The Joker VS Spiderman

[AtlanteanTroll]

We were having another (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=177759) one of our Lunch room arguments, (except it was during play practice) and we started talking about how lame Aquaman is. One thing lead to another and Batman got brought up. I and a friend agreed that Bats was the best (NOT THE POINT OF THIS THREAD), and a different friend said Spiderman could kick his butt anyday. This got thrown around for a few minutes until I said that the Batman could beat the Joker (no one can question that (well usually)) and since Spidey couldn't Batman could take Spiderman. This went around for a few minutes before coming to a complete standstill when it was decided that it deppended on how much prep time the Joker had at his disposal.

Now it died then and there, but now I bring it to you the PlayGround to decide, with only one (as of yet) prerequisite: The Joker has as much time as to set up something as elaborate as the things with the boats in The Dark Knight.

Discuss?

EDIT: No silly 3rd ways out. PLEASE.

[No brains]

If the Joker had enough time to do something like what was done in the Dark Knight, Sam Rami would have pissed it away by packing Spider-man full of emo cheese. Joker wins. This time. >:/

[Traab]

Well hell if its dark knight and he gets the time to setup his game, then id have to say joker. I was thinking standard joker, laughing psycho with his clown dressed accomplices. In which case using that good old spidey strength, parker starts punching holes through their torsos and drags jokers beaten and web wrapped body back to arkham. That was one hell of a movie, and im ashamed to say im not certain how batman even won, because my copy of the dvd got corrupted during the whole boat thing and I couldnt watch the rest.

Spiderman has some investigative ability, but not much, I think the dark knights joker would have to lead him around by the nose just to get him placed properly.

[Selrahc]

Joker doesn't find Spiderman compelling as a foil. Physical confrontation would be over far too quickly to be interesting to him, as Spidey is super fast and super strong. But Spidey, while smart, doesn't have the investigative capabilities to play a real game of cat and mouse with the Clown Prince.
Joker commits a few minor robberies, but doesn't get into an escalating psychological showdown with the costumed foe that leads into the more widescale devastation.
Bereft of true purpose, Joker ends his own life.

[AtlanteanTroll]

Joker doesn't find Spiderman compelling as a foil. Physical confrontation would be over far too quickly to be interesting to him, as Spidey is super fast and super strong. But Spidey, while smart, doesn't have the investigative capabilities to play a real game of cat and mouse with the Clown Prince.
Joker commits a few minor robberies, but doesn't get into an escalating psychological showdown with the costumed foe that leads into the more widescale devastation.
Bereft of true purpose, Joker ends his own life.

I. What? I didn't say Batman wasn't around, I just said he had to fight Spiderman.

[The Glyphstone]

I. What? I didn't say Batman wasn't around, I just said he had to fight Spiderman.

I think you misunderstood. Batman isn't involved, and Joker's entire life and focus is centered around Batman - taunting him, opposing him, being "completed" by him. I think Selhrac is saying that Spiderman's investigative ability is far outstripped by Batman's, and since there is no Batman, Joker will find Spidey an incredibly inadequate foe and just give up in despair.

[Xefas]

I. What? I didn't say Batman wasn't around, I just said he had to fight Spiderman.

I think he's saying that the Joker would rather take his own life than be utterly controlled by an omnipotent entity that forces him to fight someone he doesn't care about to the exclusion of all others.

How does he know there's a force behind the fourth wall controlling him?

He tries to not fight Spiderman. But the thread continues onward, throwing him into progressively more contrived situations. He's aghast - he would never do such things; he doesn't give a crap about Spiderman. There is only one conclusion for him to reach, and he would rather die a clown than live as a puppet.

Therefore, Spiderman wins via suicide.

[Hadessniper]

The Joker would play around with him for a bit ultimately killing and/or majorly hurting someone he loves, then Spider-Man dons his blacks and kills the Joker by flooding his esophagus with web fluid.

[Xefas]

...kills the Joker by flooding his esophagus with web fluid.

I think I saw this on /d/ once.

[chiasaur11]

Remember when McGuiness fought the Joker?

I think we'll see some of the same stuff come into play. Parker is, fundamentally, a wiseass. The Joker loves fighting Batman because he can't break him down, but he's fun to fight. He takes the Joker seriously.

Parker wouldn't. He'd mock. He'd belittle. And the Joker would lose because, for all his talk of chaos and the big joke, he cares too much about his dignity to be able to ignore that.

Also, although he isn't at all likely to do it, Parker's code against killing is a good deal less firm than Wayne's. If the Joker shoves to hard? Unless someone interferes big time, the clown will have his spine snapped.

Oh, sure. Pete will feel guilty. He'll mope and cry and need a pep talk from Captain America or something to return to point productive member of society, but the Joker dies.

Also, Brave and the Bold Aquaman rules.

[Hadessniper]

I think I saw this on /d/ once.

It's from the Back in Black arc right after Kingpin has Aunt May shot. Peter (http://jcbaggee.files.wordpress.com/2007/09/badass.jpg) goes to the prison where the Kingpin is and beats him to within an inch of his life then threatens to fill his lungs with web fluid if he ever goes after anyone is his life again.

[Traab]

On the other hand, it would be WAY easier to mess with spidermans head than with batmans. Its all about relative focus. Batman is more about stopping the bad guys. Spiderman is more about protecting the innocent. I think the joker would enjoy breaking spidermans MIND with the various tough choices and can only save one type scenarios, then would finish him off and go hunt for a more worthy adversary. In a direct conflict, spiderman would shatter joker easily. but from the mind game angle, spiderman would be broken in short order. The guilt of all the people he couldnt save would eat him alive.

*EDIT* Even making spidey go black suit on him would count as a victory in jokers mind. After all, thats a big part of what the dark knights joker was about right? Seeing if he can push batman over the edge. I think he would count it a victory if he could torment peter so badly that he goes full punisher mode on the world in general.

[Hadessniper]

*EDIT* Even making spidey go black suit on him would count as a victory in jokers mind. After all, thats a big part of what the dark knights joker was about right? Seeing if he can push batman over the edge. I think he would count it a victory if he could torment peter so badly that he goes full punisher mode on the world in general.

Whether the Joker considers it a moral victory or not is sort of beside the point when you consider the context of OP's original argument.

[Giggling Ghast]

Spider-Man has dealt with more than his fair share of murderous lunatics, a few of which were personally fixated on him and who were determined to wound Peter in the most malicious way possible. They've threatened cities and even the entire world. They've also had the benefit of having super powers that matched his own.

Don't discount Spidey's resourcefulness.

[ThePhantasm]

Remember when McGuiness fought the Joker?


Depends on which Joker. The Joker McGuiness fought would def. lose to Spiderman. Heath's Joker? The Spiderman from the Raimi movies probably wouldn't have the emotional strength to win the day. And let's face it, Spidey's enemies are fairly straightforward, whereas Joker thrives on the unexpected.

[Geno9999]

Remember when McGuiness fought the Joker?...blahblahblah...

I agree with you 100%.

Though, for those of you who keep insisting that Sam Rami Spidey would lose simply because he's mopey sort of fails when everyone can agree that Spider-Man 3 was horrible and yet 2 was one of the best.

[The Big Dice]

The thing is, Peter has faced guys like Harry Osborne. His best friend turned murdering psychopath. A man who wanted to take away everything Spider-Man had before killing him. He's faced Venom, a complete maniac who is bigger and stronger than him, and who knows all his secrets. What has the Joker got to bring to the table that those two don't?

I'm sure the Joker will find it hilarious when his death traps are beaten by Spider Sense. And when his mouth is filled with webbing while Peter tells him to shut up. With a wisecrack.

Sure, Peter isn't the detective or inventor that Bruce is. But a guy who can hack a system built by Tony Stark has got some moves. And he's got a Spider Sense that comes in real handy for defusing bombs and so on.

It would be a fun comic to read, but I don't think the Joker could go the distance against Peter.

Now, Bats vs Doc Ock could be interesting.

