ToB Questions

[Felyndiira]

I've been thinking about mixing ToB classes for one of my games, and the mechanics of mixing two different ToB classes is somewhat mind-boggling. Thus, I have a few questions about how it would work:


If you mix, say, a warblade 9, and dip crusader at level 10. I would imagine that the 5 new maneuvers that you learn as a crusader would only be of the crusader disciplines; however, can you then ready the maneuvers that you know as a warblade as one of your "maneuvers readied", or do those have to be the five that you learn as a crusader?
For that crusader level, are you considered to be initiator level 5 for devoted spirit and 10 for the other two due to your warblade levels, or would you be initiator level 5 for all three schools?
Would the crusader dip cut back your initiator level for Iron Heart and Diamond Mind (ala no Time Stands Still until level 19)?
Do the maneuvers you learn as a crusader count towards prerequisites for obtaining new maneuvers as the warblade? Namely, if I never learn a single white raven maneuver, and pick up a bunch of them during the crusader dip, can I then get War Master's Charge at the appropriate level?
A more general question - are the prestige classes for ToB classes with maneuver advancement worth it in the end? Personally, it's not the class features that I'm worried about as much as the maneuver replacement; a warblade, for instance, can replace ruby nightmare with diamond nightmare blade and eventually grab three or four level 9 maneuvers at level 20. Since none of the ToB prestige classes have this replacement, I'm afraid that taking levels in them (even the "good" ones like Eternal Blade) will cripple a character simply on the basis of not being able to replace low-level maneuvers.
Thanks :smallsmile:.

[Runestar]

1) Track them separately, as you would for the spells of a multiclassed wiz/cleric. So the maneuvers you can ready as a crusader would have to come from the 5 you selected with your 1st lv of crusader.

2) 5 for all 3 schools. Again, just track them separately, and you save yourself a lot of hassle.

3) Yes, since you would have to be a warblade17/crusader1 (or warblade16/crusader2) to get the IL17 necessary for 9th lv maneuvers. So you are delayed by 1 lv.

4) This one is debatable. The rules seem to imply that you simply need to know the maneuver (regardless of where it belongs). I am inclined to agree, since maneuvers are maneuvers regardless of which class they came from. So yes, you can use maneuvers from crusader to qualify for new maneuvers taken as a warblade.

5) No experience here, since I have never really played a high lv martial adept+prc combo.

[Douglas]

Runestar got the first 4, though I'll add a note that WotC is on record as saying yes for number 4 - maneuvers learned from one class do count towards prerequisites when picking maneuvers from another class.

For number 5, RAW most of those PrCs are probably not worth it. RAI, however, in my opinion it is fairly obvious that all of those PrCs were intended to continue base class swap progressions because the difference in maneuver progression rate is far too big for the difference in magnitude of class features without it but is dead on if you house rule swap progression in. So, house rule that all martial adept PrCs continue a base class's maneuver swapping, and all of them become at least decent.

[Runestar]

For number 5, RAW most of those PrCs are probably not worth it. RAI, however, in my opinion it is fairly obvious that all of those PrCs were intended to continue base class swap progressions because the difference in maneuver progression rate is far too big for the difference in magnitude of class features without it but is dead on if you house rule swap progression in. So, house rule that all martial adept PrCs continue a base class's maneuver swapping, and all of them become at least decent.

I disagree. Some of the prcs, such as the eternal blade and master of 9, offer a much faster rate of maneuvers readied progression compared to the warblade or crusader. They would be too good (compared to a pure warblade) if you could swap out maneuvers every even lv as well.

My guess is that you are to make a tradeoff between quality and quantity. Do you want a smaller number of high-lv maneuvers, or more lower lv maneuvers? :smallsmile:

[Douglas]

Maneuvers readied are only as good as the maneuvers known you have available to ready. Every PrC, with the sole exception of Master of Nine, has at best half the Warblade/Crusader maneuvers known progression with regard to higher level maneuvers. That is a crippling disadvantage. Even Master of Nine is barely tied with Swordsage despite an extremely heavy prerequisite list and strong fluff as being even more focused on maneuvers.

Adding maneuver swap progression makes them good. It does not by any stretch of the imagination make them too good, with the possible exception of Ruby Knight Vindicator - but that one's because of certain class features that are easily broken regardless of maneuver progression.

[Master_Rahl22]

Hmm, I like the idea of continuing maneuver swap progression. The only PrCs I've used from ToB are Shadow Sun Ninja and Mo9, and with the SSN I really noticed the slow maneuver progression. With the exception of the stacking with Monk for unarmed damage and other bonuses, most of the SSN tricks are really situational so I noticed when I had fewer options than a straight Swordsage.

[begooler]

The one advantage I could see for this character to take a martial prestige class is to use it to raise his initiator level for both classes.

This is dependent on how you rule on what the text says. The prestige classes typically say that you add you full prestige class level to your initiator level. They don't say anything about "you must choose which martial adept class to add your initiator to each level." However, it also doesn't explicitly say that you add your prestige class level to your initiator level in all classes if you have more than one.
OP may be interested if there's some clarification about this written somewhere.

So, let's assume you rule that you get to add your Eternal Blade, or whatever prc, level to your initiator level for both your warblade and crusader classes. This would be a nice way to raise you IL level some, then dip back into each of your base classes to learn higher level maneuvers.

