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View Full Version : DnD Core Rulebooks, or new Essentials?



Lycan 01
2011-03-09, 09:56 AM
So I'm passing the DM torch on to a friend of mine, who wishes to start his own DnD group up at his college. He's already got a few potential players lined up, though they've never played an RPG. (I'll actually be running a few games for him and them over Spring Break so they can get a feel of DnD and decide if its something they actually enjoy.)

Now, the only real issue is deciding what he'll need to start a new group. Specifically, should he just get the Core Rulebook deal they have, with PHB1, MM1, and DMG1 all wrapped up together for about 60 bucks? Or should he take a look at these new Dungeons and Dragons Essentials books that are being released? I don't know much about the Essentials, or what they're even really for. From what I've seen and heard, though, it looks like a bit of a revamp of the core 4E stuff, like the basic classes, monsters, and rules. And with a hefty price tag...


He also said no to the cheap Start Kit, because he said if he's gonna get into DnD, he wants to just go straight for the rulebooks and stuff.


So yeah... What should he be lookin' at? :smallconfused:

Tengu_temp
2011-03-09, 10:04 AM
Essentials is aimed at newbies and nostalgic AD&D fans. Normal 4e is aimed at players who want to have a variety of options and do something different every round. Personally, I'd pick 4e, but if all of the players have never played an RPG before, I guess Essentials might work.

Show
2011-03-09, 10:14 AM
I don't mean to start up the edition wars again, but if they're strapped for cash...
why not just save their money and play the 3.5 srd for now? It might be a bit more difficult to learn, but if they have the time, I'm sure that they won't regret it.

The Rose Dragon
2011-03-09, 10:17 AM
I don't mean to start up the edition wars again, but if they're strapped for cash...
why not just save their money and play the 3.5 srd for now? It might be a bit more difficult to learn, but if they have the time, I'm sure that they won't regret it.

If they are strapped for cash, there are dozens of better free RPGs out there. I don't think they want to play something other than 4th Edition, based on the original post.

BRC
2011-03-09, 10:17 AM
I don't mean to start up the edition wars again, but if they're strapped for cash...
why not just save their money and play the 3.5 srd for now? It might be a bit more difficult to learn, but if they have the time, I'm sure that they won't regret it.
The SRD strategically leaves out a few crucial things, like WBL or how much XP it takes to level up. If you have somebody familiar with the game you can work around it easily enough, but you kind of have to know more-or-less what's in the gap before you can fill it.

RTGoodman
2011-03-09, 10:52 AM
Honestly, I'm not a HUGE fan of the Essentials line, but for a group of new players that's what I'd go with.

Also, it might be worth it if he were to pick up the Red Box. It's designed to be a stand-alone thing explicitly for folks who haven't played D&D/RPGs before. I believe it also comes with dice and other stuff that'll be useful.

From the Red Box, maybe grab the DM's Kit (which has more adventures), the Rules Compendium (because it's pretty, er, essential for playing), and a copy or two of Heroes of the Fallen Lands for your standard Cleric/Wizard/Fighter/Rogue party. (Ideally his players would buy the copies, since it's a player book.)

That should be between $70 and $80, if I remember the prices correctly, but it gets him a lot more than just three Core books. After they've run through all the adventurers and stuff with that, it's up to him and his group if they want to branch out into the 4E line of MMs and PHBs, or if they want to grab Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms and the Monster Vault (which he'll eventually want regardless, I think).

Master_Rahl22
2011-03-09, 10:54 AM
The Essentials books have some feats that even other characters will want (x Mastery, Improved Defenses, others depending on class or build) and are specifically geared toward new players. It certainly wouldn't be a waste to start with Essentials and then buy the PHBs later. The regular PHB1 was plenty easy for me to figure things out, but I've been playing 3.5 and some of the White Wolf games for years now, so I'm relatively used to learning a new ruleset. I like Tengu_temp's summary, that 4E offers more flexibility and Essentials offers easier learning.

Kurald Galain
2011-03-09, 11:15 AM
Now, the only real issue is deciding what he'll need to start a new group. Specifically, should he just get the Core Rulebook deal they have, with PHB1, MM1, and DMG1 all wrapped up together for about 60 bucks? Or should he take a look at these new Dungeons and Dragons Essentials books that are being released?
I would definitely recommend the PHB1. It has more options, builds, items, feats and other options than HOFL and HOFK combined. It's definitely more value for your money.

Erom
2011-03-09, 11:42 AM
Yeah, having within the last year run campaigns for new players in both Essentials and Vanilla 4e, I'm going to say get the core books and ignore essentials, since essentials is only in the online character builder, which is junk.

If your players are anything like mine, they'll <3 the character builder and use it as their primary reference.