[Forum Explorer]

Bats could beat Doc Ock too easily. A better fight would be the Joker vs Doc Ock

[Zaydos]

Raimi's Spidey? He'd lose.

Comic Spidey? Now he'd do better. He's dealt with schemers; the original Green Goblin had money, power, and time and was a planner who in the beginning I will admit used Spider-Man to take out his competition as head honcho of crime (this was in Issue #13 or 14 I think, so way back). That said it would still be an interesting confrontation but I don't think the Joker could even force black suit on early comics Spider-Man.

[Shyftir]

Interesting parallels.

Spidey has a lighthearted attitude.
Goblin is a cackling meglo-maniac.

Bats is grim.
Joker is a cackling maniac of chaotic genius.


In Spidey, we have a chaotic-good science nerd with Powers. (and some gadgets)
In Bats, we have a lawful good master detective with gadgets.

In Goblin, we have a lawful evil mastermind with minor Powers and gadgets.
In Joker, we have a chaotic evil mastermind with gadgets and some henchmen.

Goblin and Bats are both rich intelligent and physically capable.
Spidey and Joker are both wise-crackers and pretty good at making useful gadgets themselves.

What we have here is basically a bunch of Gadgeteers!
One has been mutated into more ability (Spidey).
Another is on super-steroids (Goblin).
They make obvious foils.

One is a ninja with an honorable streak and his own rules(Bats).
Another is a cutthroat who breaks all the rules even his own (Joker).
Again we have obvious foils.

Spidey vs. Joker ends up with Spidey killing him and feeling bad about it, while Joker feels that he's won, but Spidey gets over it when he remembers just how evil Joker really is.

Bats vs. Goblin ends up with Norman Osbourne's "good" name ruined and Goblin getting psychiatric help. But unfortunately Bats' cover is blown too. Unless of course Goblin can blackmail Bats into letting him go or he'll blow Bats' cover.

That's my take.

[Zaydos]

Why does everyone assume that the Joker could get Spider-Man to kill? The Green Goblin has only gotten Spider-Man to try and kill him once and that was at the end of the Clone Saga. The Joker even given Dark Knight level time span doesn't have the years to pull that one off.

[Mewtarthio]

Why does everyone assume that the Joker could get Spider-Man to kill? The Green Goblin has only gotten Spider-Man to try and kill him once and that was at the end of the Clone Saga.

There was also that time when he killed Gwen Stacy. Sure, Peter managed to stop himself from finishing the job at the last second, but he still beat a guy with super-SCIENCE serum to within an inch of his life before snapping out of that homicidal rage. Joker might not be able to survive that kind of beat down, particularly if he thinks it'd be funny if he died.

Either way, though, I'm not sure he could apply enough emotional pressure to make Spidey snap. Peter's got an angsty reputation, but only because his life is one that would push the average man into either depression or Frank Castle Vengeance Mode. He's dealt with the loss of loved ones. Heck, he's lived through Aunt May's death multiple times (lousy retcons). That Gwen Stacy incident up there? There's a good chance that would have been the death of his wife, if only his proposal plans hadn't been derailed when he accidentally killed her father. Pre-MJ, his life was a never-ending series of tragic backstories all strung together.

[chiasaur11]

Well, he has killed.

On accident, sure, but he punched someone so hard she died.

[Dr.Epic]

If the Joker had enough time to do something like what was done in the Dark Knight, Sam Rami would have pissed it away by packing Spider-man full of emo cheese. Joker wins. This time. >:/

Spider-Man could ask Bonesaw for help.:smallwink:

[SnowballMan]

Spider-Man could ask Bonesaw for help.:smallwink:
But is Bonesaw prepared to help?
Is Bonesaw in fact, ready?


Well, he has killed.

On accident, sure, but he punched someone so hard she died.
Wasn't an accident. She set him up perfectly.

And if you want to see how a face off with the Joker and Spider-Man would go down, you might want to take a look at this. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHXeg7GhVbc&feature=channel_video_title)

Edit : Fixed link... sorry.

[Jeivar]

Interesting that this should come up, because I've been thinking of starting a thread about how sick I am of Popularity Power. Why do fans and quite a lot of writers insist that certain characters are or should be invincible? Batman (yes I know this isn't a Batman thread but I'm using him as an example) is an athlete and martial artist and master detective with a lot of expensive gadgets. He's very good in the natural setting for his mythos: As an urban vigilante battling street crime and colorful psychos. I dislike him being in the Justice League and going to space and fighting Superman villains and whatnot. Aside from the fact that only Popularity Power makes him a contender in those situations, it does beg the question of why he has his hands full with Two-Face one day but fights doomsday threats the next.

Yes, Batman has way more cool-points than Spider-Man and has better resources and is certainly a better detective and I like him, but Spidey is INHUMANLY strong and fast and agile and durable and perceptive. Spidey would totally smoke him in any "realistic" scenario. And while Spidey is far more relatable and human and interesting than Superman, Superman would kick his ass without trying. And Dr. Manhattan would kill the big blue boyscout with a handwave. Popularity doesn't enter into it.

Same way with the Joker. Yes, he's a hell of a villain for his setting and is definitely far more interesting than, say, the Sandman or the Vulture, and he's deviously intelligent and definitely a classic. But he's just a crazy, clever human with novelty weapons and a bunch of street thugs at his disposal. He might be able to do a lot of collateral damage before Spider-Man catches up with him, but in a fight he has no way of countering Spidey's strength, speed, mobility, spider-sense and webbing. It'd be over in seconds, Joker and his thugs would be hanging upside down in webs and Spidey would tousle his hair and make fun of him.

Anyway, that's my take on Joker VS Spider-Man. I'll now wait for the responses of "No! Batman would take Spidey because he's totally cool and wears a cape and prep time and something something!"

[chiasaur11]

Well, Batman I could see managing to accomplish a goal in the face of Parker defying him.

Pete can be impulsive, and Bats is good at keeping people busy.

But it comes to a straight up fight, assuming even prep time, the Spider wins.

Both tech up for tough fights. Only one can toss helicopters without tech.

[The Glyphstone]

Is he allowed to spend prep time on formulating Bat-Spider-Repellent Spray?

[Jeivar]

And if you want to see how a face off with the Joker and Spider-Man would go down, you might want to take a look at this. ("")

Er, that link doesn't work.

[shadow_archmagi]

Is he allowed to spend prep time on formulating Bat-Spider-Repellent Spray?

Yes, but Parker will counter with Spider-Bat-Repellent Spray.


Er, that link doesn't work.

In fact, if you look at the URL, he seems to have attempted to link to the post he quoted.

[The Glyphstone]

Yes, but Parker will counter with Spider-Bat-Repellent Spray.



In fact, if you look at the URL, he seems to have attempted to link to the post he quoted.

Bats has more money though, so by the time they work up to the Bat-Spider-Bat-Spider-Bat-Spider-Repellent-Repellent-Repellent-Repellent-Repellent-Repellent-Repellent Spray, Peter will be bankrupt.

[Zaydos]

If this is becoming Spider-Man versus Batman.

Spidey wins the first encounter.

Batman makes an anti-Spidey weapon and wins the 2nd.

Spidey makes a counter to it and some special bat-catching webbing. Wins round 3.

Batman makes a gadget to counter the special webbing, and a gadget to counter spidey's batman countering gadget. Wins round 4.

This continues to infinity if Batman keeps making a single gadget to win, if he has to make a chain of gadgets used in order Spidey would eventually win out for multiple in a row. That's a BIG IF, though.

Spidey versus the Joker, though? No worse than the Green Goblin... pretty much the Green Goblin without powers.

The Joker doesn't have the powers to fight Spidey on even ground and find out his identity. The Joker loses without being able to get under his skin.

[The Big Dice]

Bats has more money though, so by the time they work up to the Bat-Spider-Bat-Spider-Bat-Spider-Repellent-Repellent-Repellent-Repellent-Repellent-Repellent-Repellent Spray, Peter will be bankrupt.

