teaching A narrow minded player [3.5]

[slaydemons]

as the title says he is really narrow minded when it comes to being a wizard. I don't want him to feel like an idiot we are only like second level but he refuses to see that spells have more uses then just making things go boom and I aslo wish for him to be rather independant while he levels up.

basically he is always asking me (though I haven't really played a wizard) whats the best attacking spell, I really want him to see there is more to being a wizard then damage, we have only been dungeon delving so far to get used to the rolling when to and stuff. what would be the best way to show him?

[Draconi Redfir]

Dont there is much we can do without knowing just what spells he knows. if he only picked damage-dealing spells there might not be a way to help.

[Gullintanni]

Have your NPC wizards use non-blasty spells against him. Grease and Glitterdust, for example. If he's not suitably impressed with the spells to consider using them...let him play blasty. He clearly doesn't care about optimization.

[slaydemons]

thought I should mention I am a player in this as well He doesn't read so he pretty much just asks me everytime "is there a way to do more damage is he weak to any of my spells." now I am pretty sure monsters are not pokemon with weaknesses or at least not all of them

[Gullintanni]

IMO most creatures are weakest to melee damage. A flat-footed creature fighting a TWF Rogue/Swashbuckler with Daring Outlaw will take more damage from the Rogue than from almost any blasting Wizard.

The best use of wizard spells is, therefore, to make creatures flat-footed...or put them in flanking. Grease, Summon Monster I etc. A Wizard's greatest strength is creating weaknesses for the rest of the party to exploit IMHO.

Otherwise, if you have the option, pick up a few scrolls and demonstrate how sub par wizard blasting is by casting the Grease spells or Summon Monsters that he won't.

Alternately, google Mailman Sorcerer. There should be handbook for it somewhere. Some of this may be relevant if the player in question is dead set on damage casting.

[Arbane]

Have your NPC wizards use non-blasty spells against him. Grease and Glitterdust, for example. If he's not suitably impressed with the spells to consider using them...let him play blasty. He clearly doesn't care about optimization.

And after the PCs beat them, let him grab their spellbooks.

If that doesn't help, just let him have fun as a Blastomancer.

(Oh, you're not the DM, so this isn't really helpful. You using scrolls is probably the best choice, then.)

[Dr.Epic]

as the title says he is really narrow minded when it comes to being a wizard. I don't want him to feel like an idiot we are only like second level but he refuses to see that spells have more uses then just making things go boom and I aslo wish for him to be rather independant while he levels up.

Wait, wizards have spells other than making things go boom?

Talk him into playing a session where he only casts transmutation or illusion spells.

[slaydemons]

I don't mind him play a blaster wizard but he is playing it out of ignorance thinking that lightning bolt is they key to the world he doesn't even look at spells that have no damage rolls and there alot of spells above first level that don't do damage on the mini spell list.

[Dr.Epic]

I don't mind him play a blaster wizard but he is playing it out of ignorance thinking that lightning bolt is they key to the world he doesn't even look at spells that have no damage rolls and there alot of spells above first level that don't do damage on the mini spell list.

Yeap. A lot of the divination spells are really good. Conjuration and summoning spells too.

[Tvtyrant]

I don't mind him play a blaster wizard but he is playing it out of ignorance thinking that lightning bolt is they key to the world he doesn't even look at spells that have no damage rolls and there alot of spells above first level that don't do damage on the mini spell list.

Not much you can do then mate; I would suggest explaining to him that a melee character will do more damage than him and that casters shine at battlefield control. Unless the party is really optimized it doesn't matter that much though.

[McSmack]

Personally I just let him play what he wants. Judging from what you've said I think he'd probably be happier playing a sorcerer. If dealing massive amounts of damage is what floats his boat then let him do it.

Or you can try to explain to him that blowing stuff up is fun, but it can also be fun to strip away an enemies ability to do damage or to defend itself.
It's like in Predator. Arnold didn't beat the Predator by having the biggest gun, he beat the Predator by removing its advantages. Remove their defenses or take away their weapons, and then when they are powerless THAT's when you blast them in the face. It's way more satisfying.

Remember kids, it's not just about crushing your enemies. It's also about seeing them driven before you and hearing the lamination of their women.

