[3.P] Spiked Chain Tank?

[Sarakos]

First off, yes i know Spiked chain got a nerf in Pathfinder but I do have a lenient DM who I can probably convince to allow the 3.5 version of the Spiked Chain. Thing is, i never tried any of these infamous tripping builds when our group was playing 3.5, I had a preference for uberchargers and rarely used anything other than Bull Rush and grapple. However, with Pathfinder's new Reposition rules I decided it might be fun to build a battlefield control oriented tank (closest thing we have to a "tank" at the moment is a Barbarian with 9 AC when he rages and charges).

Anyway, we have both Pathfinder core and APG available to us, 2 traits plus a third that the DM will assign to us and the choice between using Hero points or getting a bonus feat. assuming all stats start at 0 he gave us 72 points to play with for stats and we are starting currently at level 6 (intending to take this to 20). So here are some of my thoughts on how this might work....

Half-Elf Fighter 4/Sorcerer 1/ Dragon Disciple 1

Stats:
Str: 12 Dex: 16 Con:12 Int:13 Wis:8 Cha: 13

Probably ought to switch the Half-Elf +2 into Strength from Dex but not sure

Traits:
Ancestral Arms racial trait
Armor Expert combat trait

Skills:
Perception 3/4 of maxed ranks
Intimidate 3/4 of maxed ranks
Knowledge Aracana 5 ranks (extra skill points from multitalented using fighter and sorcerer as favored classes)
Sense Motive 3/4 of maxed ranks
Fly 3/4 of maxed ranks

All skills to be maxed after the Int boost from Dragon Disciple

Feats:
EWP (Spiked Chain) - Ancestral Arms trait
Combat Reflexes - Fighter bonus feat
Stand Still - no Hero Point feat
Combat Expertise - 1st level feat
Improved Initiative - Fighter bonus feat
Improved Trip - 3rd level feat
Improved Reposition - Fighter bonus feat
Greater Reposition - 5th level feat

Taking Greater trip and Blind Fight at 7th level, Blind fight being a Draconic feat

Equipment:
+1 Defending Spiked Chain
+1 Mithral Breastplate
Wand of Enlarge person
Potions of Bulls Strength

Buy potions of Bulls Strength and wands of enlarge person to overcome ACF and strength penalties for combat maneuvers until the Strength bonuses from Dragon disciple and gear begin to kick in.



I intend to to fight using the spiked chain and reposition + trips + AoOs + Stand Still to force enemies to focus on me while getting AC from Combat Expertise, and by enchanting my spiked chain with defending.

So, anyone with experience with Pathfinders trip and Reposition provide any tips or changes to the build? more feat suggestions? would it work or is it stupid?

Thanks in advance :)

[Gnaeus]

Con will not be as important to you as str or dex. A tripper should be trying to keep things away from him, on the ground, so an extra hp isn't critical. Getting an extra AOO, or winning the combat maneuver check, is critical.

Even with the size rule nerfs, a method of getting to large size is very important. A simple enlarge person gives a +3 to your cmb, and gives you a 20 foot range, which you need in order to keep enemies from reaching the squishies.

Even in PF, multiple levels of fighter are usually a bad idea.

My suggestion: Human Fighter 4/Sorcerer 1/Dragon Disciple 1 (advancing in dragon disciple) (or, if you can deal with lawful good, Paladin 2/Fighter 2/Sorcerer 1/DD1). After level 15, finish with more fighter, or a melee type PRC of choice.

Stats: Str 16, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 8, Wis 8, Cha 14 (or Cha 13, Con 14. It doesn't matter, either way, the 13 will get your next level increase bonus).

Skills: Max Perception, 5 ranks Know Arcane

Spells: Enlarge Person, True Strike (or get a wand of Enlarge person, so that you can cast it with no ASF)

Feats: Exactly as you have them, except for power attack. You can get it at level 7 with your bonus feat from dd.

