TWF/2h/simple weapons q's.

[vageta31]

Ok so my rogue at level 1 has TWF and is currently using 2 thrown darts and 2 short swords for weapons. No weapon finesse yet, and it looks like I may wait for level 3 to pick it up. Good thing is I have a +2 str modifier, versus +3 dex modifier so finesse won't help much that much just yet.

Next problem is I may take a 0 BAB class(cloistered cleric) next level, but the knowledge checks can add at least +1 to make up for it, but nonetheless I lose a BAB until I can get Rogue 2.

My question is basically the best way to utilize my weapon choices to get successful attacks. Obviously flanking and catching opponents flat footed is key, but not always doable. TWF is giving me a -2 penalty, so I'm assuming that if I only stick to one weapon for now it's negated and it might be best to do that unless I have a good chance of a full sneak attack round to get the extra damage.

Rogue and cloistered cleric are limited to simple weapons + whatever rogues can use by default. Since I'm not doing weapon finesse yet I get bonus while wielding 1h weapons with 2h(or is it not the finesse but weapon type that determine this?).

Should I switch to longspear for 1d8 range weapon, and get a 2x str bonus to damage as I'd have better luck hitting and making up the damage?

Should I get armor spikes and use the longspear with TWF so I can still threaten 5 and 10 feet? (note i do have combat reflexes). Does it work if I get off a single attack at 10ft, then if creature without reach closes I can get an AoO with he spiked armor at 5ft?

Or is there something else I'm missing? I'm wanting to roleplay my guy as more of a tactician, especially since my group mates are not heheh. Seems at this level going full TWF with no weapon finesse was foolish. In 2 sessions I've whiffed 4x more than I've hit ANYTHING. I'd rather hit more often for less damage than miss completely all the time.

I'm thinking longspear with 2h on top of flanking when I can is my best bet. Or even standing behind the half orc fighter in my group is also smart as he'd have to go around and provoke AoO from both of us I'd presume. If I can get a straight line on an initiative round I could even charge and get another +2.

Thoughts?

[HunterOfJello]

The first thing you should know is that if you calculate the probabilities, you're always better off taking two attacks at -2/-2 than a single attack at +0. This is largely because of the fact that rolling a natural 20 is an automatic hit in d&d.


If you have +100 to attack and the enemy has 20 AC, then you can only miss the enemy by rollling a natural 1. So, the odds of you hitting the enemy with a single attack at +100 is 95%, while the odds of you hitting the enemy with at least one of two attacks at +98/+98 is 97.75%. (This is the best case scenario of having a high attack vs. low AC)

If you have +0 to attack and the enemy has 20 or 21 AC, then the only opportunity for you hit the enemy is on a natural 20. The odds of you hitting the enemy with one +0 attack in this case is 5%, while the odds of you hitting the enemy with at least one of two attacks at -2/-2 is 9.75%. (This is your worst case scenario where you have low attack vs. high AC).

In both of these cases and in all the cases in between, your odds of having at least one attack hit with two attacks at -2/-2 is better than than a single attack at +0.


One of the sad things about starting at low levels is that many characters are likely to miss enemies more often than they hit. Especially classes that don't have Full BAB and don't put lots of points in to strength.

I would recommend sticking it out with TWF using two rogue weapons while trying to get flanking on your enemies by tumbling until you can get to higher levels. At higher levels you can grab Weapon Finesse which will make you less reliant on Strength and allow you to focus more on Dexterity. You'll also be able to get enough points in Tumble to avoid Attacks of Opportunity.

As far as weapons go, a Rapier and Short Sword or two short swords are both good options.

Using a Longspear and Armor Spikes can be an effective way of using TWF, but isn't usually as popular for rogues since rogues aren't proficient with Armor Spikes. The -4 for lack of proficiency will hurt a lot in fights, especially if you're already having trouble hitting enemies.

[vageta31]

Forgot about the armor spikes and proficiency. Does the longspear get the 2h str bonus though? Charging with the spear vs TWF would effectively give me +4 to hit... and I'd only get the single attack anyways. If I get 2x str then it'd be 1d8+4 and possible SA if creature hasn't acted yet.