[Cartigan]

IMO most creatures are weakest to melee damage. A flat-footed creature fighting a TWF Rogue/Swashbuckler with Daring Outlaw will take more damage from the Rogue than from almost any blasting Wizard.
That's a unique condition and does NOT propagate to other melee classes, despite your implication. Of COURSE a Rogue is going to kill a flat-footed creature to death, you know what he won't do? Scratch golems, undead, or anything else immune or not currently granting the ability to sneak attack them.

[randomhero00]

Best way (I had the exact same problem) was to play a wizard myself, almost all control and utility and buffs. Everyone suddenly went, holy cow, no offense _____ but _____ plays way better as a wizard.

[Tvtyrant]

That's a unique condition and does NOT propagate to other melee classes, despite your implication. Of COURSE a Rogue is going to kill a flat-footed creature to death, you know what he won't do? Scratch golems, undead, or anything else immune or not currently granting the ability to sneak attack them.

I think you missed the point mate; it takes exactly one spell to accomplish flat footed against 90% of creatures (Grease), which means that in most fights you can spend 1 turn to make your ally do their maximum amount of damage. You can do the same for all of your other allies in a case by case basis (enlarge the fighter/Barbarian, Haste the party, Entangle or Exhaust the enemy, summon flanking partners for your group, etc). Basically casters get the most bang for their buck by buffing, debuffing or controlling, not by attacking.

[hoff]

Step 1: Buy some utility spells scrolls
Step 2: Buy a blank spellbook
Step 3: steal and destroy or hide his spellbook while in the middle of nowhere
Step 4: Find some excuse to pass a few days so he can learn the spells

You can do it all as a player :belkar:

Also when you face some monster with a spell-like ability (Darkness for instance) explain to him how he could do exactly the same thing with his own spells.

[Cartigan]

I think you missed the point mate; it takes exactly one spell to accomplish flat footed against 90% of creatures (Grease), which means that in most fights you can spend 1 turn to make your ally do their maximum amount of damage. You can do the same for all of your other allies in a case by case basis (enlarge the fighter/Barbarian, Haste the party, Entangle or Exhaust the enemy, summon flanking partners for your group, etc). Basically casters get the most bang for their buck by buffing, debuffing or controlling, not by attacking.
Sure, casters can live vicariously, but some times people want to blow things up. Let people play how they want to play.


Step 1: Buy some utility spells scrolls
Step 2: Buy a blank spellbook
Step 3: steal and destroy or hide his spellbook while in the middle of nowhere
Step 4: Find some excuse to pass a few days so he can learn the spells

You can do it all as a player :belkar:
So what shall you do when all the spells he learns involve killing you?

[hoff]

So what shall you do when all the spells he learns involve killing you?

I never say to let him find out what you did :cool:

[Cartigan]

I never say to let him find out what you did :cool:

A few divination spells and necromancy spells ought to take care of Rogues who think they are smart.

[valadil]

Let him blast. Some players just want to see monsters fall down, go boom. He's made it clear that he isn't interested in how the system works, so don't force it on him.

If he asks for the best spells, tell him. It's up to him to take your advice or ignore it and you aren't responsible for making him take haste instead of fireball.

[hoff]

A few divination spells and necromancy spells ought to take care of Rogues who think they are smart.

If he does that he learned something didn't he?

[slaydemons]

Let him blast. Some players just want to see monsters fall down, go boom. He's made it clear that he isn't interested in how the system works, so don't force it on him.

If he asks for the best spells, tell him. It's up to him to take your advice or ignore it and you aren't responsible for making him take haste instead of fireball.

yeah but I never played a arcane caster before well not one like the sorc or wizard so I shouldn't know the best spells right?

[Cartigan]

If he does that he learned something didn't he?

That all the other players are jerk-ass neck-beards out to get him? Good job breaking it, hero.

[Tvtyrant]

Though you could help him out in making a good mailman caster; if you help him getting the energy substitution feat and the feat Born of the Three Thunders to let him turn his fire spells into lightning and Sonic which stuns enemies. None of those raise the level of slot used. Add in Explosive Spell and you get knock back electricity/sonic attacks that stun. Those are all from complete arcane.

[slaydemons]

That all the other players are jerk-ass neck-beards out to get him? Good job breaking it, hero.

please stop fighting you pointed out your opinion and he did his, other then that, I don't mind letting player a blaster but he is playing because he doesn't think wizards should be anything else.

[Cyrion]

Your best bet will be to help him to the best of your ability and encourage him to read the spell descriptions on his own so that he can pick his own "best" spells. At some point, the DM will use a wizard with a different orientation, or another player will do one, and that may transform his whole world view. Other than that, I wouldn't worry about it.