To be fair, Peter couldn't afford Bruce's shoes. Let alone his repellent repelling repellent.

[chiasaur11]

Of course, Spider-Man is working for the Future Foundation right about now, which should change the math.

Especially since, as clever as Pete and Bruce are, Richards builds better stuff out of toasters at yard sales.

[shadow_archmagi]

Especially since, as clever as Pete and Bruce are, Richards builds better stuff out of toasters at yard sales.

Richards is insane.

Anyone who goes too close to Richards also goes insane.

EXHIBIT A:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_gu4pfFeLQ

[No brains]

Spidey versus the Joker, though? No worse than the Green Goblin... pretty much the Green Goblin without powers.

The Joker doesn't have the powers to fight Spidey on even ground and find out his identity. The Joker loses without being able to get under his skin.

That's a really good point. The Joker, particularly TDK Joker doesn't have the ability to find out exactly who Batman is, so he can't really hit Spidey's mind. Unless he has noticed that Spiderman is particularly fond of rescuing people Parker likes, IF Parker publicly rescues them more often, he can still only attack Spider-man's contacts, which is a much tougher area than Parker's contacts.

[The Glyphstone]

Richards is insane.

Anyone who goes too close to Richards also goes insane.

EXHIBIT A:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_gu4pfFeLQ

Waaait, Herbie The Robot? Wut.

[Zaydos]

Waaait, Herbie The Robot? Wut.

Herbie the Robot did not happen and did not exist. He is not the droid you're looking for, that one is on an Arrakis imitation. It would be best for you to move along.

[chiasaur11]

Waaait, Herbie The Robot? Wut.

Look.

Either Reed Richards is building robots, or he's building machines that can destroy the universe.

Besides, Herbie is a good babysitter. (http://www.sumerak.com/franklin.shtml)

Real answer? Long story. Full of heartache and sighs. Legal issues.

[SmartAlec]

Waaait, Herbie The Robot? Wut.

The Human Torch was 'misplaced'. They were afraid kids would set themselves on fire.

[Green-Shirt Q]

I believe there's a comic that actually covers this. It's a crossover between Batman and Spider-man, fighting Joker and Green Goblin together.

I can't say how it turned out, or if Spidey fought Joker one-on-one. I've only read the sequel, where it briefly mentions it and the two of them fight Ra's Al Ghul and Kingpin.

[Sotharsyl]

Spider-Man wins,he-ll just remarry contact Mephisto and sell that marriage to him in exchange for turning the Joker sane and making him good.:smallwink:

But seriously Batman is great opponent for the Joker because he plays by a set of rules which he won't ever brake,no matter what the Joker does Bats won't kill him and he won't call for help from somebody not in the Bat-Family,obviously the last one doesn't apply if for example the Joker wants a crossover and goes skinny dipping on the beaches of Paradise Island.

Spidey has one rule "with great power etc",he and his friends have a lot of power and Joker generates a lot of responsibility if Joker's goes to far Spidey can just tie him up and go to Reed Richards and ask him or a portal to uninhabited M-class planet and go the "Australia" route.

I know that there was a DC crossover along these lines but they also sent a bunch of mad scientists,the Joker alone won't come back.

But you say that a determined writer will bring him back,that would only work if the conflict between J and S is interesting which it wont there is a reason why all of Spidey's best villains are metahumans the threat they pose resonates extremely well with Spidey's own credo.

[TheEmerged]

Want to know how a Spiderman/Joker fight would end? Rent The "Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker" movie if you don't own it already. Spiderman is an *expert* at this kind of psychological attack. Joker wouldn't stand a chance. That's not unusual really; Lex Luthor wouldn't last as a Batman villain, for example.

Now, as for Aquaman stinking... spoilered for off-topicness.

He ought to sue The SuperFriends for defamation :smallyuk: I'm pretty sure I've posted my Aquaman Movie Trailer comment on these boards before.

My personal favorite Aquaman analogy? Drop Aquaman unprepared in Gotham's most dangerous area and he'd be okay. Drop Batman uprepared in Aquaman's territory and...

[Grey Paladin]

Spiderman beat Firelord once. Just saying. :smalltongue:

[Lord Loss]

Nolan-verse Joker would utterly destroy Spiderman. Remember how Batman almost turned himself in to stop Joker? Spider Man doesn't have half Batman's willpower and isn't nearly as smart as the Joker. Assuming Joker played to win, he would wreck Spider-Man easily.

[Traab]

Yeah joker wouldnt allow himself to go face to face with spiderman, so all his super powers wouldnt factor in much. Instead Joker would turn all of the city into a giant game of SAW. Death trap after death trap where spider has to choose who lives and who dies. All the while joker is setting him up so the world gets to see spiderman letting innocent people die, thus fueling the daily bugle crap fest. Now, if Joker was able to figure out who he is, (I swear every villain in the movies has known his identity eventually) then he would kick it up another notch with a nice mj/aunt may choice of doom. Then, just to REALLY mess with his head, the one he chooses to save dies. Now he has to look in the face of the person he was willing to sacrifice from then on while dealing with the fact that the person he wanted to save most is dead. Spiderman ends up taking his own life. Or going on a murderous rampage trying to track down and kill the joker. Either way, spiderman is ruined.

[Lord Loss]

As Traab said (and I forgot to mention) Superpowers have nearly no effect against Joker. It would be mostly a battle of the wits, and Spiderman is just some kid. Some kid with special powers who's seen a lot of tough things, but still just some kid.

[chiasaur11]

Nolan-verse Joker would utterly destroy Spiderman. Remember how Batman almost turned himself in to stop Joker? Spider Man doesn't have half Batman's willpower and isn't nearly as smart as the Joker. Assuming Joker played to win, he would wreck Spider-Man easily.

Right.

Have you bothered to look at Parker's career? Life dumps on the man as a hobby. Enough he's quit more than once.

You know what happens?

To quote chumbawamba, "I get knocked down, but I get up again, ain't never gonna keep me down". He constantly is reminded that he's got a gift, comes with a price. Great power, great responsibility. Which means, no matter what happens, he's gotta keep fighting.

And not as smart? Really?

Parker's a genius. Like, Reed Richards is really impressed by some of his work genius. If he hadn't been bit by that spider, he'd probably be one of the most brilliant scientists in the Marvel universe.

Joker's a two bit thug with some decent plans. Somehow, I doubt he could design an obscenely versatile adhesive with strength well in excess of steel using the equipment in a high-school chem lab.

Just some kid for a man who has, quite literally, been through hell and saved the universe seems a bit inaccurate.

[Mewtarthio]

Nolan-verse Joker would utterly destroy Spiderman. Remember how Batman almost turned himself in to stop Joker? Spider Man doesn't have half Batman's willpower and isn't nearly as smart as the Joker. Assuming Joker played to win, he would wreck Spider-Man easily.

Bear in mind, though, that Nolan-verse Joker is up against Nolan-verse Batman. Nolan-verse Batman is heavily invested in the idea that Gotham can be redeemed. He's not fighting to save Gotham so much as he's fighting to help Gotham save itself. Joker's motivation is simply to prove that people are inherently evil and irredeemable (or, more accurately, to have a bit of fun by making everyone fight each other to the death, but it comes out to the same thing). Hence, Nolan-verse Joker is the perfect threat to Nolan-verse Batman's ideals.

Spidey, on the other hand, is all about personal responsibility. Joker's still a threat to him, but he's not a foil like he is to Batman. It's pretty tough to break a guy whose motivation is "I have power, so it's my job to use it to protect everyone else." Personal problems have done that pretty effectively in the past, but Nolan-verse Joker lacks the subtlety to manipulate Peter in that manner. Plus, once a supervillain shows up on the scene, Peter gets reminded of his responsibilities and puts the suit right back on.

Side note: Why is everyone assuming that the Joker will link Spiderman and Peter Parker? This is the Joker from TDK we're talking about, who not only failed to learn Batman's true identity but also tried to kill a guy who was about to reveal it because he thought that'd spoil the fun.

