Tyranids VS Zerg VS Flood

[Silverraptor]

In another thread, a joke was made of these 3 races joining together and taking over the universe, being known as the Flyranerg. I laughed at this for a while, but afterwards I started thinking about what would happen if these 3 races actually started fighting each other in a war of evolution and adaptation.

I think the Flood would lose rather quickly with the Zerg and Tyranids adapting to prevent how the Flood latch on and control their victims. And if for some reason they can't adapt, I think it would be amusing to see the Flood latch onto a spore mine or a Baneling.:smalltongue:

As for a Tyranid VS Zerg fight, it would certainly be pretty interesting. Though I think Tyranids would have the advantage being they have more forms to evolve into.

What does everyone else think about this?

[Tavar]

It's a matter of scale.

Zerg are a threat to a sector of space.

Tryanids are a threat to the Galaxy as a whole.

[Thanqol]

Zerranod! The fusion is the Zerranod!

Gotta give this one to the Tyrranids though. Pretty much anything from the Warhammer universe is on such a horrifying scale that there's no real counter.

[Lord_Gareth]

Zerranod! The fusion is the Zerranod!

Gotta give this one to the Tyrranids though. Pretty much anything from the Warhammer universe is on such a horrifying scale that there's no real counter.

Actually, I think the Zerg may have it, for one simple reason: any conflict between the two will come down to the complexity of the intelligence behind their hive-mind. The Zerg have a complex, multi-layered hive mind including several independently sapient components, while the Tyranids have a relatively simplistic hive-mind. When the assimilation starts, the complex mind is going to crush the 'Nids and incorporate them into the Swarm.

And then, everyone else loses.

[Thanqol]

Actually, I think the Zerg may have it, for one simple reason: any conflict between the two will come down to the complexity of the intelligence behind their hive-mind. The Zerg have a complex, multi-layered hive mind including several independently sapient components, while the Tyranids have a relatively simplistic hive-mind. When the assimilation starts, the complex mind is going to crush the 'Nids and incorporate them into the Swarm.

And then, everyone else loses.

Huh? The 'nid Hive Mind is very, very cunning - just think about the strategic complexity required to begin the Genestealer project, for example - and big 'nid beasts are near geniuses. Further, the actual Hivemind for the 'nids is based in another galaxy and every Hive Fleet is suffering severely attenuated instructions. And further, 'nids are often smart enough to have *psykers*, something the Zerg had to steal Kerrigan for.

If the 'nid Hive Mind was dumb enough to get mind controlled by the Zerg, then the 'nids would absolutely factually be crushed by the 40K universe instantly. And of the two, I remember it was the Zerg who got drugged and mind controlled by humans.

THAT SAID, the zerg have sick micro the 'nids have unstoppable macro.

[Lord_Gareth]

Huh? The 'nid Hive Mind is very, very cunning - just think about the strategic complexity required to begin the Genestealer project, for example - and big 'nid beasts are near geniuses. Further, the actual Hivemind for the 'nids is based in another galaxy and every Hive Fleet is suffering severely attenuated instructions. And further, 'nids are often smart enough to have *psykers*, something the Zerg had to steal Kerrigan for.

If the 'nid Hive Mind was dumb enough to get mind controlled by the Zerg, then the 'nids would absolutely factually be crushed by the 40K universe instantly. And of the two, I remember it was the Zerg who got drugged and mind controlled by humans.

THAT SAID, the zerg have sick micro the 'nids have unstoppable macro.

See, I feel it's that distance from their source of control that would lead the more localized Zerg to counter-assimilate. And the Zerg only had that happen to them because the infant Overmind got kidnapped and drugged/conditioned, and the Zerg cannot disobey the Overmind - hence why Kerrigan fought so hard to WTFMURDER it.

[Thanqol]

See, I feel it's that distance from their source of control that would lead the more localized Zerg to counter-assimilate. And the Zerg only had that happen to them because the infant Overmind got kidnapped and drugged/conditioned, and the Zerg cannot disobey the Overmind - hence why Kerrigan fought so hard to WTFMURDER it.

The 'nids are from a setting with telepaths who can mind control entire planets at a time, demons who can possess you for thinking the wrong thoughts, and multiple galactic scale organizations who are cheerfully whipping up fresh new toxins and mind control drugs to use against you all the time. The scale is not comparable.

[The Glyphstone]

The presence of any Synapse creature is basically all it takes to fully link any nearby Nids into the full hive-mind. Subsynapse Nids except for Genestealers are just really cunning and deadly animals.

The Hive Mind also 'thinks' on galactic scale, or transgalactic scale - communication time might not even be a factor, since Nid psykers don't use the warp, but communicate directly through the Hive.

[Xefas]

The 'nids are from a setting with telepaths who can mind control entire planets at a time, demons who can possess you for thinking the wrong thoughts, and multiple galactic scale organizations who are cheerfully whipping up fresh new toxins and mind control drugs to use against you all the time. The scale is not comparable.

Not to mention, we seem to be discussing from the perspective of the Zerg defeating a Hive Fleet. If "victory" is attained by wiping out the opposing race altogether, then the Zerg are facing a task of ridiculous scale. The Tyranids dip a tentative toe into the 40k universe by sending a force of countless billions. These scouting parties wipe out dozens of planets defended by civilizations more numerous and technologically advanced than the Terran or Protoss could ever hope to become.

As much as I like Starcraft, I doubt the Zerg could even measure up to a single such hive-fleet, much less have a chance at finding, traveling to, and wiping out the Tyranid home-worlds.

[gooddragon1]

Not to mention, we seem to be discussing from the perspective of the Zerg defeating a Hive Fleet. If "victory" is attained by wiping out the opposing race altogether, then the Zerg are facing a task of ridiculous scale. The Tyranids dip a tentative toe into the 40k universe by sending a force of countless billions. These scouting parties wipe out dozens of planets defended by civilizations more numerous and technologically advanced than the Terran or Protoss could ever hope to become.

As much as I like Starcraft, I doubt the Zerg could even measure up to a single such hive-fleet, much less have a chance at finding, traveling to, and wiping out the Tyranid home-worlds.

It's more a matter of materials. Zerg and Flood use just organic material. The 'nids can turn anything into more material to make more 'nids. So they just completely consume the flood and zerg losses to make more of themselves.

[Draconi Redfir]

I vote that either the nids would win, or a surprise twist would show up that the Zerg are actually a spliner group of tyranids. (Blizzard DID steal the "giant organic space bugs that eat evrything" idea from games workshop after all)

[Forum Explorer]

Zerg and Flood don't stand a chance against the Nids. Flood because they have to take over the other's body and the Nids will just consume them along with everything else. Zerg because of numbers, and scale. Zerg have some nasty tricks and abilities but they couldn't stand up to a bio titan. Plus the Nids would consume casualties from both sides to get even more numbers as well as the entire ecosystem on the planet.

[Lord_Gareth]

I wonder - do the 'Nids have any especial defenses against dedicated disease warfare? The Zerg breed strains of ultra-virulent diseases so foul that they can murder Terran and Protoss units in seconds, and germ warfare may give the Swarm a viable tactical edge.

[TheOasysMaster]

What about Aliens? The Xenomorphs?

[Xefas]

I wonder - do the 'Nids have any especial defenses against dedicated disease warfare? The Zerg breed strains of ultra-virulent diseases so foul that they can murder Terran and Protoss units in seconds, and germ warfare may give the Swarm a viable tactical edge.

Tyranids have no specific immunity to disease. The Imperium uses their "exterminate all life on a planet, nothing can possibly survive, there is no immunity to this" virus-bombs on the Tyranids.

Although, I'll point out that if the Zerg ever manufactured germ-tech capable of wiping out a significant portion of even a single Tyranid fleet, then the Starcraft setting would pretty much end, as something that strong would trivialize the annihilation of the entire Terran and Protoss species, as a whole.

[Forum Explorer]

I wonder - do the 'Nids have any especial defenses against dedicated disease warfare? The Zerg breed strains of ultra-virulent diseases so foul that they can murder Terran and Protoss units in seconds, and germ warfare may give the Swarm a viable tactical edge.

There was a quote from a BFG rulebook of them bombarding a hive fleet with virus bombs which didn't do much. Worse when the Nids boarded the ship they were unleashing the virus on the ship as well.

[Lord_Gareth]

Although, I'll point out that if the Zerg ever manufactured germ-tech capable of wiping out a significant portion of even a single Tyranid fleet, then the Starcraft setting would pretty much end, as something that strong would trivialize the annihilation of the entire Terran and Protoss species, as a whole.

The Swarm wants both species alive to assimilate.

[gooddragon1]

Sure, ok, the virus kills them. They still take the bio remains and make more afterwards. Xenomorphs kill some and make stronger xenomorphs. Nid's just kill them with numbers and the recycle the infected as well. The race that's doing it right against these guys are the necrons. They destroy the matter that the Nid's are using.

[Lord_Gareth]

Sure, ok, the virus kills them. They still take the bio remains and make more afterwards. Xenomorphs kill some and make stronger xenomorphs. Nid's just kill them with numbers and the recycle the infected as well. The race that's doing it right against these guys are the necrons. They destroy the matter that the Nid's are using.

Orks are also holding their own by dint of actually breeding faster than the Tyranids can kill them. IIRC, the Hive-Fleet invasion has been slowed to a near-stall because every Ork in the galaxy is going to test their mettle against them.

[gooddragon1]

Orks are also holding their own by dint of actually breeding faster than the Tyranids can kill them. IIRC, the Hive-Fleet invasion has been slowed to a near-stall because every Ork in the galaxy is going to test their mettle against them.

Oh good. More biomatter. Just a matter of time then. The tyranids probably aren't actually losing forces either. Just making new ones with the increased amounts of biomatter.

EDIT: I think that the nid's might purposefully seem to be losing just to exploit the Ork's ability to make more of themselves from nothing.

[Shyftir]

My understanding on the reason Zerg and 'nid seem so similar is that Blizzard was working on a Warhammer game on the request of Games Workshop and when Games Workshop cut out on them Blizzard did some repackaging and put out the leftovers as Starcraft. So 'nids and Zerg? pretty much the same originally.

My theory: The Zerg are in fact the 'Nids and at the end of timeline they get booted out of the Starcraft galaxy and survive to reach another galaxy where they re-group and come back some 20,000 or so years later and the galaxy has become WH40K.

[Lord_Gareth]

Oh good. More biomatter. Just a matter of time then. The tyranids probably aren't actually losing forces either. Just making new ones with the increased amounts of biomatter.

Again, merely IIRC, the problem is that the Orks aren't giving them the chance to do so. There's just too many, and the 'Nids are having difficulty comprehending a species that can field more troops than they can.

[Forum Explorer]

Oh good. More biomatter. Just a matter of time then. The tyranids probably aren't actually losing forces either. Just making new ones with the increased amounts of biomatter.

EDIT: I think that the nid's might purposefully seem to be losing just to exploit the Ork's ability to make more of themselves from nothing.

Orks also get stronger from fighting. So the orks being bred in that huge threat are getting bigger and fiercer making it harder for the Nids to win. Its a flat out stalemate last I heard.

[Xefas]

Orks also get stronger from fighting. So the orks being bred in that huge threat are getting bigger and fiercer making it harder for the Nids to win. Its a flat out stalemate last I heard.

Lets just hope they don't spend enough time together to get to the point of symbiosis.

Pic related.
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad91/bluejanus/LootedCarnifex.jpg

[Lord_Gareth]

Horror: if the Swarm could take even one Ork alive (not terribly difficult, given that you can put them through a hundred shades of torture and they'll still be alive), you now have Zerg-Ork hybrids.

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH FOR THE SWAAAAAAARM!

