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View Full Version : Concussion from the Skies (sling fix, need help)



revquigley
2011-03-08, 02:01 AM
The sling is an ancient weapon, simple yet fairly powerful in trained hands. And yet it's capable of a measly 1d4. And as a simple weapon, maybe that's how it should be. But when used by someone with martial proficiencies... Anyway, I got it to where I liked it, but forgot about changing the range increment. And now I can't balance it. Can someone with more experience help?


Sling (martial)- As a move action, a player may gather a stone to fire. When doing so, the sling does 1d4 damage as stated in the PHB table 7-5. Alternatively, a player may load a lead bullet to do 1d6 damage. Loading a sling remains a two-handed move action that provokes attacks of opportunity, as well as being affected by the player’s Strength modifier. It does not qualify for Rapid Shot.
At close range, a sling may be used as a flail two sizes smaller than that of a sling (a medium sling, for instance, is considered a tiny flail and can inflict 1d4 damage). It takes a -4 penalty to trip attacks made, though they do not provoke an attack of opportunity and a player may still drop the sling to avoid being tripped themselves. However, it is difficult to keep a projectile in the pocket of the sling at close range- every successful melee strike removes the stone or bullet, requiring a reload. After every miss, there is a 50% chance it slipped out and landed in an adjacent square (minus the one containing the missed enemy).


This was already supposedly fixed in http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=189766&highlight=sling, though I feel as though it wasn't properly researched. Fifty feet is considered acceptable in that thread, though sheer distance in the Guinness World Records is recorded at 430-something meters (or 1290+ feet). Working backwards from there, I would think at least 75 is within accurate range, but now it seems overpowered...

Also. Math may be slightly off. I admit it.

Ashtagon
2011-03-08, 06:54 AM
Seeing as how I just did research on this, I should answer...

Damage: 1d4 vs 1d6: This isn't really a big deal of difference, and won't break anything game-balance-wise. If you want slings to do that little bit more, go wild.

Loading Time: Slings genuinely did have comparable loading times to bows, so a free action is entirely justified (and not having iteratives is a major nerf, as my numbers later in the other thread show for crossbows). In an area with loose rocks lying around, I'd make it a move action to load a sling from ground-strewn rocks (as opposed to a pouch full of ammunition, which should be a free action).

No Rapid Shot: Given the attack roll penalty for that feat, it's not a big deal either way.

Slings used as flails: A flail has a hard hitting surface. A sling is as likely to hurt you as a bra is (and yes, you can make quite a serviceable improvised sling from a bra, and historically this was done too). Using a sling as a melee weapon for any kind of lethal damage is pure fantasy physics; even non-lethal damage is pushing things as far as suspension of disbelief is concerned. In any case, shot is unlikely to stay in a sling with any exertion more vigorous than walking or marching.

Range: As I researched, 50 feet is a reasonable range. However, slings under raw benefit from Far Shot, and the additional feat I wrote allows to to reach a range increment of 100 feet with both feats. The SRD core actually replicates the real longbow range limits almost exactly, assuming the character has all relevant range feats. It's not fair that other weapons should reach their real-world records without needing feats too. Base range limits should be for what is typical performance, not for world records.

You might also want to double check the guiness world record figures. I was controlling for factors such as sling length, ammo weight, and material technology, each of which has a huge effect on actual range.

revquigley
2011-03-08, 04:48 PM
Yeahh, sorry for stepping on your toes here.

The damage is inconsequential for PCs as a weapon, but I had kinda thought this might flesh out some of the cannon fodder faced at earlier levels, specifically kobolds. Without a trap set up, they're often just melee attack/range attack/run. This introduces a few more options in combat, including trip and sunder attempts.

You're right about the flail, I suppose... Would it still be able to trip? With the penalty, of course.

And I couldn't find any definitive data on the record (didn't want to cite Wikipedia) but here's a page that supports my estimates: http://www.chrisharrison.net/projects/sling/index.html The record noted, by the way, was used with a stone instead of one of the more modern but further-flying lead shot or darts.

Ashtagon
2011-03-09, 12:33 AM
Yeahh, sorry for stepping on your toes here.

Don't worry. I welcome my conclusions being challenged.


]The damage is inconsequential for PCs as a weapon, but I had kinda thought this might flesh out some of the cannon fodder faced at earlier levels, specifically kobolds. Without a trap set up, they're often just melee attack/range attack/run. This introduces a few more options in combat, including trip and sunder attempts.

You're right about the flail, I suppose... Would it still be able to trip? With the penalty, of course.

I'd consider allowing a sling (or bra :smalltongue: ) to be used as an improvised weapon that could be used to make trip or disarm attacks (disarm only against non-slashing weapons), but not to cause any damage. Anything more than that is pushing believability.


And I couldn't find any definitive data on the record (didn't want to cite Wikipedia) but here's a page that supports my estimates: http://www.chrisharrison.net/projects/sling/index.html The record noted, by the way, was used with a stone instead of one of the more modern but further-flying lead shot or darts.

http://slinging.org/index.php?page=sling-ranges is my source for range. I controlled for shot weight (1/10 lb, +/- 50%, sling length (<120 cm), and technology ('good' pre-modern tech only), found the average, removed outliers (anything outside +/-50% of that average), and took the new average. I think I came up with 55 feet as my final figure.

http://www.chrisharrison.net/projects/sling/index.html gives 437 m, or 1433 feet, as the world record, set in 1981 (that number is indeed in - and beaten - the list of data I used). I dropped it as a data outlier, but allowed for it by having a new sling feat (Master Slinger) to still get good ranged. The theoretical range of my sling with Far Shot and Master Slinger is 1000 feet. That's with a chance of hitting a target mind you - can these distance slingers say the same? Distance competition follows quite different rules on what counts compared to target competition after all.

revquigley
2011-03-09, 02:03 AM
Awesome. I'm not going to argue my point any further, you've pretty much swayed me. Thanks a ton.