(Also: Nolan-verse Batman doesn't have Doctor Strange on his contacts list)

[Surrealistik]

[I]Joker's a two bit thug with some decent plans. Somehow, I doubt he could design an obscenely versatile adhesive with strength well in excess of steel using the equipment in a high-school chem lab.

Actually from what I understand, the Joker has a genius level intellect, and is particularly skilled at chemistry; I wouldn't put it past him.

[Lord Loss]

I assumed we were talking about the Peter from the movies. I haven't actually read the comics. However, I stand by the fact that movie-verse Peter wouldn't be able to cope. As willful as he may be, he's not very willful compared to Batman. And as much intelligence as he has when it comes to engineering and things like that, I haven't seen him put any brialliant plans into effect. And he'd need them to track down joker. No one knows who Joker is, he has many, many contacts, he's able to put great heroes and large cities into a state of utter despiar. "Some decent plans" have terrorized Gotham and managed to outsmart large police departments and batman himself. Sure, you won't see Joker acing his chemistry exam, but he's nothing short of a criminal mastermind. He's great at manipulating people and he doesn't give a darn what happens to him. As it was put in the movie, he's an unstoppable force.

Spiderman's Perks:

-Acrobatics
-Spidey-Powers
-Scientific Skill

None of which matter against Joker. His superpowers don't do Jack squat if he can't find the Joker and neither do his acrobatics. he doesn't have a great many allies and his scientific skill is trivial in this scenario.

EDIT: I forgot to mention this:

The Joker's Perks

-Great deal of influence
-He won't stop until he's dead
-Genius
-No one knows his identity, he's relatively untraceable
- He knows how to manipulate, spindle and break people, making them give up, turning them against their ideals, etc.

[Traab]

Ok, lets clarify here what the goal is for both sides. Does joker want spiderman dead? Or does he want to break him? Both are possible, but dead might be harder to arrange. Id assume the goal is to catch joker and turn him in?

[Mewtarthio]

-Great deal of influence
-He won't stop until he's dead
-Genius
-No one knows his identity, he's relatively untraceable
- He knows how to manipulate, spindle and break people, making them give up, turning them against their ideals, etc.

Secret identity aside (and I'd argue the Joker has no secret identity: He simply is the Joker), that's actually a pretty apt description of Norman Osborne. And it's not like the identity's a handicap in his case: Spidey's never tried to use Norman's true identity against him, and it's even proven a strength for the Green Goblin in that Spidey always has an aversion to seriously hurting him (up until Gwen's death, that is). Osborne also has super strength and resilience on his side. Plus a personal hover-board that shoots missiles.

Pretty much your entire argument boils down to "Peter Parker lacks the emotional endurance of Batman." Thing is, comic book Peter Parker goes through a lot and keeps on going, and nothing indicates that Raimi Spiderman is any weaker.

[boj0]

Is this taking place in New York, or Gotham?
Because if this is in New York, Joker has no chance; the police force is no where near as corrupt, the fact that 20+ other superheroes live there (Parker probably lives within 15 minutes of Daredevil, HFH, or the Fantastic Four), not to mention that if this is TDK Joker who messes with mobsters for kicks, he gets to deal with the Kingpin who'll just get the Sinister Six or just about any B-list villain to take him out (not even getting into the Punisher who'll just kill him on sight). In this case Spider-man doesn't even need to beat the Joker, the world does it for him.

Still, Spider-man is a serious contender in the superhero world, crazy maniacs who play mind games wouldn't stop him at all, Green Goblin killed his unborn child and Parker didn't break down, just blew Osborne up, Kingpin killed his Aunt and as previous posters have said, Parker laid down the law. You can try to have him run around dealing with all your elaborate schemes and such, but Spider-man is still insanely intelligent. Where as Batman is highly knowlegable (and still very bright), Peter Parker is a genius who regularly beats foes by out-thinking them, his strength is thinking on his feet. His strength comes from thinking outside the box, which is how he beats people like Reed and Stark when they tried to fight him during Civil War.

Speaking of tech, most everything that Joker uses as a weapon or toy Green Goblin has a superior version of (excluding Joker Gas...but Osborne just uses nanites :smallamused: ). Green Goblin has Joker beat on all fronts when it comes to tech (he makes fun of Stark's work for crying out loud), and Spider-man beats the Goblin.

You say that Spider-man can't find Joker? Maybe, unless he gets one of his trackers on him, or asks Wolverine to hunt him. Finding a bad guy isn't really new for Parker either, between tracking devices, shadowing mooks, or just beating thugs until he finds where he is.

tl;dr Spider-man isn't really challenged by the Joker anymore than his other rogues.

[chiasaur11]

Oh, Spider-Trackers!

Forgot all about those. Yeah, that'll be an edge. Tiny, near-impossible to detect, and they give Parker a psychic link to ensure he can find you no matter where you go. Joker shows up once, and even if he wins Pete can track him.

[Zaydos]

I assumed we were talking about the Peter from the movies. I haven't actually read the comics. However, I stand by the fact that movie-verse Peter wouldn't be able to cope.

Yeah movie Spidey couldn't cope, I don't think anyone has said he could (if you read the first few posts in Spidey's favor they say Raimi Spidey loses). Comic Spidey dealt with this kind of villain in the early days.

[Dvandemon]

Clarify, which Joker are we talking about? I know you said he has time to prepare but is it the one from the Dark Knight movies?

[Traab]

Clarify, which Joker are we talking about? I know you said he has time to prepare but is it the one from the Dark Knight movies?

Its the dark knight joker, but what I still want to know is, what is the goal for each person? Is this a fight to the death? Is spidey going for the capture while joker wants the kill? Is joker going for the mind break?

[Hadessniper]

I assumed we were talking about the Peter from the movies. I haven't actually read the comics. However, I stand by the fact that movie-verse Peter wouldn't be able to cope.


Movie Spider-Man is literally the only version who you could argue wouldn't be able to cope. Every other major iteration of the character only grows more resolved when confronted with something like the Joker. The Joker might be able to break the poorly written Raimiverse Spidey, with literally any other version the best outcome the Joker could hope for is forcing Spider-Man to kill him. Which is a type of victory I guess, I mean Peter would feel bad for a while, maybe contemplate hanging up the webs, but within a month he would be reminded that with great power comes great responsibility and be back fighting the good fight with just a little more emotional baggage to fuel him.

The reason I think the Joker makes a good villain for Batman is that Bats is a meticulous planer and is at his worst when forced to play on the fly and the Joker is pure chaos forcing him to do just that. This doesn't work with Spider-Man as he is a reactionary hero. He works on the fly and is often at his best when dealing with with whatever happens to come his way.

[Demons_eye]

Now it died then and there, but now I bring it to you the PlayGround to decide, with only one (as of yet) prerequisite: The Joker has as much time as to set up something as elaborate as the things with the boats in The Dark Knight.



Well as they started talking about Aqua-Man and he said the Joker has enough time to set things up like the boats in Dark Knight I don't understand why people are comparing the movies?

[Sotharsyl]

As Traab said (and I forgot to mention) Superpowers have nearly no effect against Joker. It would be mostly a battle of the wits, and Spiderman is just some kid. Some kid with special powers who's seen a lot of tough things, but still just some kid.

http://www.virtualshackles.com/78
Ok this is a webcomic and it's supposed to be a joke,but you can't tell me that this isn't the reason a popular villain like the Joker isn't used more in the DC Universe,yes he could use for example kriptonite against Supes but he's been threatened with the stuff for his whole career and he's still alive.

[Forum Explorer]

doesn't Batman go up against people with powers every once in a while? Such as Clayface?

[chiasaur11]

doesn't Batman go up against people with powers every once in a while? Such as Clayface?

Or his JLA work, yeah.

It feels touch and go while based on extensive planning most of the time. Neutralizing the edge before anything else.

The Joker wins against super-types sometimes, but it's always through the most blatant writer cheating imaginable. You know, guys with massive psychic powers sitting there doing nothing, Gorillas being physically weaker than kittens, that kind of thing.