Tyndmyr
2011-03-09, 11:48 AM
I don't mean to start up the edition wars again, but if they're strapped for cash...
why not just save their money and play the 3.5 srd for now? It might be a bit more difficult to learn, but if they have the time, I'm sure that they won't regret it.

This, for any free RPG. I was a poor college student once too. $60 buys a decent amount of beer.

3.5 is probably easiest to point someone toward, since it's pretty well known, but there's a huge variety of free or highly inexpensive game systems out there.

Also, you can pick up the core set off amazon for a lot less than $60, last time I checked.



The SRD strategically leaves out a few crucial things, like WBL or how much XP it takes to level up. If you have somebody familiar with the game you can work around it easily enough, but you kind of have to know more-or-less what's in the gap before you can fill it.

Nah. WBL is a guideline anyhow. You don't need to match it exactly, and if you're using any premade modules(something I highly suggest to first time DMs in almost any system), they'll give you a pretty solid feel for the treasure. Note that there are a *lot* of free modules out there, including a fair amount of official ones.

XP can be outright ignored if desired. I've seen plenty of people just say "ya'll level now" every so often.

Lycan 01
2011-03-09, 12:41 PM
I'm pretty sure he'd rather go with the actual 4e books and system than the 3.5 srd. I'll inform him of that option, though.

Thanks for the info, guys. I'll talk to him about it later. Or just link him to this thread. :smalltongue:

BRC
2011-03-09, 12:49 PM
Nah. WBL is a guideline anyhow. You don't need to match it exactly, and if you're using any premade modules(something I highly suggest to first time DMs in almost any system), they'll give you a pretty solid feel for the treasure. Note that there are a *lot* of free modules out there, including a fair amount of official ones.

XP can be outright ignored if desired. I've seen plenty of people just say "ya'll level now" every so often.

I find that one can work without the XP tables, or the WBL tables, but not both.
Personally, I have the PC's level up every other adventure, and each adventure I give them treasure equal to half the expected Wealth gain for their level.

I hadn't thought about using free modules to figure out a good guess of WBL. Which you don't need to stick to strictly, but it's nice to have some idea of how much money to give them.

Tyndmyr
2011-03-09, 12:56 PM
Right. You don't have to be strictly on WBL, but it's good to be in the general ballpark.

Actually, if you get into campaigns, a lot of these will negate the need for either one. Most campaigns are labeled with the expected level range, so you can mark it off in chunks and have them level there.

Infernalbargain
2011-03-09, 02:18 PM
Pathfinder is nearly completely open and so you could easily start that for free. Only thing that I can't seem to find on their srd is deity descriptions.

Mando Knight
2011-03-09, 02:44 PM
Probably the best deal with 4th Edition would be to purchase the Rules Compendium and a subscription to DDI. Probably also the DMGs if he's going to run the game. DMG 1 is a fantastic tool, and DMG 2 introduces a few more guidelines for things like low-magic-item or Paragon-level campaigns.

However, for showing the players how to make characters, nothing beats a Player's Handbook... though the Heroes of Fallen Lands/Forgotten Kingdoms also works. No, not even the excellent Character Builder is better, as making it by hand will force you to think about the sources of everything... nothing's more confusing than having big bonuses everywhere and not being able to justify them.

Belobog
2011-03-09, 02:50 PM
Guys, they seem to have picked out their system already. I don't suggesting others is going to be very helpful.

On topic, it really depends on the group. Essentials aren't bad, but the initial martial options in it suffer from a lack of options compared to the others. The Core Books, however, are out-dated by this point, and it might be a better idea to pick up The Rules Compendium and have someone pick up a DDI subscription, as that would be cheaper for the first few months. You could probably even find the old Character Builder and Adventure Tools around, if you don't mind looking through a torrent site.

e: woah, that got ninja'd fast. Though if you're going for any of the PHBs alone, I'd go for 2. It has a ton of good GM advice, so that your friend will have an easier time running his first few games.

Bagelz
2011-03-18, 11:57 AM
If your friends feel comfortable enough together, I'd suggest the rules compendium and a ddi subcription for the character builder instead of players handbooks, and especially instead of the essentials.

If not I'd suggest the phb1 for the simple fact that it has the basic rules in it, while the phb2 and phb3 just have additional character options.

tcrudisi
2011-03-18, 12:15 PM
It depends on what you feel the group would like best. If they want as many options as possible, go PHB1, DMG1, and MM1. If they want to ease into it, I'd go with the Essentials books. If you've got someone who is bankrolling the operation, I'd get PHB's 1, 2, and 3; DMG1; Monster Vault, MM's 1, 2, and 3; and the Heroes of the Forgotten Lands and Heroes of the Fallen Kingdoms.

I also suggest a small shopping trip for the players to buy a mini to represent their character. I'm a big fan of toy stores; my current wizard mini is a toy army man (one of the little green guys). It's cheap and fits into the 1"x1" square. Hoorah!