[Draconi Redfir]

Lets just hope they don't spend enough time together to get to the point of symbiosis.

Pic related.
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad91/bluejanus/LootedCarnifex.jpg

I just fell in love


Horror: if the Swarm could take even one Ork alive (not terribly difficult, given that you can put them through a hundred shades of torture and they'll still be alive), you now have Zerg-Ork hybrids.

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH FOR THE SWAAAAAAARM!

Been done. know the Biovore's? the things with cannons on their backs that shoot spore mines? made from Ork DNA.


And about the whole Nid Vs Ork thing, i think i heard someone at games workshop say that the Impirium actually tricked the Orks into engaging the tyranids somehow, that might be wrong however. but with both sides constantly just getting stronger the longer the fight goes on, wichever race eventually wins is going to be tough enough to take down the rest of the galaxy no problem.

If only the impirium could control the necrons somehow, could use them as pest control since tyranids cant eat them. (last i heard Necrons cant take the souls or whatever from the tyranids either though, so they mostly just leave one another alone)

[Silverraptor]

If only the impirium could control the necrons somehow, could use them as pest control since tyranids cant eat them. (last i heard Necrons cant take the souls or whatever from the tyranids either though, so they mostly just leave one another alone)

I thought it was the Dark Eldar that need souls. Necrons just kill for their gods.

[Forum Explorer]

I just fell in love



Been done. know the Biovore's? the things with cannons on their backs that shoot spore mines? made from Ork DNA.


And about the whole Nid Vs Ork thing, i think i heard someone at games workshop say that the Impirium actually tricked the Orks into engaging the tyranids somehow, that might be wrong however. but with both sides constantly just getting stronger the longer the fight goes on, wichever race eventually wins is going to be tough enough to take down the rest of the galaxy no problem.

If only the impirium could control the necrons somehow, could use them as pest control since tyranids cant eat them. (last i heard Necrons cant take the souls or whatever from the tyranids either though, so they mostly just leave one another alone)

It was the reverse. An inquisitor captured some scout organisms for the Nid fleets and snuck them into the biggest Ork system around. This caused the Nids to head there because of the massive amount of biomatter that Ork planets are.

[dgnslyr]

Hmm, the 'nid Hive Minds may be clever, but can they out-smart The Little One?

I say the 'nids and the Zerg will see each other and decide they are long-lost siblings, and engage in a hug-fest that creates a massive singularity of love that overwhelms all other life-forms. And once every one else is gone, it's PARTAY TIME! Until they get bored, where it just becomes an endless, awkward family reunion.

[Killer Angel]

And of the two, I remember it was the Zerg who got drugged and mind controlled by humans.


:smallamused:
To be fair, I remember a case of an almost entire Hive Fleet, fooled by a single human, aka Inquisitor Kryptmann.
(yeah, I know I'm simplifying a lot, but still, humans are usually depicted as smarter than grown bugs).

That said, as much as I love Zerg (also 'Nids, for all that matters), the victory goes to WH40K critters, hands down.

Edit: the only hope for zerg, is to fool the Nids, thanks to some smart Kerrigan's tactic, but even that, it would only delay the end.

[Eldan]

Honestly, the "merging" scenario is the most likely. Both species (I think, my Starcraft knowledge is very limited) use DNA from things they eat to improve their strains of organisms. If they encountered another race of genetically engineered bug swarm warriors, they'd start incorporating each other's DNA until they were virtually indistinguishable.

[Killer Angel]

Honestly, the "merging" scenario is the most likely. Both species (I think, my Starcraft knowledge is very limited) use DNA from things they eat to improve their strains of organisms. If they encountered another race of genetically engineered bug swarm warriors, they'd start incorporating each other's DNA until they were virtually indistinguishable.

Yes but... which DNA is prevalent?
I can more easily imagine the Nids with some worthy mutation thanks to Zerg DNA, rather than the Zerg as the main chassis.

[Thanqol]

:smallamused:
To be fair, I remember a case of an almost entire Hive Fleet, fooled by a single human, aka Inquisitor Kryptmann.
(yeah, I know I'm simplifying a lot, but still, humans are usually depicted as smarter than grown bugs).

Yes, completely fooled by getting exactly what it wanted :smalltongue: It's totally fine with this kind of trickery.

[Killer Angel]

Yes, completely fooled by getting exactly what it wanted :smalltongue: It's totally fine with this kind of trickery.

In the sense that they were merely searching for worlds to devour, not caring what the words were? from that PoV, yes.
But Kriptmann lured 'the Nids away from the Terran Imperium, so I think the point stands: without his trick, the Imperium would have meet more Prandium and Macragge.
Not a big difference for the Great Devourer, a lot of difference for humans.

edit: other than Kryptmann, other Imperial forces have captured Tyranids to study and gain advantage on them, but i don't know if it can be on par with the whole "Zerg who got drugged and mind controlled by humans"

[An Enemy Spy]

What happens when the Flood's infection forms take over a Bio-Titan? That would be neat.

[Darkmyst]

I would very much like to see a bio-titan/baneling hybrid. Perhaps dropped from orbit...

[Trixie]

Zerg have some nasty tricks and abilities but they couldn't stand up to a bio titan.

Isn't Ultralisk basically larger and more powerfully built than bio-titan sized creature in official artwork (http://ui18.gamespot.com/1297/ultrahires_2.jpg)? I remember very slender bio-titans made by Forge World that have very thin legs (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Tyranids/TYRANID-HIEROPHANT-BIO-TITAN.html), Ultralisk's scything blades might be especially effective against them.

Also, Zerg have actual air force that doesn't rely mostly on melee and cheap anti-starship missile creatures capable of tearing through hive ships at little cost.


Plus the Nids would consume casualties from both sides to get even more numbers as well as the entire ecosystem on the planet.

Conservation of energy.

And to eat them, they need to win first. Which they only achieve through sheer numbers.

But, Zerg might have an edge in consumption (isn't anything on creep being devoured and consumed?) and speed of reproduction.

[Tavar]

Actually, ultralisks are 20 meters long and 5 meters high. So it depends on how large the Biotitans are.

[Draconi Redfir]

I thought it was the Dark Eldar that need souls. Necrons just kill for their gods.

IIRC the Necrons capture the souls of those they kill to feed to the C'tan.


And I’m another vote for the nids and zerg either joining forces, combining into one species, or already turning out to be related.

[Gullintanni]

I think this really is a matter of scale. The Flood probably have numbers on par with the zerg, but lack the unified focus that a Brood has, so the Zerg have that conflict...but the Nids outnumber the combined forces of the Zerg and the Flood almost certainly over 1000 to 1.

Biotitans, assuming they match the size and scale of Imperial titans, make Ultralisks look like gnats. I would put Ultralisk on par with the Carnifex...especially the older Carnifex.

Tyranids have this hands down.

[bladesyz]

I like the idea that Tyranids are Zerg come back 37000+ years later.

[Selrahc]

In the sense that they were merely searching for worlds to devour, not caring what the words were? from that PoV, yes.
But Kriptmann lured 'the Nids away from the Terran Imperium, so I think the point stands: without his trick, the Imperium would have meet more Prandium and Macragge.
Not a big difference for the Great Devourer, a lot of difference for humans.

More an odd sort of diplomacy than a trick. If you think about it.



And to eat them, they need to win first. Which they only achieve through sheer numbers.

This is true, but the consumption doesn't have to wait for complete planetary victory. Digesting pools are scattered around planets that are invaded, to immediately produce large numbers of new combat organisms. Any seized biomatter should be converted relatively quickly.

Of course that does put a weak point in place for the Tyranids. Absorbed material relies on active digester pools, and dilligently scouring their beachheads can stop their assaults gaining ground side reinforcements.

Once the planet has been pacified though, the consumption begins in earnest, with a complete scouring of the surface.

I'd also say.. Tyranids don't "just rely on numbers". They have some deadly specialized tactics and elite assault units as well.


So it depends on how large the Biotitans are.

The bigger ones can be dozens of metres tall. Big enough to take on Emperor Titans in one on one battle. And possibly even bigger, I recall the description of the attack on Inyanden which had a Serpentine Tyranid creature hundreds of metres long.

And the even bigger ones are of course, space ships.

[Trixie]

Actually, ultralisks are 20 meters long and 5 meters high. So it depends on how large the Biotitans are.

Either these numbers are wrong, or the creature I linked isn't Ultralisk, but some kind of Zerg bio-titan. Just look at marine next to it.


Biotitans, assuming they match the size and scale of Imperial titans, make Ultralisks look like gnats.

Look at my link. This 'largest tyranid creature' is smaller and far slender than the Zerg linked two sentences earlier. It looks like a snake compared to Zerg's bulldog.

[The Glyphstone]

Either these numbers are wrong, or the creature I linked isn't Ultralisk, but some kind of Zerg bio-titan. Just look at marine next to it.



Look at my link. This 'largest tyranid creature' is smaller and far slender than the Zerg linked two sentences earlier. It looks like a snake compared to Zerg's bulldog.

Or, whoever drew the artwork wasn't using official Ultralisk statistics for reference, despite it being an 'official picture'. It's not like we, being D&D fans, are unfamiliar with the concept of people within the same company/department not referencing with each other.:smallbiggrin:

[Trixie]

Or, whoever drew the artwork wasn't using official Ultralisk statistics for reference, despite it being an 'official picture'. It's not like we, being D&D fans, are unfamiliar with the concept of people within the same company/department not referencing with each other.:smallbiggrin:

It would be quite a common mistake (http://www.starcraft2strategymasters.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/ArchonVersusUltralisk.png), then :smalltongue:

And another one (http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20101218022543/starcraft/images/7/75/Ultralisk_SC2_Cncpt2.jpg). And yet another (http://cache.gawkerassets.com/assets/images/9/2011/03/starcraft_2_ultralisk_crop.jpg).

Nope, on evidence I saw, it's Tyranids that are small, easily trampled gnats :smallamused:

[The Glyphstone]

It would be quite a common mistake (http://www.starcraft2strategymasters.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/ArchonVersusUltralisk.png), then :smalltongue:

And another one (http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20101218022543/starcraft/images/7/75/Ultralisk_SC2_Cncpt2.jpg). And yet another (http://cache.gawkerassets.com/assets/images/9/2011/03/starcraft_2_ultralisk_crop.jpg).

Nope, on evidence I saw, it's Tyranids that are small, easily trampled gnats :smallamused:

That's still not addressing the actual point. We have official artists drawing gigantic ultralisks. We have official fluff putting them more on the scale of 'oversized elephants'. Which is more official? Simple volume of production isn't sufficient evidence, because the statistics are only going to be printed once, while every artist may have their own idea of an ultralisk's specific details in color, scale pattern, blade length, whatever.


The proportions of the images, despite claiming to be ultralisks, actually look closer to the supposed size of Omegalisks.

[Silverraptor]

Just to make things interesting, should we throw the Hybrids on the side of the Zerg as well, also adding in Omegalisks and the like?

[Alleine]

One of the biggest problems with WH40K and Starcraft is that WH40K is designed to be completely ridiculous. You have monstrosities in it that are as common as dirt while other game universes have things like that, only its the death star and they only made two. The scale for comparison just sort of breaks down.

SC on the other hand is constrained by the game itself. For the sake of game balance giant space capable battle cruisers can't one shot a marine. And a bunch of marines on drugs can totally shoot that cruiser out of orbit with their gauss rifles. The next problem is then if we don't use that for comparison, what do we use? Using the books would probably be best, but I don't know how many people have read those, or if they're even consistent.

[The Glyphstone]

Nah. That'd make it more of a Starcraft vs. 40K vs. Halo, since the Hybrids are by very definition half-Protoss. They're not evolutionary strains of the Protoss, they're deliberate creations.

