characters who have reached lvl 17 ish

and if Roys ex party where he met durkon and the evil party that attacked Roy in the afterlife are any indication, most adventurers are idiots who dont get as far as our heros and most high level characters (the characters they are dealing with now) are NPCs or villians or rivals.

[pasadenajones]

I don't think that Tarquin is epic simply because in every version of epic rules that I have read you need to perform an act of some magnitude in order to gain the right to pass from 20 to 21. For the scribble that would be their locking away of the snarl. In Tarquin's case, the most impressive thing we've seen him do so far is handily beat Elan in combat when his one advantage was negated.

Perhaps Tarquin's first failed conquest of the western lands was an attempt to do such an act of magnitude. Could he be stuck at level 20 now?

[KillItWithFire]

Perhaps Tarquin's first failed conquest of the western lands was an attempt to do such an act of magnitude. Could he be stuck at level 20 now?

Considering the very same attempt was made with similar results by nearly a dozen warlords before him? No I don't think so. I don't think Tarquin is even at level 20 yet. As the poster above mentioned most of Tarquin's power comes not from his combat ability but from his resources and the fact that he's brilliant when it comes to applying them. My guess still stands at high teens, probably 17 or so. I doubt he has much chance for level gain now that he does not engage in much combat. That being said, I'm not even sure OOTS is even running with the "act of magnitude" rule as I've still never found any indication for when Xykon became epic.


I may be wrong on this point but I'm pretty sure the Scribble were Epic before they finished there quest to seal the rifts.


First indication I see of the scribble being epic is Dorukon's cloister after the rifts are sealed and their defense is the last item on the table. If you can find an earlier gauge of their power I'd be happy to see it.

[QDI]

That being said, I'm not even sure OOTS is even running with the "act of magnitude" rule as I've still never found any indication for when Xykon became epic.


Could you tell me where you found that rule? I looked at the DMG but without success.

[Drynwyn]

Devastating Critical for fighters (and other melee) I think? It's like a roll to insta-die on a crit or something. I forget.

Meanwhile, his wizard friend has been able to do that since level 13 WITHOUT a critical hit.

[Thanatosia]

Could you tell me where you found that rule? I looked at the DMG but without success.
Pretty sure it's a strictly optional rule, even in the Epic Level handbook, by default all you need to go from lv20 to epic is enough xp to gain a level.

[KillItWithFire]

Found it (In complete arcane of all places). Thanatosia's right it's optional only, my mistake (I still prefer it, epic should mean more than just higher than level 20). Even without this rule in place I still don't think Tarquin is epic, he simply hasn't displayed a degree of power I would associate with an epic level fighter.

[Razgriez]

My answers shall be in blue


Question from a non DnD player, from what I understand an epic level person has reached 20th or 21st level and at that point obtains godlike sorts of powers correct?
Sort of. It really depends on the character's class or classes. Epic character levels is more of a gauge of Total power available

Think of Class levels, as glorified skill ranks. When your character levels up in 3.0/3.5 DnD, what you essentially get in a nut shell, is 1 "point" to spend in "Skill: Class type". And it works in similar way to how you really want to focus on a select group of key skills, with maybe a few side skills to have. This also means, it's possible but hard and requires a certain level of stupid nearly impossible to suffer from, to have an "Epic Level" character, who's absolutely terrible, and could quite possibly be crushed by a lower level party. (Such as if you were to take only a few levels, in every class you could, such as only 3 levels at most per class)

We don’t know that Tarquin is epic. But we don’t know that he isn’t epic either correct? He seems to have the accoutrements of an epic level fighter, such as a pet dragon, a huge army, an empire, and a ton of magic items. Is it too much of a stretch to assume that he might be an epic level fighter, in the same way one might assume a fat ugly bald guy that has a Ferrari and a supermodel wife is a millionaire?
Could he be epic? Possibly, but don't judge a characters total level by his or her possessions. In DnD, there are various other factors, that can make even lower level foes much tougher. In the Red Hand of Doom campaign book, the Red Hand, is approximately a 4000+ Hobgoblin sized army (quite large, for a medieval period force). And that's not counting the dragons, ogres, giants, and other nasty creatures also a part of this horde. Their leader? an 11th level Half Blue Dragon Hobgoblin Cleric of Tiamat. He's done so well, that Tiamat has seen fit to reward him in various ways, including some dragon related gear, and oh yes.. two fallen angel turned devils, Eryines to provide him with pleasure when he needs it. Oh I should mention, his pre-written battle plan, is designed to not only force a party to try and dispel a truck load of buff spells, he's also set up for the final battle, with plenty of defensive spells as well to really ruin the party's day. A party of equal level characters most likely to boot as well

But chances are, Tarquin is probably somewhere in the 16+ range of Character levels, maybe 20. Who knows.