Erom
2011-03-18, 12:30 PM
I should probably respond to this and say I spent last weekend DMing a LOT of 4e at PAX East, most of it essentials, as a volunteer WOTC DM, and the experience really warmed me up to a lot of the essentials content. It's really quite good, even if the lack of an offline/free character builder makes it a lot less accessible. I wouldn't even necessarily say it's "basic" - just more streamlined.

So I guess I revise my "Don't do essentials." to "Either way is fine."

Fox Box Socks
2011-03-18, 12:30 PM
I like how in a thread about "which of these two 4e books should I buy", in a forum specifically about 4th Edition, some people feel the need to say things like "You should really be playing 3.5"

Erom
2011-03-18, 12:43 PM
To be fair, when most people made those replies, the special 4e subforum didn't exist yet!

Lord Ascapelion
2011-03-18, 02:08 PM
There seems to be a huge uproar against Essentials, which I really think it's best to ignore. From what I've seen, Essentials seems to be good, doing its own thing. It depends on the group, really. If they're fine with more basic stuff and aren't interested in having a ton of options to pick from, Essentials would seem like the way to go. If they're all seasoned gamers and have a richer gaming background, you may want to go with the Standard PHBs.

If they "graduate" from Essentials, the players could easily each go out and buy their own Players Hand Book with the class they're looking for, with more options.

MeeposFire
2011-03-18, 02:48 PM
Ignoring the uproar is best. Regardless of what you buy I would buy these books

1) Rules compendium
2) Monster vault
3) Dungeon masters kit

Then I would decide whether you like the PHB1 or heroes of the__. Which is best is from your personal point of view. I have all of them and for my group in the end we liked the essentials classes more, but if you go online you will find a lot of people that like the original classes. Take a look and decide they are all high quality.

Cartigan
2011-03-18, 02:48 PM
Pathfinder is nearly completely open and so you could easily start that for free. Only thing that I can't seem to find on their srd is deity descriptions.

It's not in the RD. It's over in the Golariapedia wiki.

DontEatRawHagis
2011-03-18, 03:14 PM
Price Guide Essentials:
Monster Vault - $30($20 on Amazon)
Rules Compendium - $20($12 on Amazon)
Dungeon Master Set - $40($27 on Amazon)

Grand Total = $90/$59

Price Guide for 4e:
Player's Handbook 1 - $35($23 on Amazon)
Dungeon Master Guide 1 - $35($23 on Amazon)
Monster Manual *Any One*- $35 ($23 on Amazon)

Grand Total - $105/$69

Or for 4e:
Dungeons and Dragons Core Rulebook Gift Set - $105($67 on Amazon)

Note: this is all based on Store Listed and Amazon Pricing.

Honestly I would stick with 4e just because of the amount of Customization allowed for. I like playing the PHB3 classes like Monk and Battlemind.

MeeposFire
2011-03-18, 03:25 PM
I would not buy the original Monster Manual. The monster vault is much better and it comes with extras. Ditto for the Dungeon master kit as both of those come with monster tokens, adventures, and other neat stuff.

Erom
2011-03-18, 03:31 PM
Also, the balance and design of monsters has improved over time - the MM3 and Monster Vault monsters are much more exciting and fun to play with than the MM1 monsters.

I'm actually really impressed with the Monster Vault.

MeeposFire
2011-03-18, 03:35 PM
Considering it is apparently cheaper and comes with extras the original monster manual just can't compete.

Fox Box Socks
2011-03-18, 10:13 PM
Having both, I can honestly say that Monster Vault is a better book than MM1. More interesting information, better stat blocks, and tokens for every single monster (which you will use over and over again).

Kurald Galain
2011-03-19, 09:54 AM
Price Guide Essentials:
Monster Vault - $30($20 on Amazon)
Rules Compendium - $20($12 on Amazon)
Dungeon Master Set - $40($27 on Amazon)
You forgot that to actually play 4.4, you need either the HOFL or HOFK book, or most likely both. The PHB1 contains as much information as HOFL, HOFK and the RulCom combined.

Trog
2011-03-19, 10:32 AM
Get an insider subscription and you'll have just about every monster from all the printed sources (unless something has changed in the past year since my subscription ran out that is) through their online tools. You'll be missing some of the fluff and such but really you can go without pretty easily.

The character builder online I haven't used, really, and that might also eliminate some of the need for the PHBs. Not sure though.

I've looked over the Essentials I guess. It seems to be your typical revamp of things a la TSR where they put out the same thing in a slightly different package. They eliminate some errors and some interesting info and give you new not-to-be-found-anywhere-else info to make BOTH products seem like a "must have" for gamers who are book crazy and like dumping money an the next new and shiny thing. And they've learned their lesson not to call a revamp 4.5 or what have you because that resulted in an immediate outcry. Even the name "Essentials" is picked to make you feel like you are missing out if you don't buy them.

