an undead question

[big teej]

so, I'm cruising through the SRD, checking out the undead type.


and it says nothin about whether I can use potions or not.

my character is a skeleton, and I want to by the elixer of retribution...

but it's a potion
and I'm a skeleton


is there a rule somewhere saying I can drink it?

if not, would you, as a dm, let me drink potions as a skeleton?

[RTGoodman]

Any corporeal creature can imbibe a potion.

Source HERE (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/potionsAndOils.htm).

[Daftendirekt]

RAW, it works, but I just picture Barbossa in the first PotC. It just dribbles down your skeletal throat and out of your chest onto the deck of your ship ground.

Zombies, on the other hand, just fine.

[big teej]

Source HERE (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/potionsAndOils.htm).

unfortunately, it also says 'must be able to swallow'
and... as a bone creature...

muscle conraction might be a wee bit difficult.


RAW, it works, but I just picture Barbossa in the first PotC. It just dribbles down your skeletal throat and out of your chest onto the deck of your ship ground.

Zombies, on the other hand, just fine.



hence the question, would you let it work?

[RTGoodman]

RAW, it works, but I just picture Barbossa in the first PotC. It just dribbles down your skeletal throat and out of your chest onto the deck of your ship ground.

Eh, it's magic. It's contingent on the action of drinking, not the act of digestion/absorption. I'm okay with it.

[Kuma Kode]

Buy an oil and rub it on yourself. Problem solved.

[Daftendirekt]

Buy an oil and rub it on yourself. Problem solved.

Yeah, the last bits of rotting flesh clinging to your bones need moisturizing anyway.

[Thurbane]

The full quote in the SRD says:

A creature must be able to swallow a potion or smear on an oil. Because of this, incorporeal creatures cannot use potions or oils.

Any corporeal creature can imbibe a potion. The potion must be swallowed. Any corporeal creature can use an oil.
Incorporeal creatures are the only creatures actively called out as not being able to swallow potions. You could rule that skeletons can't, but it would be a houserule. Trying to introduce common sense/real world physics rules above and beyond RAW can cause headaches, especially in the case of magic, as there no no "real world" analog to compare it to.

I believe there's also an optional rule somewhere that says potions don't actually have to be potions, they can be small clay tablets (or similar) that are broken to the same effect (unless I'm thinking of scrolls). And as above, there's always oils.

[Necro_EX]

That variant's from Complete Arcane, I believe.

Personally, I'd say skeletons can't really swallow, so they can't use potions. That second sentence kinda contradicts the first, afterall.

So, I'd go for tablets or oils, either of which should definitely work for a skeleton.

[big teej]

alrighty, this leads me to another question.

for purposes of a skeleton,

would it be potions as oils? (I.E. any potion is used and effects me as though it were an oil)

or would the price of "potions" go up to make it into an oil?

I'm really hazy on the potion/oil rules.

but if all I'd have to do is buy a potion and smear it on my bones, I'd be good to go.

[Keld Denar]

Compare a Potion of Cure Light Wounds (50g, 1st level spell) with an Oil of Bless Weapon (50g, 1st level spell). Makes it seem to me that potion = oil for the purposes of cost and creation. Bless weapon is in oil form since you cast it on a weapon, which also can't drink, although in theory you COULD have a potion of bless weapon that a monk could drink? Oh man, monks are soooooo broken! j/k!!!

[Darth Stabber]

I don't want to hear about what happens to the monk after he drinks an entire bottle of oil.

[AKTexas]

Interesting.

[Z3ro]

Incorporeal creatures are the only creatures actively called out as not being able to swallow potions. You could rule that skeletons can't, but it would be a houserule. Trying to introduce common sense/real world physics rules above and beyond RAW can cause headaches, especially in the case of magic, as there no no "real world" analog to compare it to.


You're right, you have to be careful with RAW. It specifically says the potion must be swallowed. Unfortunately, nothing defines what can or cannot swallow anywhere that I'm aware of. That call must be made by the DM; if the skeleton cannot swallow, the potion can't be used.

