Worst CR 12-16 creature to fight in an anti-magic field?

[Boci]

Pretty much what it says on the tin, just an idle curiosity. Creature can be from any source, even homebrew. Do note that by anti-magic field I mean the whole area, so more likely a dead magic zone (but I used anti-magic in the title because that is more widely recognized).

[herrhauptmann]

How about That damn crab?
It's supposed to be what, a CR 9? Though I'd put that in 'worst monster to fight' with or without an AMF.
Also: Dragons (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0627.html).

[Gnaeus]

Most Dragons are actually not that tough in an AMF, unless they are flying and PCs can't fight them at range. Any dragon at that cr range is a 3-9th level caster, with a lot of wealth, which can take the form of usable magic items, and many have other SU abilities as well. For most of them, turning them into a flying lizard is not a benefit.

That only worked in OOTS because it was a solo fight between a dragon and a full caster.

[The Glyphstone]

Most Dragons are actually not that tough in an AMF, unless they are flying and PCs can't fight them at range. Any dragon at that cr range is a 3-9th level caster, with a lot of wealth, which can take the form of usable magic items, and many have other SU abilities as well. For most of them, turning them into a flying lizard is not a benefit.

That only worked in OOTS because it was a solo fight between a dragon and a full caster.

Yeah, but you don't want to be the Fighter who has to trade full attacks with a dragon in an AMF either. Really, in a dead-magic zone, dragons are probably towards the top of the 'bad-news' list of enemies to fight.

[Stallion]

Advanced Darktentacles.

[Talakeal]

It takes a pretty optimized fighter to go toe to toe with a dragon sans magic items. Also, with their movement they can, if I recall correctly (it has been a while since I have used this tactic) grapple one PC and fly away with them. There are few PCs who can beat a dragon in a grapple, and there are fewer who can catch a dragon, therefore the dragon is going to be killing the party one at a time.

[Anxe]

Dragons wouldn't be able to fly in an Anti-magic field. I remember the DMG or the MM saying that flight speeds over 100ft are always magically created. Would it be able to breath fire either?

[Zaydos]

It takes a pretty optimized fighter to go toe to toe with a dragon sans magic items. Also, with their movement they can, if I recall correctly (it has been a while since I have used this tactic) grapple one PC and fly away with them. There are few PCs who can beat a dragon in a grapple, and there are fewer who can catch a dragon, therefore the dragon is going to be killing the party one at a time.

This; I was just showing my little brother how a dragon could do this (despite having had dragons do it to his party before).

[The Glyphstone]

Dragons wouldn't be able to fly in an Anti-magic field. I remember the DMG or the MM saying that flight speeds over 100ft are always magically created. Would it be able to breath fire either?

Neither of those books lists this under the Flight ability. It wouldn't be able to breath fire, because Breath Weapon is a (Su), but Flight for Dragons is Natural.

[Killer Angel]

Either an iron golem isn't a cakewalk...

[BadJuJu]

I can speak from experience that dragons will rape your face in an AMF. It aint even pretty. Is their DR extraordinary or super natural?

[Talakeal]

Isn't DR magic always supernatural?

[The Glyphstone]

I think it was clarified in Rules Compendium that DR/Magic goes away in an AMF.

[Yora]

How about That damn crab?

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040221a
It's CR 3.

[pasko77]

I would say anything etheral.

[Runestar]

Something with grapple, like a colossal scorpion. :smalleek:

[Cartigan]

Something with grapple, like a colossal scorpion. :smalleek:

Anything the size of a small supertanker is basically the worst thing to fight in a AMF.

[Anxe]

Neither of those books lists this under the Flight ability. It wouldn't be able to breath fire, because Breath Weapon is a (Su), but Flight for Dragons is Natural.

I must've remembered the description of the Flight ability instead of the Fly ability. Although why those are different abilities is a little strange. I suppose they can fly in anti-magic by RAW.

[Gnaeus]

I did say that if the dragon could use its flight to its advantage, and the party couldn't match it, the dragon would likely win. That is by no means assured, though. If this dead magic zone is underground, maybe in the dragon's cave, carry off one party member at a time may not be a valid strategy. Also, the dragon's maneuverability is awful, and if it has to drop and ascend many fliers could outfly it.