[Jeivar]

The Joker wins against super-types sometimes, but it's always through the most blatant writer cheating imaginable. You know, guys with massive psychic powers sitting there doing nothing, Gorillas being physically weaker than kittens, that kind of thing.

Like I said: Popularity Power. It sucks.

[Dienekes]

As always, when this comes up, which Joker?

It depends on the writer how good he actually is. TDK Joker just wants to cause chaos first and latches onto beating Batman second. His plans are insane and complex but really are about blowing stuff up to cause fear and panic throughout society.

The real question here is does Spiderman win before Joker breaks New York or after? The way I see it played out, Joker does starts killing people in a high profile manner, it may take time a bit more time than it took Batman but Spidey will find and beat the tar out of him. Whether Joker breaks NY or not really depends on if Parker happens to be at a photo shoot that Joker targets for one reason or another. I'll let the laws of drama dictate here and say that after a few kills they meet.

Personally I think during his run of chaos Joker would be more successful than he was during TDK simply because I think he'd know he was physically outmatched and therefore would use sneakier methods of destruction. But they inevitably meet and Joker gets trounced, it's not even a fight really. Joker then sets off a chain of events to get out of jail in the most destructive manner impossible, maybe kills a few people he thinks are close to Spiderman (I'm betting he tries to kill Parker and co since Parker is linked to Spiderman via photographs), Spiderman gets pissed and in the awkward moment between Joker trying to kill Peter and realizing Peter is Spiderman, Joker gets the tar beaten out of him again. And goes to jail smiling about how the city is now in political turmoil and Spiderman ultimately lost. Spiderman tells him to shut up and sprays his mouth shut, and goes out to try and salvage what's left of New York.

[cdstephens]

Batman can beat anyone. Joker can handle the Batman. I'll say Spiderman will have a hard time with the Joker, it'd be interesting. I feel as if since Spiderman doesn't know the Joker, he'd be extremely thrown off by his random acts of violence at the very least.

I wonder how Joker vs. Superman would go. It'd be either extremely short or pretty long depending how Joker played it.

[Traab]

If its the criminal genius joker, then he wont become directly involved until the very end. He would set all his traps up in advance so he could set them off whenever he wanted to from safety. You know that webcomic that got posted? Yeah, the whole video conference thing would likely be how joker communicates with spiderman to setup the scenarios.

"/kssssssssshhh Spidey, you there? Good. If you will look to your left, you will see two other monitors that just turned on. Notice how in one you see a school bus full of kindergarten students dangling over a vat of acid? And in the other you have a convent full of nuns tied in a single room with a rather large bomb in the middle of it. There are two cabinet doors in front of you, each one holds directions as to the location of one of these traps. The only catch is, opening the door, or otherwise getting the info for one trap, will automatically trigger the other. If you leave this room or contact anyone else, they will both trigger automatically. Have fun choosing who dies wall crawler! GYAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!"(I always loved his laugh)

Unknown to parker, his choice will be broadcast to the city. Either way, some innocents will die, and he has to choose who it is. This will give him a massive hit to his reputation. "Omg! Spiderman just let those children/nuns die!" As well as the hit to his psyche. Setup a number of these ahead of time so he basically bounces from one death trap to the other. Perhaps find a way to unmask him so the last involves aunt may and mary jane. Yeah, parker has put up with a LOT of pain and suffering in his life, but everyone has limits. Throw in some twists like I mentioned in an earlier post, where he chooses one person to live, and the joker lied, so he triggers the death of that person instead.

[cdstephens]

If its the criminal genius joker, then he wont become directly involved until the very end. He would set all his traps up in advance so he could set them off whenever he wanted to from safety. You know that webcomic that got posted? Yeah, the whole video conference thing would likely be how joker communicates with spiderman to setup the scenarios.

"/kssssssssshhh Spidey, you there? Good. If you will look to your left, you will see two other monitors that just turned on. Notice how in one you see a school bus full of kindergarten students dangling over a vat of acid? And in the other you have a convent full of nuns tied in a single room with a rather large bomb in the middle of it. There are two cabinet doors in front of you, each one holds directions as to the location of one of these traps. The only catch is, opening the door, or otherwise getting the info for one trap, will automatically trigger the other. If you leave this room or contact anyone else, they will both trigger automatically. Have fun choosing who dies wall crawler! GYAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!"(I always loved his laugh)

Unknown to parker, his choice will be broadcast to the city. Either way, some innocents will die, and he has to choose who it is. This will give him a massive hit to his reputation. "Omg! Spiderman just let those children/nuns die!" As well as the hit to his psyche. Setup a number of these ahead of time so he basically bounces from one death trap to the other. Perhaps find a way to unmask him so the last involves aunt may and mary jane. Yeah, parker has put up with a LOT of pain and suffering in his life, but everyone has limits. Throw in some twists like I mentioned in an earlier post, where he chooses one person to live, and the joker lied, so he triggers the death of that person instead.

Yeah, I'm fairly confident that Batman has gone through a lot more pain and suffering than Spiderman...he even got clones of himself to destroy themselves I think in Final Crisis or something.

[chiasaur11]

Yeah, I'm fairly confident that Batman has gone through a lot more pain and suffering than Spiderman...he even got clones of himself to destroy themselves I think in Final Crisis or something.

I dunno.

I mean, Batman hardened young. That's important. When his parents bit it, went on the whole commitment to justice bit. Sure, he's lost a lot of people since, but he frames it mentally as a war.

People die in wars, nothing you can do.

Parker is no good at hardening. Every death is a fresh wound. Parents, Uncle Ben (totally his own fault, which is a guilt burden Batman didn't have), Gwen Stacey, they all hit home hard.

And half of "Why Peter Parker's life sucks" is stuff Batman never worries about. Bad media relations. Not enough money to pay rent. Hateful boss. Dating disasters. Being a billionaire playboy prevents most of those.

Oh, and video?

Parker could probably trace it. You're treating him like Ronnie Raymond here. He's not as good a detective as Batman, but he's no slouch. Finding secret underground lairs is one of his skills.

Another thing to remember here is how Spidey's rogue's gallery normally works.

They're punks compared to him. Not because they're that bad, but because he's that good.

Heck, Harry Osborne tried that exact "You can't save them all, Spider-Man!" trick once. It turned out that, yes. He can save them all, and catch the culprit at the end of it. Because he's really smart.

And finally, ruin his reputation?

Another jovial fellow already has that covered. Jolly Jonah Jameson, EIC of one of the foremost papers in New York. Anyone decades of "Spider-Man: Threat or Menace?" can't convince probably has the sense not to blame the victim for a sadistic choice.

Only question really is if the endgame will be funny Spider-Man making the Joker flip his lid at how not seriously he's being taken, or scary Spider-Man killing the Joker. Betting on funny.

[Selrahc]

Chiasaur is dead right. Spidey is one of the most hard luck characters in the entire medium of comics. Just because he acts jolly in his spidersona doesn't mean he isn't holding a lot of pain inside. His life is an endless series of catastrophes, each one he feels intense personal guilt for, rightly or not. He has lost at various times his wife, his parents, his daughter, his surrogate parents, his best friend and his first love. The fact that he is still functional at all is testament to his strength of character. At one point in the comics, MJ died in a plane crash and he was left bankrupt and homeless on the streets. He still kept fighting.

Joker won't break Spidey psychologically.

And even with traps, Joker cannot beat Spidey in a fight. Spidey can get out of traps even better than Batman.

Spidey will win. But Joker would be able to accumulate a higher kill count than he would under Batman before Spidey finds him.

[Forum Explorer]

Do we have any examples of Joker fighting seriously or is that just impossible?

Also does the Joker get Harley?

Batman had to go to insane lengths to find the Joker in DK so I'm not sure Petey could find him. However Petey would likely take down more of the Joker's traps and save more citizens.

[Traab]

Oh, and video?

