Beholder Mage

[Zombimode]

For quite some time I've heard stories on about how incredible broken they are and stuff.
Finaly I got my copy of Lords of Madness and actualy read its entry.

Yeah. Level 9 and Clvl = Class level * 2 is very powerfull, like in "the most powerfull class ever printed".
But it seems to be a non-issue to me. This class is obviuosly meant for Beholders, beeing a True Beholder is required to enter this PrC.

Now, Beholders dont make good PCs, as their ECL would be over 9000.

What do I miss? Are there any tricks to meet the requirements without gimping your character with LA and RHD?

[Tyndmyr]

The standard trick is paying someone to cast PaO on you twice. The second time, it's permanent. Drop a feat to grab the eyestalks, and bam, you're a true beholder with everything you need to be a beholder mage.

Takes about four or five levels to kick off, IIRC.

[ScionoftheVoid]

For quite some time I've heard stories on about how incredible broken they are and stuff.
Finaly I got my copy of Lords of Madness and actualy read its entry.

Yeah. Level 9 and Clvl = Class level * 2 is very powerfull, like in "the most powerfull class ever printed".
But it seems to be a non-issue to me. This class is obviuosly meant for Beholders, beeing a True Beholder is required to enter this PrC.

Now, Beholders dont make good PCs, as their ECL would be over 9000.

What do I miss? Are there any tricks to meet the requirements without gimping your character with LA and RHD?

As above, double PAO with a Savage Species feat is the standard method to qualify. You do seem to not have mentioned the spell of each level as a free action every turn that I've heard as the class' true selling point.

[Aspenor]

Be an Elan, and take the Assume Supernatural Ability (or whatever that is) feat twice (with a flaw). Pay 1200 gp out of the wealth you earn while adventuring at level 2 to get a wizard to cast Polymorph Any Object on you. Assume the Su of the antimagic eye and the eye rays. Based on the PAO table, this transformation is permanent.

Stab your central, antimagic eye out on a fencepost.

Begin taking Beholder Mage levels at level 3.

Disguise yourself as a balloon and have one of your party members tie a string to you.

[Tyndmyr]

Yeah. That's the real win. If you just want rapid spellcasting, Ur-Priest is probably the fastest practical way to 9s, considering you can achieve that at level 14 without anything ridiculous.

[Aspenor]

As above, double PAO with a Savage Species feat is the standard method to qualify. You do seem to not have mentioned the spell of each level as a free action every turn that I've heard as the class' true selling point.

There's that, and also the "learn spells as a wizard" (aka, as many as you want) and "spontaneously cast spells as a sorcerer," meaning you're spontaneously casting any spell in your unlimited repertoire as a free action, and doing up to 9 (or was it 10) in a round.

[Tyndmyr]

I'm pretty sure the whole class was written as a way for DMs to challenge low-epic parties, really.

And they would do that, quite well.

[ScionoftheVoid]

I'm pretty sure the whole class was written as a way for DMs to challenge low-epic parties, really.

And they would do that, quite well.

The designers did tend to discount PCs as monsters, so I'm absolutely certain you're right, considering the class would add ten to a base CR of twelve-ish.

[Qwertystop]

Be an Elan, and take the Assume Supernatural Ability (or whatever that is) feat twice (with a flaw). Pay 1200 gp out of the wealth you earn while adventuring at level 2 to get a wizard to cast Polymorph Any Object on you. Assume the Su of the antimagic eye and the eye rays. Based on the PAO table, this transformation is permanent.

Stab your central, antimagic eye out on a fencepost.

Begin taking Beholder Mage levels at level 3.

Disguise yourself as a balloon and have one of your party members tie a string to you.

Why do you need to stab out your eye?

[hivedragon]

Why do you need to stab out your eye?

it's a prerequisite to joining the BM class

[FMArthur]

The real question is why do people persistently believe that being an Elan gives them any benefit at all for PAOing into a Beholder. As if they think all aberrations were related or something. :smallconfused:

[MeeposFire]

I'm pretty sure the whole class was written as a way for DMs to challenge low-epic parties, really.

