2 Problems with version 3.0/3.5

[gunnar11]

Hey everyone,

I was wondering if I could get some advice about two things:
First of all, people may have noticed that in the books it says that when you up your constitution by adding an ability point to it, and so changing the modifier, your HP goes up by 1 for every level. Personally I find this utmost ridicul9ous, but oh well, Those are the rules. Now my questions is: If it works like that with Constitution, does it also workj with INT and skill points, and also: Why bother upping your constitution from the start of the game, when you can also do it later, receiving the same amount of bonus HP? You could better invest it in other stats, giving you more of a bonus (like INT for skill points)

Second question, and totally unrelated: I'm planning on taking a prestige class: Tamer of Beasts (ToB). Now, a ToB lets you have animal companions , that become smarter and stronger etc. every time you take a level in ToB. So my question is: What happens if your animal companions become smarter than you? What happens if their INT score rises above yours? (The bond is based on trust and friendship, so they won't attack you or turn rebellious, but still)

[vikingofdoom]

Question 1: The reason that Con boosts are retroactive for HP but Int boosts aren't for skill points is that HP and Constitution are a measure of your toughness, and increase/decrease normally; whereas Int is a measure of your smartness, while skill points represent training, which has to be done at a certain time for it to have any effect. Other people can probably explain this more clearly than I can.

Question 2: With a animal companion/special mount/familiar/psicrystal/etc, nothing happens when your companion becomes smarter than you, except that they get a better bonus on Int-based checks than you do.

[grarrrg]

does it also workj with INT and skill points, and also: Why bother upping your constitution from the start of the game, when you can also do it later, receiving the same amount of bonus HP? You could better invest it in other stats, giving you more of a bonus

PF DOES add skill points for INT gain

As for why not dump CON early? Because at low levels you are a squishy meat bag that can be one-shotted by a Kobold with a Crossbow.
Short Answer: You need CON early to survive to the higher levels.

[Daefos]

Question 1: The reason that Con boosts are retroactive for HP but Int boosts aren't for skill points is that HP and Constitution are a measure of your toughness, and increase/decrease normally; whereas Int is a measure of your smartness, while skill points represent training, which has to be done at a certain time for it to have any effect. Other people can probably explain this more clearly than I can.

More or less this.

Constitution retroactively increases hit points because both measure the same thing: how tough you are. It makes sense that putting on a magic belt that makes you tougher than a car tire is going to make you harder to kill. Leveling up and putting points in Constitution works on the same principle, but would be more along the lines of you simply getting tougher from extended amounts of combat.

On the other hand, intelligence doesn't retroactively increase skill points because they are different things. Intelligence is how quickly you can learn new things, and how clearly you can think, while skill points are a measure of what you've already consciously attempted to learn. You don't get retroactive skill points to put in, say, Knowledge (nobility) because you can't retroactively read a book on royal genealogy. It lets you use this information more effectively (since Knowledge is governed by Intelligence), perhaps by improving your ability to see connections in what you've already read and improving your ability to extrapolate. But if you've only read up to page 50, no Intelligence boost is going to tell you what's on page 51.

Of course, some of this is based on out-of-game reasoning. A headband of intellect doesn't give you more skill points at level up, because otherwise a party could simply pass around the wizard's headband and get 1-3 extra skill points. It might make sense if your group takes leveling up to mean "takes a few months off to train", but is downright silly if you can level up between fights in a dungeon romp. Even having a +6 to Intelligence won't speed up your learning to the point where you're noticeably better at something you've presumably been practicing all this time if you're only wearing it for five minutes. If you want a fluff reason for this, perhaps improving your Intelligence improves how quickly you can learn new things and how clearly you can think, while putting on a magic headband only increases the latter.

[gunnar11]

I understand that INT does not work retroactively, because, as indeed said, you can't have retroactively read a book. However, it's also highly illogical that you spending 1 ability-point on CON making it into an ability modifier of +3 should have the same HP (assuming HD and rolls are the same) than someone with a CON modifier of +3, having that for an in-game time of 3 months or so?
Meaning that even though you both were fighting the same monsters and stuff you suddenly got tougher, and can now take the same damage as the other one can, even though you both did the same...
Doesn't seem that logical. Logic would demand that the other one also got tougher and also can take more damage than before.

[Yora]

Why illogical? That's what sports people, soldiers, and construction workers have all over the world since all time. You train your bosy, it becomes tougher.

[Cartigan]

PF DOES add skill points for INT gain


Not that it does you any good with less skills to choose from and a rank cap of equal to your hit die.

[Cartigan]

Doesn't seem that logical. Logic would demand that the other one also got tougher and also can take more damage than before.
Which would be represented by THEM putting points in Con. If they don't, then all their hardwork went to improving SOMETHING ELSE.

Let's say you are a rock. You've always been a rock - strong and sturdy and all that. Then one day this tree comes along and falls near your and eventually turns into rock (yes, I know, shut up). Is it not a rock because it was previously a tree?

[Mando Knight]

Then one day this tree comes along and falls near your and eventually turns into rock (yes, I know, shut up).

Hey, it happens (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petrified_wood). Generally takes a while, but that's not really the question...

[Daefos]

I understand that INT does not work retroactively, because, as indeed said, you can't have retroactively read a book. However, it's also highly illogical that you spending 1 ability-point on CON making it into an ability modifier of +3 should have the same HP (assuming HD and rolls are the same) than someone with a CON modifier of +3, having that for an in-game time of 3 months or so?
Meaning that even though you both were fighting the same monsters and stuff you suddenly got tougher, and can now take the same damage as the other one can, even though you both did the same...
Doesn't seem that logical. Logic would demand that the other one also got tougher and also can take more damage than before.