The + Str bonuses from DD almost cancel out the losses from full BaB. Having a better Will save will help keep you from getting zapped (or worse, turned against your teammates) by save or lose effects. Blindsense & flight & Natural armor & energy resist are good for a tank to have anyway. The ability to spellcast or use wands when your base trick (tripping) doesn't work will give you a lot more flexibility at higher levels.

[grarrrg]

Even in PF, multiple levels of fighter are usually a bad idea...
My suggestion: Human Fighter 4/Sorcerer 1/Dragon Disciple 1...
Spells: Enlarge Person...
Having a better Will save...
The ability to spellcast or use wands...will give you a lot more flexibility at higher levels.

I agree with him on most points.
As an alternative to Sorc/Drag-Disc, you might consider a 1-to-4 level dip in Cleric (use Gnaeus's stats, but swap Wis and Cha), picking up either the Strength (https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/magic/spell-lists-and-domains/domains#TOC-Strength-Domain) or Plant (https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/magic/spell-lists-and-domains/domains#TOC-Plant-Domain) (Growth sub-domain) domains to gain Enlarge Person. I'd recommend the Plant (Growth-sub), as it gets you additional rounds of Swift-Action Enlarge.
Decent 2nd domains are:
Darkness, Blind-Fight bonus feat
Protection, +1 all saves
Void, +2 saves vs. mind affecting

Dipping Cleric can also open up the Holy Vindicator (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/holy-vindicator) PrC, although it doesn't add much to your build, the Stigmata bonus can be useful.

[Gnaeus]

I agree. Fighter 2/Cleric X can do pretty much anything the fighter can do, better. It is a very valid alternative.

[Sarakos]

@Gnaeus

Thats some interesting advice, we have 4 casters in the party already, single class bard, wizard/rogue going arcane trickster, one sorceror, and an oracle so getting enlarge person shouldn't be too much of a problem but it would help me sleep much easier if I didn't have to rely on my party for too much :)

The only thing is that Power Attack is a pre-requisite for Shield of swings. It stings to drop it but I probably can up my AC enough through Combat expertise, and fighting defensively plus Defending weapons

[Gnaeus]

@Gnaeus

Thats some interesting advice, we have 4 casters in the party already, single class bard, wizard/rogue going arcane trickster, one sorceror, and an oracle so getting enlarge person shouldn't be too much of a problem but it would help me sleep much easier if I didn't have to rely on my party for too much :)

Well, one sorc level + dragon disciple doesn't really make you a caster. It makes you a meleer who can use wands. Clearly, it is better if your dedicated casters can buff you. But sometimes, the wizard can't take time out for the Fly spell.


The only thing is that Power Attack is a pre-requisite for Shield of swings. It stings to drop it but I probably can up my AC enough through Combat expertise, and fighting defensively plus Defending weapons

If they are tripped, 15 feet away your ac could be 8 or 80. As a battlefield controller, you aren't trying to trade hits with them. Your hp should be good. Your ac should be good enough that they can't hit you reliably when they have a -4 from being prone. If you need shield +, the Shield spell is better than Shield of Swings, because you don't need to half your damage.

[Sarakos]

If they are tripped, 15 feet away your ac could be 8 or 80. As a battlefield controller, you aren't trying to trade hits with them. Your hp should be good. Your ac should be good enough that they can't hit you reliably when they have a -4 from being prone. If you need shield +, the Shield spell is better than Shield of Swings, because you don't need to half your damage.

Then in that case I should just go straight for Bodyguard, swift aid, and In Harms Way and forget about shield of swings. What about Agile maneuvers though? If I'm buffing Strength and Dexterity at the cost of Constitution could I save a feat and drop Agile Maneuvers?

@grarrg Holy Vindicator was one way I considered trying to tank before i decided I REALLY wanted to try out the reposition and tripping rules, that and i played some form of Divine caster in my last three games and was getting tired of them :P

[grarrrg]

I just threw Holy Vindicator out there as it's the only real Cleric PrC in core PF.