You're right about low levels and missing. I've whiffed like 8x in a row before, though I've only been hit twice in both sessions combined. Our damn half orc fighter hits more often than not with hit +4 str bonus and +1 BAB. But for me that's a good thing as he can get their attention and let me flank.

And that formula is interesting, though it assumes you will get both attacks in the round. For any round you have to move more than 5ft you only get the single. But I do understand the gist of it. More often than not I'll hit more even with the TWF penalty than 1 weapon with no penalty. Now surviving the encounter with the safety of reach and a big meat shield in front of me is a different story hehe.

[vageta31]

One more question. If you're holding two weapons but only attack with one do you still take the -2 penalty? My guess with swords is yes, but what about spiked gauntlet? Say I wield a longspear with one gauntlet equipped but don't use it, am I not taking a penalty? I'm not truly "holding" the gauntlet. On a round where I'd get TWF could I attack with spear then move 5ft and attack with gauntlet? Or even weirder... If I attack primarily with spear but still have gauntlet equipped... and someone passed through my threat range adjacent to me where spear doesn't threaten, would my gauntlet still be able to attack? Seems like it's skirting the RAW but just curious.

[HunterOfJello]

I'm not sure where you're getting your Strx2 calculation from. If you attack with a two-handed weapon held in two hands then you get the weapons damage along with Strx1.5 , so if your strength is 14 with a modifier of (+2) then your damage would be 1d8+3.


If you are holding two weapons and only attack with one, you take no penalty to attack. (Assuming you are proficient and the other 'weapon' isn't something like a tower shield.)

~

You can take a 5ft step during a Full-Attack Action. That is, you can attack, 5ft step and attack again if you have the ability to attack twice in that round.

~

As far as gauntlets go, the SRD states that attacks with them do lethal damage but count as unarmed attacks. This means that you would have to have Improved Unarmed Strike to use them for AoO.

However, Spiked Gauntlets are considered weapons and attacks with them are considered armed attacks. So, for spiked gauntlets you can make AoO against ajacent targets while wielding a 2-handed reach weapon.

[Darrin]

One more question. If you're holding two weapons but only attack with one do you still take the -2 penalty?


No. If you decide not to make any off-hand attacks, you get your iterative attack(s) as normal regardless of what you're holding in both hands. If you have a rapier in one hand and a dagger in the other, you can decide to attack with either one as your primary attack. If you're not using TWF to make off-hand attacks, there is no TWF penalty.

If you have multiple iterative attacks, you can even switch your primary weapon on each attack. If you had BAB +6 and were holding a rapier in one hand and a dagger in your other, you could attack with the rapier at +6 and switch to the dagger for your second attack at +1. Since neither attack is an "off-hand" attack, there are no TWF penalties.



My guess with swords is yes, but what about spiked gauntlet? Say I wield a longspear with one gauntlet equipped but don't use it, am I not taking a penalty? I'm not truly "holding" the gauntlet.


As long as you're wearing the gauntlet, it's "ready" to attack with it. Even if you're holding a two-handed weapon, it's generally allowed to take one hand off or re-grip a weapon as a "free action" (i.e., you hold a longbow with two hands, but are allowed to draw ammunition with one hand as a free action). Likewise, if you're holding a two-handed weapon with a spiked gauntlet, it's generally allowed to let go of the weapon as a free action to make an attack and then re-grip your weapon. While it's not explicitly allowed by RAW, Skip Williams says it should be allowed (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20041102a).



On a round where I'd get TWF could I attack with spear then move 5ft and attack with gauntlet? Or even weirder...


Yes, you can take a 5' step between attacks. Letting go of the spear and re-gripping it are free actions.

If you're standing next to your opponent, you could also attack with the gauntlet, take a 5' step back, and then make an off-hand attack with the spear or with a thrown weapon (TWF attacks can be either melee or ranged).



If I attack primarily with spear but still have gauntlet equipped... and someone passed through my threat range adjacent to me where spear doesn't threaten, would my gauntlet still be able to attack? Seems like it's skirting the RAW but just curious.

Yes, the spiked gauntlet still threatens. Any melee weapon you can attack with normally on your turn threatens the squares around you. Since you can make normal melee attacks with the gauntlet on your turn, you can make AoOs with it.