[Keld Denar]

begooler, that's a pretty commonly known and used tactic, especially in builds that focus on trying to get all 9 9th level maneuvers known, as well as the repeater crusader (limiting maneuvers known to less than maneuvers granted and everything you know will be granted every round).

[begooler]

Nice to know. Wasn't sure if that was a common tactic, or a common mistake that doesn't work because of X reason.

[PollyOliver]

For #5, depending on your build, some of the PrC's are absolutely worth it, some moderately worth it or worth dipping, and some worth it only if you have a source of bonus feats.

Bloodclaw master can be decent for certain two-weapon fighters or multiattackers, and it's short (and a dip is always short :smallsmile:) so you can go back to warblade later for diamond mind and white raven.

Master of the nine is pretty good if you got some of the feats from some bonus source rather then taking them all yourself. The dual stance thing is the only way to use two stances except for straight warblade 20, though the warblade capstone is much better, and it gives you a ton of high level maneuvers if you get in at late levels. I've only ever managed to pull it off in a gestalt game, but it's worth noting that improved unarmed strike comes with unarmed swordsage 1 and that blindfight and improved initiative are warblade bonus feats.

My personal favorite of the bunch is eternal blade. I've played an elf warblade gunning for the class, but never reached level 11. It has some really neat abilities, though, and its capstone looks like it would be tremendous fun. The main thing I wasn't thrilled with was that I was trying to go into it with a two-weapon fighter, and it loses access to tiger claw, so I would have had to take a feat to get raging mongoose. But it does get diamond mind. I had the maneuver progression for that character worked out in advance, and felt pretty comfortable with it: from level 15 on, clarion call, stance of alacrity, and time stands still with an extra 9th level maneuver I wasn't sure about and a feat taken for raging mongoose. Throughout the build, I had enough maneuvers that I was able to meet all the pre-reqs for high level diamond mind, tiger claw, and white raven, with the leeway to pick up a couple useful low level things like wall of blades, iron heart surge, and mountain hammer.

I don't think letting them swap out maneuvers would be overpowered, though (actually, my DM has been toying with the idea for a while). For a full eternal blade 10 it would amount to two extra 9th level maneuvers, but you probably couldn't use them all as 9th level maneuvers anyway--good luck meeting the pre-reqs for all four of them with a warblade or crusader's maneuver's known. Master of the nine has a ton of maneuvers already, while bloodclaw master is limited to tiger claw. Really, the only potential issue I can see is RKV, but that was an issue to begin with anyway.

[navar100]

I've been thinking about mixing ToB classes for one of my games, and the mechanics of mixing two different ToB classes is somewhat mind-boggling. Thus, I have a few questions about how it would work:


If you mix, say, a warblade 9, and dip crusader at level 10. I would imagine that the 5 new maneuvers that you learn as a crusader would only be of the crusader disciplines; however, can you then ready the maneuvers that you know as a warblade as one of your "maneuvers readied", or do those have to be the five that you learn as a crusader?

You ready maneuvers separately for each class.


For that crusader level, are you considered to be initiator level 5 for devoted spirit and 10 for the other two due to your warblade levels, or would you be initiator level 5 for all three schools?


Level 5 for all three schools.

Would the crusader dip cut back your initiator level for Iron Heart and Diamond Mind (ala no Time Stands Still until level 19)?

Yes. Minimum character level 18 as long you don't go higher than Crusader 2.

Do the maneuvers you learn as a crusader count towards prerequisites for obtaining new maneuvers as the warblade? Namely, if I never learn a single white raven maneuver, and pick up a bunch of them during the crusader dip, can I then get War Master's Charge at the appropriate level?

Yes. Disciplines don't care how you know a prerequisite maneuver, just as long as you know it. Martial Study Feat maneuvers would count too, for example.


A more general question - are the prestige classes for ToB classes with maneuver advancement worth it in the end? Personally, it's not the class features that I'm worried about as much as the maneuver replacement; a warblade, for instance, can replace ruby nightmare with diamond nightmare blade and eventually grab three or four level 9 maneuvers at level 20. Since none of the ToB prestige classes have this replacement, I'm afraid that taking levels in them (even the "good" ones like Eternal Blade) will cripple a character simply on the basis of not being able to replace low-level maneuvers.
Thanks :smallsmile:.

Master of Nine is SOOOOOOOO worth it. You gain a lot of maneuvers known, but more importantly you gain a lot of maneuvers to ready. Warblades ready the fewest. Master of Nine lets you ready 5 more when you're done with it. Some Master of Nine levels have you learn two maneuvers. That's equivalent to having traded-up a maneuver. You get two higher level maneuvers but still have the low level maneuver you would have traded. Master of Nine stacks with all martial adept base classes for initiator level on a 1-for-1 basis. The BAB and HD hit is annoying for a Warblade, but it's worth the price.

[Runestar]

Even Master of Nine is barely tied with Swordsage despite an extremely heavy prerequisite list and strong fluff as being even more focused on maneuvers.

Try taking it as a warblade. A warblade20 has 7 maneuvers readied. A warblade15/MoN5 has 11 maneuvers readied.

That's why I believe the no-swapping rule was meant as an incentive for those who want to stay pure martial adept.

[Draz74]

Yeah ... Unarmed Swordsage 1 / Fighter 1 / Warblade 13 / Master of Nine 5 is an awesome build without needing any sort of houseruled maneuver swapping from the Mo9 levels.