Is Alchohol considered a Poison(citation please)

[Matamane]

I remember reading that Alchohol is considered a poison in game, but I don't remember where. Is there something in a wotc book that confirms or denies this?

[Zaydos]

The Arms and Equipment Guide has rules for alcohol and it's kind of like poison but not quite. Page 32.

[Matamane]

would it work for the purposes of poison healer?

[Zaydos]

Neutralize Poison negates the damaging effects but that's all I've got. I tend to just treat them more like poison.

[Murmaider]

Goliaths in 'Races of Stone' have a drinking game, called 'Drink-and-Tell'. The alcohol used in said game is an indigested poison.

Not sure if that's helpful, though.

[ericgrau]

If nothing else you can fall back to the DMG entry that says the world works like the real world except where noted or unreasonable.

[Akal Saris]

would it work for the purposes of poison healer?

Strictly by the rules, no, alcohol is like a poison but not actually one. However, I'd make the argument to the DM that it would result in a fun character.

[zorba1994]

Based on the common sense logic that you can't coat a blade with bourbon and expect it to do anything (other than disinfect the wound), and that the only way to kill someone discreetly with alcohol poisoning without them noticing is if they have no tongue/nose, I'm going to go with no.

As for citations, I have none.

[IthroZada]

Based on the common sense logic that you can't coat a blade with bourbon and expect it to do anything (other than disinfect the wound), and that the only way to kill someone discreetly with alcohol poisoning without them noticing is if they have no tongue/nose, I'm going to go with no.

As for citations, I have none.

Well, you can't coat a blade with an ingested poison and expect it to do anything either. And just because it isn't discreet doesn't it make it non-poisonous. After all, when you're in the hospital, they do call it alcohol poisoning. But for game mechanics, there does seem a large chance alcohols and poisons are filed into two separate categories. Despite them often doing the same thing, and being considered the same thing in the real world with varying degrees of toxicity.

Edit: But seeing as how the Arms and Equipment guide has separate sections for both poisons and alcohol, no they aren't considered the same thing. But they appear similar enough for reasonable houseruling.

[Callista]

Yup. Alcohol is handled like a poison, mechanically.

And, in real life, that's what it is as well. But you have to remember that practically everything is a poison in real life, too. Usually beneficial substances like painkillers, substances like salt or vitamins, and even water can poison you.

Basic toxicology: The dose makes the poison. That is, just about everything in the world, if you are exposed to enough of it, can kill you. For extremely toxic substances like nerve agents, that might be a drop smaller than the head of a pin. For less toxic substances, like caffeine, that could be the equivalent of a bottle of No-Doz or fifty cups of coffee. For substances with very low toxicity, like water, it could mean so much that it's difficult to physically fit into your stomach, taken over a long amount of time, or taken intravenously. (But people have still died of drinking too much water.)

Alcohol is a moderately poisonous substance; and, like any poison, it creates a situation in which the body has to re-balance itself in order to reach homeostasis again. The human body basically likes to be in a certain state, and there are lots of mechanisms in place to get the body back to that state. Like, for example, if you were to drink too much water, your kidneys would let more water leave the bloodstream and you would find yourself peeing every half hour or so. With alcohol, it's similar--your body re-balances itself both by metabolizing and expelling the alcohol and by coping with the toxin while it's there. If you were to actually get hooked on it, your body would get used to the alcohol being there and change things around so as to function better with the alcohol present--though of course when you stop drinking, if you are addicted, your body has to get used to not having alcohol present anymore, and that causes withdrawal symptoms.

We live in a world where everything is, to some degree, toxic. Even organic fruits and vegetables generate natural pesticides to keep bugs away, and we eat these every time we munch on a salad. But thankfully, our bodies are also designed to readjust themselves every time we come in contact with something that sets them off-balance.

The only time you need to worry is when something sets the body so far off balance, either short-term or long-term, that it's difficult or impossible to recover. Depending on the substance, that could mean a drop of sarin, a glass of Everclear, or two gallons of salt water. But it's all poison, if the dose is right.