Parker could probably trace it. You're treating him like Ronnie Raymond here. He's not as good a detective as Batman, but he's no slouch. Finding secret underground lairs is one of his skills.

Another thing to remember here is how Spidey's rogue's gallery normally works.

They're punks compared to him. Not because they're that bad, but because he's that good.

Heck, Harry Osborne tried that exact "You can't save them all, Spider-Man!" trick once. It turned out that, yes. He can save them all, and catch the culprit at the end of it. Because he's really smart.

And finally, ruin his reputation?

Another jovial fellow already has that covered. Jolly Jonah Jameson, EIC of one of the foremost papers in New York. Anyone decades of "Spider-Man: Threat or Menace?" can't convince probably has the sense not to blame the victim for a sadistic choice.



1) True, thats why this is all set out ahead of time. Joker has his broadcast location. He makes his speech, watches spiderman make his choice, then moves on to the next location. Its not that hard to find a sufficient number of empty warehouses in a 50 mile radius.

2) Yeah, osbourne was a moron. He had the choice setup right in front of spiderman, this is all done through tv cameras and set wide apart. He has two cabinets. The instant you open one, the trap for the other is triggered. Try to leave without opening either door? Both are triggered. try to contact someone for help? Both are triggered.

3) Exactly, there is already a media source that would be SALIVATING at getting this kind of footage to use against spiderman. The most he could do before is randomly claim that spiderman is a menace, with nothing but deceptive pictures to "prove" it. No better than a national enquirer article really. Im sure the joker is more than skilled enough to setup the cameras and footage to put the proper spin on it. With actual footage of spiderman "causing" the deaths of innocent people, I bet the backlash would be huge.

[Dienekes]

Only question really is if the endgame will be funny Spider-Man making the Joker flip his lid at how not seriously he's being taken, or scary Spider-Man killing the Joker. Betting on funny.

Only BTAS Joker does that, most of them just laugh at their own misfortune then poison you. TDK Joker doesn't seem to have any problems being laughed at, and never flips his lid. That's part of why we need to define which version of both characters we're going for.

And unable to break Spiderman psychologically? Are you kidding? Green Goblins broken Spidey before, twice if memory serves. And if we're going by his computer hacking abilities that have never been put in the movie, then I can counter with all the idiotic crap he's pulled. Spiderman makes some hilariously stupid decisions that the Joker could rather easily exploit. Hell, if Joker manages to kill an old women Peter may sell his own soul to bring her back, or just his marriage and unborn child whatever is available I guess. And if you don't think that Joker would count that level of person sacrifice and stupidity as a win for him then we aren't talking about the same Joker here.

[Jeivar]

Only BTAS Joker does that, most of them just laugh at their own misfortune then poison you. TDK Joker doesn't seem to have any problems being laughed at, and never flips his lid.


Well it's a bit subtle, but he DOES lose his cool whenever someone calls him "freak" or "crazy." Because as far as he's concerned, he's perfectly normal and everyone else is a hypocrite. So I could easily see him blowing his top and doing something stupid if Spidey mocks him brutally enough.

[chiasaur11]

1) True, thats why this is all set out ahead of time. Joker has his broadcast location. He makes his speech, watches spiderman make his choice, then moves on to the next location. Its not that hard to find a sufficient number of empty warehouses in a 50 mile radius.

2) Yeah, osbourne was a moron. He had the choice setup right in front of spiderman, this is all done through tv cameras and set wide apart. He has two cabinets. The instant you open one, the trap for the other is triggered. Try to leave without opening either door? Both are triggered. try to contact someone for help? Both are triggered.

3) Exactly, there is already a media source that would be SALIVATING at getting this kind of footage to use against spiderman. The most he could do before is randomly claim that spiderman is a menace, with nothing but deceptive pictures to "prove" it. No better than a national enquirer article really. Im sure the joker is more than skilled enough to setup the cameras and footage to put the proper spin on it. With actual footage of spiderman "causing" the deaths of innocent people, I bet the backlash would be huge.

1) Spider-Man's decent at figuring out patterns. Good at it, even. And setting up deathtrap after deathtrap with busloads of kidnapped nuns isn't something you can do by magic. It takes time, effort, and connections, all of which are traceable.

2) I said Harry Osborne. Issue 137. Close circuit TV, sets up a method so Parker can't save everyone he loves, fails utterly. Not identical, but then the scenario you set up is basically wizardry, so...

3) You managed to miss the point entirely there. Backlash is normally huge. People have hated Spider-Man for the majority of his career, thought he was a murderer and a soviet spy, all that. He's had his own Aunt, girlfriend, and boss all loath Spider-Man with every fiber of their beings, and he kept at it. Your scenario has nothing new on the PR front.

[cdstephens]

Well it's a bit subtle, but he DOES lose his cool whenever someone calls him "freak" or "crazy." Because as far as he's concerned, he's perfectly normal and everyone else is a hypocrite. So I could easily see him blowing his top and doing something stupid if Spidey mocks him brutally enough.

Like in Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker? Terry basically laughs at the guy and then Joker goes ape****.

[ThePhantasm]

Interesting that this should come up, because I've been thinking of starting a thread about how sick I am of Popularity Power. Why do fans and quite a lot of writers insist that certain characters are or should be invincible? Batman (yes I know this isn't a Batman thread but I'm using him as an example) is an athlete and martial artist and master detective with a lot of expensive gadgets. He's very good in the natural setting for his mythos: As an urban vigilante battling street crime and colorful psychos. I dislike him being in the Justice League and going to space and fighting Superman villains and whatnot. Aside from the fact that only Popularity Power makes him a contender in those situations, it does beg the question of why he has his hands full with Two-Face one day but fights doomsday threats the next.

Yes, Batman has way more cool-points than Spider-Man and has better resources and is certainly a better detective and I like him, but Spidey is INHUMANLY strong and fast and agile and durable and perceptive. Spidey would totally smoke him in any "realistic" scenario. And while Spidey is far more relatable and human and interesting than Superman, Superman would kick his ass without trying. And Dr. Manhattan would kill the big blue boyscout with a handwave. Popularity doesn't enter into it.

Same way with the Joker. Yes, he's a hell of a villain for his setting and is definitely far more interesting than, say, the Sandman or the Vulture, and he's deviously intelligent and definitely a classic. But he's just a crazy, clever human with novelty weapons and a bunch of street thugs at his disposal. He might be able to do a lot of collateral damage before Spider-Man catches up with him, but in a fight he has no way of countering Spidey's strength, speed, mobility, spider-sense and webbing. It'd be over in seconds, Joker and his thugs would be hanging upside down in webs and Spidey would tousle his hair and make fun of him.

Anyway, that's my take on Joker VS Spider-Man. I'll now wait for the responses of "No! Batman would take Spidey because he's totally cool and wears a cape and prep time and something something!"

You'll be hard pressed to prove that

A) any "invincibility" comes from their popularity rather than vice versa
and
B) that this invincibility exists at all.

Batman isn't undefeatable. He gets beaten by the bad guys plenty of times. But he rarely gets beaten twice. The second time, he is prepared. And he has devoted his entire life to being prepared.

And the Joker is far from invincible. He gets beaten all the time.

Now I agree with you that these vs threads often end up being popularity contests. But that is just the way it is. Vs threads by nature are hypothetical. Even real battles can't be predicted - I mean, come on, there are all sorts of contingencies, unforseen events, and other factors (settings, emotions, strategies, etc.). Its just all in good fun discussion. Let the people who think Batman is "bad-ass" (I'm one of them) think that. What's the harm?

Good grief, don't get so bent out of shape.

[Dienekes]

Well it's a bit subtle, but he DOES lose his cool whenever someone calls him "freak" or "crazy." Because as far as he's concerned, he's perfectly normal and everyone else is a hypocrite. So I could easily see him blowing his top and doing something stupid if Spidey mocks him brutally enough.

Getting annoyed and losing his cool are a bit different. Sure he denies that he's obviously insane, but he shows no signs of being any more violent or deranged than he already is. Contrast with BTAS Joker, where mocking him makes him either a bumbling sap or out of control loony such as Return of the Joker.