Note: there's a bit of a rules hiccup with the "let go/re-grip" thing as a free action on AoOs, since you can only take free actions on your own turn, but it's really not worth going into, and most DMs aren't anal-retentive enough to enforce it.

You mentioned cloistered cleric, I assume to get access to the Knowledge and Travel Devotions. What other domains/devotions were you considering? Some suggestions:

Animal Devotion. Kind of a swiss-army toolkit. Ape's Fury gives you a +2 sacred/profane bonus on Str, which basically means a +1 to hit/damage for 10 rounds 1/day, which may help alleviate the whiffing a little bit. Cheetah's Sprint gives a sacred/profane bonus to your speed, very useful for tactical stuff, and it stacks with most other speed bonuses. Hawks' Flight lets you *fly* at 1st level for 10 rounds 1/day... oh no that couldn't possibly be useful. Serpent's Strike gives you a bite attack that you can add to your full attack progression as a secondary attack (-5 penalty, 1/2 Str bonus on damage), plus poison (ask the party cleric/druid to look up venomfire later).

Law Devotion. Not exactly the first pick for a rogue, but the +3 sacred/profane bonus on attacks is one of the quickest ways to turn a lot of those misses into hits, at least for 10 rounds a day. And if you get into trouble or can't make a full attack, you can swap the bonus over to your AC. The Chaos Devotion provides a somewhat similar bonus, but it's random every round whether it applies to your attacks or AC, so harder to use tactically.

Magic Domain. Activate wands and scrolls as a 1st level wizard. Put wand chambers (100 GP, Dungeonscape) in each weapon and invest in a variety swift/immediate-action wands. Quicker to pick up this way rather than waiting until your UMD is high enough to consistently hit DC 20.

If you want to focus on tactics, I'd suggest picking up a few nets or a lasso, and stock up on some grenade-like weapons. Nets and lassos are exotic, but even with the -4 non-proficiency penalty ranged touch attacks are generally easier to hit with. Drawing them still requires an action, but make them masterwork for +1 attack and you can add a Least Crystal of Return for only 300 GP (free Quickdraw with that weapon). Add Blister Oil (15 GP, Fort save DC 15 vs. Xd4 untyped damage, X = number of applications) for a little massive damage and a -2 penalty on the Escape Artist check on top of the entangle penalties.

There is no non-proficiency penalty for grenade-like weapons. Acid and alchemist's fire are still decent damage at low level, but there are a few grenade-like weapons that can be devastating and are still relatively cheap: dust eggshell grenades (10 GP, automatically blinds for 1d4 rounds) and aboleth mucus (20 GP, Fort save DC 19 vs suffocate in 2-3 minutes). Drawing them quickly can be a bit problematic, though. Ask your DM if you can use a potion belt (1 GP, FRCS) to draw potion-like items (flasks of <blah>, alchemical items, etc.) as a free action. Otherwise, a Tempo Bloodspike (150 GP, Magic of Eberron) can give you an extra move action. If the ranged touch attacks are still missing, get a sprayer (25 GP, A&EG) and fill it with alchemist's fire: 5' x 10' area effect, automatically hits, no save.

Another good cheap/low-level tactic: Torch Bug Paste (25 GP, Complete Scoundrel) + Liquid Smoke (20 GP, Oriental Adventures) or obscuring mist/pyrotechnics/fog cloud/etc. You have concealment but your target doesn't.

If you can't effectively attack that round, then do something with the terrain: marbles, caltrops, blasting pellets, liquid ice, springwall, tangle wire, etc. Buy a jug of shapesand (100 GP, Sandstorm), and you've got any equipment you can imagine just a Wisdom check away. Even if your opponent just moves around it, then he loses the ability to charge/full attack that round. If you have time to spread the shapesand on the ground before the battle starts, you can turn it into marbles/caltrops/etc. while your opponents are standing on it just by making a Wisdom check.

