[3.5] New fighter feats: Veteran feats

[Chronos]

Veteran feats

Veteran feats all scale with a number called the veteran count. A character's veteran count is the number of feats that character has which can be taken as fighter bonus feats. A feat counts regardless of whether it was taken as a fighter, or in a normal feat slot, or as a bonus feat from some other class or source. A feat which requires the use of a particular type of weapon (such as Weapon Focus) counts towards the character's veteran count only when using an appropriate weapon. All veteran feats can be taken as fighter bonus feats, and so themselves count towards the veteran count.

Unless specified otherwise, use of a veteran feat requires that the character be wielding a weapon (including unarmed strike, if the character has Improved Unarmed Strike, but not including spells or supernatural touch attacks), and must be in melee with or within 30' of the target. Some veteran feats offer saving throws: Unless otherwise specified, the DC is 10 + veteran count + Str modifier. All veteran feats are extraordinary abilities.

Awesome Flourish:

Your varied fighting skills can strike fear in lesser opponents

Prerequisite: Cha 13, Veteran count 8

Benefit: Whenever you succeed with a critical hit against an opponent, all opponents able to see you and with lower CR than your target must make a Will save (DC 10 + veteran count + Cha modifier) or be frightened for a number of rounds equal to your veteran count. Creatures that are already frightened are instead panicked.

This feat is a mind-affecting fear ability


Confounding Blow:

Your blows can render your opponents senseless

Prerequisite: Veteran count 6, Weapon Focus (any bludgeoning weapon)

Benefit: Whenever you threaten a critical hit with a bludgeoning weapon against an opponent, that opponent must make a Will save or take 2 points of Wis damage (this damage is multiplied if you confirm the critical hit).


Crippling Attack:

Your attacks can damage your opponent's muscles and sinews

Prerequisite: Veteran count 6, Weapon Focus (any slashing weapon)

Benefit: Whenever you threaten a critical hit with a slashing weapon against an opponent, that opponent must make a Fort save or take 2 points of Str damage (this damage is multiplied if you confirm the critical hit).


Demoralizing Strike:

Your attacks strike at an opponent's sense of self-confidence

Prerequisite: Veteran count 6, Weapon Focus (any slashing weapon)

Benefit: Whenever you threaten a critical hit with a slashing weapon against an opponent, that opponent must make a Will save or take 2 points of Cha damage (this damage is multiplied if you confirm the critical hit).


Hampering Attack:

Your attacks can render an opponent clumsy

Prerequisite: Veteran count 6, Weapon Focus (any piercing weapon)

Benefit: Whenever you threaten a critical hit with a piercing weapon against an opponent, that opponent must make a Ref save or take 2 points of Dex damage (this damage is multiplied if you confirm the critical hit).


Penetrating Attack:

Your attacks can penetrate your target's defenses

Benefit: When attacking a target with hardness or damage reduction (other than DR/epic), you ignore a number of points of hardness or damage reduction equal to your veteran count.


Stupefying Strike:

Your attacks hamper your target's ability to think clearly

Prerequisite: Veteran count 6, Weapon Focus (any bludgeoning weapon)

Benefit: Whenever you threaten a critical hit with a bludgeoning weapon against an opponent, that opponent must make a Will save or take 2 points of Int damage (this damage is multiplied if you confirm the critical hit).


Veteran Critical:

Your combat training includes ways to make sure your strongest blows are effective

Prerequisite: Improved Critical (any)

Benefit: You add your veteran count as a bonus to rolls made to confirm critical hits.


Veteran Dodge:

You can use your variety of combat skills to better avoid blows

Prerequisite: veteran count 3, Dodge

Benefit: When you use your Dodge feat, the bonus to AC you gain is equal to your veteran count instead of +1


Veteran Expertise:

You can more effectively use your fighting skill for other purposes

Prerequisite: Veteran count 4, Combat Expertise or Power Attack

Benefit: When you use a feat (such as Combat Expertise or Power Attack) that lets you take a penalty to attack rolls in exchange for some other benefit, the maximum penalty you are allowed to take is increased by your veteran count. For example, if you have a BAB of +4 and a veteran count of 6, you could use Combat Expertise to take a -10 penalty to attack rolls and gain +10 to AC.