[TurtleKing]

If he is going to be a blaster wizard show him the Reserve feats from Complete Mage. Some of them allow him to blow things up at will so long as he holds the spell needed in reserve. So if he has a 2nd level fire spell or higher using Fiery Burst reserve feat he can do 1d6 fire damage/ highest fire spell in a 5' radius within 30 ft. So if he has Fireball then he does 3d6, and when he gets Delayed Blast Fireball he now does 7d6 so long as he does not cast the spell. Witrh Wizards they will first have to prepare the fire spell for it to work that day, while Sorcerer can just use it while that haven't cast their spell that lets them use it at that power level. The Reserve feats also have a secondary effect that provides an increase to some part of the spell.

[Lord.Sorasen]

thought I should mention I am a player in this as well He doesn't read so he pretty much just asks me everytime "is there a way to do more damage is he weak to any of my spells." now I am pretty sure monsters are not pokemon with weaknesses or at least not all of them

Honestly, I would suggest just rolling with it. Some of the members of the group I am dming is like this (We have a paladin who uses her spells to blast, even.) The thing is, non-damage spells are better, yes, but they're also harder to use. Damage is really simple. We all know "bigger damage equals better damage spell". If your player here doesn't read the book, he won't want to look into all the ways to make grease awesome.

In the campaign I'm currently in, we have a beguiler. Compared to the incredibly unoptimized party, her abilities are absolutely awesome. Even this doesn't sway the paladin into using non-blast spells. It's partly about power, but it's just as much about simplicity.

[herrhauptmann]

Step 1: Buy some utility spells scrolls
Step 2: Buy a blank spellbook
Step 3: steal and destroy or hide his spellbook while in the middle of nowhere
Step 4: Find some excuse to pass a few days so he can learn the spells

Introducing interplayer conflict is NOT the way to solve problems. Particularly if the 'problem' is a fact of being "unoptimized," or not playing to the same archetype.
Some want their fighter to be a BSF wielding the BFGS. Others want their fighter to be intelligent.

Personally I just let him play what he wants. Judging from what you've said I think he'd probably be happier playing a sorcerer. If dealing massive amounts of damage is what floats his boat then let him do it.

Pretty much, yeah, let him have fun playing a wizard this way. When he asks for advice on damaging spells, tell him that you don't know, or have him just look at minimum/maximum/average damage to decide on which is best. Some people call it DPS, but I'm against putting WoW/EQ/UO in my D&D.
Though I'd recommend against letting him stock up on spells of only one element.


Remember kids, it's not just about crushing your enemies. It's also about seeing them driven before you and hearing the lamination of their women.
You place the women in between two layers of plastic which are heat sealed together?:amused: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hikLjcwFdD8

[Gullintanni]

I think you missed the point mate; it takes exactly one spell to accomplish flat footed against 90% of creatures (Grease), which means that in most fights you can spend 1 turn to make your ally do their maximum amount of damage. You can do the same for all of your other allies in a case by case basis (enlarge the fighter/Barbarian, Haste the party, Entangle or Exhaust the enemy, summon flanking partners for your group, etc). Basically casters get the most bang for their buck by buffing, debuffing or controlling, not by attacking.

Exactly the point I was making. Thank you for summing it up so nicely.

If the player in question would prefer to stick to blasting, sub par though it may be, despite your attempts to enlighten, then that's okay. Blasters are fun and simple to play, they don't break the balance of the game, and they can be effective from 1-20, even if they're not as useful as the rest of their spellcasting buddies.

Google "Mailman Sorcerer". There's a guide somewhere...it's geared toward Sorcerers but a lot of the tricks will work on a prepared caster just the same. If the player can not be dissuaded from focusing entirely on blasting, then this approach will help your player squeeze the most hot death out of their spells.

[McSmack]

You place the women in between two layers of plastic which are heat sealed together?:amused: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hikLjcwFdD8

My best typo ever.

[HalfDragonCube]

Sounds like they would prefer being a warmage, that has a blasting spell for every occasion.

If you want them to learn about other schools of magic, then I suggest that you should find an illusionist that scares the living daylights out of them with big monsters.

Or a transmuter that polymorphs into big monsters.

Or a conjurer that summons big monsters.

Or a necromancer with a horde of big undead monsters.