And they would do that, quite well.

This is one of the pitfalls that you can run into when stuff made for NPC character or monsters are able to be taken by characters.

[Zombimode]

Ah, Polymorph any Object. Missed the obvious. I feel a bit stupid now :)
But thanks everyone for the clarification.

So basicly the only thing that is missing in Lords of Madness (and Serpent Kingdoms for the Sarukh) is a big sign in neon red above the relevant entries that reads:

THIS IS A DM TOOL, MKAY?

:smallwink:

[FMArthur]

Another way in is to use the Mind Switch power on a Beholder after Astral Seed. The funny part is that this actually wouldn't work if Astral Seed hadn't specifically called it out as working and being very mean as an addendum. You would be doing this as an Erudite using Power Stones, since unlike scrolls you actually must have access to both disciplines in your class to use the power stones.

The benefit is that this is irreversably your body - PAO goes away in antimagic fields and can be dispelled - and you get to keep your Intelligence score (which may be better than a Beholder's 17).

[Ravens_cry]

Well, that's one of the things I like about 3.5. Very few things are DM tools per say. Even the NPC classes are discouraged more then strictly off limits. You can do some ridiculous things, but people also 'game' real life. The only thing I really,really don't like is abusing the rules as rules, rather then as basically ways to play a world with at least the illusion of continuity and ontological inertia; where not all of the forces in play being about or especially concerned with the needs of the PC.

[Aspenor]

The real question is why do people persistently believe that being an Elan gives them any benefit at all for PAOing into a Beholder. As if they think all aberrations were related or something. :smallconfused:

Same kingdom (animal, vegetable, mineral) +5
Same class (mammals, fungi, metals, etc.) +2
Same or lower Intelligence +2

Elans are also aberrations. If this didn't matter, then anybody could use PAO *one* time and it would be permanent. It's actually using a stricter version of the rules to say you need to be an Elan to get it with only one casting.

[FMArthur]

Same kingdom (animal, vegetable, mineral) +5
Same class (mammals, fungi, metals, etc.) +2
Same or lower Intelligence +2

Elans are also aberrations. If this didn't matter, then anybody could use PAO *one* time and it would be permanent. It's actually using a stricter version of the rules to say you need to be an Elan to get it with only one casting.

What? How exactly are Elans the same class as a Beholder? And I'm sorry, but you're really going to need to explain in greater detail why it is more lax to allow this massive stretch than to disallow it. Not allowing it does not somehow grant others who also have very little in common with Beholders the ability to do it in one go if that's what you're saying.

[RelentlessImp]

What? How exactly are Elans the same class as a Beholder? And I'm sorry, but you're really going to need to explain in greater detail why it is more lax to allow this massive stretch than to disallow it. Not allowing it does not somehow grant others who also have very little in common with Beholders the ability to do it in one go if that's what you're saying.

I'm sorry, you're going to have to explain why your houserule takes precedence over the rules as written.

An Elan with 17+ Intelligence qualifies as same kingdom (both are Animal, as they don't qualify as vegetable or mineral), the same class (aberration to aberration, and neither has a normal means of reproduction), and same or lower intelligence (Beholder has 17).

So... explain yourself.

[sreservoir]

Same kingdom (animal, vegetable, mineral) +5
Same class (mammals, fungi, metals, etc.) +2
Same or lower Intelligence +2

Elans are also aberrations. If this didn't matter, then anybody could use PAO *one* time and it would be permanent. It's actually using a stricter version of the rules to say you need to be an Elan to get it with only one casting.

nothing says they're the same class. aberration is a badly-defined term which basically means "don't try to make sense out of this."

[FMArthur]

I'm sorry, you're going to have to explain why your houserule takes precedence over the rules as written.