You should probably swap Human out for Half-Elf (https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/races/core-races/half-elf). You'll lose your Skill point per level, but come out ahead otherwise.
Swap out the Skill Focus Feat for the Ancestral Arms Alternate Racial (this 'keeps' your human-bonus-feat of EWP-Spiked Chain),
2 Favored Classes,
Low-Light Vision,
Immune to Magical Sleep,
+2 saves vs. Enchantments,
And +2 Perception checks.

[Sarakos]

I just threw Holy Vindicator out there as it's the only real Cleric PrC in core PF.

You should probably swap Human out for Half-Elf (https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/races/core-races/half-elf). You'll lose your Skill point per level, but come out ahead otherwise.
Swap out the Skill Focus Feat for the Ancestral Arms Alternate Racial (this 'keeps' your human-bonus-feat of EWP-Spiked Chain),
2 Favored Classes,
Low-Light Vision,
Immune to Magical Sleep,
+2 saves vs. Enchantments,
And +2 Perception checks.

Thats... pretty interesting actually. I wasn't really using the extra skill point and don't need it so much. Ill have to look into this.

[Gnaeus]

Then in that case I should just go straight for Bodyguard, swift aid, and In Harms Way and forget about shield of swings. What about Agile maneuvers though? If I'm buffing Strength and Dexterity at the cost of Constitution could I save a feat and drop Agile Maneuvers?


I would. Unless you anticipate fights with lots and lots of mooks, in which you regularly need more than 3 AOOs. High Str helps your damage. High Dex helps you stop multiple enemies at once. Agile Maneuvers would let you ignore your Str to have high Dex, But...

Enlarge (which you want to use for additional reach) buffs your Str and debuffs your dex.
Dragon Disciple buffs your strength.

You should buff whichever attribute is determing your CMB as high as it can go. At a certain point, most enemies become functionally untrippable. You want to delay that day for as long as you can.

[Sarakos]

I would. Unless you anticipate fights with lots and lots of mooks, in which you regularly need more than 3 AOOs. High Str helps your damage. High Dex helps you stop multiple enemies at once. Agile Maneuvers would let you ignore your Str to have high Dex, But...

Enlarge (which you want to use for additional reach) buffs your Str and debuffs your dex.
Dragon Disciple buffs your strength.

You should buff whichever attribute is determing your CMB as high as it can go. At a certain point, most enemies become functionally untrippable. You want to delay that day for as long as you can.

I actually do anticipate fighting lots of mooks, The DM was vague about the story but from what I understand, the BBEG has a small army under his command

[grarrrg]

If you go a higher Dex route then definately take at least 3 levels of Fighter for the Armor Training bonus; +1 max Dex bonus and full speed in Medium Armor.
Sadly the next Armor Training boost isn't until Fighter 7, although it does give full speed in Heavy Armor.


Stalwart Defender is also "almost" perfect for this build.
Except for the whole "crappy pre-req feats" and "cannot move" thing...
Fits the flavor nicely though.

[Sarakos]

If you go a higher Dex route then definately take at least 3 levels of Fighter for the Armor Training bonus; +1 max Dex bonus and full speed in Medium Armor.
Sadly the next Armor Training boost isn't until Fighter 7, although it does give full speed in Heavy Armor.


Stalwart Defender is also "almost" perfect for this build.
Except for the whole "crappy pre-req feats" and "cannot move" thing...
Fits the flavor nicely though.