[Silverraptor]

Nah. That'd make it more of a Starcraft vs. 40K vs. Halo, since the Hybrids are by very definition half-Protoss. They're not evolutionary strains of the Protoss, they're deliberate creations.

I was mostly thinking about the "Into Utter Darkness" Mission where the Zerg are accompanied by Hybrids.

[The Glyphstone]

I was mostly thinking about the "Into Utter Darkness" Mission where the Zerg are accompanied by Hybrids.

They're still not a naturally evolved strain of Zerg though. Omegalisks could qualify, since they're just Ultralisks writ large (and seen in a normal Zerg environment). Hybrids wouldn't fit the vs. terms.

[Forum Explorer]

I was mostly thinking about the "Into Utter Darkness" Mission where the Zerg are accompanied by Hybrids.

There are missions where the Zerg are also allied with Terran and Protoss as well.

Also we need a comparison picture of a bio titan

http://www.thewarstore.com/media/ss_size2/FWIA-TYR-T-007.jpg


That's the best I could find. Some fluff pictures would be even better though.

[The Glyphstone]

Now thinking about bio-titans (and regular titans), I think the very existence of the Omegalisk indicates that Ultralisks have to be smaller than the artwork indicates*, closer to the fluff-given dimensions. If they're the size indicated by the drawings (which would indeed make them relative to bio-titans), then Omegalisk-sized creatures wouldn't even be capable of traversing a planetary surface due to size/weight issues, as they are massively larger than the base Ultralisk strain.





*(or *tinfoil hat* all of that art was from SC1, and the 'Ultralisk' strain from SC1 is now known as Omegalisks, with the Swarm breeding a smaller, more efficient strain and calling them Ultralisks instead)

[An Enemy Spy]

[QUOTE=Gullintanni;10516778]I think this really is a matter of scale. The Flood probably have numbers on par with the zerg, but lack the unified focus that a Brood has.QUOTE]

What do you mean? the flood have have something even better than tthe Overmind. The Gravemind. He's the collective wisdom of every single being the Flood has ever devoured and has complete control over the Flood as if they were his own body. The Overmind needs Cerebrates and Overlords to control his armies, and is susceptible to psi emissions, or else the Zerg are basically just extra viscous animals.

[Chess435]

The only reason Flood don't have numbers is that they were just recently released from the Halo rings. If you gave them a decade or two to get a decent infestation going, they can be a nigh-unstoppable force. If you don't believe me, go ask the Forerunners. :smallwink:

[Lord_Gareth]

The only reason Flood don't have numbers is that they were just recently released from the Halo rings. If you gave them a decade or two to get a decent infestation going, they can be a nigh-unstoppable force. If you don't believe me, go ask the Forerunners. :smallwink:

The Flood have no battle tactics and nothing going for them aside from sheer numbers, and in a numbers fight, the Swarm is going to win. The problem with the Gravemind vs. the Overmind isn't that the Overmind needs his commander - it's that his commanders allow him to direct the Swarm at a microscopic level, instead of flinging his Broods like bricks at the enemy. The Gravemind has no such advantage.

Also, the Forerunners were sissies. Just sayin' :p

[Saph]

Well, the big advantage that the Flood have going for them is that they can use technology. The Flood seem to be better parasites than the Zerg or the Nids, since they can actually use all the equipment and tech of the creatures they take over rather than being limited to biotech.

On the other hand, the Zerg and the Nids are both a lot nastier individually - they're faster and use better tactics. It's kind of hard to compare them, since they're basically the same race given a different appearance (Starcraft was originally supposed to be a Warhammer 40k game IIRC, but Blizzard couldn't get the licence).

Personally, I think no matter which side won, the end result would look the same - a hybrid swarm with all the worst features of all three. :P

[Chess435]

Also, the Forerunners were sissies. Just sayin' :p

That made me lol! :smallsmile:

[Electrohydra]

Huh, just to give the Flood a chance, since they can use technology, wouldn't it be possible for them to activate a ring? Okay it's suicide, but it would also kill all others in a huuuuuuuuge radius. (I'm assuming they have access to the rings, but since the others have access to their ship... why not?)

[Chess435]

No, as only "Reclaimers" (a.k.a. Humans) can activate the Halos.

[Primal Fury]

I'm giving this one to the 'Nids. Incalculable Numbers. Hyper-advanced organic technology. More advanced hivemind. Better bio-titans. Lack of a total reliance on absorbing opponents (I'm lookin' at you Flood). Ability to attack entire galaxy rather than small quadrant of said galaxy (sorry Zerg). Massive psychic powers that may mess with and overpower other hiveminds.

Pretty sure Zerg and Flood are getting assimilated.

[Silverraptor]

Actually, a Zerg-Tyranid mix would be quite scary. Tyranids can only reproduce from bio-matter. But as you can see, Zerg harvest minerals and gases to make their own units. So this pretty much gives the tyranids access to minerals to make more troops as well as bio-matter they are known for using.

[turkishproverb]

Flood. Remember: Water Always wins. :smallamused:

P.S.: Silverraptor, the tyranids strip minerals and other compounds from planets in addition to traditional "biomatter" when they devour it, which ultimately ends up incorporated into future generations of tyranids.

[Silverraptor]

Flood. Remember: Water Always wins. :smallamused:

P.S.: Silverraptor, the tyranids strip minerals and other compounds from planets in addition to traditional "biomatter" when they devour it, which ultimately ends up incorporated into future generations of tyranids.

Ah. Okay. I thought they could only use bio-matter.:smalltongue:

[turkishproverb]

Well, they can only use what they can use as bio matter. But when your bones are laced with metals that come from land-raiders, what exactly a bio-matter is is open to some leeway. :smallsmile:

[Killer Angel]

I remember very slender bio-titans made by Forge World that have very thin legs (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Tyranids/TYRANID-HIEROPHANT-BIO-TITAN.html), Ultralisk's scything blades might be especially effective against them.


The legs may be thin, but they are able to sustain direct shots from the heaviest weapons of WH40K, so I wouldn't count excessively on this.


Also, Zerg have actual air force that doesn't rely mostly on melee and cheap anti-starship missile creatures capable of tearing through hive ships at little cost.


Yes, Zerg will have an edge on air forces, 'specially on planetary battles involving also ground troops, but hive ships are not exactly defenceless.

[Eldan]

At the beginning of an infestation, during the battle phase, they mostly use organic matter. But they also change the planetary surface into a gigantic jungle, so...

Later, the hive ships even suck the atmosphere off a planet. So, they don't bother with trivial things such as conventional mining.

[hamishspence]

Yes, Zerg will have an edge on air forces, 'specially on planetary battles involving also ground troops, but hive ships are not exactly defenceless.

Harpies, Harridans, etc might qualify as "air force".

In Warriors of Ultramar, we see even larger aerial beasts.

And in Battlefleet Gothic- the Tyranids have "fighters" as one of the things ships can have.

So, in space or in atmosphere, the Tyranids at least have some kind of fighter.

[candycorn]

They gotta get from air to ground somehow (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QmsNZ6fj3Q[/url).

Seriously, 'nids eat a planet in a matter of a week. None of the other groups have the raw speed and efficiency at assimilation. And more frighteningly, when they're eating that planet, they're also eating the 30 planets closest to it.

Time and again in the 40k universe, the only truly reliable way to keep a world safe from 'nids is to make sure they never choose the world in the first place.

Once they do... It's just a matter of time. Yes, it's possible to fool them into going elsewhere.... But wherever they go, they hit it with a Ten Ton Hammer.

Then there's numbers. Yes, the Orks have held a Hive Fleet to a standstill by throwing virtually every eligible adult Ork at the 'nid swarm.

How many Hive Fleets are out there again? The reason that you've not seen multiple hive fleets attack at once is because Games Workshop wants to KEEP the 40k universe.

The 'nids win the multi-front battle. The 'nids win the speed battle. Zerg vs 'nid is like pitting a crocodile vs a school of tiger sharks. On the one-v-one, it could go either way... But that's not how such things go.

[Shyftir]

Here is the other side of that coin:

'Nids just eat it all and go on. Zerg infest and keep their worlds. Someone with more knowledge/interest can flesh out the ramifications of that.

[profitofrage]

People of the internet...please...stop trying to pit your other sci fi concepts in a fight with warhammer 40k concepts...chances are if your said concept wasnt directly taken from them...then 40k took it from you...and that means they deliberatly made it nastier and bigger.
when it comes down to it...40k will always win...this is because thats the whole point of the universe. The 40k universe is a setting where situations such as starcraft and halo pop up and die out all the time and the universe barely notices. Thats why we love 40k ^_^ because we know that the things that ARE big players in it..are beyond anything else weve seen.

also in responce to Shyftir -> Zerg keep there planets because they need the resources..they need the base of operations to produce there spawn...Nids need no such reliances..they need no such reliabilities.

[hamishspence]

Then there's numbers. Yes, the Orks have held a Hive Fleet to a standstill by throwing virtually every eligible adult Ork at the 'nid swarm.

How many Hive Fleets are out there again? The reason that you've not seen multiple hive fleets attack at once is because Games Workshop wants to KEEP the 40k universe.

and, in the newest tyranid codex (as well as the main rulebook) multiple hive fleets are now attacking.

Leviathan is no longer at a standstill- and is beginning to rapidly move through that Ork empire.

Two believed-destroyed fleets have reawakened (Hive Fleet Jormungandr, Hive Fleet Colossus)

A new hive fleet (Magalodon) has risen from the wreckage of Hive Fleet Kraken.

A hive fleet (Hydra) has awakened early after being attacked by Dark Eldar, and is moving in.

Two hive fleets (Scylla and Charybdis) are moving toward Terra, through Segmentum Tempestus ("west" side of the galaxy).

So, the Nids have been "stepped up" as a threat.

[Killer Angel]

Harpies, Harridans, etc might qualify as "air force".

In Warriors of Ultramar, we see even larger aerial beasts.

And in Battlefleet Gothic- the Tyranids have "fighters" as one of the things ships can have.

So, in space or in atmosphere, the Tyranids at least have some kind of fighter.

I won't negate that. Imo, in space 'Nids won by numbers AND quality. In atmosphere, SC gives more developement to aerial combat than WH40K, and Zerg have a very good variety of dedicated forces air-air and air-ground, imo better then Nids (which, of course, still have the numbers).


and, in the newest tyranid codex (as well as the main rulebook) multiple hive fleets are now attacking.
(snip)
So, the Nids have been "stepped up" as a threat.

wow... decisely, I must upgrade my knowledge with the new fluffs. :smallsmile:

[Klose_the_Sith]

People of the internet...please...stop trying to pit your other sci fi concepts in a fight with warhammer 40k concepts...chances are if your said concept wasnt directly taken from them...then 40k took it from you...and that means they deliberatly made it nastier and bigger.
when it comes down to it...40k will always win...this is because thats the whole point of the universe. The 40k universe is a setting where situations such as starcraft and halo pop up and die out all the time and the universe barely notices. Thats why we love 40k ^_^ because we know that the things that ARE big players in it..are beyond anything else weve seen.

The Lensman Galactic Patrol (at the end of the books) would annihilate the entire 40k universe.

Just sayin'.

[Turalisj]

I vote that either the nids would win, or a surprise twist would show up that the Zerg are actually a spliner group of tyranids. (Blizzard DID steal the "giant organic space bugs that eat evrything" idea from games workshop after all)

Don't start that massive flame war up man. The idea is older than Warhammer 40k or any other modern thing.

[Lord_Gareth]

You know what this needs? Borg vs. Tyranids.