An Elan with 17+ Intelligence qualifies as same kingdom (both are Animal, as they don't qualify as vegetable or mineral), the same class (aberration to aberration, and neither has a normal means of reproduction), and same or lower intelligence (Beholder has 17).

So... explain yourself.

Explain to me how a creature's "class" according to those examples given corresponds to CREATURE TYPE, which is what you are talking about. Creature type doesn't even have a mention in the spell. It has little to do with it. No means of reproduction? You telling me that an Elan is similar to a Zombie Dragon, or a Pseudonatural Farspawn fish? Elans are altered humans. Beholders are giant floating orbs whose head forms their whole body with ten eyes on long stalks that shoot death rays.

[The Glyphstone]

Note that PaO explicitly includes an etc. category for Class, Kingdom, and Related. Considering abberations are very literally the "Other" category in terms of creature types, it'd be trivial to argue that every single abberation in existence has its own Class and Kingdom, except for the ones that are derivatives/relatives (Ultharids and Illithids, say, or the various Neogi).

[Thurbane]

Beholder Mage as a PC isn't really a problem. In any game where the DM actually allows this to happen, he's going to get curbstomped by Pun Pun, planetoid chucking Hulking Hurlers, d2 Crusaders and other TO nightmares long before he gets any real use out of BM. :smalltongue:

[FMArthur]

Beholder Mage as a PC isn't really a problem. In any game where the DM actually allows this to happen, he's going to get curbstomped by Pun Pun, planetoid chucking Hulking Hurlers, d2 Crusaders and other TO nightmares long before he gets any real use out of BM. :smalltongue:

Or he gets KOed and then absorbed by an Illithid Savant on its way to becoming the BBEG, to give the players a plainer demonstration of their directly increasing the difficulty of the game for themselves. :smallcool:

[Alleran]

Yeah. Level 9 and Clvl = Class level * 2 is very powerfull, like in "the most powerfull class ever printed".
On the bright side, I don't think that the caster level thing can expand. So you can't take levels of, say, Loremaster, or Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil, or Incantatrix, and have them add to your Beholder Mage caster level, because only your BM class levels count towards your CL according to the class description.

Unless the "prestige class advances spellcasting" section in PrCs can override the Beholder Mage section for spellcasting, in which case levels in those classes would also provide double your CL in addition to all the other benefits.

Not that you need any other classes if you're going into Beholder Mage, though. It's horrifying enough on its own.

[VirOath]

Note that PaO explicitly includes an etc. category for Class, Kingdom, and Related. Considering abberations are very literally the "Other" category in terms of creature types, it'd be trivial to argue that every single abberation in existence has its own Class and Kingdom, except for the ones that are derivatives/relatives (Ultharids and Illithids, say, or the various Neogi).

Actually, I'll argue this. Kingdom is a very strict, defined term and there is only three choices for it. Mineral, meaning base components, even Oxygen fits into this, could also be stretched to mean the dead. Vegetable means some form of plant and Animal means some form of living, bleeding thing.

All aberrations are Animals of some form or another when it comes to Kingdom. There is nothing for them to fit under.

In my own book, for the purpose of the rules, all aberrations share the same creature type, so are the same class. Related fall down to the derivatives/relatives that you've mentioned, those directly related to blood.

Because one does need to remember, anything of the Humanoid(X) type is in the same Creature Class, so as far as PaO cares, turning a gnome to an orc hits that same class. And all Magical Beasts share the same Creature Class, and those are just as varied as Elan to Beholder.

Elans aren't Altered Humans. They can go without eating, they don't age, they reproduce by taking those of other races and turning them into Elans. And in doing so, they lose all Racial Traits. Because Elans are mostly humans, but there are Elves and Dwarves that are Elans as well. And you'll need to face it, they might as well be a race of aberrations that implants their young into a host body to take it over, and then take their shape when the host is fully consumed.

Elans only look pretty, they rely on the defense of disguise to protect their ranks from the other races. They are aberrations that look human, they are not Altered Humans. Even for their choice of defense, of imitation, they still take a negative to Cha because of just how different, strange and alien their thoughts and values truly are.