Veteran Range:

Your varied combat skills let you make attacks with greater range

Prerequisite: Veteran count 5, Point Blank Shot

Benefit: Your maximum range with missile weapons is increased by a number of feet equal to 5 times your veteran count, and your maximum range with thrown weapons is increased by a number of feet equal to 2.5 times your veteran count. In both cases, range penalties continue to accrue for range increments beyond the normal maximum.

In addition, any feats or class abilities (such as sneak attack, Point Blank Shot, and most veteran feats) which work on targets within 30' have their range increased by a number of feet equal to twice your veteran count.


Wearying Blow:

Your blows are able to knock the wind out of an opponent

Benefit: Whenever you strike the same opponent twice in one round with a bludgeoning weapon, that opponent must make a Fort save or be fatigued for a number of rounds equal to your veteran count. If the target is already fatigued, it is instead exhausted.


Wounding Strike:

Your attacks can cause significant loss of blood

Prerequisite: Veteran count 6, Weapon Focus (any piercing weapon)

Benefit: Whenever you threaten a critical hit with a piercing weapon against an opponent, that opponent must make a Fort save or take 1 point of Con damage (this damage is multiplied if you confirm the critical hit).


Prestige class: Veteran Armsman


Hit Die: d12

Requirements: BAB +6, veteran count 6, Weapon Focus (any two)

Class skills: Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (Architecture and Engineering (Int), Knowledge (History) (Int), Listen (Wis), Ride (Dex), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str)
4 + Int modifier skills per level

{table=head]Level | BAB | Fort save | Ref save | Will save | Special
1 | +1 | +2 | +0 | +0 |
2 | +2 | +3 | +0 | +0 | Bonus veteran feat
3 | +3 | +3 | +1 | +1 |
4 | +4 | +4 | +1 | +1 | Bonus veteran feat
5 | +5 | +4 | +1 | +1 |
6 | +6 | +5 | +2 | +2 | Bonus veteran feat
7 | +7 | +5 | +2 | +2 |
8 | +8 | +6 | +2 | +2 | Bonus veteran feat
9 | +9 | +6 | +3 | +3 |
10 | +10 | +7 | +3 | +3 | Bonus veteran feat[/table]

At every even-numbered level, the Veteran Armsman gains a bonus feat, which may be used for any veteran feat for which the character meets the requirements.

[Demidos]

Nice concept!
The prestige class could use some more abilities though, its a bit....bare bones:smallwink:

[Aldgar]

The Prestige class is strictly worse than taking 10 levels of fighter...

[Cardea]

The Prestige class is strictly worse than taking 10 levels of fighter...
The feats are a nice idea, but yeah, Aldgar has a point here. Being a Fighter is already limited enough. Making a PrC that restricts what kind of bonus feat you can take even further is just bad.

[Qwertystop]

Are veteran feats also fighter bonus feats?

[Chronos]

Yes, veteran feats are also fighter bonus feats. That's covered in the unspoilered opening paragraphs.

And the PrC also gives more HP, more skill points, and a better skill list than straight Fighter. The idea is, if the next feat you're planning on taking is a veteran feat anyway (which will presumably sometimes be the case), then there's no reason not to choose the PrC over plain Fighter. The Weapon Focus prereqs are a bit of an opportunity cost, but the idea is that you're likely to take those to qualify for the ability damage feats, anyway.

Note also, BTW, that anyone can take these feats. They'll just be more effective for a fighter.

[Cardea]

Yes, veteran feats are also fighter bonus feats. That's covered in the unspoilered opening paragraphs.

And the PrC also gives more HP, more skill points, and a better skill list than straight Fighter. The idea is, if the next feat you're planning on taking is a veteran feat anyway (which will presumably sometimes be the case), then there's no reason not to choose the PrC over plain Fighter. The Weapon Focus prereqs are a bit of an opportunity cost, but the idea is that you're likely to take those to qualify for the ability damage feats, anyway.