[VanBuren]

Getting annoyed and losing his cool are a bit different. Sure he denies that he's obviously insane, but he shows no signs of being any more violent or deranged than he already is. Contrast with BTAS Joker, where mocking him makes him either a bumbling sap or out of control loony such as Return of the Joker.

That's not entirely true. He got noticeable more aggressive when Rachel called him out at Bruce's party.

[chiasaur11]

That's not entirely true. He got noticeable more aggressive when Rachel called him out at Bruce's party.

And that's with an amateur. Peter Parker is one of the all time experts at ticking people off. World record holder.

[Ravens_cry]

Getting annoyed and losing his cool are a bit different. Sure he denies that he's obviously insane, but he shows no signs of being any more violent or deranged than he already is. Contrast with BTAS Joker, where mocking him makes him either a bumbling sap or out of control loony such as Return of the Joker.
Ever watch the episode "Joker's Favour"? It shows a two-bit Joe Average nobody who Joker pushed too far get a most excellent revenge on the Clown Prince of Crime.
Joker looked like he practically wet himself.

[Dienekes]

Ever watch the episode "Joker's Favour"? It shows a two-bit Joe Average nobody who Joker pushed too far get a most excellent revenge on the Clown Prince of Crime.
Joker looked like he practically wet himself.

Of course, one of my favorite episodes, and what I was referencing with the bumbling sap bit. BTAS had a lot of great Joker episodes, but he doesn't act exactly like comic Joker which is all I'm trying to say (though comic Joker doesn't act like himself most of the time either)

As to losing his cool with Rachel. Rachel says "Ok stop" and Joker then toys with her, after slapping a few people and drawing a knife on someone else. I still don't see him going anywhere near ballistic, just trying (and succeeding) in creeping out everyone in the room.

[random11]

The differences between spiderman and batman are not that big.

Both are strong, fast and use gizmos.

The question if spiderman physically is stronger or faster than batman is irrelevant, since both are more than a match for the joker.
Against the joker, it is never about having more power, it is more about actually finding the joker on time, having better intel, resistance to psychological warfare and dodging traps.

With his spider senses, spiderman has a big advantage against traps and surprise attacks.
Batman however, has a lot more resources and is more likely to find the joker faster.

So at the bottom line, spiderman has a good chance if he manages to trace the joker, depending on the resources available to him in the storyline.

BTW, judging only from the movies, I don't think batman is such a good detective.
Most of the work is done for him by unique machines a lot mare than actual detective skills.

[paddyfool]

Spiderman strengths:

- Very strong in combat
- Science genius
- Toughwilled etc. (outside of the movies)
- Has numerous powerful allies

Spidey weaknesses:

- Recklessness (compensated for by spidersense to some degree)
- Often has bad press

Joker's strengths:

- Creative tactical genius (or madness, call it what you will
- Ruthlessness

Joker's weaknesses:

- Merely human
- Tends not to play well with others (see that villains-stranded-on-battleworld bit where his and Lex Luthor's personal antipathy basically sabotaged everyone)
- Tends to sabotage himself.

The way I see it playing out:

One-on-one, if Joker plays the death-trap mindgames etc., Spidey can't get at him until he wants him to or Spidey lucks out (at which point Spidey kicks his arse), but at the same time, Joker likely won't be able to build a death trap that can take Spidey down. Although Mysterio at least has tried this repeatedly with better tools (if less genius) than Joker has, and tends to lose. With allies, Spidey can kick Joker's arse into next week (e.g. getting Dr Strange to scry Joker's location etc.), whereas Joker gains no advantage, but that's sorta cheating on the terms of this engagement. Psychologically breaking Parker completely won't ever happen, because as a superhero, he's got bags of plot armour against this, no matter how wangsty he occasionally gets made by bad writing.

However, by trope knowledge... this would be an eventual win for Parker, but something of an ambivalently pyrrhic one. No-one goes up against the Joker and escapes unscathed, and Spiderman wins out against pretty much any villain eventually. Possibly it could even drag Spiderman and much of NY into a bit of a grimdark phase, while the Joker laughs from a prison somewhere about spiders in webs etc.


doesn't Batman go up against people with powers every once in a while? Such as Clayface?

Yep, or Superman, or Darkseid. He tends to win, simply because how he wins is always a more interesting story than how he'd lose.

[The Big Dice]

Yep, or Superman, or Darkseid. He tends to win, simply because how he wins is always a more interesting story than how he'd lose.
Always winning is inherently less interesting than sometimes losing.

[true_shinken]

Depends on which Joker. The Joker McGuiness fought would def. lose to Spiderman. Heath's Joker? The Spiderman from the Raimi movies probably wouldn't have the emotional strength to win the day. And let's face it, Spidey's enemies are fairly straightforward, whereas Joker thrives on the unexpected.

You're missing Chameleon, Green Goblin and Mysterio.

[chiasaur11]

You're missing Chameleon, Green Goblin and Mysterio.

Hobgobline, Scrier (yeah, he's awful, but the point stands), Kingpen (Seen what he did to Matt Murdock?), Mr. Negative...

[Moogle0119]

Don't forget what Kraven did to Spidey in Last Hunt. Even after all of that it still didn't manage to him down completely. (being framed for various murders and being buried alive for weeks, all just to prove that Kraven was better than he was)

[Mewtarthio]

Basically, the one thing I'm wondering is: How is the Joker a bigger threat than the Green Goblin? I'm not asking about the characters (heck, I even like the Joker better than the Goblin), but in terms of actual threat, the Joker has, what, a sadistic sense of humor? Goblin has that, plus super strength, plus insane healing abilities (he's recovered from getting impaled and then bleeding to death), plus the ability to supress his fits of homicidal whimsy and act like a normal person when he needs to, plus more gadgets, plus knowledge of his opponent's secret identity. If Peter can go up against that, why wouldn't he be able to take on the Joker?

[Forum Explorer]

Basically, the one thing I'm wondering is: How is the Joker a bigger threat than the Green Goblin? I'm not asking about the characters (heck, I even like the Joker better than the Goblin), but in terms of actual threat, the Joker has, what, a sadistic sense of humor? Goblin has that, plus super strength, plus insane healing abilities (he's recovered from getting impaled and then bleeding to death), plus the ability to supress his fits of homicidal whimsy and act like a normal person when he needs to, plus more gadgets, plus knowledge of his opponent's secret identity. If Peter can go up against that, why wouldn't he be able to take on the Joker?

Goblin likes to fight face to face?

[Zaydos]

Goblin likes to fight face to face?

He prefers messing with Parker from behind the scenes, at least according to the Clone Saga.

[Dienekes]

Basically, the one thing I'm wondering is: How is the Joker a bigger threat than the Green Goblin? I'm not asking about the characters (heck, I even like the Joker better than the Goblin), but in terms of actual threat, the Joker has, what, a sadistic sense of humor? Goblin has that, plus super strength, plus insane healing abilities (he's recovered from getting impaled and then bleeding to death), plus the ability to supress his fits of homicidal whimsy and act like a normal person when he needs to, plus more gadgets, plus knowledge of his opponent's secret identity. If Peter can go up against that, why wouldn't he be able to take on the Joker?

Generally, the messes Joker leaves tend to have a lot higher death count (not always of course), and of the two I'd put that Joker is the better at psychological terror and pulling tricks and misdirections out of nowhere. Also GG seems to mostly have his plots try to either squash spiderman or better himself which makes him more predictable than the villain who is more focused on general destruction.

Which is the interesting bit since I can think of twice where GG has broken Peter down mentally so it'd be interesting to see if Joker can pull it off and actually have it stick. I doubt it, but hey it'd make a good read.

[Selrahc]

The Green Goblin is a mess. Schizophrenic, but not as actively homicidal as the Joker. And actively trying to keep a respectable civilian identity intact. I'm not saying he isn't a twisted psycho, but he is at least an order of magnitude less of a twisted psycho than the joker.