[Forum Explorer]

and, in the newest tyranid codex (as well as the main rulebook) multiple hive fleets are now attacking.

Leviathan is no longer at a standstill- and is beginning to rapidly move through that Ork empire.

Two believed-destroyed fleets have reawakened (Hive Fleet Jormungandr, Hive Fleet Colossus)

A new hive fleet (Magalodon) has risen from the wreckage of Hive Fleet Kraken.

A hive fleet (Hydra) has awakened early after being attacked by Dark Eldar, and is moving in.

Two hive fleets (Scylla and Charybdis) are moving toward Terra, through Segmentum Tempestus ("west" side of the galaxy).

So, the Nids have been "stepped up" as a threat.

At least till the new Ork codex comes out. :smalltongue:

Also I thought Jormungandr was completly destroyed except for the Doom of M?

But yeah Nids are scary. I don't think any one team (except for necrons) can take them on and win agaisnt the entire species.

[shadow_archmagi]

I don't think any one team (except for necrons) can take them on and win agaisnt the entire species.

I'm pretty sure that the Imperium could through sheer numbers, if they weren't so pre-occupied with chaos and orks and stuff.

Chaos might stand a chance if they actually bothered to attack anyone but the Imperium.

An Orky planet has been shown to be a decent obstacle, so presumably a multi-planet Waaaagh (Like in the Ork ending of Soulstorm) could stand a chance.

The Eldar couldn't because they're plot-bound to a single script:

Humans: Hello!
Eldar: Monkeys! Shoot them!
Humans: Counterattack!
Eldar: Oh no, you killed us! We were stopping the BAD THING!

(No seriously, in Dawn of War 1 they're guarding a sealed chaos demon, in the expansions they're trying to fight Necrons, and in Dawn of War 2 they're trying to stop the Tyranids. Every single time they completely fail to mention this until after you've shot them all. Ugh.)

[Forum Explorer]

I'm pretty sure that the Imperium could through sheer numbers, if they weren't so pre-occupied with chaos and orks and stuff.

Chaos might stand a chance if they actually bothered to attack anyone but the Imperium.

An Orky planet has been shown to be a decent obstacle, so presumably a multi-planet Waaaagh (Like in the Ork ending of Soulstorm) could stand a chance.

The Eldar couldn't because they're plot-bound to a single script:

Humans: Hello!
Eldar: Monkeys! Shoot them!
Humans: Counterattack!
Eldar: Oh no, you killed us! We were stopping the BAD THING!

(No seriously, in Dawn of War 1 they're guarding a sealed chaos demon, in the expansions they're trying to fight Necrons, and in Dawn of War 2 they're trying to stop the Tyranids. Every single time they completely fail to mention this until after you've shot them all. Ugh.)

Yeah the Eldar do get hit with that in the games. Its a little better in the fluff of the rulebooks though.

[Eldariel]

Kinda boring stalemate unless they start destroying planets for value. Hell, Zerg don't even need planets; they're perfectly capable of living in space. Their big advantage is that there's a literally infinite number of them; you'll never be able to kill all the Zerg.

One big question is also if there's anything the Tyranids could do about the Cerebrates or Overmind; I don't think they're very apt in using the powers of the Void. Psy would probably be akin to the Khalan psionics (which the Zerg do have an access to also) which were demonstrably inefficient against the higher beings in the Zerg hierarchy.


It seems like a stalemate to me; there's an infinite number of both, it doesn't seem like either would be able to "outassimilate" each other (though what happens when the hiveminds meet would be an interesting question) and the key powers of Tyranids are out of reach for the Zerg (at least until some assimilation happens) while the key powers of the Zerg are invulnerable to the Tyranids (as Kerrigan proved, even the Zerg themselves cannot harm the Cerebrates or the Overmind). Big question would of course be whether the Overmind is alive or not.

[Clockworkchaos]

Kinda boring stalemate unless they start destroying planets for value. Hell, Zerg don't even need planets; they're perfectly capable of living in space. Their big advantage is that there's a literally infinite number of them; you'll never be able to kill all the Zerg.

One big question is also if there's anything the Tyranids could do about the Cerebrates or Overmind; I don't think they're very apt in using the powers of the Void. Psy would probably be akin to the Khalan psionics (which the Zerg do have an access to also) which were demonstrably inefficient against the higher beings in the Zerg hierarchy.


It seems like a stalemate to me; there's an infinite number of both, it doesn't seem like either would be able to "outassimilate" each other (though what happens when the hiveminds meet would be an interesting question) and the key powers of Tyranids are out of reach for the Zerg (at least until some assimilation happens) while the key powers of the Zerg are invulnerable to the Tyranids (as Kerrigan proved, even the Zerg themselves cannot harm the Cerebrates or the Overmind). Big question would of course be whether the Overmind is alive or not.

Do not confuse "very high numbers" with 'infinite'. They only have 'infinte' if you count their ability to make more as 'infinite' and by that argument every species has 'infinite' numbers. It is perfectly possible to kill all of either species, so long as you can kill them faster than they replace their dead. And as already pointed out the Tyranids are a lot more numerous than the Zerg. As for the key powers being out of reach for each, that doesn't really matter. If the Tyranids can kill the rest of the Zerb, the cerberates are helpless slugs.

[Forum Explorer]

The Tyrnids also have some weapons that can destroy the minds/souls of their targets. Like boneswords for example, or the Doom of M for another.

What would happen to a Cerebrete hit by one of those?

[Selrahc]

The Lensman Galactic Patrol (at the end of the books) would annihilate the entire 40k universe.

Just sayin'.

Or the Culture. A recent conflict against a technologically comparable foe destroyed a half dozen stars, 60 planets and numerous rings and spheres, hundreds of space stations and millions of combat vessels. It was considered a relatively minor conflict in terms of losses.
Or the Timelords, who dance across time and space and reconfigure the universe.
Or the Celestials, universe roaming demi-gods, who create planets and life at whim.

And that is just keeping it below the level of the omnipotent. 40K isn't unbeatable.

[Forum Explorer]

Or the Culture. A recent conflict against a technologically comparable foe destroyed a half dozen stars, 60 planets and numerous rings and spheres, hundreds of space stations and millions of combat vessels. It was considered a relatively minor conflict in terms of losses.
Or the Timelords, who dance across time and space and reconfigure the universe.
Or the Celestials, universe roaming demi-gods, who create planets and life at whim.

And that is just keeping it below the level of the omnipotent. 40K isn't unbeatable.

I don't know that sort of stuff existed in the 40K verse before. Like the Old Ones, the C'tan, and the Enslavers.

But yeah the 40K verse couldn't stand up to things of such ridicolous power as the Tegen Toppa Gurren Lagan.

[Tavar]

I seem to remember one very long thread detailing one possible way to beat 40k. Team up of Honor Harrington, the Empire/Star Wars, and the Enderverse.

Also, you forgot the Care Bears.:smalleek:

[Turalisj]

I seem to remember one very long thread detailing one possible way to beat 40k. Team up of Honor Harrington, the Empire/Star Wars, and the Enderverse.

Also, you forgot the Care Bears.:smalleek:

Don't forget Daniel Jackson there too.

[shadow_archmagi]

I don't know that sort of stuff existed in the 40K verse before. Like the Old Ones, the C'tan, and the Enslavers.

But yeah the 40K verse couldn't stand up to things of such ridicolous power as the Tegen Toppa Gurren Lagan.

Not *too* familiar with TTGL, but what about Titans?

[Tavar]

Titans? From where? That's a pretty common name.

[shadow_archmagi]

Titans? From where? That's a pretty common name.

These fellows (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Emperor_Titan)

[Tavar]

http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z77/Ilavator/ttgl.jpg

Yeah. That's not going to cut it.

[Selrahc]

Yeah. TTGL is a show that ends on a multiversal scale. It's one of the most high powered pieces of fiction ever. I honestly can't think of any non-omnipotent setting that defeats it.

[shadow_archmagi]

Yeah. TTGL is a show that ends on a multiversal scale. It's one of the most high powered pieces of fiction ever. I honestly can't think of any non-omnipotent setting that defeats it.

Ah. Okay then!

[Urist]

Something to consider here: people are discounting the Flood capacity for infinite knowledge retention and ability to infest near any living creature. Imagine if the flood absorb one Nid or Zerg. They immediately have every piece of knowledge that organism contains shared immediately among them all. Nid hivemind is a bit of a disadvantage in that case, isn't it? Also, assuming that this is a three-way battle, in any ground battlefield the Flood have the advantage of immediately infesting any dead Nid or Zerg found. The Nids eventually re-assimilate the biomass, but the Flood do it right away, within a matter of seconds upon finding a corpse. Still probably not enough to tip it in their favor, but some things to think about.

[shadow_archmagi]

Something to consider here: people are discounting the Flood capacity for infinite knowledge retention and ability to infest near any living creature. Imagine if the flood absorb one Nid or Zerg. They immediately have every piece of knowledge that organism contains shared immediately among them all. Nid hivemind is a bit of a disadvantage in that case, isn't it? Also, assuming that this is a three-way battle, in any ground battlefield the Flood have the advantage of immediately infesting any dead Nid or Zerg found. The Nids eventually re-assimilate the biomass, but the Flood do it right away, within a matter of seconds upon finding a corpse. Still probably not enough to tip it in their favor, but some things to think about.

To be fair though also, the Flood appears to rely almost entirely on processed corpses. If the Zerg started deploying banelings en mass....

[Lord_Gareth]

Something to consider here: people are discounting the Flood capacity for infinite knowledge retention and ability to infest near any living creature. Imagine if the flood absorb one Nid or Zerg. They immediately have every piece of knowledge that organism contains shared immediately among them all. Nid hivemind is a bit of a disadvantage in that case, isn't it? Also, assuming that this is a three-way battle, in any ground battlefield the Flood have the advantage of immediately infesting any dead Nid or Zerg found. The Nids eventually re-assimilate the biomass, but the Flood do it right away, within a matter of seconds upon finding a corpse. Still probably not enough to tip it in their favor, but some things to think about.

Air power. The Flood have none, the Zerg and 'Nids live it.

[Forum Explorer]

Something to consider here: people are discounting the Flood capacity for infinite knowledge retention and ability to infest near any living creature. Imagine if the flood absorb one Nid or Zerg. They immediately have every piece of knowledge that organism contains shared immediately among them all. Nid hivemind is a bit of a disadvantage in that case, isn't it? Also, assuming that this is a three-way battle, in any ground battlefield the Flood have the advantage of immediately infesting any dead Nid or Zerg found. The Nids eventually re-assimilate the biomass, but the Flood do it right away, within a matter of seconds upon finding a corpse. Still probably not enough to tip it in their favor, but some things to think about.

It wouldn't work because weirdly the Nids have a defence for that. The non-synapse creatures don't have any of the knowladge needed while the bigger things like Zoranthropes and Hive Tyrants just have knowladge they need to win that battle/war/use their skills.

[Shyftir]

'Nids aren't exactly a species with intelligence, they are more like a collection of highly effective instinct. Knowing what the 'Nids do doesn't always beat them. 'Nid tactics don't change a lot from one player to another but 'Nid players still win about as often as anybody else.

Now if the Zerg and 'Flood were to somehow effectively combine...

[Lord_Gareth]

'Nids aren't exactly a species with intelligence, they are more like a collection of highly effective instinct. Knowing what the 'Nids do doesn't always beat them. 'Nid tactics don't change a lot from one player to another but 'Nid players still win about as often as anybody else.

Now if the Zerg and 'Flood were to somehow effectively combine...

Zerg assimilate the Flood, create the Flerg.