Note also, BTW, that anyone can take these feats. They'll just be more effective for a fighter.
(More) limited feat selection, two more skill points per level, and a jump from a 5.5 average to a 6.5 average for health is still underwhelming. I'd still take some other PrC.

[Adamantrue]

If I was a Human Fighter, and took, say...3 Flaws, its possible for me to have a Veteran Count of 6 at 1st level. Higher if I'm allowed more Flaws.

Is that OK in your eyes, or is that taking it too far from what you intended?

[Ashtagon]

If I was a Human Fighter, and took, say...3 Flaws, its possible for me to have a Veteran Count of 6 at 1st level. Higher if I'm allowed more Flaws.

Is that OK in your eyes, or is that taking it too far from what you intended?

Well, except even the SRD says you can only ever have two flaws maximum.

[Adamantrue]

Oh, so it does. That's been relaxed in groups I've played with long enough that I completely forgot about it. Neat.

OK. Human Fighter 2 then? Or Human Fighter 1/Monk 2, with 2 Flaws (what's that, like 8 or 9 Feats at 3rd level, all of which I believe could qualify as Veteran Feats?

Not saying it's a bad thing, but just asking if that's a desired outcome.

[Chronos]

I'm of the school of thought that a prestige class should be judged against the base class-20, and that there should be arguments for both options. I know that there are many PrCs out there for which that isn't true, but I still think that's how it should be. But the PrC is mostly just an afterthought, anyway: I'm really more interested in feedback on the feats themselves.


If I was a Human Fighter, and took, say...3 Flaws, its possible for me to have a Veteran Count of 6 at 1st level. Higher if I'm allowed more Flaws.

Is that OK in your eyes, or is that taking it too far from what you intended? Even if I were ever inclined to allow flaws to begin with, I certainly wouldn't allow flaws and these feats in the same campaign. IMO, they're an optional rule that should be opted out of.

Now, something like fighter 2/psychic warrior 2/monk 2 I wouldn't have a problem with, since that still takes a while to reach an absurd number of feats, and it's probably optimizing for veteran count more than these feats really justify. Folks already have a hard enough time finding enough good feats to make straight fighter worthwhile.

[Rhyvurg]

Going by what I'm reading, if someone has, say, all of these feats and threatens a crit (and with an easy +19 to confirm the crit I don't see it failing) the target must save against all that ability damage individually, not to mention the +40 damage when power attacking and only -1 on your attack roll. At level 20, you could deal 150+ damage (doing crits that almost never fail to confirm) and force 6 saves against ability damage, and get +19 to AC to boot.

[Chronos]

...not to mention the +40 damage when power attacking and only -1 on your attack roll.I think you're misreading Veteran Expertise. It doesn't decrease the penalty you take; it lets you take a greater penalty. So without that feat, a 20th-level human fighter could take -20 on his attack roll to get +40 damage (assuming a two-handed weapon), whereas with that feat, he could (if he wanted) take -39 on his attack roll to get +78 damage (if he actually hit). Now, you could use (say) Power Attack, Combat Expertise, and Stone Power all for max, and just make the battle drag on forever and count on making your natural 20s count, but that would only work one-on-one, because if there was anyone else in the fight, they'd finish it long before that happened.

Besides, that's a level 20 character you're talking about. What this means is that a 20th level fighter can really ruin one enemy at a time's day, if he can get in close range of them. A 20th level spellcaster can ruin all of the enemy's day at once from almost any range. 20th level characters should be able to do impressive things. And anyway, you can't do ability damage to six scores at once, due to weapon type restrictions: At most, you could do four, using a multi-type weapon like a scythe or a morningstar.

[Welknair]

For the PrC... It's just like the base Fighter, except more skills, higher HD, and it's bonus feats are from a narrower selection? :smallconfused:

[Benly]

The PrC is pretty bad. Consider this: you're sinking two feats, at least one of which is guaranteed to be inapplicable at any given time, to enter a class whose only feature is bonus feats off a limited list. My recommendation: reduce the weapon focus requirement to one Weapon Focus, and reduce the class to five levels with a bonus veteran feat at each level. At that point I would consider using a few levels to help finish out a fighter-type who had already gotten his main necessities out of the way.