But really, for a CR appropriate party, I don't see anything particularly scary about most dragons. 180-260 hp. AC of 27-32 is no problem for a combat character. A charging paladin with a flying mount could 1 shot it. So could an ubercharger if he can reach it. A couple of good archers could drop one. A flask thrower of that level who won initiative on round 1 could cripple it (Darkstalker gets you close to it). Even their strength/grapple checks, while impressive, are not out of reach of many dedicated trippers or grapplers (Base strength of 24 for +7, large +4 (half ogre perhaps), Imp Trip +4, +2-+3 for rage actually gives a tripping advantage over most dragons in this range, and once it is on the ground and on its back it is toast. Grapple is harder, but not impossible).

[cylch]

I know it's not in the CR 12 range but looking at it i think a hellwasp swarm would be a major pain if not impossible to fight in an anti magic field.

for reference hellwasp swarm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/swarm.htm#hellwaspSwarm)

[Dr.Epic]

How about That damn crab?

CRAB BATTLE!

[ken-do-nim]

I know it's not in the CR 12 range but looking at it i think a hellwasp swarm would be a major pain if not impossible to fight in an anti magic field.

for reference hellwasp swarm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/swarm.htm#hellwaspSwarm)

My favorite WOTC monster in the game!

[The Glyphstone]

I know it's not in the CR 12 range but looking at it i think a hellwasp swarm would be a major pain if not impossible to fight in an anti magic field.

for reference hellwasp swarm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/swarm.htm#hellwaspSwarm)


Hope you brought a huge pile of acid flasks - like, a couple hundred of them.


But really, for a CR appropriate party, I don't see anything particularly scary about most dragons. 180-260 hp. AC of 27-32 is no problem for a combat character. A charging paladin with a flying mount could 1 shot it. So could an ubercharger if he can reach it. A couple of good archers could drop one. A flask thrower of that level who won initiative on round 1 could cripple it (Darkstalker gets you close to it). Even their strength/grapple checks, while impressive, are not out of reach of many dedicated trippers or grapplers (Base strength of 24 for +7, large +4 (half ogre perhaps), Imp Trip +4, +2-+3 for rage actually gives a tripping advantage over most dragons in this range, and once it is on the ground and on its back it is toast. Grapple is harder, but not impossible).

You're assuming average or above-average optimization here though. Charger builds are the best way to maximize your odds of killing it, to be true - but a dragon has a far superior fly speed to pretty much any other creature in the game, and maxed ranks in Spot for its Hit Dice. Even if you win initiative, it's probably the one charging you, unless you've caught it underground/indoors.

[awa]

i would take the hellwasp and raise you a half fiend hell wasp swarm now they are resistant to cold electricity and acid in addition to the fire resistance they already had plus now they are even smarter but then they are still only cr 11 not high enough so lets throw on the half dragon template and pick oh why not emerald that gives you immunity to sonic.

(i dont know if their is an item that cause sonic damage but if there is now it wont work)

[Eldariel]

Choker Warblades are pretty nasty. Double actions tend to be fairly good in dead magic. Tho yeah, Dragons are fairly nice too. And baby Tarrasques; though all that is eminently chargeable of course. Or Hurlable. Actually, some Dusk Giant Hulking Hurler would prolly be the most annoying thing to face; getting ~10^10d6 to the face is somewhat painful and Dusk Giants can Cannibalize as an Ex-ability to graowwwww.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Choker Warblades are pretty nasty. Double actions tend to be fairly good in dead magic. Tho yeah, Dragons are fairly nice too. And baby Tarrasques; though all that is eminently chargeable of course. Or Hurlable. Actually, some Dusk Giant Hulking Hurler would prolly be the most annoying thing to face; getting ~10^10d6 to the face is somewhat painful and Dusk Giants can Cannibalize as an Ex-ability to graowwwww.

According to the SRD the choker's quickness is a (SU) ability.

[Claudius Maximus]

According to my Monster Manual it doesn't exist.

[The Glyphstone]

According to my Monster Manual it doesn't exist.

You may have a defective MM...

[Fox Box Socks]

Swarms of anything are just beyond annoying in an anti-magic field. Especially swarms of things with a fly speed, as that kind of puts a damper on any improvised molotov cocktails the party might cook up.

Really though, fly speed + reach + anti magic sphere = dead party.

[Vknight]

Why not the greatest villian ever someone who has abilities created by magic but all natural.

Pun-Pun

[Fox Box Socks]

Why not the greatest villian ever someone who has abilities created by magic but all natural.

Pun-Pun
I think we're discounting monsters that are CR: a jillion

[Eldariel]

According to the SRD the choker's quickness is a (SU) ability.