[An Enemy Spy]

This is a stupid argument anyway because nothing in the 40k universe actually has any limitations. Everythings capabilities are whatever the writer feels like making it. No consistency of any kind. So 40k has an automatic Win Button against everything you could think of, because hey, why not?

[Draconi Redfir]

This is a stupid argument anyway because nothing in the 40k universe actually has any limitations. Everythings capabilities are whatever the writer feels like making it. No consistency of any kind. So 40k has an automatic Win Button against everything you could think of, because hey, why not?

Are you saying evryone and evrything in warhammer 40k is a mary sue?


... dear god... so THAT'S were they go when you banish them...

[The Glyphstone]

Are you saying evryone and evrything in warhammer 40k is a mary sue?


... dear god... so THAT'S were they go when you banish them...

It's more like 40K is where Mary Sues go to die - it's so horrifically over the top and grimdark than even the mightiest God Mode Sue ends up dying horribly and having its soul torn into a million pieces.

[ThirdEmperor]

Exactly. In fact, I need to run a game where everyone creates the most idiotically Mary Sue-ish character they can, then the Warhammer universe tears them to shreds.

[Lord_Gareth]

Are you saying evryone and evrything in warhammer 40k is a mary sue?


... dear god... so THAT'S were they go when you banish them...

No, they go to Arcadia and fuel the existential horror that is Changeling: the Lost.

[Turalisj]

Are you saying evryone and evrything in warhammer 40k is a mary sue?


... dear god... so THAT'S were they go when you banish them...

That's a pretty good assessement of the WH40k verse, and it matches up the arguement the 40k fans always bring to these topics:

Random Poster #53: Yea, well X can do Y
WH40k Fan: Yea? Well our version of X can do Y THIRTY BILLION TIMES BETTER! While doing a handstand and singing the national anthem of the UK and humming the American national anthem with it's buttcheeks!

[Tavar]

That's not entirely true. The problem is that most things they're compared to are threats on a different scale. The zerg are threats to a sector of space. It's not clearly defines how big this sector is, but it's smaller than, say, 1/4 of the galaxy. The Nid's are a threat to the entire glaxay, and their full force hasn't even been brought to bear.

[NineThePuma]

Flood seem to be being written off very quickly. HEre's a thought: Flood infect an Overlord or a psyker Nid or something. Suddenly, BAM, the Gravemind has access to their thoughts, their plans, everything. He could, like, talk the Zerg overmind into integrating!

[Lord_Gareth]

Flood seem to be being written off very quickly. HEre's a thought: Flood infect an Overlord or a psyker Nid or something. Suddenly, BAM, the Gravemind has access to their thoughts, their plans, everything. He could, like, talk the Zerg overmind into integrating!

This is speaking as a Halo fan: the Gravemind is a chump. Like, seriously a chump. The Overmind (or Kerrigan) isn't going to compromise or negotiate. They will assimilate a Flood strain, rape the hell out of its genetics to make Flerg, and they will move on.

[Forum Explorer]

Flood seem to be being written off very quickly. HEre's a thought: Flood infect an Overlord or a psyker Nid or something. Suddenly, BAM, the Gravemind has access to their thoughts, their plans, everything. He could, like, talk the Zerg overmind into integrating!

Nids plan can be summed up as eating everything that isn't inorganic or on fire. On a battle basis they use some serious stratagies but overall they just advance relativly randomly throughout the galaxy.

[BladeofOblivion]

I'll agree that, while the Tyranids are the obvious victor, due to their Mary-Sue-Insane-Kill-Process-Recycle-Everything-Superpowers, the Zerg are probably the weakest faction here. Everyone writes off the Flood Very Quickly. Why? The Flood are not only, like the Tyranids, an Extragalactic Threat, but they are capable of infesting pretty much anything Biological.

Further, I heard someone mention that they have no Air Power. Wrong. Using things like Proto-Graveminds, Flood are perfectly capable of Flying Ships. Heck, they were using Commander Keyes' memories to try to find Earth, at the same time as using the Knowledge of a few Elites to work on REPAIRING A STARSHIP SO THEY COULD FLY IT TO EARTH. Flood are intelligent enough, even without an active Gravemind, to use what amounts to a rundown of Covenant Technology to actually work on fixing a starship. If a certain Spartan hadn't come along, they might even have succeeded.

Flood-possessed Elites and Grunts are still capable of operating weapons. Let that sink in. They can take whatever human or whatever armament is on the ground, and actually pick it up and shoot it at their enemies.

If this takes place in the Halo Universe, it means they have access to things like the Halo 1 Pistol.

If this takes place in Starcraft, it means they can pick up all those cool Terran and Protoss superguns and go to town.

If this takes place in the W40Kverse, then they can pick up things like Meltaguns and Bolters. This is perhaps the most devastating, due to the aforementioned fact that all W40K factions are pretty much Mary-Sues.


With a Gravemind, things get even worse. Gravemind is capable of absorbing biomass near him, so the other two factions couldn't even meaningfully assault it with their normal units, since they would simply make Gravemind bigger and stronger.
Gravemind's Mouth spills infection forms out like foam whenever he opens it, and as the gameplay mechanics of Halo 3 show, it only takes one infection form to completely infest a man-to-elite-sized target, as long as it is unshielded. To my knowledge, neither Tyranids nor Zerg have any meaningful energy shields.
Gravemind is hardly the equal of Kerrigan, but it is shown by existing records of the Forerunner-Flood War that Gravemind is a shrewd tactician and very persuasive.
Even stranger is that Gravemind seems to be capable of gaining control of Artificial Intelligences as well as biological ones, though that matters little for the purposes of this exercise.

Also, when the Flood have a hive already set up, like the Infestation of High Charity that can be seen in Halo 3, they no longer have a need for intact bodies. Indeed, much of the level is coated in thick biological growth, and covered in Incubators for the Infection forms.

[Draconi Redfir]

Exactly. In fact, I need to run a game where everyone creates the most idiotically Mary Sue-ish character they can, then the Warhammer universe tears them to shreds.

i'd play it... as an inteligent tyranid gone good yet still trying to fight the lingering hunger and call of the hive mind inside him oh woe is him!

[shadow_archmagi]

I'll play an Eldar!

I was going to elaborate, but the unearthly beauty, magic powers, tragic past, constant internal struggle, arrogance...

It's all there already!

Oh, my Eldar has color changing eyes.

[Shyftir]

I'm a Tau. Born of a union between ethereal and fire caste. I have latent psycher powers that allow me to pilot a Titan-sized Tau battlesuit. Also I've recovered a long-lost Necron artifact, a Titan-sized god-sycthe! that makes me good at melee combat. Also I can shoot rail-gun ammunition out my eyes.

Also I have more cowbell.

[The Glyphstone]

eh, I can top you all.

I'm a perfectly ordinary human, living on a civilized world that never gets invaded, bombarded, purged, plagued, or eaten. I'm happy, well-fed, and decently paid for my job. I have a family that I love and care for, and who are all as equally as normal and happy as I am. Having the Emperor's Tarot read for me revealed that I will die of old age in my bed, surrounded by grandchildren.


In the 40K setting, can you get more MarySue-ish than that?:smallsmile:

[shadow_archmagi]

eh, I can top you all.

I'm a perfectly ordinary human, living on a civilized world that never gets invaded, bombarded, purged, plagued, or eaten. I'm happy, well-fed, and decently paid for my job. I have a family that I love and care for, and who are all as equally as normal and happy as I am. Having the Emperor's Tarot read for me revealed that I will die of old age in my bed, surrounded by grandchildren.


In the 40K setting, can you get more MarySue-ish than that?:smallsmile:

Whoop! You left one out.

Your world succumbs to heresy, and you get unnaturally drained of your life-force by slaneesh daemonettes, and your "grandchildren" are unnatural warp abominations.

[Draconi Redfir]

What's next? a Necron that managed to retain it's Necron'tyr mind and escaped the grasp of the C'tan?

Also: My Tyranid can become his own hive mind so he can fight in diffrent places at once.

[Forum Explorer]

Mine is the natrual son of the Emperor and the Chaos gods and raised by the Eldar (all of them at once!) Torn between order and Chaos he wanders the galaxy to inspire others to either side in order to see the results. Has bright golden eyes and can stop a Baneblade with a glance. Is hunted by the Inquistion but had a group of renegades who are bringing him to the Golden Throne in order to heal the Emperor and restart the crusades.

[golentan]

I'd play a clone of the Emprah who at age 13 gained control of his own space marine chapter and broken free of the silly strictures of imperial society in order to save the universe. :smalltongue:

On topic, I'm going with "none of them." None of them win, though the flood (arguably) loses. One of the cool things the zerg have going for them is the ability to infest and convert individuals who are sufficiently knowledgeable and useful (see Kerrigan). The grave mind absolutely qualifies for this, being a recreatable source of vast cosmic knowledge that the Zerg can incorporate to fight off the tyranids. Over the course of a few generations, the tyranids make steady progress at devouring zerg, limited only by travel speed, while the zerg consume the flood and start a desperate bio-arms race for survival against the tyrannids, stealing as many innovations as possible. By generation 10, the two sides have become nearly physically indistinguishable. By generation 20, their psionic arms race for control begins bleeding common thoughts into each others' hive minds. By generation 30, there is only the one unified mind, possessing the ancient cunning of all sides and the technological knowledge of the overmind. Everything else is so. Very. Screwed.

[Draconi Redfir]

Mine is the natrual son of the Emperor

I'd play a clone of the Emprah

BROTHERS!:biggrin:



But yeah i think it's safe to say any conflict between the three of them (Assuming of course they don’t all join hands/claws/whatever and sing kumbiah because they just fount long lost brothers) will just wind up in a singular meta-race, whether it was planned and aimed for or not.

[Volthawk]

(Assuming of course they don’t all join hands/claws/whatever and sing kumbiah because they just found long lost brothers)

Man, that's a great mental image.

[Silverraptor]

I like the look of the Necrons. Too bad I don't know too much about the Warhammer 40K universe. And being unable to purchase the novels, it doesn't look like I will know too much. Is it possible for someone to give me a summary separated into chapters of how the 40K universe is set?

[Forum Explorer]

I like the look of the Necrons. Too bad I don't know too much about the Warhammer 40K universe. And being unable to purchase the novels, it doesn't look like I will know too much. Is it possible for someone to give me a summary separated into chapters of how the 40K universe is set?

Go to a local Games Workshop and start reading the store copies of the Codexes. If they complain just say that you're thinking of starting but want a good idea of the races fluff first.

Or for a really quick summery
Imperial Guard
The hammer of the Emperor. Countless legions of squishy humans and really big tanks. Bad*** ordinaries.

Space Marines
Genetically engineered superhumans in the best armor and equitment mankind can muster. Not very many of them but bad*** enough for that to not make a difference. Basically each one is the MC from Halo.

Chaos Space Marine
Tratior Space marines who were corrupted by the evil Chaos Gods. In addition to the above they also have crazy powers and mutations granted for being so evil

Orks

WAAAAAAAAUGH!


Eldar
Space elves who created a Chaos god and nearly wiped themselves out. Now they live on giant artifical worlds called Craftworlds. Very powerful psykers who like to look into the future so they won't go extinct. Trap their own souls when they die so the Chaos god doesn't eat them.

Dark Eldar
Eldar who found that they could survive the Chaos god by eating other people's souls as well as achive immortality/enternal youth. The soul is enhanced if the body dies in extreme pain and fear so guess what they go around doing to other races.

Necrons
Immortal warriors who sold themselves to the star gods (C'tan) in exchange for immortaltiy and invincibiliy. Practically impossible to kill them. Only the highest ranking can think and they harvest people to feed to the C'tan

Tau
The most good race and still kinda evil. Long range specialists who allow other aliens to join their empire. Dispite being the youngest race they have very advanced technology. Belive in an ideal called the 'Greater Good'

Inquistion factions
split up into three groups they protect humanity from the Alien(Xenos), the Demon(Mallus) and the Heritic (Hereticus). Can comadeer anything in the Imperium to complete their mission.