[Swordguy]

Yup. Alcohol is handled like a poison, mechanically.

Yup. Watched a DM make an exalted paladin fall for partaking of wine during the ceremonies for his religion...because alcohol's mechanically a poison and the use of poison is an evil act.

Which was retarded and led to a fight and the game breaking up...but it is RAW. (And constitutes reason number #748,832 why obsession with RAW is actively bad for gaming.)

[Callista]

Yet another reason why we house-rule "poison is not evil".

*sigh*

[arguskos]

Yup. Alcohol is handled like a poison, mechanically.
The only mechanics I can find for alcohol are the A&EG ones, and those actually aren't really poison rules. Do you have a rule citation? I'd love to see it, because I love the dwarven poison healing trick, I don't know where to find it, and like to justify things by RAW if possible (not adverse to just saying "it works like X" when X makes sense, though). I don't adhere crazy strictly though, cause RAW is stupid in a lot of ways.

[Callista]

I'm looking at the arms and equipment guide too. It's not exactly like poison, but it's pretty darn close.

[arguskos]

I'm looking at the arms and equipment guide too. It's not exactly like poison, but it's pretty darn close.
Eh, then by RAW, it's not actually one. Hell, that section calls it a depressant, not a poison.

I mean, by sanity, I totally agree (and rule the same), but yeah, if a DM pulls the "by RAW, it's a poison, and poison is evil" crap on you, smack them and prove them RAW wrong. :smalltongue:

[Akal Saris]

Yup. Watched a DM make an exalted paladin fall for partaking of wine during the ceremonies for his religion...because alcohol's mechanically a poison and the use of poison is an evil act.

Which was retarded and led to a fight and the game breaking up...but it is RAW. (And constitutes reason number #748,832 why obsession with RAW is actively bad for gaming.)

That is certainly one of the more incredible reasons I've seen for a game to break up.

[Katana_Geldar]

Somebody tell that joke about the dwarf, the human and the elf and the dwarven ale...

[Callista]

Yeah, no kidding. I've heard of some weird stuff being pulled on paladins, but that really takes the cake (and woe to you if the cake is made with wine, or you'll lose your powers.)

[Katana_Geldar]

People can have funny ideas, I once had an LG cleric ask me if he was allowed to have alcohol.

[arguskos]

Yeah, no kidding. I've heard of some weird stuff being pulled on paladins, but that really takes the cake (and woe to you if the cake is made with wine, or you'll lose your powers.)
Indeed. :smallsigh:

Dammit people, paladins should be treated like they're this guy (wow, that image is huge; sorry):

http://images2.fanpop.com/image/photos/12300000/Jean-Luc-Picard-jean-luc-picard-12367230-1694-2560.jpg


Not this lady:

http://images.wikia.com/oots/images/3/32/Very_cross_Miko.gif


Please, DMs, think of the paladins.

[Grommen]

Yet another reason why we house-rule "poison is not evil".

*sigh*

Poisoning someone and killing them is quite evil. Nearly every culture on the planet agrees. It is one of the most haneous acts you can commit on to someone.

Getting someone drunk to the point that it kills them is not much better. However sharing a beer with your crew after a long day. It's not evil. Your intent is not to kill someone, it's simply to enjoy something.

It is the intent that makes what your doing good or bad.

I'm not sure after re-reading your post Callista if you mean poison in and of it's self is evil or poisoning someone is not evil. I would agree with you on the first point but I have to disagree on the second.

By RAW in most games it is clearly stated. If said rule gets in the way, even of your beer, please feel free to remove it. Every RPG has a DM,GM, judge, god, etc. for a reason. It it so you can remove the silliness from a game and make it more enjoyable. The notion that you should play a game to the letter of the law is something I don't understand.

Game wise I would treat alcohol as a poison. They make a fort save with a target number. Failure and they loose d? amount of wisdom and Intelligence. The Fort save and the amount of damage they take would depend on the drink.