[TurtleKing]

Another feat that can help is Piercing Evocation from Complete Mage. It turns the first 10 damage into untyped damage. This is great for creatures that resistances or immunities can still take some damage from your spells.

[Douglas]

Another feat that can help is Piercing Evocation from Complete Mage. It turns the first 10 damage into untyped damage. This is great for creatures that resistances or immunities can still take some damage from your spells.
Actually, it's really almost worthless. It does precisely nothing unless your target has so much resistance that it would otherwise take 10 or less damage, and if that's happening without outright immunities involved beyond very low levels then something screwy is going on. If you are up against an immunity, there are much better ways to deal with it than settling for a measly 10 damage.

[Leon]

Don't!
Let him play what he likes - his play style may change over time but don't force him out of what he is happy with - If anything just make sure his selection of damage spells is varied to cover differing target situations (saves, resistances, SR etc) and suggest meta magic that can increase those effects.

While the various "handbooks" offer some useful information take everything they say with a grain of salt.

[fortesama]

Since your friend is so intent on blowing stuff up, how about showing him the Orb of X line and teaching him the fun of metamagic? Might want to be careful with showing him incantatrix though considering your friends mindset, it might not be too bad i hope.

Alternatively, convince him play sorcerer so he could get fun stuff like Arcane Fusion, Arcane Spellsurge and Wings of Flurry?

Or get him to try Warlock or Dragonfire Adept for infinite boom?

[Warlawk]

Count me strongly in the "let him play how he wants" camp.

Now, unless your group is very optimization heavy a blaster wizard is actually better for the group. A true "god" wizard in a group of unoptimized T3 characters is problematic. A nice blaster wizard can still get utility spells in his spellbook and when the story comes to a place where you *need* that spell he can swap it in. That way you preserve general party balance and he gets to play what he wants.

The situation changes entirely of course if your entire group is optimization heavy. If the group is high OP you might want to see about having him rebuild his character as the Mailman Sorcerer (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19868534/The_Mailman:_A_Direct_Damage_Sorcerer). It will let him stay with the play concept he likes and be much more effective at doing it.

[MeeposFire]

Let the player play a blaster wizard. It is a fun and valid play style that unfortunately has a (relatively) bad reputation. It is a great thing to play especially if you are not in a high optimization group and it makes your job easier since you only need to worry about damage and not the seemingly infinite ways other types of wizards can screw your encounter over. This player will have lesser chance to overshadow other characters and you will have an easier way to tweak the effectiveness of the character. Too powerful send monsters that resist his favorite attacks. Too weak and you send things vulnerable to his powers. If the player is having fun, the other players are having fun, and you are having fun except for having a worry about another player's power potential then I would let it be and just let go of your worry about power potential.

You could help the player find particularly good options for blasting that would be fine.

[slaydemons]

Yes as I said I don't mind him playing said wizard but he also doesn't read so, until I told him for the 5th or so time he didn't get that spells don't get casts as soon as you say "I cast (random spell)." and I wish for him to know that direct damage spells are not the only way to play and he will probably misinterprete some spells, as he has already misread disrupt undead.
Though again if he wants to cast fireball I won't mind but he also doesn't want to take magic missle because he thinks he will be just like every other wizard.

[herrhauptmann]

What do you mean "He doesn't read."??
Doesn't read the rulebooks, or is actually unable to read? How old is this player?

If he's creatively interpreting his spells, make sure the DM knows the spells, so that you're not the one going "Nuh-uh! That's not how it works!"

[slaydemons]

What do you mean "He doesn't read."??
Doesn't read the rulebooks, or is actually unable to read? How old is this player?

If he's creatively interpreting his spells, make sure the DM knows the spells, so that you're not the one going "Nuh-uh! That's not how it works!"

no I mean he tried to cast disrupt undead on a living azer I almost slapped him, he doesn't want to read he thinks I should just tell him exactly how to play like I am a know it all instruction manual. so I want to show him not only there is more then just attack spells but using spells means you need to know how they work, without being a liar.

[Tyndmyr]

as the title says he is really narrow minded when it comes to being a wizard. I don't want him to feel like an idiot we are only like second level but he refuses to see that spells have more uses then just making things go boom and I aslo wish for him to be rather independant while he levels up.

basically he is always asking me (though I haven't really played a wizard) whats the best attacking spell, I really want him to see there is more to being a wizard then damage, we have only been dungeon delving so far to get used to the rolling when to and stuff. what would be the best way to show him?