[vageta31]

Wow thanks for all of the info. I am definitely wanting to focus on tactics as my character's goal is to be sort of a tactical genius. He has high int for skill points but also plays into the idea of him being so tactical in battle. He unfortunately has low wisdom(I dumped it thinking I wouldn't need it), and now my idea of helping out with some minor clerical duties is difficult(only one cleric in 5 man party and he is taking 3 weeks off soon). However I believe I can still make use of the cleric level with my tactics and if I can get wis up later via items and such I can begin to use the spells. Talked to my DM about retooling my stats and/or retiring my guy and rerolling but he doesn't want me to. He said if I want to be part cleric, then do it and find ways to get your wisdom up. He has given out bonuses for RP and backstory(I got a free combat reflexes at level 1 which was sweet) and I believe if I took this path and RP it well he would help my guy out. He mentioned I could get bonus wis point{s} for making wise choices and could even reward me with wis items.

Anyways the cloistered cleric option with low wisdom means I can't cast but still get domain/devotion powers which would come in handy. I was planning on rogue/swordsage with a sprinkle of fighter for the extra feats so flexible mobility is a huge concern of mine. Swordsage will offer some of that, but celerity and travel domains will also. Also I have no deity and found that a non-deity cleric can choose his own domains based on his devotion to an ideal or moral path. Now I have to come up with one that can give me the domains I want. Knowledge is free and will switch to devotion to up my lack of BAB by taking cleric level 2. Leaves me two domains and I'm thinking...

Undeath (free extra turning) for fueling my devotion powers. Spells won't be all that handy, but once I can cast the raise undead may a useful tactic in battle for getting flanking buddies or providing meat shields.

Celerity for free 10ft movement and nice domain spells. Haste at level 4 is insane for me and the party instead of relying on our only arcane caster in the party.

Travel Devotion for the swift action movement, and it only takes 2 turns to refuel it. If I got my movement to 40ft then I'd get swift action for that amount on top of normal movement. With sneak attack and initiative it'd be an awesome combo. Swoop in, sneak attack then move back 40 ft. Or swift action into flanking position for free SA.

Healing Devotion. This would allow me to do what I was intending, offer some minor healing at least to prevent death and it scales with character level. Healing 1 for 10 points outside of battle is nothing to sneeze at, and if I have a turning attempt in reserve I would automatically stabilize if I go to 0 or below as long as I'm not dead. Survivability is nice.

Lawful sounds awesome but won't work with my chaotic neutral guy unless I wanted to come up with some cheesball logic which I don't want to do.

Anyways I'm thinking Knowledge devotion and Undeath domain are guaranteed choices right now. My cha has no bonus so I can't get extra turning and don't want to waste stat gain on CHA. Leaves me one domain and I could still add another devotion via feat. Celerity is awesome but the spells wouldn't help me till way later in game if I even go that high in cleric, and the 10ft bonus to speed can be gotten other ways. Quick trait if DM allows me to take it. HP loss sucks, but CON is 15 and I could always spend a stat allotment point to make it 16 and make up for that 1hp loss. Normally I wouldn't have added one to CON.

Travel devotion is my top choice but not sure if I should add it as a feat or just convert the domain for free. I need to burn at least one feat for a devotion so it comes down to converting one and getting the other later. Healing devotion would be more handy for party survivability if cleric is gone, but travel devotion would give my guy more versatility in fights. I could just take healing for free domain and then at level 3 take travel devotion.

My build will be all over the place, RP wise it fits my guy. To learn the tactics and gain the experience he wishes then taking a bunch of different styles makes sense even if that means my character progression in one class takes a hit. A level of fighter with hit and run drow tactics would be sweet. Free +2 intitiate and dex to damage when flat footed with the bonus feat is a huge thing for me. Or swashbuckler 1 for free weapon finesse which I'd need and take ACF arcane stunt blur. Take Rogue to at least 3 for ACF penetrating strike, +2d6 sneak attack that will add to assassin stance when I pick up my first swordsage level (5 or 6, whichever gives me access to lvl 2 manuevers). Exp penalty could suffer if DM enforces it so I could take rogue 3, fighter 2, swordsage 2, cleric 2 and then go from there. If I manage to get my wis up it will benefit my swordsage AC bonus, and then I could take more cleric levels later to add utility. Things like bless and such are free + to hit for entire group and the CHA buffs would be nice for face skill checks.

Man there is just so much things to want, and so little feats and levels to choose them! Maybe DM will let me take a trait and a flaw to help out. The extra feat from the flaw could be my travel devotion and I could always buy the boots that add 10ft speed.