And trust me, no matter how drunk you are. Your not taller, better looking, charming, or most impotently bullet proof. :smallannoyed:

[Lord_Gareth]

Poisoning someone and killing them is quite evil. Nearly every culture on the planet agrees. It is one of the most haneous acts you can commit on to someone.

I just poisoned the Dark Lord of Navandar so that his more beneficent son would take the throne. How is this more evil than waging a war to take the throne or putting three feet of steel into his kidneys?

[Grommen]

Yeah, no kidding. I've heard of some weird stuff being pulled on paladins, but that really takes the cake (and woe to you if the cake is made with wine, or you'll lose your powers.)

Not that I'm picking on you but...

Their are several real world religions that if you ingest XXXXX your going straight to hell in a hand basket. :smallfurious:

Causing a Palidian to fall over wine is pretty silly though. I would have walked as well.

[Lord_Gareth]

Not that I'm picking on you but...

Their are several real world religions that if you ingest XXXXX your going straight to hell in a hand basket. :smallfurious:

Causing a Palidian to fall over wine is pretty silly though. I would have walked as well.

But we're speaking of D&D's moral system, which has nothing to do with real life, friend.

[Callista]

The reason we prefer to get rid of the poison rule isn't really to do with real life; it's got lots more to do with the way it's just not consistent with the PHB alignment descriptions.

Evil is "hurting, oppressing, and killing others," and good is "altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings." Poison just doesn't seem to have much to do with either one of those. Sure, you can use it to kill things; but you can use a sword for the same purpose, and if using a sword is only evil if you use it the wrong way, then poison should be in the same category.

We've got these general descriptions of what good and evil are. Poison doesn't, by its nature, fit into either one of them. It's entirely down to how you use it. If you say poison is evil, then you have to change the definition of evil to include it specifically.

The inconsistency is very easily resolved simply removing the "Poison use is evil" idea and going by the basic definition of evil as "hurting, oppressing, and killing others".

[Grommen]

I just poisoned the Dark Lord of Navandar so that his more beneficent son would take the throne. How is this more evil than waging a war to take the throne or putting three feet of steel into his kidneys?

I know not of this Dark Lord. I'm going to assume he be an evil bugger. It still comes down to your intent and your actions. Poisoning one evil tyrant so that many more innocent people can live. Probably not evil. Poisoning his water supply and killing every servant in his house. Not so nice.

Same could be said about waging a war. If in the end you simply decide to put to the sword every servant the tyrant had. Pretty darn evil. Capturing the tyrant and removing him from power. Pretty good.

So is one more evil than the other under these conditions? Probably not.

Coarse a pen and paper game can't take into account all these variables, so again that is why you have a DM.

And the above is just my opinion. Your mileage will vary.

BTW how big is this Dark Lord? Assuming he has at least three feet of Kidney he must be a big sucker :smallbiggrin:

[Grommen]

But we're speaking of D&D's moral system, which has nothing to do with real life, friend.

I know I was being funny.

[Lord_Gareth]

The point was, Mr. Grommen, that the act of poisoning someone, while likely chaotic, is not necessarily evil, just as the act of knifing them isn't always evil.

[Shyftir]

Not that I'm picking on you but...

Their are several real world religions that if you ingest XXXXX your going straight to hell in a hand basket. :smallfurious:

Causing a Palidian to fall over wine is pretty silly though. I would have walked as well.

There is a difference between feeling a particular action is not morally acceptable and considering it to be damning in and of itself.

As a person who has family morally opposed to the use of alcohol for entertainment purposes. I find that straw-man statement of their opinions rather insulting.

(This is WHY we keep detailed description of religious beliefs out of this forum.)


Side point: It's more that poison use is not considered honorable which has a large effect on most pseudo-medieval morality systems.

[Mastikator]

Based on the common sense logic that you can't coat a blade with bourbon and expect it to do anything (other than disinfect the wound), and that the only way to kill someone discreetly with alcohol poisoning without them noticing is if they have no tongue/nose, I'm going to go with no.

As for citations, I have none.