Play a different type of wizard.

That said, there's nothing *wrong* with being blasty. Sure, hp damage isn't always the best way to solve problems...but enough of it will cure most of them.

If DMing, make sure to include a healthy variety of opponents. Blasting is an efficient way to kill some things. Consider the classic beholder, CR 13, a mere 93 hp. Any old d6/level damage spell is going to tear up about half of it's hp. With the most minor optimization, such as adding a quickened spell, you can take care of all or almost all of it's hp in a single round. Certainly a decently built party can own it in a round.

However, there are also things for which blasting is a terrible idea. Golems are among the most obvious of these. If he sticks with one damage type, anything resistant or immune to that type results in a bad day for him.

You really don't *have* to do anything special to emphasize the value of a prepared wizard. It just sort of comes up. As long as blasting keeps working, he isn't likely to bother with anything else. Once it stops working entirely though...he'll either adapt or die.

Edit: Also...if he's not even reading the spells he does have...work on that. Use spell cards if necessary. Don't bother with optimization until he understands what he's doing now. Better a decentish blaster than a completely clueless batman who has no idea what his spells do, and has to constantly look things up.

[Urpriest]

no I mean he tried to cast disrupt undead on a living azer I almost slapped him, he doesn't want to read he thinks I should just tell him exactly how to play like I am a know it all instruction manual. so I want to show him not only there is more then just attack spells but using spells means you need to know how they work, without being a liar.

While there is nothing wrong with playing a blasting wizard, there is something wrong with this. He refuses to read? Then he doesn't want to play the game. Next time he asks you for rules advice, don't give it to him, tell him where to look it up. Next time he gets something wrong, ask him where in the book he read that it worked like that. High school English teaches you to cite sources, this guy should know how by now.

[Leon]

he doesn't want to read he thinks I should just tell him exactly how to play like I am a know it all instruction manual.

If this is the case then tell him that you are not going to baby him any further and that if he wants to know the information he can stop being a lazy git and read it for his self - if he cant do that i don't think he's going to progress very far in anything in life let alone a RPG.

[herrhauptmann]

no I mean he tried to cast disrupt undead on a living azer I almost slapped him, he doesn't want to read he thinks I should just tell him exactly how to play like I am a know it all instruction manual. so I want to show him not only there is more then just attack spells but using spells means you need to know how they work, without being a liar.

Did he know that an 'azer' is a living creature? Of course, if it's been described as 'bleeding profusely' and 'breathing heavily' he should use a little bit of deductive reasoning to realize that it's stupid.

[Fox Box Socks]

My advice? Stop babying him.The next time he casts Disrupt Undead on a living azer, let it resolve. The spell bounces harmlessly off the azer's chest, and the azer cuts him in half with a greatsword.

Although I get the feeling that he might be 14, and if this is the case, then the problem mostly stems from him being 14.

[slaydemons]

My advice? Stop babying him.The next time he casts Disrupt Undead on a living azer, let it resolve. The spell bounces harmlessly off the azer's chest, and the azer cuts him in half with a greatsword.

Although I get the feeling that he might be 14, and if this is the case, then the problem mostly stems from him being 14.

he is drinking age in the states not the 18 drinking age either, its more of a he says that he has enough to read when does college works so I don't mind him asking for help with the lengthy spells but he just refuses to read (gave him the srd and pdf)

Edit: I don't read as much as him, as I don't go to college, but I think there is a time for reading for school and reading for enjoyment. Also sorry if I left out these details if their important

[MeeposFire]

Not willing to read but wants to blast stuff? Convince him to play a warlock. Needs less knowledge and arcane blasting.

[slaydemons]

Not willing to read but wants to blast stuff? Convince him to play a warlock. Needs less knowledge and arcane blasting.

bro Its a bit messed up but I think I could convince him to play A truenamer If I said it was a good class :smallyuk:
and to tell the truth if he read the book's spells and decided he still wanted to play a blaster wizard I would of been like cool I can see that.

[Kallisti]

If he doesn't want to invest the time in the game to read the rulebooks, then he doesn't want to invest the time in the game to read the rulebooks. If he won't take the time to understand the rules himself and nobody will do it for him, chances are he will stop playing. I think you may just have to accept that gaming is not his top priority, and that either you can serve as a 'living instruction manual' or you can game without him.