That is a bit silly, but I don't think it's necessarily beyond (fantasy) logic. If increased Con is a result of increased pain endurance/thickening or calloused skin/etc., then perhaps the fact that he was already tougher than you meant he got less "practice" out of the last adventure than you did. Or perhaps, due to the fact that damage output increases as your level increases, +1HP per HD doesn't actually make that much of a difference. Even at level 20, such a Con increase simply gives you 20 more HP, a pittance compared to the kind of damage you deal with on a regular basis (it might earn you, at best, another shot from that enemy Fighter). So even if the change seems dramatic and sudden from our perspective, in-universe it's not that big of a jump.

Of course, while I love this sort of fluff with all my heart, I'm partial to the idea that the real reason for this situation is that it's a game mechanic that wasn't meant to be examined so closely. :smalltongue:

EDIT:

Which would be represented by THEM putting points in Con. If they don't, then all their hardwork went to improving SOMETHING ELSE.

This is also smart.

[McSmack]

I think it's quite logical. Ultimately the body is just a tool, it's the level of experience of the person using the tool that matters.

Let's assume that you have two characters with identical class, race, levels and HP rolls. One character has a 15 Con and the other a 16.

The party together. They fight together. The take fireball damage together. One of them can take a bit more of a beating because he's in a little better shape than the other one.

Now if the weaker one trains a little harder, or uses a magic item that makes him a little healthier, he can take it just as much as the other. It wouldn't make sense for him to still be weaker (fewer total HP) than the other guy just because he didn't start with a 16 Con.

And honestly because if your Con mod only applied once to your HP total it would be a crap stat that no one would want.

[Cartigan]

And never mind the fact that when you level up, BOTH characters are increasing their HP anyway - like he wants.

[Swooper]

My initial reaction to the title of this topic: "Only two?"

Doesn't seem that logical. Logic would demand that the other one also got tougher and also can take more damage than before.
Your fallacy lies in trying to apply real-world logic to D&D. It works like that because the rules say it does, just like the rules of chess dictate that bishops only move diagonally. Real world bishops don't move only diagonally, yet no one has complained about the rules of chess... :smallamused:

[nyarlathotep]

I understand that INT does not work retroactively, because, as indeed said, you can't have retroactively read a book. However, it's also highly illogical that you spending 1 ability-point on CON making it into an ability modifier of +3 should have the same HP (assuming HD and rolls are the same) than someone with a CON modifier of +3, having that for an in-game time of 3 months or so?
Meaning that even though you both were fighting the same monsters and stuff you suddenly got tougher, and can now take the same damage as the other one can, even though you both did the same...
Doesn't seem that logical. Logic would demand that the other one also got tougher and also can take more damage than before.

It's to give a purpose to levelling up constitution late game. You don't have many level left to gain, and fortitude save eventually become either you autopass or autofail. Besides the same thing happens with strength suddenly you hit just as hard as someone who was strong all along.

[navar100]

You can have a reason for why Intelligence increasing gives you retroactive skill points. It's not that you suddenly read a book you never had; it's that you now remember what you already read or learned but had forgotten. It's not much different than when you gain a level and spend a point on a skill.

[cfalcon]

I like the reality based aspect of not having Int randomly make you good at stuff. Given that 4 ranks of a profession can represent a whole damned apprenticeship, suddenly gaining it when you put on a hat, or when your Int goes up at last for a natural reason, doesn't make sense.

However, Pathfinder's setup is MUCH smoother. In Pathfinder, your Int going up gives you those skill point right away, and stuff that boosts int comes with a free stack of skills, set when the item is created. So if you find a crown of Int +4, it will give you full proficiency in say, Leatherworking and Knowledge: Arcana (for instance). If you already HAVE those ranks, it doesn't do anything at all, and it doesn't stack with ranks you already have in it, but if you had, say, no knowledge of leatherworking and 4 ranks in Knowledge: Arcana, and are 10th level, you would benefit from 10 ranks of Leatherworking and 10 ranks of Knowledge: Arcana after having it on for a full day (13 ranks would be the 3.x equivalent).

I'd say go with what you like on that. If you find the gamey one to be a better fit, use that.

[Endarire]

1: It's easier to modify a single value for HP than it is to determine how many skill points you gained or lost because of your INT modifier.

2: By the default rules, nothing special happens if your "pet" is smarter/wiser/more charming than you. How you RP that is up to you.

[Rixx]

Not that it does you any good with less skills to choose from and a rank cap of equal to your hit die.

More skill points to spread over fewer skills that do more is a good thing. It means that each skill point is worth more.

And capping it at your hit die is not bad when you get +3 to that skill for free if it's a class skill.

And it's nice not having to keep track of when you got your INT increase when rolling up characters, or worrying about taking the class with the most skill points at first level to get that 4x skill points.

[Draz74]

And capping it at your hit die is not bad when you get +3 to that skill for free if it's a class skill.
Especially if it's not a class skill! (No +3 bonus, but on the other hand, no stupid cross-class restrictions either. Definitely a win for Pathfinder. Except for the way everybody and their dog has Use Magic Device.)


And it's nice not having to keep track of when you got your INT increase when rolling up characters, or worrying about taking the class with the most skill points at first level to get that 4x skill points.
True, the lack of verisimilitude bothers me, but the reduction of bookkeeping is awfully nice.