Right, alcohol is used often to disinfect wounds. Because it kills bacteria.
However, if you use a syringe to inject alcohol directly into your bloodstream, you'll have a very high risk of death from alcohol poisoning.
If you vaporize alcohol and inhale the vapor you'll also risk death from alcohol poisoning.

Why? Because when you ingest alcohol only an extremely small amount go into your bloodstream, the rest goes to your liver ;)

I'd rule that it is a poison, and an extremely potent one. Like Fort vs 2d6 con damage or something. (unless you drink it, then it's like, 1 con damage)

[RTGoodman]

On topic, I thought Complete Adventurer had alcohol listed as a poison in the section on the Drunken Master PrC. Could be wrong, though.

[sambo.]

tl, dr.

drink enough booze and you'll either die or get very sick.

sounds like a poison to me.

dunno that i'd allow Neutralize Poison to let PCs win drinking competitions.

[dgnslyr]

And trust me, no matter how drunk you are. Your not taller, better looking, charming, or most impotently bullet proof. :smallannoyed:

That's not what Trouserfang Beardfist (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19860262/The_Trouserfang_Dwarf:_A_Rebirth) tells me!

[Callista]

tl, dr.

drink enough booze and you'll either die or get very sick.

sounds like a poison to me.

dunno that i'd allow Neutralize Poison to let PCs win drinking competitions.I think I would. Cheating at drinking competitions is more interesting than random fort saves to see who wins. But whether the opponents find out they're cheating... depends. :)

[dgnslyr]

Hehehehe, perfect chance to throw an angry dwarven Bear Warrior at the party! A few levels in Drunken Master makes it even better.

[Ravens_cry]

Yup. Watched a DM make an exalted paladin fall for partaking of wine during the ceremonies for his religion...because alcohol's mechanically a poison and the use of poison is an evil act.

Which was retarded and led to a fight and the game breaking up...but it is RAW. (And constitutes reason number #748,832 why obsession with RAW is actively bad for gaming.)
That is so asinine I don't know where to begin.
You would think the Paladin members of that order would have noticed partaking in the sacred wine made them not feel so mighty and strong in the eyes of their god.
Seriously, that is just, gah!
And what's worse, it's not even right RAW-bastardy, if what arguskos says is true.
I created the below for a thread that insisted woman should get a Charisma bonus based on cup size.
This, this may be worse.
http://img841.imageshack.us/img841/6396/quadfacepalm.jpg
Also, you can't have enough Jean-Luc in your thread.:smallwink:

[Taverick]

In DnD terms Alcohol IS a poison, thus it shows up with the use of detect poison, however it has special rules. The damage done by a poison takes a long amount of time to recover from, usually a day for every point of damage to a stat point, as per normal healing. The Damage done by alcohol is kinda like non-lethal damage in the sense it takes much less time to recover from, at a point per hour instead of per day. But like other poisons alcohol CAN kill you. Like in real life your body can filter out alcohol much quicker than it can a more serious poison, and alcohol is a mild toxin.

Now as for a alcohol being evil, no. In most medieval periods the water was not safe to drink, which is why they combined it with weak alcohol to sanitize it thus making it safe to drink. As well, there are benefits to drinking alcohol (just in moderation). Neither is using poisons. It's not a NICE act mind you, so I wouldn't call it a good act, but sometimes it better than a sword to the gut. Sometimes, there are some nasty poisons out there. But just like a sword, it all depends on how it's being used. The item, or substance in this case, in itself is not evil, it's how it's used. Now using poison subtly might be considered a chaotic act, which would definitely make a pally fall. However, Pally's are often sent on missions to some not-that-nice things. Don't care how you put it, killing anyone isn't a purely GOOD act. So their code is a little more lenient on the whole Good vs Evil thing. It's the chaotic acts that they are sticklers about.

[ericgrau]

Yup. Watched a DM make an exalted paladin fall for partaking of wine during the ceremonies for his religion...because alcohol's mechanically a poison and the use of poison is an evil act.