Of course, I could be completely wrong--maybe he really us invested in the game and really is just too lazy to read the rulebooks. Either way my point is this: if he isn't willing to put in the time and effort, trying to make him is just likely to cause bad feeling. It sounds like you asked him why he hasn't read the rules and he tells you he's too busy with college/has too little free time he's willing to invest?

I suppose you have a few options.

1. Keep helping him with the rules. Works out fine for him, but it sounds like you're getting exasperated. Could you talk other players into helping out as well?

2. Find a way for him to play without needing to know much in the way of rules. Warlock is a good suggestion, as are spell cards.

3. Stop gaming with him. It sounds like the problem might be his level of interest in the game, and really the only good way to solve that problem is for the game to be awesome enough to draw him in. If that works you can start to wean him off rules-help from other players.

[MeeposFire]

Or Dragon fire adept. Nothing says boom than unleashing the breath of tiamat! Does not even have to worry about attack rolls.

[slaydemons]

I don't what exasperated but I assume it means exhausted or tired of dong so, in truth I am because I wrote all the new guys character sheets with slight help from them, so to probably rid myself of this I want them to write their next character sheets. as their all more newbies then me I didn't mind helping them for their first sheet,but I think you guys are right next time their going cold turkey and I will help the current dm,switch places with him, and help him think up his class think up some characters (he has been eyeing a particular robot like race but I doubt he would mind playing the sneaky rogue)

[Lord.Sorasen]

While there is nothing wrong with playing a blasting wizard, there is something wrong with this. He refuses to read? Then he doesn't want to play the game. Next time he asks you for rules advice, don't give it to him, tell him where to look it up. Next time he gets something wrong, ask him where in the book he read that it worked like that. High school English teaches you to cite sources, this guy should know how by now.

I'm sorry, I'm going to have to strongly disagree.

Right now one of the players in my group, we'll call her the paladin, because I have trouble spelling her player name (It's pronounced Yor-Men-Hild, and is apparently an actual medieval name, but yeah). Well, the paladin does not read much of the rulebook. She's learned absolutely the basics of them, sure, but she invests no more time than that. She's constantly forgetting the rules, she thought turn undead meant becoming a zombie, and as I stated earlier her prepared paladin spells are both lantern light (BoED, don't have sex but you can shoot some lights at things for 1d6). Obviously, she pretty much doesn't read much about the game.

On the other hand, I find her to be one of the best players in the group. And I don't mean this as an offense to the rest of the group: She roleplays well and realistically (as a paladin, no less) and it's awesome. Is it frustrating that she doesn't read more about her abilities? Sometimes. But it's more than worth it, and it in no way means she doesn't care about the game. To put it simply, she's not a huge fan of the crunch of the game. Which means she's ok being weaker so long as she's still having fun. What's more, she knows crunch is a big deal, so she asks me to deal with the majority of it for her. Honestly, it's not a big deal.

Now, on the original question, I must ask: How do you know this guy? The group I play D&D with were my friends before D&D (with the exception of 2 actually, and given our group has 7 people that's not so much). We spend a lot of time together outside of D&D, and for the most part they're my closest friends. So for me, D&D is as much spending time with friends than it is about the actual game; because of this, I couldn't kick anyone out of a group, or even really be forceful outside of the rules. At best I can manage a "Come on, Bros". Kicking someone out would be sour and not at all worth the smoother gameplay.

Consider finding some spells that are effective enough and writing them down for him. Even if he doesn't read, he can read a couple sheets of paper as he needs them.

I should be saying this first. If you really want him to use damage spells, explain the spells in terms of damage. Grease doesn't "make an enemy flat footed", it "allows the rogue to deal 4d6 sneak attack." Expansion "makes your weapon deal more damage". "Death" also works well to define how a power works. "Allows you to coup de gras an enemy" just sounds great. He sees in damage, so you have to give him stuff in terms of damage. If that doesn't work, whatever.


I don't what exasperated but I assume it means exhausted or tired of dong so, in truth I am because I wrote all the new guys character sheets with slight help from them, so to probably rid myself of this I want them to write their next character sheets. as their all more newbies then me I didn't mind helping them for their first sheet,but I think you guys are right next time their going cold turkey and I will help the current dm,switch places with him, and help him think up his class think up some characters (he has been eyeing a particular robot like race but I doubt he would mind playing the sneaky rogue)

With everything I said, now I have to contradict myself: don't make their character sheets for them. Unless it's spell info, don't write anything down for them. Or they won't know what it means. Hell, you can even tell them what to put down. If they write it themselves, then they'll start to figure it out.