Deamons
What evil god doesn't have the forces of ****? Split into four groups one for each god
Khorne: God of blood, battle, and war. BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD, SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE. Armies are mostly beserkers and close combat monsters

Tzeench: God of Change, Manipulation, Planning. Uses alot of magic and psykers. Does stuff for the lulz or perhaps its all part of the plan. Tons of mutations

Papa Nurgle: The cheerful god of disease and plagues. Very tough and makes his followers immune to all diseases and plagues by infecting them with them. Very disgusting but cheerful.

Slaanash: The god of pleasure and all stuff X rated. Created by the Eldar due to their excessive behaviors at the hight of their empire. All about seduction and pleasure. In their own way grosser than Nurgle.


Nids (I'm embarssed I forgot :smallredface:)
Bugs from another galaxy that attack planets, eat everything to make more bugs to eat the next planet. Rinse and repeat. Making their way through the galaxy.

[Silverraptor]

You know, if the Dark Eldar were smart, wouldn't they just farm orks?

[Draconi Redfir]

You forgot Tyranids. Giant space bugs that fly from galaxy to galaxy eat everything organic they can find, leave for the next galaxy, and then come back billions of years later when life has evolved in the first galaxy again.


Universal reset button.

[Zaydos]

You forgot Tyranids. Giant space bugs that fly from galaxy to galaxy eat everything organic they can find, leave for the next galaxy, and then come back billions of years later when life has evolved in the first galaxy again.


Universal reset button.

Wait so if they cleansed the galaxy of life would that kill the Chaos gods or at least deprive them of their power source?

[The Glyphstone]

You know, if the Dark Eldar were smart, wouldn't they just farm orks?

That would actually be quite stupid of them. Orks are, canonically, unable to experience fear, and they're awfully tough to boot. The most they'd get out of a captive ork that they successfully restrained while torturing to death would be a big load of angry frustration, which probably doesn't taste as good.

[Silverraptor]

That would actually be quite stupid of them. Orks are, canonically, unable to experience fear, and they're awfully tough to boot. The most they'd get out of a captive ork that they successfully restrained while torturing to death would be a big load of angry frustration, which probably doesn't taste as good.

What about the Grechin's? (I think thats how they're spelled) don't they reproduce fast? And the Orks intimidate them alot.>.>

[Forum Explorer]

What about the Grechin's? (I think thats how they're spelled) don't they reproduce fast? And the Orks intimidate them alot.>.>

Grechin are just Orks that got less nutriants growing up. When Orks die they release spores that grow into more Orks. So its really hard to stop an infestation of Orks.

[Draconi Redfir]

Wait so if they cleansed the galaxy of life would that kill the Chaos gods or at least deprive them of their power source?

i dont know, maybe they gain power from all the universe rather then just the milky way?

Or maybe the tyranids came before the gods, they were probably here before the old ones and Necrontyr after all.

[The Glyphstone]

Grechin are just Orks that got less nutriants growing up. When Orks die they release spores that grow into more Orks. So its really hard to stop an infestation of Orks.

technically, no - Gretchin are another Orkoid subspecies, but they're not Orks any more than Squigs or Snotlings are. Orks, Grots, Squigs, Snotlings, all grow from the spores that full-grown Orks shed all their lives (and after they're dead), but they are different types of creatures, not just underfed Orks.

As to the point at hand - Gretchin are itinerate cowards, so they can probably feel fear - but they're also incredibly fragile, so they wouldn't be able to withstand much torture or pain before dying. It'd be like feeding yourself with a bowl of rice, one grain at a time...you'd need a lot of Gretchin, to the point where it's more efficient to just take human/Eldar slaves like they do normally.

[Selrahc]

Gretchin definitely feel fear. And little else.

The situation is also rather more complex than "Orks who didn't get enough nutrients are Gretchin" The Gretchin are a species in the Ork ecosystem designed to prep the way for Orkish settlement. When ork spores land in a hospitable ecosystem they release first fungus for food. Then squigs which serve as food and numerous other functions including clearing out lesser local creatures. Then Gretchin and Snotlings, which build rudimentary settlements and set up agriculture. Then real Orks start to appear, smaller and less aggressive Orks are first. Using the Gretchin as slave labour, and sane enough to actually have decent civilian skills. Brewaz, Huntas, Skavengers, Diggaboyz. The orks that do all the building up that is needed pre waaagh. A real society arises. Then bigger and nastier Orks start to arise, and the society starts to rapidly militarise. This all takes place in less than a human generation, although it takes longer to go from the Feral stage that emerges to get on to full blown orkiness.

One could assume that the Dark Eldar find Gretchin unsatisfying for some reason despite the fear. They do farm humans and other species. The slave raids are because the constant internecine conflict in Commorragh sees heavy damage being done to the slaves.


The Chaos gods would be destroyed if all sentience were wiped out. Or at the least, radically changed. The warp would still exist. But the gods and daemons are primarily an echo of sentience.

[Zaydos]

The Chaos gods would be destroyed if all sentience were wiped out. Or at the least, radically changed. The warp would still exist. But the gods and daemons are primarily an echo of sentience.

Then wouldn't it be in their self-interest to help the Imperium against the Tyranids? Oh wait, Chaos Gods and self-interest do not always interract.

[Draconi Redfir]

Well like i said, just because sentience and life is wiped out in one galaxy doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist in another. if the milky way is devoured of life, the gods can probably just get ahead of the tyranids a few galaxies and start to make their presence known if they already haven’t.

[Lord_Gareth]

Point of interest: the Zerg only need to assimilate a single Flood in order to benefit the entire Swarm via DNA-rape.

[comicshorse]

Mine is the natrual son of the Emperor and the Chaos gods and raised by the Eldar (all of them at once!) Torn between order and Chaos he wanders the galaxy to inspire others to either side in order to see the results. Has bright golden eyes and can stop a Baneblade with a glance. Is hunted by the Inquistion but had a group of renegades who are bringing him to the Golden Throne in order to heal the Emperor and restart the crusades.


They pretty much have them already. The Emperor's sons ( Sensei ?)that the Illuminati cult plan to offer up to him to heal the Emperor.
Unless they've been written out of existence since last I checked

[BladeofOblivion]

Point of interest: the Zerg only need to assimilate a single Flood in order to benefit the entire Swarm via DNA-rape.

That's a very scary thought. In that case, we start getting Zerg capable of Shapeshifting, effectively using Terran weaponry, and being nigh-indestructible.

[Lord_Gareth]

That's a very scary thought. In that case, we start getting Zerg capable of Shapeshifting, effectively using Terran weaponry, and being nigh-indestructible.

Yep. Flerg.

Like I said, the Flood and their, "We need to assimilate corpses" problem = chumps.

[dgnslyr]

That's a very scary thought. In that case, we start getting Zerg capable of Shapeshifting, effectively using Terran weaponry, and being nigh-indestructible.

I thought they already could use terran tech? They've got all those Infested Terrans, after all. It's just a matter of being able to produce mechanical items, which they aren't capable of yet.

[Killer Angel]

Nids (I'm embarssed I forgot :smallredface:)


Don't worry. They won't forget you. :smalltongue:

[Eldan]

You all forgot someone in the grand list of sues.

I'm a Dark Eldar who turned away from his evil race to seek redemption among the Eldar. However, since they distrust him, he instead became a ranger and joined the Exodites.
He also dual-wields force sabers.

[Turalisj]

Don't worry. They won't forget you. :smalltongue:

That's because they still need something to wipe with ;)

[The Glyphstone]

They pretty much have them already. The Emperor's sons ( Sensei ?)that the Illuminati cult plan to offer up to him to heal the Emperor.
Unless they've been written out of existence since last I checked

I believe the last retcon turned the Cult of the Star-Child into a Tzeentchian plot. As usual.

[Killer Angel]

I believe the last retcon turned the Cult of the Star-Child into a Tzeentchian plot.

Ah, Tzeench... the 40K's version of Asmodeus. Sort of. :smallsmile:


As usual.

Lazy DM! :smalltongue:

[Draconi Redfir]

You all forgot someone in the grand list of sues.

I'm a Dark Eldar who turned away from his evil race to seek redemption among the Eldar. However, since they distrust him, he instead became a ranger and joined the Exodites.
He also dual-wields force sabers.

is your name Tizzird?

[Eldan]

Close.

I'm Noth'a Drisst-clo'un.

[The Glyphstone]

Ah, Tzeench... the 40K's version of Asmodeus. Sort of. :smallsmile:



It's the other way round - Asmodeus is Tzeentch's avatar in the D&D universe. Just as planned.:smallcool:

[Turalisj]

It's the other way round - Asmodeus is Tzeentch's avatar in the D&D universe. Just as planned.:smallcool:

Except DnD predates WH40k :smallwink:

To be specific, DnD was created in 1974 and WH40k was created in 1987, a full 13 years difference. And, honestly, the idea of a conniving demon/devil goes back to prehistory. It's literally as old as dirt.

[Warlawk]

Flood seem to be being written off very quickly. HEre's a thought: Flood infect an Overlord or a psyker Nid or something. Suddenly, BAM, the Gravemind has access to their thoughts, their plans, everything. He could, like, talk the Zerg overmind into integrating!

Or, more likely... it then realizes that both other factions have psykers powerful in a scale far beyond anything it is familiar with and said faction ends up just crushing the Gravemind out of existence and taking its special powers for themselves.


Nids plan can be summed up as eating everything that isn't inorganic or on fire.

Well, maybe if it's only a little bit on fire.

[Turalisj]

Or, more likely... it then realizes that both other factions have psykers powerful in a scale far beyond anything it is familiar with and said faction ends up just crushing the Gravemind out of existence and taking its special powers for themselves.

Go go mind rape!

Seriously, the Gravemind is nothing compared to the Overmind, Kerrigan, or whatever the 'nids have. The flood have no chance of coming out of this without being turned into someone's slave (and by slave, I mean devoured). It's like comparing a house cat to a mountain lion to the now extinct European lion. (flood > zerg > 'nids)

As far as zerg go.... They just don't match up in scale to the tyranids. I love starcraft, but the zerg are already having trouble fighting the protoss and terrans. There's no way they can face down such a large force as the Tyranids and win. Both sides' strong points are numbers and adaptability, and the 'nids beat them in both.

[shadow_archmagi]

Well, the Zerg are effectively a stripped down version of the 'Nids anyway. Same basic concept, but with no psykers (Except for Kerrigan) and no crotch cannons.

[Warlawk]

Well, the Zerg are effectively a stripped down version of the 'Nids anyway. Same basic concept, but with no psykers (Except for Kerrigan) and no crotch cannons.

Who doesn't love a crotch cannon that fires "genetic ammunition".

Just for the record, I think myself and a number of others are not trying to talk down to any specific faction. It's just a matter of scale. Flood isn't likely to be able to deal with zerg because zerg exist on a much larger scale, and correspondingly the same with zerg to tyranid. They're all cool and have their own strong points, it's just that each of them exists to fit into a completely different scale of story/game.

That viewpoint actually gives a very strong advantage to the flood for "cool factor" because they are much more likely to be functional to be used as a villain faction for an rpg game, so it makes us as gamers more likely to appreciate them and perhaps even encounter them in our gaming.

[Turalisj]

Give the three equal numbers, who would win then? It would be a matter of who can build forces faster.

And to be fair, maybe we should include a generic human force too.