Which was retarded and led to a fight and the game breaking up...but it is RAW. (And constitutes reason number #748,832 why obsession with RAW is actively bad for gaming.)

Poison use was never evil anywhere in the rules. Nearly everything in the paladin's code is either lawful or good, right down to the RAW for alignment descriptions. Poison is usually illegal and thus unlawful. In the paladin description not using poison falls specifically under acting with honor, likewise lawfulness. In the context of paladin-hood these poisons have nothing to do with alcohol, which is usually neither against the law nor dishonorable. Technically poison use doesn't even make a paladin fall; only acting dishonorably is for which poison use is given as an example. If a paladin isn't using poison in a dishonorable fashion he's fine. If your DM is going to take the code out of context like that he might as well make paladins fall every time they cheat death, lie down, or fail to punish those holding a weapon within melee range of an innocent (they threaten them).

Alcohol is well known to be a poison, IRL, so I'm not going to debate that side of things. It's very easy to look it up. What impact it has on the game depends on what you mean.

[Callista]

Now using poison subtly might be considered a chaotic act, which would definitely make a pally fall. However, Pally's are often sent on missions to some not-that-nice things. Don't care how you put it, killing anyone isn't a purely GOOD act. So their code is a little more lenient on the whole Good vs Evil thing. It's the chaotic acts that they are sticklers about.Actually that's the other way around... though Miko "Who Cut the Tag Off this Mattress" Miyazaki might disagree with me on that point. :)

The description of the 3.5 paladin (which I'm assuming we're using to define "paladin" here), states that an ex-paladin is "a paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who grossly violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and abilities..."

"Willfully committing an evil act" is an automatic loss of powers. However, willfully committing a chaotic act is not. It has to be a gross violation for chaotic acts to count--Miko's fall was an example of that sort of thing; killing her lord was a strongly CE act--or else the act has to be chaotic enough to cause a shift away from LG. The paladin's code has always been heavy on the Good, not so heavy on the Law; and that's a good thing because the paladin class suffers from a dual allegiance to both Law and Good, and sometimes has to choose between them. If your paladin chooses Good over Law (after searching for logical LG third options), then he's still acting within his code. It can definitely be interesting to create a Law-focused Miko-style paladin, though; just be sure you have the appropriate feats to go to an ex-paladin prestige class.

There are options for people wanting to play a knight-style character who is focused on Law rather than Good, of course.

[Thurbane]

In the ToEE computer game, any paladin in your party when you take part in the drinking competition at the Inn of the Welcome Wench falls automatically. :smallfurious:

On topic, I thought Complete Adventurer had alcohol listed as a poison in the section on the Drunken Master PrC. Could be wrong, though.
The only reference I can find to poison in the Drunken Master PrC is in the entry reqs:

Special: Flurry of blows ability; evasion ability; must be chosen by existing drunken masters and survive a night of revelry among them without being incarcerated, poisoned, or extraordinarily embarrassed.

[Thurbane]

OK...a lot of searching, but I do have some citation that alcohol is, in fact, considered a poison in D&D 3.5:


Drugs and Sanity
Drugs in the D&D game follow many of the same rules as poisons, allowing the imbiber saving throws to resist their initial and secondary effects. Delay poison, neutralize poison, and similar effects negate or end a drug’s effects, but they do not restore hit points, ability damage, or other damage caused by the substance.
A creature that willingly takes a drug automatically fails both saving throws. It is not possible to intentionally fail the initial save but attempt to save against the secondary effect, or vice versa. Save DCs are provided for situations in which a character is unwillingly drugged.

OK, I'll admit, that one's not very solid, but here's one that is almost airtight (IMHO):


Like alcoholic drinks, jhuild is technically a poison, and a character who drinks it must succeed on a Fortitude saving throw (DC 12) to avoid its effect; those who desire it may voluntarily fail this saving throw.

[AtlanteanTroll]

Based on the common sense logic that you can't coat a blade with bourbon and expect it to do anything (other than disinfect the wound), and that the only way to kill someone discreetly with alcohol poisoning without them noticing is if they have no tongue/nose, I'm going to go with no.