Yeah, when I decided on a Tank build i gave Stalwart Defender a couple hard looks along with Holy Vindicator, the BaB pre-req meant I'd get full movement in Heavy armor before prestiging but the cannot move thing turned me off, although I probably wont need to move too much once the battle starts with the reach from spiked chain and Reposition + trip the sucker punch are the feat pre-requisites

[Spiryt]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/54/Sherman_crab_flail_tank.jpg/634px-Sherman_crab_flail_tank.jpg

[grarrrg]

(pic)

You forgot the "Spiked"

[Sarakos]

Spiryt, your rank of troll is well-deserved lol

Updated the OP with what I'm currently considering for a build. Very happy with the Dragon Disciple and Half elf suggestions. Dragon Disciple adds an aura of thuggishness and grimness I had in mind when I first came up with the idea. While Half-Elf work for the build even better than Human, i just cant mentally picture half-elf thugs as being very physically imposing, the picture makes me giggle actually. As such, I decided to refluff this character to be heavily muscled with rounded ears and so is easily mistaken for human at a first glance. Upon closer inspection however, one can spot scar tissue at the top of his ears where the tips were cut off. Whether he did this himself to fit in to a human society or were cut off by xenophobic humans would be a mystery to the party and provide a bit of mystery to the character as well as the potential for some backstory exploration.

[grarrrg]

Half-Elf Fighter 4/Sorcerer 1/ Dragon Disciple 1



Alternate option:
Drop Sorc, take Summoner (https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/classes/base-classes/summoner).
Summoners are still Spontaneous Cha-based Arcane casters (i.e. qualify for Dragon Disciple), and they still get Enlarge Person as a 1st level spell.
BUT
Summoners can Cast spells while wearing Light armor with no penalty!They also have d8hd and 3/4 Bab (more useful if doing Fractional Bab)

Granted, they have [2] Level 1 spells per day (bonus from 13+ Cha), versus the Sorc's [4] Level 1 spells. But you have already stated that your party is caster heavy, so it shouldn't matter too much.

Your Eidolon will be forever weak, so making it a scout or (minor) skill monkey would be the best bet. Maybe Scent and Swim for a Scout, and Skilled (+8 racial bonus!) for the Skill Monkey.

tl;dr
Take Summoner instead of Sorc, you gain 2hp, and have NO spell failure in Light Armor.

[Sarakos]

Alternate option:
Drop Sorc, take Summoner (https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/classes/base-classes/summoner).
Summoners are still Spontaneous Cha-based Arcane casters (i.e. qualify for Dragon Disciple), and they still get Enlarge Person as a 1st level spell.
BUT
Summoners can Cast spells while wearing Light armor with no penalty!They also have d8hd and 3/4 Bab (more useful if doing Fractional Bab)

Granted, they have [2] Level 1 spells per day (bonus from 13+ Cha), versus the Sorc's [4] Level 1 spells. But you have already stated that your party is caster heavy, so it shouldn't matter too much.

Your Eidolon will be forever weak, so making it a scout or (minor) skill monkey would be the best bet. Maybe Scent and Swim for a Scout, and Skilled (+8 racial bonus!) for the Skill Monkey.

tl;dr
Take Summoner instead of Sorc, you gain 2hp, and have NO spell failure in Light Armor.

No spell failure is tempting by itself as well as fun with reposition and create trap. Maybe grease the walls with the spell and set the pit on fire with Dragon breath....

Our party is large however and half of the group is, while not really new, they aren't regular D&D players either and take time resolving turns. So much so, our DM asked the Summoner (our current Oracle) to switch classes to help speed up combat. Between slow combat and the fact that my eidolon would be near useless from multi-classing, I probably wouldn't even bother to build it with the evolution points I get and leave it in plane it lives on.

[Gnaeus]

Regarding the summoner suggestion, I still think sorcerer is better. It stacks with the draconic bloodline, gives more spells per day, and has a larger and more varied spell list.

If casting in armor is the issue, consider the following spells:

True Strike
Benign Transposition (if DM is allowing 3.5 stuff in)
Blindness/deafness
Blur
Displacement

Those are all good spells. No somatic components=no ASF. Pick most or all of those spells, and you can wear plate mail until character level 12. For other spells, pick long duration or out-of-combat spells. Fill in gaps with a wand or two.