[Endarire]

A doubly flawed Elan can become a Beholder Mage at L2.

Mercantile Background, Assume Supernatural Ability (Central Eye & Eye Rays). Take ASA twice if needed.

Just get that L2 wealth (at least 600G of it) and add it to the 300G you get from Mercantile Background. Pay someone the 900G (1200G * 0.75) and BOOM! You're a Beholder. Ta-da!

[Runestar]

Beholder mages are just gross. A beholder beholder mage10 is cr23 and can cast up to 11 spells each round (9 eyes, +1 epic spell as standard action, +1 swift)! :smalleek:

[FMArthur]

It gets worse when you realize there's enough room in a Beholder Mage build for Druid 5/Planar Shepherd 5... enabling planar bubble action advantage. You probably don't have 110 spells to throw down every round without Tainted Scholar or something, though. A tricky thing to manage because you would have to stay True Beholder to keep advancing as a Beholder Mage and when it's done you have to at least have the eyestalks to use its powers. Or you can try to plant 10 grafted eyestalks on yourself for something like 198,000gp apiece.

[Alleran]

A tricky thing to manage because you would have to stay True Beholder to keep advancing as a Beholder Mage and when it's done you have to at least have the eyestalks to use its powers. Or you can try to plant 10 grafted eyestalks on yourself for something like 198,000gp apiece.
The Assume Supernatural Ability feat grants you all the eyestalks in one hit, and taking it a second time provides the antimagic eye. You just need to be polymorphed into a True Beholder now. So be an Elan for the Aberration type, meaning only one PaO is necessary to make it permanent (though you could go for two if you wanted to be a human, I suppose). Find a Dweomerkeeper to Supernatural Spell the casting (so it can't be dispelled), and you're good to go for a Druid 5 / Beholder Mage 9 / Planar Shepherd 5 / Tainted Scholar 1 build. Use Savage Species to get the [evil] subtype via ritual (or be a Necropolitan), and you're immune to taint.

And that means you should get planar bubble toys, Beholder Mage casting, spells keyed off Taint, and immunity to negative effects of Taint (giving you leave to pump your Taint score into the heavens and beyond with no ill effects and get the save DC boosts and bonus spells that let you nova with a fury that would quite possibly impress deities).

[Tyndmyr]

It gets worse when you realize there's enough room in a Beholder Mage build for Druid 5/Planar Shepherd 5... enabling planar bubble action advantage. You probably don't have 110 spells to throw down every round without Tainted Scholar or something, though. A tricky thing to manage because you would have to stay True Beholder to keep advancing as a Beholder Mage and when it's done you have to at least have the eyestalks to use its powers. Or you can try to plant 10 grafted eyestalks on yourself for something like 198,000gp apiece.

Yknow what goes better with Beholder Mage than Planar Shepherd?

Tainted Scholar and Dweomerkeeper. There was a build floating around here at some point that crammed all that it. More horrible stuff as well.

[SurlySeraph]

This one, right? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=140618)

[Tyndmyr]

That'd be the one. If you're worried about low level survivability, use DFA(or any other high fort class) instead of monk.

It is a horrifically scary thing.

[The Glyphstone]

Actually, I'll argue this. Kingdom is a very strict, defined term and there is only three choices for it. Mineral, meaning base components, even Oxygen fits into this, could also be stretched to mean the dead. Vegetable means some form of plant and Animal means some form of living, bleeding thing.


the problem with this is that the classification system in which Kingdom is strictly defined isn't from a world that includes dragons, angels, and tentacled horrors from beyond reality. Particularly the tentacled horrors from beyond reality. As I mentioned, this is supported by PaO explicitly listing "etc." - if everything in D&D fit into the Animal/Mineral/Vegetable, that "etc." would be unncessary.

[Tyndmyr]

I tend to take Glyph's interpretation of this.