[Sillycomic]

A creature must be able to swallow a potion or smear on an oil. Because of this, incorporeal creatures cannot use potions or oils.

Any corporeal creature can imbibe a potion. The potion must be swallowed. Any corporeal creature can use an oil.

I don't know. It doesn't seem like a houserule. It clearly says that beyond being corporeal you also need some sort of swallowing function in order to use the potion. Zombies can swallow, skeletons can't.

Apart from skeletons if there were corporeal creatures who had no mouths... would they also benefit from potions? Let's say plants for example.

Or what if a cleric curses/geases a human so that he can no longer drink anything? Is he still allowed the benefit of a potion simply because he is a coporeal creature?

[vikingofdoom]

From Complete Arcane, I present alternate potions (which are created using brew potion and have no mechanical differences) that are relevant here:

Magic Tile: A small ceramic tile inscribed with a magic rune could hold a potion-type effect. When it is snapped or broken in one's hand, the effect is released.

Skull Talismans: The skull of a small animal (a bird, mouse, or rat, for example) enchanted with a single spell. When crushed in one's hand or underfoot, the skull talisman releases its stored effect.

Using these, as long as the item is a potion (and with a minor bit of houseruling, potion-based) it can be made into either of the above.

[kiryoku]

not to get off topic but the skull talismans can be used as a weapon/healing item by throwing them on the ground am i right because it says if they are crushed under foot they activate and he is undead right.

[randomhero00]

Personally I rule that potions are like positive energy and damage undead.

[Sillycomic]

A potion of cure light wounds would damage a skeleton, but a potion of inflict light wounds would cure him...

If there are any clerics out there making potions of inflict light wounds.

[kiryoku]

ya a inflict skull talisman would make sense and would it work like that as hurt them or heal you if your undead kind of thing?

[Darth Stabber]

A potion of cure light wounds would damage a skeleton, but a potion of inflict light wounds would cure him...

If there are any clerics out there making potions of inflict light wounds.

I know that dread necromancers make them on occasion.

[Keld Denar]

Plus, its fun to mislabel potions. A potion of inflict might heal you (due to necropolitan status, or Tomb-Tainted Soul feat), so to you, its a healing potion...label it as such. That'll also keep people from going through your crap, and might even posthumusly avenge you for an untimely death...

[big teej]

for the record, the potion that sparked this little discussion is the "elixer of retribution" in the DMG II

you drink it and if you are slain within 1 hour, you explode dealing 5d6 points of damage to everything within a 20ft radius of the sight of your demise.

for 856 gp (or something like that)

there is a greater version (160something )
that does 10d6


given that my character is out to die heroically (again) I thought this would be right up his alley

[Darth Stabber]

My last Dread Necro did just that. The party Rogue (who didn't pay attention when I gave the cleric a "Special wand" for healing me) stole a couple "cure serious" from me. During a big boss fight he needed a cure serious wounds potion, I'll let you fill in the rest.

[Asheram]

Compare a Potion of Cure Light Wounds (50g, 1st level spell) with an Oil of Bless Weapon (50g, 1st level spell). Makes it seem to me that potion = oil for the purposes of cost and creation. Bless weapon is in oil form since you cast it on a weapon, which also can't drink, although in theory you COULD have a potion of bless weapon that a monk could drink? Oh man, monks are soooooo broken! j/k!!!

*Monk cracks knuckles* "Bring me my lotion. I think I have some work to do."

[Thurbane]

I don't know. It doesn't seem like a houserule. It clearly says that beyond being corporeal you also need some sort of swallowing function in order to use the potion. Zombies can swallow, skeletons can't.

Apart from skeletons if there were corporeal creatures who had no mouths... would they also benefit from potions? Let's say plants for example.