And final question is it possible for an epic level fighter (Tarquin) or thief (Serini) to beat an epic level sorcerer (Xykon) or at that level is sorcerer the dominate class to have? Assuming of course that Tarquin and Serini are approximately Xykon’s level for purpose of this hypothetical?
Depends. Roy managed to beat Xykon himself remember?And that was after the OotS primary strategy of using a temporary Disruption enhancement to Roy's sword got ruined, along with Roy's sword. This of course, had the side effect of pressing's Roy's "berserk button" for story purposes, and throw Xykon into the gate for instant death.

Xykon was also almost defeated during the Battle of Azure City, when Soon's epic level paladin ghost, and his army of Spirit Paladin martyrs managed to combine the classic "Death via a thousand tiny bites/needles" combined with some good ol' fashion, Smite Evil abilities... Errr Until Miko messed things up.

A Soul spliced Vaarsuvius also managed to give Xykon a run for his money... until V's pride and ego got in the way (oh yea, poor saves as well too). Although it did give O-Chul another shot at the phylactery... which... kinda worked.
Does Tarquin stand a chance against Xykon? Possible, but unlikely. Tarquin works more as a manipulator behind the scenes.

[H Birchgrove]

Sorry if I digress from the topic at hand, but I wonder: If you multi-class, lets say Rogue/Fighter, can your PC be an epic level Rogue and have 5 levels in Fighter? Or does the act of multi-classing make you unable to reach Epic levels; when you have your 5 levels in Fighter, you can only reach 16 levels in Rogue?

[SaintRidley]

First indication I see of the scribble being epic is Dorukon's cloister after the rifts are sealed and their defense is the last item on the table. If you can find an earlier gauge of their power I'd be happy to see it.

Start of Darkness.
Redcloak notes that they could re-seal Lirian's rift and use it but that would require epic magic to pull off. Xykon then reveals there are other gates.

[factotum]

Sorry if I digress from the topic at hand, but I wonder: If you multi-class, lets say Rogue/Fighter, can your PC be an epic level Rogue and have 5 levels in Fighter? Or does the act of multi-classing make you unable to reach Epic levels; when you have your 5 levels in Fighter, you can only reach 16 levels in Rogue?

You appear to be under the impression that level 21 is an upper limit and no-one can level beyond that, which is not the case--there's nothing stopping a character with 5 levels in rogue later getting 21 levels in fighter. I'm unclear on when exactly such a character would become epic, though (e.g. would a rogue 5/fighter 16 count as epic because they are character level 21, or would they have to achieve level 21 in a single class first?).

[Yendor]

I'm unclear on when exactly such a character would become epic, though (e.g. would a rogue 5/fighter 16 count as epic because they are character level 21, or would they have to achieve level 21 in a single class first?).

To the SRD! (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/basics.htm)


Epic characters—those whose character level is 21st or higher—are handled slightly differently from nonepic characters.

That seems pretty clear.

[TheProfessor]

I don't think that Tarquin is epic simply because in every version of epic rules that I have read you need to perform an act of some magnitude in order to gain the right to pass from 20 to 21. For the scribble that would be their locking away of the snarl. In Tarquin's case, the most impressive thing we've seen him do so far is handily beat Elan in combat when his one advantage was negated. Since bards don't have the best combat abilities I wouldn't be surprised if Tarquin was of an equal level as Elan (14 -15ish) but I am slow to say much higher.

As far as the epic martial vs epic caster debate, I agree with whoever it was that said that it depends on who's more prepared, except the martial guy has to do A LOT more preparing. Once they get to epic levels casters have at least like, 4 spells to deal with any kind of situation. They're still d4 hit die though and an assassin's death attack can still get them if they blow the save or are unprepared for it. (Oh wait, Lich...)