Since I already have PHB1-3, MM1-3, and the DMG I'm basically set (DMG2 I have as well but it's honestly not essential). Oh and don't forget to download the rules updates/errata from WotC.

tldr: Personally, I'd stick with the Core, not the "Essentials."

Erom
2011-03-19, 02:11 PM
Even if you are going with Vanilla over Essentials, the Monster Vault is the one monster book you want. It has better balance, better fluff, and token for everything right in the box. Totally compatible with either version.

(For my money, if I could only have 3 books to play 4e with, they would be the Rules Compendium, the Monster Vault, and the vanilla PHB1. If I got a fourth book it would be the DMG1. If I got a fifth it would be the PHB2.)

WildPyre
2011-03-19, 04:16 PM
There's also the Pathfinder SRD out there... has a lot of information, is basicly D&D 3.75 and from what I can tell covers everything you need to play. I'm big into playing Pathfinder and all I've ever used is the SRD.

Cartigan
2011-03-19, 04:55 PM
There's also the Pathfinder SRD out there... has a lot of information, is basicly D&D 3.75 and from what I can tell covers everything you need to play. I'm big into playing Pathfinder and all I've ever used is the SRD.

True, everything in Pathfinder is open source. Though you need the Golariapedia for all the deity stuff.

But that doesn't really answer the 4e question.

Jack_Banzai
2011-03-19, 09:07 PM
There's also the Pathfinder SRD out there... has a lot of information, is basicly D&D 3.75 and from what I can tell covers everything you need to play. I'm big into playing Pathfinder and all I've ever used is the SRD.

Does this really belong in the 4e subforum? or, for that matter, a topic specifically asking if someone should choose core rulebooks or Essentials?

FWIW, my money's with Essentials. I have both, but my players prefer the classes in Essentials. They are more unique overall. The rest just feel like charts to most of my friends.

MeeposFire
2011-03-21, 07:59 PM
Does this really belong in the 4e subforum? or, for that matter, a topic specifically asking if someone should choose core rulebooks or Essentials?

FWIW, my money's with Essentials. I have both, but my players prefer the classes in Essentials. They are more unique overall. The rest just feel like charts to most of my friends.

It shows that even when you separate the forums 3e fans still feel a need to push their game on other people.

My groups go both ways some really like essentials style classes others prefer the older stuff. We have no problems using both at the same time but we have both sets of books so we did not have to choose which to buy.

Check your library. Mine has a fair selection of D&D books that you can then borrow for a time. If yours has them you can borrow them and see what you like.

WildPyre
2011-03-21, 09:49 PM
Does this really belong in the 4e subforum? or, for that matter, a topic specifically asking if someone should choose core rulebooks or Essentials?

FWIW, my money's with Essentials. I have both, but my players prefer the classes in Essentials. They are more unique overall. The rest just feel like charts to most of my friends.

It belongs in this topic since one of the issues was price, and I was offering a FREE option... so yeah, I try to help offer options and you nerd rage on me because it's not your system. Stay classy bro.

tcrudisi
2011-03-21, 10:18 PM
Now, the only real issue is deciding what he'll need to start a new group. Specifically, should he just get the Core Rulebook deal they have, with PHB1, MM1, and DMG1 all wrapped up together for about 60 bucks? Or should he take a look at these new Dungeons and Dragons Essentials books that are being released? I don't know much about the Essentials, or what they're even really for. From what I've seen and heard, though, it looks like a bit of a revamp of the core 4E stuff, like the basic classes, monsters, and rules. And with a hefty price tag...



It belongs in this topic since one of the issues was price, and I was offering a FREE option... so yeah, I try to help offer options and you nerd rage on me because it's not your system. Stay classy bro.

Except he never said that price was a problem. Instead, he seems to be worried that he will pay extra for something that is unnecessary (read as: a value issue, not a price issue). PF is a popular RPG at this point; I am sure his group has either played it or considered it.

As others have said: MM3 and Monster Vault are awesome. Don't skip out on one of those. I personally don't find the new DM book to be so awesome that I'd get it over the DMG, but hey - ymmv. The Rules Compendium is good for quick reference, but can be skipped if you get the D&D Online Compendium. The difference between the various PHB's and Essentials is a matter of taste. I find myself enjoying the PHB2 classes better (Sorc, Bard, and Barbarian, ho!) but the other books have some good stuff in it too. Actually, as long as you get the character builder, the PHB1 would probably be your best bet (just to read, not to actually build characters from).

mobdrazhar
2011-03-21, 10:20 PM
i'm not the biggest fan of essentials, however if most of the players are new then i would go with Essentials as it is easier to pick up due to less choices for them to make and they can dive straight in.

Edit: oh and regardless of whether you choose vanilla or essential i would definately say use Monster Vault over MM1