Note that this doesn't entirely fix the issue...it merely means you have to have PaO cast twice. It hardly fixes beholder mage.

[FMArthur]

The Assume Supernatural Ability feat grants you all the eyestalks in one hit, and taking it a second time provides the antimagic eye. You just need to be polymorphed into a True Beholder now. So be an Elan for the Aberration type, meaning only one PaO is necessary to make it permanent (though you could go for two if you wanted to be a human, I suppose). Find a Dweomerkeeper to Supernatural Spell the casting (so it can't be dispelled), and you're good to go for a Druid 5 / Beholder Mage 9 / Planar Shepherd 5 / Tainted Scholar 1 build. Use Savage Species to get the [evil] subtype via ritual (or be a Necropolitan), and you're immune to taint.

And that means you should get planar bubble toys, Beholder Mage casting, spells keyed off Taint, and immunity to negative effects of Taint (giving you leave to pump your Taint score into the heavens and beyond with no ill effects and get the save DC boosts and bonus spells that let you nova with a fury that would quite possibly impress deities).

Acquiring extra subtypes and becoming undead for proper Taint abuse are what I was talking about that would disqualify you from Beholder Mage (no longer being exactly a True Beholder), so you'd have to get those things after you had what you wanted out of the class. That's all I was saying. Finding a Dweomerkeeper with Supernatural Spell (PAO) is a pretty contrived circumstance of the kind that's probably best to avoid in mega-cheese theoretical optimization (same with using your own opinions on PAO's function that very simply are not in the text as if they were the real game rules). Staying a Beholder after its progression is over probably isn't the very height of your power anyway - sooner or later you'd want to use a stronger form to plant eyestalk grafts on to use your BM class abilities with.

[VirOath]

the problem with this is that the classification system in which Kingdom is strictly defined isn't from a world that includes dragons, angels, and tentacled horrors from beyond reality. Particularly the tentacled horrors from beyond reality. As I mentioned, this is supported by PaO explicitly listing "etc." - if everything in D&D fit into the Animal/Mineral/Vegetable, that "etc." would be unncessary.

Reread PoA

Same kingdom (animal, vegetable, mineral) +5
Same class (mammals, fungi, metals, etc.) +2
There is no "etc." in the Kingdom category, only once you get to Class. So it's from a list of three, as there is nothing stating that there are more choices than Animal, Vegetable, and Mineral.

Dragons, Angels, and Tentacled Horrors From Beyond Reality are defined and separated by class. And to ground it further in the Real World, if Aliens visited us then they would most likely be a fitting of Animal for the Kingdom definition.

[elonin]

the problem with this is that the classification system in which Kingdom is strictly defined isn't from a world that includes dragons, angels, and tentacled horrors from beyond reality. Particularly the tentacled horrors from beyond reality. As I mentioned, this is supported by PaO explicitly listing "etc." - if everything in D&D fit into the Animal/Mineral/Vegetable, that "etc." would be unncessary.

One can argue the logic of the dnd system, but this seems pointless. One example that supports aberrations being the same is the fact that there is only one category in the list of favored enemies.

[Urpriest]

One can argue the logic of the dnd system, but this seems pointless. One example that supports aberrations being the same is the fact that there is only one category in the list of favored enemies.

Then humans and orcs would be different classes.

Class is supposed to cover categories like mammal or fungi. So to that effect, I would argue that you get Same Class between Elan and Beholder only in Eberron. In Eberron all aberrations are aberrations because of their Daelkyr heritage. A shared artificial heritage is a much closer connection than that between mammals. In other settings Elans exist because of psions researching immortality, while Beholders are children of the Great Mother, a deity/layer of the Abyss. I'd put Beholders in the same class as demons from that layer (and possibly demons in general) and Elans probably near either Unbodied or Warforged.

Type is clearly not what is meant, as many types have mammals.

[LOTRfan]

Then humans and orcs would be different classes.