Or what if a cleric curses/geases a human so that he can no longer drink anything? Is he still allowed the benefit of a potion simply because he is a coporeal creature?
The crux of the issue is that "ability to swallow" is not defined anywhere in game terms. Monster stats do not include a line "Ability to Swallow: Y/N". Hence the RAW is quite hazy.

Some monsters with bizarre anatomies, such as many Aberrations, Oozes and Plant monsters, are going to be quite difficult to make a call on. You'll end up with a situation where a DM in one game will rule that monster X can swallow, while a DM in another game may rule that the very same monster cannot swallow - and the fact of the matter is that both of their rulings would be equally valid.

That's why I believe the most straightforward thing to do is to rule that any corporeal creature has the ability to benefit from potions. Anything else is unnecessarily complicating the game, IMHO. Of course, in your own game, any ruling you make as a DM is completely valid. :smallwink:

Also, as a RAW nitpick, Elixirs, Draughts, Ointments and other wondrous items don't follow the same set of rules for use as Potions and Oils do, despite having a very similar physcial appearance.

[Z3ro]

That's why I believe the most straightforward thing to do is to rule that any corporeal creature has the ability to benefit from potions. Anything else is unnecessarily complicating the game, IMHO. Of course, in your own game, any ruling you make as a DM is completely valid. :smallwink:


I disagree that the best way is to rule that potions affect any corpreal creature. Swallowing is, if not in game terms, essential to a potion. If something without a mouth pours a potion all over itself, I'm going to rule as a DM that it gains no benefit.

Though you are right that it would be a DM's call if something can "swallow".

[Darth Stabber]

swallowing tends to be a common feature of monsters. Else what would they do with dead PCs?

[Sillycomic]

I will agree with you that there’s no exact ruling on swallowing and that this is a hazy aspect of DM calling at best. Some GM's might agree that plants and skeletons swallow, and others won’t.

However, I don’t agree with saying it should just be allowed because otherwise it’s confusing.

I’m perfectly happy stating that the rules specifically say the potion needs to be imbibed, so the creature you are playing needs some sort of anatomy with which imbibing is possible.

That being said, I see nothing in the rules that says you can't ask for an oil of Retribution and smear it all over your skeletal body for the same effect.

[Thurbane]

How about Elementals? (The do not eat, sleep or breathe).

How about Golems? (They do not eat, sleep or beathe).

How about creatures with no mouth, but due to their type, still eat (Oozes, most Plants, Will-o-wisp etc.)?

Can Plants absorb a potion through their roots?

Can (intelligent) swarms use a potion (assuming they have a STR score to lift the bottle)?

How about creatures damaged nby exposure to liquid?

Semi-skeletal undead? How much flesh do they actually need to be allowed to swallow?

...there's a veritable Pandora's box of questions about what can or cannot swallow. 5 Monster Manual's worth of creatures to ponder, not including the myriad of other books that have new monsters.

If a DM wants to go into this level of detail about something so relatively minor as chugging a potion, he certainly can, but it sounds like an avoidable headache to me. Especially when you consider that oils or clay tiles basically circumvent the issue entirely, while being virtually mechanically identical.

[Sillycomic]

Speaking of which, looking over Potions rules again there's also this little rule:


Activation
Drinking a potion or applying an oil requires no special skill. The user merely removes the stopper and swallows the potion or smears on the oil. The following rules govern potion and oil use.

This means technically you must also be physically able to remove the stopper as well as swallow the liquid.

Only plants, elementals, golems and oozes with opposible thumbs are allowed to imbibe!

[Thurbane]

Either that, or they need an ally with manipulative digits. You can feed a potion to an unconscious character as a full round action. I think it would be fair to assume the same goes for a conscious (but limbless) creature.

Of course, if you're a real RAW stickler, you could specify that you need to knock the limbless creature unconcious first! :smallbiggrin:

[Darth Stabber]

Of course, if you're a real RAW stickler, you could specify that you need to knock the limbless creature unconcious first! :smallbiggrin:

That is awesome. Good thing there is no hippocratic oath at this time.