...OK Epic caster with Lich template, it would take more than one epic martial character I don't care how prepared he is.

So would conquering an entire continent be considered an epic feat?

[H Birchgrove]

To the SRD! (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/basics.htm)



That seems pretty clear.

Thanks factotum and Yendor! :smallbiggrin:

[H Birchgrove]

So would conquering an entire continent be considered an epic feat?

Well, he had help from his friends...

[Pisha]

Coupled with the fact that undead are immune to sneak attacks, Serini has has lost her main advantage over low hit point creatures.


My epic-level rogue begs to differ. Heck, the items that let you sneak attack and/or critical undead aren't even that expensive; if you're a rogue and you haven't picked up at least one (and a couple more just in case) by level 21, there's really no excuse.

And that's the key, right there. Yes, magic users are innately more powerful than non-magic users, especially at higher levels. But the higher you go, the better toys you get. And while those toys won't necessarily equalize you, if you're clever they can give you a fighting chance. (Also - Use Magic Device is a class skill for rogues, and even fighters can get a decent amount of it by epic level if they want to. There are a few scrolls out there that make a very handy ace in the hole, especially if your enemy assumes you're just a dumb fighter and therefore doesn't expect any magic.)

[Gitman00]

My epic-level rogue begs to differ. Heck, the items that let you sneak attack and/or critical undead aren't even that expensive; if you're a rogue and you haven't picked up at least one (and a couple more just in case) by level 21, there's really no excuse.

And that's the key, right there. Yes, magic users are innately more powerful than non-magic users, especially at higher levels. But the higher you go, the better toys you get. And while those toys won't necessarily equalize you, if you're clever they can give you a fighting chance. (Also - Use Magic Device is a class skill for rogues, and even fighters can get a decent amount of it by epic level if they want to. There are a few scrolls out there that make a very handy ace in the hole, especially if your enemy assumes you're just a dumb fighter and therefore doesn't expect any magic.)

Here's the main reason non-spellcasters fail in pure optimization: All combat builds require magic items to compete with spellcasters. All magic items are created by spellcasters. Therefore, your rogue wouldn't have a prayer at high levels without at least indirect help from a caster. However, in actual play, that only matters if your GM is running a low-magic campaign (i.e. magic items are hard to get). Most GMs are sensible enough to allow their players the magical equipment they need.

Realistically, magic items should be extremely rare, since they cost XP to make. No wizard would be able to run a business making magic items, because he'd have to keep adventuring to gain back the XP. Only an actively adventuring wizard would be able to keep crafting, and it would only be practical to make the items he needs for himself and his party.

[KillItWithFire]

So would conquering an entire continent be considered an epic feat?

I'd call it borderline. He lost the thing pretty quickly and while it seems he got further than most, he also was not universally acclaimed for it and the rest of the comic didn't make it seem like conquering western nations was that difficult a task. Anyway that's just my opinion. Still impressive though.

[Ranzear]

How to beat an epic spellcaster:

Get Artifact from your deity, have it enchanted with AMF. Let the poor bugger Disjunction it and sit back to enjoy the smiting.

[rekuu]

As for a hypothetical Epic Fighter vs Epic Sorc fight, in my experience it tends to be fairly easy for very high level characters who does not rely on magic to negate magical powers. Antimagic fields can be obtained in any number of ways for an epic character, and as the ABD shows, a caster in an AMF vs a character with high melee potency does not tend to fair well.

As an avid player of spell casters, I would like take a moment to tell you a few ways to deal with those silly mundane stick tossers who happen to think AMF will help them.

Shrink Object. A simple 3rd level spell you can toss on a wand and forget. The object is not forever changed, but magicly kept small, and reverts to its normal size with a command word- or when something stops the magic from functioning.

The simple minded will just shrink down a house and keep it around for a rainy day.

The clever caster may keep a bolder shrunk to pocket size for blocking narrow corridors behind him.

What happens when you fly 2,000 feet above an anti-magic field and drop a few hundred shrunken house sized rocks onto some muggle with and anti-magic field? Bring it on, guy with a stick.