Class is supposed to cover categories like mammal or fungi. So to that effect, I would argue that you get Same Class between Elan and Beholder only in Eberron. In Eberron all aberrations are aberrations because of their Daelkyr heritage. A shared artificial heritage is a much closer connection than that between mammals. In other settings Elans exist because of psions researching immortality, while Beholders are children of the Great Mother, a deity/layer of the Abyss. I'd put Beholders in the same class as demons from that layer (and possibly demons in general) and Elans probably near either Unbodied or Warforged.

Type is clearly not what is meant, as many types have mammals.

Actually, they aren't really related in Eberron, either. Elans are living prisons that Quori spirits are bound too. They are more akin to Kalashtar and Inspired than Mindflayers and Beholders.

[FMArthur]

One can argue the logic of the dnd system, but this seems pointless. One example that supports aberrations being the same is the fact that there is only one category in the list of favored enemies.

Okay. You can stand around all day and tell us that Elans should be considered the same as Beholders here, and the complete and utter lack of text to support that can then bite you in the ass to varying degrees when you poll a panel of judges or a DM or what have you. Creature Type is not what is being referenced at all by PAO, which is what so many of you seem to believe. It is not. Its relationship to Creature Type is unmentioned.

Yeah, it's a vague sort of spell. There's no helping that; avoid the vague bits if you want something in TO to be on really solid ground. Don't pretend they say something else that sounds similar and assume that gets you by.

[elonin]

I'll retract my statement then. Sorry bout that.

[Alleran]

Acquiring extra subtypes and becoming undead for proper Taint abuse are what I was talking about that would disqualify you from Beholder Mage (no longer being exactly a True Beholder)
Eh, that seems like a very strict interpretation of the requirements. Just being undead, for one, shouldn't mean that you are no longer a "true beholder" for the purposes of the class.

[Tyndmyr]

Acquiring extra subtypes and becoming undead for proper Taint abuse are what I was talking about that would disqualify you from Beholder Mage (no longer being exactly a True Beholder), so you'd have to get those things after you had what you wanted out of the class.

That's not a major thing. Managing taint is fairly easy, even if you don't go the undead route. You can just have it healed away via things like Restoration. Given that the build contains Ur-Priest...you can do this yourself. So, stay comfortably under the max and enjoy.

And again, the same type thing is fairly unclear. Using a second PaO before the first expires is the easiest way to clear up this fuzziness, and frankly, it's not a great hardship.

[Shining Wrath]

Actually, I'll argue this. Kingdom is a very strict, defined term and there is only three choices for it. Mineral, meaning base components, even Oxygen fits into this, could also be stretched to mean the dead. Vegetable means some form of plant and Animal means some form of living, bleeding thing.

All aberrations are Animals of some form or another when it comes to Kingdom. There is nothing for them to fit under.

In my own book, for the purpose of the rules, all aberrations share the same creature type, so are the same class. Related fall down to the derivatives/relatives that you've mentioned, those directly related to blood.

Because one does need to remember, anything of the Humanoid(X) type is in the same Creature Class, so as far as PaO cares, turning a gnome to an orc hits that same class. And all Magical Beasts share the same Creature Class, and those are just as varied as Elan to Beholder.

Elans aren't Altered Humans. They can go without eating, they don't age, they reproduce by taking those of other races and turning them into Elans. And in doing so, they lose all Racial Traits. Because Elans are mostly humans, but there are Elves and Dwarves that are Elans as well. And you'll need to face it, they might as well be a race of aberrations that implants their young into a host body to take it over, and then take their shape when the host is fully consumed.

Elans only look pretty, they rely on the defense of disguise to protect their ranks from the other races. They are aberrations that look human, they are not Altered Humans. Even for their choice of defense, of imitation, they still take a negative to Cha because of just how different, strange and alien their thoughts and values truly are.

Kingdom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_%28biology%29)has a meaning in biology, and I don't think it's animal, mineral, vegetable.