There are some great character sheets, non-official... I can't remember who made them (individual, free) but the sample in the beginning had a gnome druid with a warpony animal companion... Point is the sheet has a different sheet for every class, and it's great for sort of showing how to calculate things.

[slaydemons]

lord you may have a pointand I am just talking about this guy cause I don't want to think about dealing with the least intelligent person(aka ranger). and to answer the next questions we were friends before D&D and I see it as a way to have good fun with my friends he sees it as an activity we can all do together.

Do not get me started on our ranger... seriously I want to be able to sleep without crying myself to it :D

[Lord.Sorasen]

lord you may have a pointand I am just talking about this guy cause I don't want to think about dealing with the least intelligent person(aka ranger). and to answer the next questions we were friends before D&D and I see it as a way to have good fun with my friends he sees it as an activity we can all do together.

Do not get me started on our ranger... seriously I want to be able to sleep without crying myself to it :D

My group has single class cleric who has fired her crossbow for every round of combat she has ever been in. She has been in enough fights to be level 3 from 0 exp.

I totally get your pain here.

Yeah, just give him some ideas in terms of damage. don't do everything for him, but get him interested enough to do some info for himself. If he doesn't have time to invest and thinks of it more as a thing to do than a game in itself, then there's little you can do, and arguably little you should do.

[Engine]

Right now one of the players in my group, we'll call her the paladin, because I have trouble spelling her player name (It's pronounced Yor-Men-Hild, and is apparently an actual medieval name, but yeah). Well, the paladin does not read much of the rulebook. She's learned absolutely the basics of them, sure, but she invests no more time than that. She's constantly forgetting the rules, she thought turn undead meant becoming a zombie, and as I stated earlier her prepared paladin spells are both lantern light (BoED, don't have sex but you can shoot some lights at things for 1d6). Obviously, she pretty much doesn't read much about the game. On the other hand, I find her to be one of the best players in the group. And I don't mean this as an offense to the rest of the group: She roleplays well and realistically (as a paladin, no less) and it's awesome. Is it frustrating that she doesn't read more about her abilities? Sometimes. But it's more than worth it, and it in no way means she doesn't care about the game. To put it simply, she's not a huge fan of the crunch of the game. Which means she's ok being weaker so long as she's still having fun. What's more, she knows crunch is a big deal, so she asks me to deal with the majority of it for her. Honestly, it's not a big deal.

And I have to disagree with you, sorry.
For me, it's a big deal. While I'm not above to give some tips and advices and answer to questions about rules I expect my players to be for the most part autonomous about their characters. I'm not saying they should be heavy optimizers and know every spell in the game in great detail but at least know the basics: the classes descriptions are not that long, so a player could read one in five minutes tops. For me it's a form of respect, because as a DM I had to read all of them, to read all the spell lists and know the rules so the players could have fun. As a player, you could at least read your class description.

The same for roleplaying: while I'm not expecting the players to be all great roleplayers I pretend to have their characters' backgrounds and stay IC while we're playing. So: I don't ask much, but I ask something. Roleplaying and crunch are all part of the game, and I ask the players to know them.

[Callista]

Suggest you give him an array of utility spells on scrolls, which he can use to solve various problems you'll scatter throughout the dungeon. Just give him a good set of them, especially the low-level ones, and put in an array of random challenges. You needn't actually plan which spells he's going to use to solve the problems; he wouldn't go according to your plan anyhow :)

[Tyndmyr]

Not willing to read but wants to blast stuff? Convince him to play a warlock. Needs less knowledge and arcane blasting.

Yeah. Tell him unlimited blasting.

That or warmage. The limited number of spells in warmage makes it a very newbie friendly class. It introduces you to casting without dumping decisions about every spell in the game on you.

As for reading the rules...yes, it would be wonderful if everyone did that. I really wish people did. That said, people are lazy. Lots of people won't do something if they can get other people to do it for them/get along without it. So, after a nasty situation comes along that you escape, but they die from...THEN they may care about fixing that. They'll probably still ask you to do it for them first, though. Sometimes you just have to say no.

I've got a friend that keeps complaining about us not giving him the prereqs for some prestige class. Every gaming session, the DM and I tell him to go look up his own information. He still hasn't. He probably won't until we're all entering prestige classes and he realizes that he doesn't qualify. Sucks to be him.