Wut. Either I'm drunk or there's some extra action racial Ex-ability I'm thinking of right now. Former has happened before. Sigh.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Wut. Either I'm drunk or there's some extra action racial Ex-ability I'm thinking of right now. Former has happened before. Sigh.

Don't remember if the Factotums cunning surge (or whatever the ability to burn inspiration points to get Standard actions is called) is an EX ability, but that is the only thing that springs to mind.

[Vknight]

I think we're discounting monsters that are CR: a jillion

Simply get Pyn Pun to raise his stats to appropriate levels. About 50 for each

[herrhauptmann]

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040221a
It's CR 3.
Geh, CR3?? That's even worse!! They seemed bad enough at the higher CR. What's that other creature, adamantine horror? Disjunction at will, with a DC so high only the wizard could pass it with any frequency?


I would say anything etheral. Dusk Giants can Cannibalize as an Ex-ability to graowwwww.[/QUOTE]

Cannibalize? Sorry, don't have my books handy this week.

[tyckspoon]

Cannibalize? Sorry, don't have my books handy this week.

Dusk Giants can eat corpses to gain HD. When they gain enough, they turn into a more powerful Dusk Giant (gain size, get better stats beyond just what they'd get from HD+Size increase.)

[herrhauptmann]

Any corpse, or does it specifically have to be another dusk giant? (The word Cannibalize would imply other dusk giants, but common sense doesn't always apply to our game) I've got a bad mental image of some giant gnawing on a bunch of pixies and puppies, and suddenly gaining a size boost.

[senrath]

Any corpse, I believe. The usual suggestion is to combine a Dusk Giant and a Chicken Coop.

[Jack_Simth]

Something with grapple, like a colossal scorpion. :smalleek:

Let's see... a Colossal Scorpion is CR 12. Half-Dragon is CR+2, and gives it fly 100 Average (now CR 14). Fiendish is CR+2 at that hit number of hit dice (now CR 16) and gives it feats to go with it's 40 hit dice - like, say, Hover (so it can stop 30 feet up in the air above you), Flyby Attack (so it can hit you and move on), Improved Flyby Attack (so you don't even get an AoO if you *could* reach), Improved Natural Armor (so it's harder to hit with arrows), and it even qualifies for Epic feats, having 40 hit dice - like, say Great Constitution enough to qualify for Fast Healing, so you can't even slow grind it.

[Vknight]

Yup any corpse. I believe the corpses have to be 2catergories smaller though at minimum

[Gnaeus]

You're assuming average or above-average optimization here though. Charger builds are the best way to maximize your odds of killing it, to be true - but a dragon has a far superior fly speed to pretty much any other creature in the game, and maxed ranks in Spot for its Hit Dice. Even if you win initiative, it's probably the one charging you, unless you've caught it underground/indoors.

Why would I assume below average optimization? It is true, Mr. Sword & Board is almost as useless here as in every other fight. I assume that muggles are built to do one of the things that muggles can do with some effectiveness, Charging, Sneak Attack, Archery, or trip-grapple. I don't think that that is a crazy assumption. Even the flask thrower isn't actually taking much of anything that a normal twf/thrown rogue wouldn't take (of course, if I built him, he would ba a Marrulurk, but anyway), he just bought 10 flasks of acid or alchemists fire out of the PHB.

Edit: If I were assuming above average optimization, the Dead Magic Zone would be a benefit for the party while the Cheater of Mystra soloed the dragon while laughing his head off.

If it charges you, so what? I don't see pounce on that sheet, so its charge is for something like 20 damage (2d8 for a huge, + varying for strength). Even the mage can take that. Then it gets to trade full attacks with a 4 member party.

[Saph]

As mentioned, dragons are probably the worst - they're dangerous at the best of times even with magic. Without magic, most parties not specifically built for it are going to get shredded, assuming the dragon uses any tactics at all.

Apart from that, it depends a lot on environment. Pretty much any big melee monster is lethal in an AMF if you can't withdraw, but they become a lot more survivable if you have enough space to back off.

[Gullintanni]

Edit: If I were assuming above average optimization, the Dead Magic Zone would be a benefit for the party while the Cheater of Mystra soloed the dragon while laughing his head off.

If it charges you, so what? I don't see pounce on that sheet, so its charge is for something like 20 damage (2d8 for a huge, + varying for strength). Even the mage can take that. Then it gets to trade full attacks with a 4 member party.