Awesome Flourish's wording is odd. Normally any effect that inflicts frightened status on a creature with frightened or shaken will automatically upgrade to panicked for as long as the effects overlap. Your wording seems to add the special effect that if the creature is already frightened, the status inflicted for the full duration of Awesome Flourish is panicked regardless of whether it continues to overlap. Not a problem necessarily, just an oddity that may or may not be intentional.

The general reliance on crits and critical threats means that there are a few weapons that work much better with these feats than others. Unfortunately, all the best critfishing weapons are either slashing or piercing, so the bludgeoning feats lose out. (There is only one published bludgeoning weapon with an 18-20 crit range, and it's an exotic thrown weapon.)

Veteran Dodge is pretty bad, but that's more Dodge's fault than anything else.

[Chronos]

The general reliance on crits and critical threats means that there are a few weapons that work much better with these feats than others. Unfortunately, all the best critfishing weapons are either slashing or piercing, so the bludgeoning feats lose out. (There is only one published bludgeoning weapon with an 18-20 crit range, and it's an exotic thrown weapon.)That bugs me a bit, too, but I'm not sure what else to trigger off of. I don't want to make them something that triggers on every hit, but I also want to make it something that triggers without the user having to make any special decision to use them: The fighter should be fighting just the same way he always has, and these bonus effects just happen automatically.

I see the point about the fear one: I intended for it to have the usual effect of stacking while they overlap, but I guess I didn't think that through quite completely.

And is Veteran Dodge still bad even with that large a bonus? I would have thought that there are enough situations where one enemy is the dominant threat (boss fight, horde of orcs led by an ogre, enemy mage with really nasty rays, etc.) that that'd make it useful.

[Benly]

And is Veteran Dodge still bad even with that large a bonus? I would have thought that there are enough situations where one enemy is the dominant threat (boss fight, horde of orcs led by an ogre, enemy mage with really nasty rays, etc.) that that'd make it useful.

Veteran Dodge is something I could see a duelist taking, except that it requires Dodge. It's not something worth sinking two feats on. The thing to bear in mind is that despite fighters getting a bunch of bonus feats, feats are still not disposable for them because feats are all you get and you need to make the most of them.

This is also part of the problem with your Veteran Armsman PrC. One Weapon Focus feat isn't a total waste, so it's an acceptable prerequisite - it's a small benefit with your favorite weapon but still a benefit. Two Weapon Foci means that you will always have one of them doing nothing for you, and you just can't afford to do that on a fighter unless you're getting a lot for your buck. A PrC that's a very marginal improvement doesn't do it.

[Sacrieur]

You wouldn't mind if I used these feats as bonus feats for a base class would you?

[jiriku]

Speaking to the feats themselves: Veteran Dodge is potentially problematic. A +10 or greater AC bonus that stacks with everything else is likely to create situations at higher levels where monsters either can't ever hit the character with Veteran Dodge or can't ever miss everyone else in the party. This is not desirable from a party-balance perspective. A bonus of +1 /2 veteran feats, or a bonus that caps at +4 or +5, would be more appropriate.

You should adjust Veteran Range to work in 5-foot increments.

Most of the other feats are... unspectacular. I'm not trying to be mean. Thing is, they essentially come down to "here's a dozen ways to sometimes proc a mild debuff when you hit". While some of the debuffs are good (Wearying Strike gets a nod, because it limits an opponent's options), most of them aren't going to change the direction of combat - they just make the melee hitter slightly better at... hitting things in melee. There are already A LOT of ways to become slightly better at hitting things in melee. I'd encourage you to develop additional veteran feats that carve out a new sphere of capability for the melee hitter. Perhaps you could focus on mobility, speed, terrain denial, negating debuffs, buffing allies, or other things that melee hitters typically aren't very good at.