As for citations, I have none.

Man died of Alchohol poisoning through an enema, so that may not quite be true.

[BobVosh]

There is a forgotten realms book that lists a few drugs, and I think it had poison alcohol on it. Did some small amount of wisdom, I believe.

[panaikhan]

the water is getting mightily muddy at this point...

I'm sure it states in Underdark that some drow wines are also poisonous, due to them containing spider-venom. if that isn't ultra-confusing, nothing is.

[Gullintanni]

Based on the common sense logic that you can't coat a blade with bourbon and expect it to do anything (other than disinfect the wound), and that the only way to kill someone discreetly with alcohol poisoning without them noticing is if they have no tongue/nose, I'm going to go with no.

As for citations, I have none.


Man died of Alchohol poisoning through an enema, so that may not quite be true.

Keeping mind of course that Bourbon usually hovers around the 40% mark...use 100% undiluted alcohol and you may have a different scenario on hand. That being said, Alcohol evaporates pretty quickly.

Not sure if I'd consider whiskey a poison in DnD, but undiluted alcohol? Absolutely.

[FelixG]

Citation: Races of Stone page 59


...Mead is technically an ingested poison (stats here i will not repost as they are not SRD) although it only induces drowsiness and reduces speech to a slurred gibberish. It isn't otherwise dangerous.

So as you can see, Alchohol IS a poison, and you wanted a technicality there it is! Even if it doesnt cause death :smallbiggrin:

[Jayabalard]

Poison use was never evil anywhere in the rules. I'm pretty sure this is false. The book of Exalted deeds mentions that it's evil, and I'm pretty sure it was listed in earlier editions that way as well.


Keeping mind of course that Bourbon usually hovers around the 40% mark...use 100% undiluted alcohol and you may have a different scenario on hand. That being said, Alcohol evaporates pretty quicklyBourbon at cask strength is generally much higher than that (50-80%) ... it just tends to be bottled at 40%. /nitpick

And yes, alcohol over 160 proof (80%) evaporates very quickly, which is why you really either need chemical or pressurize distilling to get your alcohol more pure than that.


Why? Because when you ingest alcohol only an extremely small amount go into your bloodstream, the rest goes to your liver ;)No... all of it (or nearly so) gets into your bloodstream... that's how it gets to the liver. It just takes a bit longer when you ingest it.

[ericgrau]

So far I think it's clear both that (a) alcohol is technically a poison and (b) many game rules aren't referring to to that kind of poison; they mean venom and so on. So whether you treat it like one depends on the situation.

[aquaticrna]

just to confuse the issue further, there are also rules on alcohol consumption in cityscape... it's on a random sidebar. But what is says (going off memory here) is that a player can have one drink per hour per point of con score without suffering ill effect, every drink above that limit and you have to make a fort save, the fort save increases for each additional drink... when you fail you start taking minuses to con and wis, there are more rules but i don't remember more than that.

[Ravens_cry]

just to confuse the issue further, there are also rules on alcohol consumption in cityscape... it's on a random sidebar. But what is says (going off memory here) is that a player can have one drink per hour per point of con score without suffering ill effect, every drink above that limit and you have to make a fort save, the fort save increases for each additional drink... when you fail you start taking minuses to con and wis, there are more rules but i don't remember more than that.
I would make it 1+ modifier, because as that stands, that means a human with average Constitution can drink 10 drinks an hour without getting drunk and that does not reflect reality in the slightest. I am a light weight and a single beer on an empty stomach is enough to get me giggly. Not drunk, but certainly less inhibited and more zany.

[aquaticrna]

yeah the rules in there are ridiculous, their justification is that the pc's should be able to mess around and drink a lot if they feel like it without screwing themselves for the day. It was definitely an odd rule, but hey it's RAW :smalltongue: (though someone with the book handy should definnitely double check me... )

[Callista]

They can drink a lot; they'll just get a hangover in the morning. And if that isn't a stat reduction, I don't know what is!