The cheater of mystra does not represent practical optimization. It represents cheddar. This is not going to fly at most tables, and given that the OP's question probably pertains to the average party at the average table, the Cheater is really not an option. If Batman is allowed, then the question loses meaning anyway. Nothing's scary to fight in or out of an AMF regardless of CR.

Now...regular party vs. dragon? CR 15 Red Dragon has a frightful presence DC of 24. Given that melee characters tend to stack magical protections to defend their will saves, and given that the fight is taking place in an AMF, the melee in this fight is probably going to fail this save. Especially if they PrC'd into a melee class that also got poor will saves.

That means its Dragon + Full Attacks vs. Cleric and Wizard, in the archetypal Rogue/Fighter/Cleric/Wizard party. The problem is, none of the clerics melee tricks work, as they're all magic dependent. So this becomes a case of Dragon vs. the party's two most vulnerable melee characters. Grappling and flying yield further advantage to the Dragon.

It's definitely possible to build a party or character so specialized that defeating a Dragon in an AMF isn't an issue, but for the average party, Dragon + AMF = Nightmare Food.

[Gnaeus]

That means its Dragon + Full Attacks vs. Cleric and Wizard, in the archetypal Rogue/Fighter/Cleric/Wizard party. The problem is, none of the clerics melee tricks work, as they're all magic dependent. So this becomes a case of Dragon vs. the party's two most vulnerable melee characters. Grappling and flying yield further advantage to the Dragon.



"Frightful Presence (Ex)

A young adult or older dragon can unsettle foes with its mere presence. The ability takes effect automatically whenever the dragon attacks, charges, or flies overhead. Creatures within a radius of 30 feet × the dragon’s age category are subject to the effect if they have fewer HD than the dragon. A potentially affected creature that succeeds on a Will save (DC 10 + ½ dragon’s HD + dragon’s Cha modifier) remains immune to that dragon’s frightful presence for 24 hours. On a failure, creatures with 4 or less HD become panicked for 4d6 rounds and those with 5 or more HD become shaken for 4d6 rounds."

Your melee have less than 4 HD? Because Shaken for 4d6 rounds isn't going to stop anyone.



It's definitely possible to build a party or character so specialized that defeating a Dragon in an AMF isn't an issue, but for the average party, Dragon + AMF = Nightmare Food.

*shrugs* I play in a tier 3 party. We aren't specialized in dragon fighting, or amfs. I have utmost confidence that our chain tripper and swift hunter could own a cr equivalent dragon, assuming that it had no spells or breath weapon (And my chameleon wouldn't be useless either, although I would need to roll very high to hit most of the level equivalent dragons). A colossal Monstrous Scorpion? Not so much.

Outside the dead magic zone, if the dragon had normal buffs (Mage armor, shield, Scintellating Scales, spells or items for NA or deflection +) and some long range spells or items to duplicate long range spells (like a staff of fire), we would be in much worse shape. We could only catch it via teleport, and then it would just fly away (phantom steeds would die in the first fireball, Polymorphing the tripper into a flying form would make him vulnerable to dispell, and best case he would have to solo the dragon.) The dragon's regular AC would be unhittable (Minimum 35, probably over 40, so the archer would be useless). Its touch AC would be almost as high (so no guarantee of hitting it for a trip). Anything we could summon would just be blasted by its breath. Without the Dead Magic Zone, all of our best options would involve hiding (Rope Trick, or burrowing) and hoping that it closes with us or goes away. I like our odds much better in the zone.

[Gullintanni]

"Frightful Presence (Ex)

A young adult or older dragon can unsettle foes with its mere presence. The ability takes effect automatically whenever the dragon attacks, charges, or flies overhead. Creatures within a radius of 30 feet × the dragon’s age category are subject to the effect if they have fewer HD than the dragon. A potentially affected creature that succeeds on a Will save (DC 10 + ½ dragon’s HD + dragon’s Cha modifier) remains immune to that dragon’s frightful presence for 24 hours. On a failure, creatures with 4 or less HD become panicked for 4d6 rounds and those with 5 or more HD become shaken for 4d6 rounds."

Your melee have less than 4 HD? Because Shaken for 4d6 rounds isn't going to stop anyone.


My bad. I didn't really read through Frightful Presence. I just assumed it was something that mattered. Given the above, then fighting a Dragon in an AMF still sucks given its tactical options, but not nearly as much. Point granted.

[Ernir]

A Zodar in a dead magic zone is going to kill you if you didn't bring a club. Or it will chase you until you die of old age. CR 16.

EDIT: I guess War Trolls would be damned hard to deal with as well.