[Forum Explorer]

I still think Nid's would win if they start with equal numbers because they would be able to get their numbers up faster.

[The Glyphstone]

Except DnD predates WH40k :smallwink:

To be specific, DnD was created in 1974 and WH40k was created in 1987, a full 13 years difference. And, honestly, the idea of a conniving demon/devil goes back to prehistory. It's literally as old as dirt.

That just shows how cunning Tzeentch is, he was able to insert himself into D&D retroactively.:smallbiggrin:
[/meme]

[golentan]

Given equal starting numbers and no outside forces, I've got to give it to the Zerg. The nids can more efficiently process whatever they come to, but their big disadvantage is that they move slowly on a cosmic scale. The zerg can leapfrog around them, secure strongpoints and once they're boxed in just keep hammering them while expanding. If I remember aright, anyway, the zerg have really good FTL whereas the nids get to sit at the back of the bus.

On the other hand, throwing in other species with that logic likely gives the advantage to the flood, who can move in and set up shop pretty darn quick themselves and have the best FTL of the mix.

[Forum Explorer]

Given equal starting numbers and no outside forces, I've got to give it to the Zerg. The nids can more efficiently process whatever they come to, but their big disadvantage is that they move slowly on a cosmic scale. The zerg can leapfrog around them, secure strongpoints and once they're boxed in just keep hammering them while expanding. If I remember aright, anyway, the zerg have really good FTL whereas the nids get to sit at the back of the bus.

On the other hand, throwing in other species with that logic likely gives the advantage to the flood, who can move in and set up shop pretty darn quick themselves and have the best FTL of the mix.

You can't leap behind the Nids because they leave nothing left. And how do you box something in in space?

[Mr. Scaly]

That just shows how cunning Tzeentch is, he was able to insert himself into D&D retroactively.:smallbiggrin:
[/meme]

That's what he wanted you to think.

[DragonOfUndeath]

It basically comes down to this
Flood: pretty tough in their home galaxy due to lack of competition (Humans are less advanced than WH40K or Terrans) and would have won if not for MC.

Tyrannids: Regularly beat down MC-Clones with Hive Fleets. Which are SCOUTING PARTIES! They exist in Mary-Sue-World where thinking bad stuff gets you mutated and killed. Tiny tendrils of the 'Nid force could take down the Imperium if they weren't tied up decimating the rest of the Universe.

Zerg: Small-Scale. They have trouble taking out Protoss and Terrans in one sector of space, the Terrans and Protoss would be wiped out completely by an Ork WAAGH! or an Eldar atack. Even the Imperial Guard with even numbers would be able to take them.

In short: Flood = not tough enough
Zerg = too small
'Nids = Mary Sue

[The Glyphstone]

They exist in Mary-Sue-World



where thinking bad stuff gets you mutated and killed.



'Nids = Mary Sue


This phrase, I do not think it means what you think it means.

[Forum Explorer]

Mary sue's are relative correct? So 40K can only be considered a Mary sue when compared to other works that are as over the top.

[Lord_Gareth]

Mary sue's are relative correct? So 40K can only be considered a Mary sue when compared to other works that are as over the top.

...No. Mary Sue =/= Power Level. Mary Sues bend the rules of their universe around themselves to always be victorious.

[DragonOfUndeath]

Each race warps the universe to appear victorious depending on the author and main character.
The amount of rule-bending and sudden twists has kept the WH40K Universe in a stalemate.

[Forum Explorer]

Each race warps the universe to appear victorious depending on the author and main character.
The amount of rule-bending and sudden twists has kept the WH40K Universe in a stalemate.

Well they have to or the game would end and we would be out of a hobby. Now I suppose they could try to restrain themselves to a set powerlimit which some do. Not many but some.

[Semidi]

If Jaedong is controlling the Zerg neither race stands a chance. They're both close enough to Zerg (zerg being a Tyranid rip-off) that Jaedong's superior micro and macro will allow him to destroy both races with a control group of mutalisks.

[TheSummoner]

Each race warps the universe to appear victorious depending on the author and main character.
The amount of rule-bending and sudden twists has kept the WH40K Universe in a stalemate.

Now... Pretty much all of my 40K experience comes second hand (I don't play, but I have a few friends who are really into it and I read a bit on the internets), but isn't that because of unreliable narrarators? Like... Isn't it where regardless of the book, it is heavily biased towards whatever faction it represents?

[dgnslyr]

If Jaedong is controlling the Zerg neither race stands a chance. They're both close enough to Zerg (zerg being a Tyranid rip-off) that Jaedong's superior micro and macro will allow him to destroy both races with a control group of mutalisks.

Not even, perhaps, some kind of TLO madness? :smallwink:

[golentan]

You can't leap behind the Nids because they leave nothing left. And how do you box something in in space?

Because you don't need to secure the space itself, you just need to secure the star systems to deny their tasty, tasty resources to the enemy. Study "Island Hopping" during World War II for a two-d variation: you don't have to patrol the whole ocean to deny it to your enemies.

So, while the nids are leaving nothing left of one system, the zerg have seized an additional 20 by jumping around the surrounding regions and turned everything the nids can reach in a reasonable time frame into fortress worlds. Si?

[Forum Explorer]

Because you don't need to secure the space itself, you just need to secure the star systems to deny their tasty, tasty resources to the enemy. Study "Island Hopping" during World War II for a two-d variation: you don't have to patrol the whole ocean to deny it to your enemies.

So, while the nids are leaving nothing left of one system, the zerg have seized an additional 20 by jumping around the surrounding regions and turned everything the nids can reach in a reasonable time frame into fortress worlds. Si?

Well we need some more parameters for even initial numbers. Such as distance apart. Anyways if a Nid fleet can take out a fortress world it can proboaly recoup its losses and move on to the next planet.

Also which human faction would we be using?

[DragonOfUndeath]

Halo Humans? Minus MC they won't be main contenders that might mess with the results like Terrans and Imperium will.

[Forum Explorer]

Halo Humans? Minus MC they won't be main contenders that might mess with the results like Terrans and Imperium will.

Works for me. I assume their empire will be at the center of all three invasions?

[DragonOfUndeath]

Triangle invasion. Each an equal distance from each other and the humans. For simplicities sake let's say the 'Nids have 2 Hive Fleets rather than a Galaxy-Spanning Empire.

[Lord_Gareth]

Triangle invasion. Each an equal distance from each other and the humans. For simplicities sake let's say the 'Nids have 2 Hive Fleets rather than a Galaxy-Spanning Empire.

One is more than enough.

[DragonOfUndeath]

Yes it is. but since there are two enemies I thought it would be better. cause the Hives don't really split much the two races would either gather in one place to fight and be attacked by the 'Nids or ally and flank the 'Nids.
It would end up a debate as to whether the Zerg and the Flood would ally or not.

[banthesun]

Lets just hope they don't spend enough time together to get to the point of symbiosis.

Pic related.
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad91/bluejanus/LootedCarnifex.jpg

If you're into ork/nid hybrids, here (http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=51806)'s a whole setting based on that (and every other possible thing that could go wrong, it seems like more of an attempt to make the universe of 40k even worse than it is).

[profitofrage]

ok heres my second post in this thread :P hopefully this one will settle things.

one word, Genestealers.

All it takes is one Genestealer, One brood lord to get to a planet controlled by the zerg..or flood.
This breed of Tyranid is specifically designed to control the minds of its hosts and through generations..create NEW pure strain genestealers. This is how Hive fleets pick there target planets.
A genestealer doesnt care what your technology base is, it doesnt care if your a hive intellegence or a form of desease. It doesnt need to..because this specific breed of tyranid HAS destroyed planets on its own before the fleet gets anywhere near the place.

The only hope the flood or zerg would have would be that they dont directly breed, but that wont save them for long. Ounce the genestealers understand this (matter of days) they will start corrupting the eggs the Zerg hatch from...soon the organic constructions themselves.
The Genestealers would in a matter of years would turn the zergs forces there into willing bio farms swelling under there guidance untill the Hive fleet arrives to eat its squishy goey mass..then start on the planet itself untill only the most useless of materials are left.

[Shyftir]

'Nids versus zerg is pretty much like asking a metalhead who would win between Lemmy and god. The answer is "trick question: Lemmy is god."

They are pretty much the same thing. Always have been always will be.

[golentan]

ok heres my second post in this thread :P hopefully this one will settle things.

one word, Genestealers.

All it takes is one Genestealer, One brood lord to get to a planet controlled by the zerg..or flood.
This breed of Tyranid is specifically designed to control the minds of its hosts and through generations..create NEW pure strain genestealers. This is how Hive fleets pick there target planets.
A genestealer doesnt care what your technology base is, it doesnt care if your a hive intellegence or a form of desease. It doesnt need to..because this specific breed of tyranid HAS destroyed planets on its own before the fleet gets anywhere near the place.

The only hope the flood or zerg would have would be that they dont directly breed, but that wont save them for long. Ounce the genestealers understand this (matter of days) they will start corrupting the eggs the Zerg hatch from...soon the organic constructions themselves.
The Genestealers would in a matter of years would turn the zergs forces there into willing bio farms swelling under there guidance untill the Hive fleet arrives to eat its squishy goey mass..then start on the planet itself untill only the most useless of materials are left.

Zerg don't reproduce in a manner that allows hybrid breeding. Your argument is invalid.

[hamishspence]

Zerg eggs come from somewhere...

If the 'stealer can infect whatever's producing the eggs, it could produce Zerg/Tyranid hybrid eggs.

[golentan]

Yes, but that means (as I understand it) meaningfully infesting the lair and the creep itself. And I'm not at all convinced that you can successfully inject your own dna to take control of something that specifically is designed to contain the dna of dozens of types of organisms and selectively manifest traits as needed. Even if you can sneak past the crazy defenses.

[Draconi Redfir]

Maybe the genestealsers could just steal/infect the eggs, and simply wipe out the Zerg by not allowing them to reproduce.

[HalfTangible]

Everyone seems to be forgetting a few things about the zerg and flood:

Flood:

A) there's no way to kill the flood without starving them to death, since even a single flood spore is enough to rebuild their entire race. Tyranids are tough but i'm pretty sure they can't kill things at the level of a spore.

B) The Tyranids work galaxy wide, but they work a galaxy one sector at a time (at least, one per fleet). The Flood brought the Forerunners - beings who inhabited the entire galaxy who could create weapons to wipe out said galaxy of all organic life - to the brink of extinction.

C) While tyranids can make more of themselves from just about anything, those bodies can still DIE. Which is all the flood need to take over a corpse.

Zerg:

A) Zerg are nature incarnate. They don't just adapt, they actively put themselves in situations where they are FORCED to adapt. The banelings and roaches were created by letting a human colony dig in until nothing the zerg threw at them worked, then they found explosive moss (not kidding) which they adapted into their own forms. Even if the tyranids began with the upper hand, the Zerg would adapt until they found a way to fight them - or even to turn their resource acquiring against them.

B) The zerg have fought psions (basically psykers) before, and often, when they fight the protoss. And they generally win.

C) Zerg can infest their targets. If the Tyranids throw anything at them that does not destroy them in a single blow (which seems doubtful since they have troops) the zerg will simply attack and infest the tyranid corpses in a matter of minutes.


Maybe the genestealsers could just steal/infect the eggs, and simply wipe out the Zerg by not allowing them to reproduce.

They'd have to do so to every single hive, and even then they'd still have to kill all the remaining zerg swarms.

[An Enemy Spy]

When you talk about the flood, are you thinking of them just having the combat forms seen in the Halo games? The human elite and brute forms? Because in this scenario, the combat forms would be zerg and nids, only freakier. Just something to remember.