This, of course, is the perfect opportunity to have them targeted by [weak monster of choice]. Trying to fight while hung over? Not fun for the PCs, but hilarious for the players.

[Mikeavelli]

Indeed. :smallsigh:

Dammit people, paladins should be treated like they're this guy (wow, that image is huge; sorry):

http://images2.fanpop.com/image/photos/12300000/Jean-Luc-Picard-jean-luc-picard-12367230-1694-2560.jpg


Not this lady:

http://images.wikia.com/oots/images/3/32/Very_cross_Miko.gif


Please, DMs, think of the paladins.

And here's a great example of a Blackguard!


http://gandt.blogs.brynmawr.edu/files/2009/02/janeway36891.jpg

[arguskos]

And here's a great example of a Blackguard!


http://gandt.blogs.brynmawr.edu/files/2009/02/janeway36891.jpg

Damn son, that's some gallows humor right there (cause that stare can KILL GOOD MEN :smalleek:).

Ok, it's nice to see some actual rule citations that clarify alcohol is a poison (if a weak one). That means the Poison Healing feat actually works with alcohol! Huzzah!

[Thurbane]

My 2 cents? RAW disputes and conflicting documentation aside, I htink the DM should just make his own call about whether alcohol = poison.

If he thinks it's going to cause problems with Poison Healer abuse, best option is to rule no. If he thinks allowing it won't unbalance or cause problems in his game, then rule yes.

Assuming for a moment that alcohol does equal poison, what is the most extreme kind of TO tricks you could pull using that?

[arguskos]

Assuming for a moment that alcohol does equal poison, what is the most extreme kind of TO tricks you could pull using that?
Enchanted alcoholic beverages to function as potions so you can store them in your blood with Delay Potion and then heal from them at the same time via Poison Healer? Dunno how legal it is, but I bet it can be done.

[lightningcat]

just to confuse the issue further, there are also rules on alcohol consumption in cityscape... it's on a random sidebar. But what is says (going off memory here) is that a player can have one drink per hour per point of con score without suffering ill effect, every drink above that limit and you have to make a fort save, the fort save increases for each additional drink... when you fail you start taking minuses to con and wis, there are more rules but i don't remember more than that.

The actual rule is a number of drinks in an hour equal to 1/2 your Constitution score.

[The_Jackal]

Yes, alcohol is a poison:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_alcohol_content

However, most folks do have to drink quite a lot of liquor to die from it, since it invariably is diluted in beverages, a healthy liver is fairly effective at metabolizing it, and the effects felt early often are incompatible with further voluntary consumption.

IMO, cure poison should absolutely negate the effects of alcohol.

For people coming up with counterexamples, remember that alcohol is a fairly weak poison. The 'proper' poisons in the DMG are far, far more deadly.

[Thurbane]

I think we pretty much all agree that alcohol is a poison IRL...the burning question is whether it is considered a "poison" in the D&D definition, and for effects specific to poison in game terms.

[Veyr]

I think I would. Cheating at drinking competitions is more interesting than random fort saves to see who wins. But whether the opponents find out they're cheating... depends. :)
Heh, my group just this week had a rather fun time doing Fort saves to ever-increasing DCs for a drinking competition. It was all sorts of silly with fun dialogue and the like.


Poison use was never evil anywhere in the rules.
Correct, but...

I'm pretty sure this is false. The book of Exalted deeds mentions that it's evil
This. Originally, so far as I can find, poison use was A. illegal, and B. against the Paladin's Code due to being illegal and dishonorable.

Later authors (such as those who wrote The Book of Exalted Deeds) screwed it up by being morons and forgetting this, assuming that because it can cause a Paladin to fall it must be Evil. Thus we're left with "ravages", which are the dumbest things ever.


That Paladin story is about as bad as the Unicorn Story (http://pastebin.com/rJeapWN1) (not mine, I was just linked to it once upon a time).

[Callista]

Very odd indeed...

The character had no in-game reason for wanting to do that; why should he?