[BladeofOblivion]

When you talk about the flood, are you thinking of them just having the combat forms seen in the Halo games? The human elite and brute forms? Because in this scenario, the combat forms would be zerg and nids, only freakier. Just something to remember.

Well, the pure forms should be the same, and we did assume Halo Humans in the middle.

[profitofrage]

Zerg don't reproduce in a manner that allows hybrid breeding. Your argument is invalid.

Zerg Eggs
All it takes is for that egg to hatch into a drone. That drone is then under the influence of the Genestealers and when it goes off to become a construction they control that and any of its offspring to.

If you dont think its possible that injecting DNA into something that is supposed to hold the genetic make up other creatures, then thats your right...but its rather silly.
The Zerg can alter DNA to create a legion of different breeds? but that same DNA cant be altered at all a second time?


In response to HalfTangible
I will admit the Flood would proove to be a bit more of a threat then expected. The spore like nature of the flood is difficult to overcome...HOWEVER the Tyranid has something that CAN fight on a spore level. Thats acid..bioacid and massive pits developed for reducing anything usefull into pits of gruel to later drink up. It would take the destruction of many Tyranids but they woud eventually either 1) become immune out of simple evolution. or 2) shut down the planet. There armies are to destroy fortifications and the local populace long enough to get the hive fleets to connect there tendrils to the planet and begin the conversion process.
Ounce this is done the Flood have lost...theres a practically infinite number of Tyranids to fight due to the absolute resources of the planet up for grabs. The flood will eventually be overcome..and a Flood cant get back up if hes been disolved.
Also to your notion that Zerg adapt. The Tyranids do to...in fact thats there whole concept. They created the genestealers as the perfect sabatours..the Zoanthrope to take advantage of psychic power. The heirphants to counter Titans. When they started attacking the psychic sensitive elder they created a breed of Zoanthrope capable of sucking out there souls and using the energy to get stronger..leading to the destruction of a craftworld ( a PLANET sized ship). I doubt the Zerg could evolve as fast as the Tyranids since the Tyranids can simply go "Want more armor..build me more armor next generation" (due to the Norn Queens) where as the Zerg need to first GAIN said traits via normal (albiet accelerated) evolution since they need the genetic stock to begin with.
As for the zerg infecting the Tyranids, I doubt they can do it en mass enough to make it useful. go ahead...take a gaunt..its not that much different from a zergling.. It wont matter. There are a thousand others ready that will kill that zergling and take all the corpses back to be turned to a gruel that your infections CANT survive in due to being atomised, or stolen and used against you.

[golentan]

I'm not arguing that injecting the DNA doesn't work, I'm arguing since the zerg have preexisting controls of what phenotype to manifest using it as a control method/to produce hybrids is unlikely to work. Kind of like installing a trojan on a computer that gets wiped and reinstalled down to the operating system any time it goes to run a new program. Unless you're writing to a very specific portion of it, your DNA will be ignored at best and pulled apart and examined for advantage at worst.

Even if it did, I don't see how the local portion of the zerg hivemind wouldn't immediately notice that the critter had a mind of it's own. In fact, I'm pretty sure the Overseer's psychic link means that the hive would literally be watching at the precise moment when the genestealer infected a target, negating one of their chief advantages (surprise). And it seems it would be painfully obvious to a psychic network that something fishy was up involving another psychic network causing select units to act erratically.

[Forum Explorer]

I don't think the Genestealers would be able to establish a cult on a zerg world. They could still act as nasty inflitrators to weaken defences though.

The Flood spores? When Nids eat a planet they kill everything on a microscopic level. So not even the spores would be left afterwards. They eat their own dead as well so the Flood wouldn't even get more troops from them.


Zergs adapatability isn't as good as Nids. They saw a Ork Warboss was all that was keeping the Orks resistance high enough to win the battles, created a series of assassin lictors, than devised a stratagy that would piss the warboss off so the lictors could get through.

[DragonOfUndeath]

It all comes down to numbers. The 'Nids have a LOT. More after they consume a planet. Attrition doesn't work on a planetary scale as their dead is reabsorbed into the Hive as well as the rest of the planet for a net gain. Their adaption is also more logical and focused due to being kinda sentient and making every soldier specifically.

[Warlawk]

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Hive_Fleet


By the adaptive nature of the Hive Fleets, fierce resistance on a planet will only make the fleet stronger in the end; for this reason only a few tactics have been found to work. The first is to draw the Tyranids into a large ground battle, forcing the fleet to deploy as large a ground force as possible. Once this is achieved, the planet is evacuated, following with Exterminatus as the Tyranids strip the life of the planet. This tactic is effective as Hive Fleets are dependent on the impetus gained from absorbing each conquered planet; the Hive Fleet will also have lost the biological "energy" expended to conquer it, including all of the bio-material of the ground forces and by the nature of Exterminatus will not be able to recover any from the planet. This tactic is extreme and also damaging to the Imperium, as it destroys a valuable and habitable planet every time. It has been projected that there may not even be enough habitable planets in the galaxy to stop the Tyranid threat, especially if more Tyranid fleets arrive from outside the galaxy.

Not enough habitable planets in the galaxy to wipe them out when you're killing them en masse on a planetary scale. That means forcing them to use an unusual amount of ground troops then completely denying them reclamation of all those troops and of the planetary resources as well. And even with such extreme measures there may not be enough planets to actually deal with their numbers.

[DragonOfUndeath]

So what your saying is the only way to stop a 'Nid invasion is to destroy vaste amounts of planets an do it to EVERY single planet they invade or it's all for naught?

[The Glyphstone]

So what your saying is the only way to stop a 'Nid invasion is to destroy vaste amounts of planets an do it to EVERY single planet they invade or it's all for naught?

Or be good enough to force them to spend more biomass winning then they'll recoup from eating the entire planet. That's how it's usually done in 40K - the planetbusters are considered a last resort.

[comicshorse]

So what your saying is the only way to stop a 'Nid invasion is to destroy vaste amounts of planets an do it to EVERY single planet they invade or it's all for naught?

I'd also think defeating them in space would work as that gives them very limited opportunities to recoup biomass

[Tavar]

Or to beat them on the ground.

[Forum Explorer]

Yes the only other way to beat them is to flat out destroy them when they attack with overwhelming power. Like what happened with the Ultramarines who barely pulled it off with some luck.

[Urist]

On the spore like nature of the Flood: In the(admittedly inconsistent) expanded universe, the Flood not only sprout biomass from spores, but can infest/infect creatures if they are exposed to enough spores. Also, the flood thrive in moist, hot environments. What's the first thing the Nids do when terraforming a planet to prepare for scrapping? The heat and humidity would stimulate massive growth, which would release tremendous amounts of spores. Even if the Flood ground force is utterly decimated, the Flood spores coat, infect, and hitch rides with the Tyrannids. Once on a Hiveship, the Flood proceeds to use the tremendous amount of available biomass, and then you have High Charity all over again.

[Forum Explorer]

On the spore like nature of the Flood: In the(admittedly inconsistent) expanded universe, the Flood not only sprout biomass from spores, but can infest/infect creatures if they are exposed to enough spores. Also, the flood thrive in moist, hot environments. What's the first thing the Nids do when terraforming a planet to prepare for scrapping? The heat and humidity would stimulate massive growth, which would release tremendous amounts of spores. Even if the Flood ground force is utterly decimated, the Flood spores coat, infect, and hitch rides with the Tyrannids. Once on a Hiveship, the Flood proceeds to use the tremendous amount of available biomass, and then you have High Charity all over again.

They wouldn't get aboard as anything more than digestive gruel.

[DragonOfUndeath]

Even the surviving 'Nids are broken down to digestive gruel. 'Nids live for 1 war maximum.
Also since Hive Ships don't really have physical contact the Flood wouldn't be able to go from ship to ship

[BladeofOblivion]

Even the surviving 'Nids are broken down to digestive gruel. 'Nids live for 1 war maximum.
Also since Hive Ships don't really have physical contact the Flood wouldn't be able to go from ship to ship

The Flood are capable of Flying Ships and survival in Vacuum. It's kinda absurd what any of these three factions can do if they try hard enough.

[DragonOfUndeath]

Yes but they wouldn't be able to colonize new ships except after destroying it. So their space-capabilities are limited copared to the others.

[Avilan the Grey]

I don't know anything about the Flood, but to me they reminds me of the Orks. Orks are spore-based lifeforms, and a single spore can rebuild the race. The Orks has in the middle of their territory a 'Nid hive fleet, which has been fought to a standstill. The Orks simply grow quicker than the 'Nids can kill them.

As for the Zerg: I agree with those who say that the 'Nids could not corrupt them. The Zerg are in complete control as of what genes should be activated. And HOW they would be activated. That basically gives us two scenarios... Either the developing zerg would just avoid activating the 'nid genes, or it would activate them in a way it could control.

[Lord_Gareth]

I don't know anything about the Flood, but to me they reminds me of the Orks. Orks are spore-based lifeforms, and a single spore can rebuild the race. The Orks has in the middle of their territory a 'Nid hive fleet, which has been fought to a standstill. The Orks simply grow quicker than the 'Nids can kill them.

The key difference is that the Orks can actually fight, and also breed faster.

[BladeofOblivion]

I don't know anything about the Flood, but to me they reminds me of the Orks. Orks are spore-based lifeforms, and a single spore can rebuild the race. The Orks has in the middle of their territory a 'Nid hive fleet, which has been fought to a standstill. The Orks simply grow quicker than the 'Nids can kill them.

A handy link to a wiki article. (http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Flood)

Orks are more directly capable at combat, but the Flood have some nasty tricks of their own. For Example, a single Infection form can instantly take down most unshielded things, transforming it into a Flood Creature.

[Killer Angel]

So what your saying is the only way to stop a 'Nid invasion is to destroy vaste amounts of planets an do it to EVERY single planet they invade or it's all for naught?

...or luring them toward the orcs.



As for the Zerg: I agree with those who say that the 'Nids could not corrupt them. The Zerg are in complete control as of what genes should be activated. And HOW they would be activated.

And, in zerg territory, every zerg is under the control of the Overmind. If something is not under control, then it's an enemy.

[BladeofOblivion]

You know, I wish this (http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Flood_Juggernaut) was left in the Game.

That way, I could just point that out as an easy advantage. Considering it was programmed to one-shot MC...

[profitofrage]

I'm not arguing that injecting the DNA doesn't work, I'm arguing since the zerg have preexisting controls of what phenotype to manifest using it as a control method/to produce hybrids is unlikely to work. Kind of like installing a trojan on a computer that gets wiped and reinstalled down to the operating system any time it goes to run a new program. Unless you're writing to a very specific portion of it, your DNA will be ignored at best and pulled apart and examined for advantage at worst.

Even if it did, I don't see how the local portion of the zerg hivemind wouldn't immediately notice that the critter had a mind of it's own. In fact, I'm pretty sure the Overseer's psychic link means that the hive would literally be watching at the precise moment when the genestealer infected a target, negating one of their chief advantages (surprise). And it seems it would be painfully obvious to a psychic network that something fishy was up involving another psychic network causing select units to act erratically.

The psychic network of the zerg can be duplicated enough to send a (COME HERE EN MASS!) beacon. I doubt its so complex and controlled that the genestealers couldnt crack it and make fake signals in there genetically altered victims. Whats more, is this "DNA" controll they have is very similar to that of the Tyranids in nature...considering they are so familiar with it..im very sure they would know plenty of ways to get around it and target the pure strandes of DNA that all Zerg share (since they ALL derived from a certain type of worm thing). Its just like how the only way to make a desease to kill a hive fleet is to first get your hands on the Norn Queen. The only problem is EACH and every Hive spire (zerg) holds the secrets to there pure strain.