Maybe that DM had played one too many times with people who play Evil characters whose prime reason for doing things is "because I'm evil, lol!"

We need more well-played, realistic Evil characters.

[navar100]

Yup. Alcohol is handled like a poison, mechanically.

And, in real life, that's what it is as well. But you have to remember that practically everything is a poison in real life, too. Usually beneficial substances like painkillers, substances like salt or vitamins, and even water can poison you.


Dihydrogen Monoxide

http://www.dhmo.org/facts.html

[FelixG]

I think we pretty much all agree that alcohol is a poison IRL...the burning question is whether it is considered a "poison" in the D&D definition, and for effects specific to poison in game terms.

I quoted where it is considered a poison, your free to look it up, i gave the page number :smallbiggrin:

[Ravens_cry]

Dihydrogen Monoxide

http://www.dhmo.org/facts.html
Dangerous stuff that. Did you know that it is an important component of almost all acids? Also, over 90% of all impaired drivers involved in fatal accidents had it in their bloodstreams at the time of the accident.

[bennierja]

I know this is a dead thread, but I am posting in case anyone else wants an answer to the same question of the original post. I also haven't read the whole thread, so hopefully my post isn't a repeat.

By D&D RAW, alcohol is a poison. I only found one rather obscure reference in Unapproachable East p137: "Like alcoholic drinks, jhuild is technically a poison..."

If we reference the Arms and Equipment Guide (p32), we can begin to understand what this means. Aside from the fact that a "...character could possible suffer the effects of alcohol poisoning" and that "Neutralize poison negates the damaging effects of alcohol...," any time a character ingests alcohol he must make a fortitude save. Therefore, alcohol is not just a poison in how we categorize it in the game, but also its in mechanic. To demonstrate my meaning, alcohol would, for instance, heal a character with the Poison Healer feat a number of hit points equal to his Con mod with every successful save. You would need to be drinking alcohol that required a save, but every alcohol requires a save under the optional rule on page 32. But even if your DM doesn't use the optional rule, there are alcoholic beverages that require a save anyways such as Drow Spiderblood (p31) and all the alcoholic drugs. There is also no reason to believe that just because an alcoholic beverage is categorized as a drug it cannot also be categorized as a poison. To quote Book of Vile Darkness: "Drugs function like poisons, allowing the imbiber an initial and a secondary saving throws to resist their effects. Delay poison, neutralize poison, and similar effects negate or end a drug's effects." An example of an alcoholic drug would be Rhul from Lords of Darkness (p184).

As a side note, the above feat would make a Drunken Master even more fun.

[Cirrylius]

I actually just asked this very question on the Ask a Simple Question thread a few days ago. Weird.

Anyway, if alcohol is judged to be a poison, then it really nerfs Detect Poison if you're drink booze often. Unless you're a Cleric or an alchemist, of course.

[Thurbane]

Poor Duergar couldn't get drunk...

[ksbsnowowl]

Poor Duergar couldn't get drunk...

Nor experienced Druids.

[Juntao112]

Or Fistbeard Beardfist.

[Artillery]

Yeah, ethanol(like found in wine, beer, etc) directly in the bloodstream is quite deadly. If you break 0.5% BAC you risk death.

Other alcohols are more toxic and would blend into another alcoholic drink undetected, 10ml ingested dose of methanol will cause blindness after a few hours. A 100ml dose, 4 fl oz, will kill a normal person. Though it takes longer to kill a person then normal poison, but that might be just what you want.

[ksbsnowowl]

Yeah, ethanol(like found in wine, beer, etc) directly in the bloodstream is quite deadly. If you break 0.5% BAC you risk death.

Other alcohols are more toxic and would blend into another alcoholic drink undetected, 10ml ingested dose of methanol will cause blindness after a few hours. A 100ml dose, 4 fl oz, will kill a normal person. Though it takes longer to kill a person then normal poison, but that might be just what you want.

And the treatment for methanol poisoning? Get hammered on ethanol!
They compete for the same activation sites, though ethanol binds preferentially. So outnumber the methanol molecules!