I think the Goblin is far better at pushing Parker's buttons than the Joker would ever be though.

[Shyftir]

I have a friend who is a big Batman fan when I mentioned this fight his immediate reaction was that Spidey had no chance then started listing all the people Joker beat at times. He pretty much proved to me that DC has allowed the batman/joker popularity cult dictate character capability all over the board.

Joker has in canon beaten people so far above his ability that it stretches believability into oblivion.

So the question boils down to this:
Logical answer: Spidey wins, just as smart, far more mobile, way more physically capable.

DC Fanboy answer: Joker, because he's the Joker. I mean come on. He beat Deathstroke!

[Mewtarthio]

The Green Goblin is a mess. Schizophrenic, but not as actively homicidal as the Joker. And actively trying to keep a respectable civilian identity intact. I'm not saying he isn't a twisted psycho, but he is at least an order of magnitude less of a twisted psycho than the joker.

I think the Goblin is far better at pushing Parker's buttons than the Joker would ever be though.

I was referring to the threat he posed to Spiderman. In general, yes, Joker's lack of restraint makes him a bigger threat to public welfare, and he'll certainly end the game with a larger body count than the Goblin. In terms of pursuing a specific goal (in this case, defeating Spidey, whatever "defeat" means), though, Goblin has the edge.

Wait, I just had a thought. The real question here is what "defeat" means. Therefore, Joker wins automatically, because he just redefines "defeat" to be whatever he's managed to accomplish. As they wheel his webbed-up form to Arkham, he suddenly bursts out laughing, and declares: "Ha! You think your jokes and quips are so clever, wall-crawler? The real joke is you don't see I already won! Ha! Ha ha ha ha ha!!!!!"

[Dienekes]

DC Fanboy answer: Joker, because he's the Joker. I mean come on. He beat Deathstroke!

Joker has beaten and been beaten by a lot of people he shouldn't have. But totting out this one confuses me, Deathstroke really isn't that far beyond Joker in threat level. If Joke beat him in a round of fisticuffs sure that'd be just wrong, but he didn't. He outsmarted him far and square really.

[paddyfool]

Always winning is inherently less interesting than sometimes losing.

"Tends to" does not equal "always."

-----

Anyway, here's an alternative way this could go: Most crossovers have two heroes and two adversaries. So throw in Batman as well, and one of the more psychotic Spidey villains (say, Venom, in his Dark Reign incarnation). Then have happy fun times with Venom-Batman and Joker-Venom!

[chiasaur11]

I was referring to the threat he posed to Spiderman. In general, yes, Joker's lack of restraint makes him a bigger threat to public welfare, and he'll certainly end the game with a larger body count than the Goblin. In terms of pursuing a specific goal (in this case, defeating Spidey, whatever "defeat" means), though, Goblin has the edge.

Wait, I just had a thought. The real question here is what "defeat" means. Therefore, Joker wins automatically, because he just redefines "defeat" to be whatever he's managed to accomplish. As they wheel his webbed-up form to Arkham, he suddenly bursts out laughing, and declares: "Ha! You think your jokes and quips are so clever, wall-crawler? The real joke is you don't see I already won! Ha! Ha ha ha ha ha!!!!!"

Heh.

Like The Last Riddler Story?

[Shyftir]

Joker has beaten and been beaten by a lot of people he shouldn't have. But totting out this one confuses me, Deathstroke really isn't that far beyond Joker in threat level. If Joke beat him in a round of fisticuffs sure that'd be just wrong, but he didn't. He outsmarted him far and square really.

I'm basically paraphrasing what my friend said. He was pretty upset when I said Bats had no business playing on the JLA level. I basically said that Batman was the Krillin to Supes' Son-Goku.

I said that people will read comics because Batman is in them which is why he's in JLA stuff when realistically he'd have no purpose in such a group. This also ticked off my friend who counter-claimed that people read comics because of the authors writing them not the characters in them. Basically he was in major denial about the reality of popularity power in comicsdom.

Of sure, he might read them because he likes the author. But he's also the sort of guy who sees a movie because he likes the director not because of the contents looking interesting. You know abnormal...

[true_shinken]

Joker has beaten and been beaten by a lot of people he shouldn't have. But totting out this one confuses me, Deathstroke really isn't that far beyond Joker in threat level. If Joke beat him in a round of fisticuffs sure that'd be just wrong, but he didn't. He outsmarted him far and square really.

Outsmarting Slade is supposed to be a major feat. He is a veteran soldier, master strategist and has a very high IQ. I'd say 'he beat the justice league all by himself', but any chump does this these days. Writers at DC are using the freaking Justice League as their worf (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheWorfEffect).

[Traab]

Outsmarting Slade is supposed to be a major feat. He is a veteran soldier, master strategist and has a very high IQ. I'd say 'he beat the justice league all by himself', but any chump does this these days. Writers at DC are using the freaking Justice League as their worf (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheWorfEffect).


Well come on, the issues would be awfully short if the evil plan of the week failed right off the bat. I mean, isnt that fairly standard in comics? Bad guy shows up with some new plan/weapon, kicks good guy arse. Then the good guy comes back with a counter and beats up the bad guy again?

[chiasaur11]

Well come on, the issues would be awfully short if the evil plan of the week failed right off the bat. I mean, isnt that fairly standard in comics? Bad guy shows up with some new plan/weapon, kicks good guy arse. Then the good guy comes back with a counter and beats up the bad guy again?

That's the thing.

The Justice League should be fighting big league stuff.

Rogue gods. Whole civilizations of superhumans. Warworlds. All of them at once.

That's the level the JLA should play on. Same format, but proper scale.

[Devonix]

That's the thing.

The Justice League should be fighting big league stuff.

Rogue gods. Whole civilizations of superhumans. Warworlds. All of them at once.

That's the level the JLA should play on. Same format, but proper scale.


Yes This. the JLA exists as a group to take on threats that are too big even for the supremely powerful members of the group. When there is a problem even Supes can't take on alone thats when you need the Justice league. JLA stories should be either huge epics or smaller character pieces.

Never just random street level threats unless the whole point of the story is that the threat gets taken out in 2 pages and the rest is just stuff with the team talking

[Devonix]

Batman can beat anyone. Joker can handle the Batman. I'll say Spiderman will have a hard time with the Joker, it'd be interesting. I feel as if since Spiderman doesn't know the Joker, he'd be extremely thrown off by his random acts of violence at the very least.

I wonder how Joker vs. Superman would go. It'd be either extremely short or pretty long depending how Joker played it.

Batman is not unstoppable hell he's barely in the top ten hand to hand fighters in DC if that. And I'm only considering non powered fighters.

Batman is a Jack of all Trades character , very good at a lot of things but the best in none of them {Except detective work at that he is the best}

Supes has gone up against the Joker several times and the've all been good stories.

[Traab]

That's the thing.

The Justice League should be fighting big league stuff.

Rogue gods. Whole civilizations of superhumans. Warworlds. All of them at once.

That's the level the JLA should play on. Same format, but proper scale.


While I agree that the entire league should be used for planetary threats and up, isnt the standard for JLU comics generally small groups of the heroes working together to stop something? I always thought the league was a sort of gathering point for earths superheroes, that way there would always be heroes on hand to fill in where needed for the regular stuff, and to be ready in case another intergalactic war breaks out and threatens earth.

[Devonix]

While I agree that the entire league should be used for planetary threats and up, isnt the standard for JLU comics generally small groups of the heroes working together to stop something? I always thought the league was a sort of gathering point for earths superheroes, that way there would always be heroes on hand to fill in where needed for the regular stuff, and to be ready in case another intergalactic war breaks out and threatens earth.

Cartoon yes comics no. The JLA is a specific team not a gathering of every DC super hero. Its one team gathered to work on specific problems.

[Dienekes]

Outsmarting Slade is supposed to be a major feat. He is a veteran soldier, master strategist and has a very high IQ. I'd say 'he beat the justice league all by himself', but any chump does this these days. Writers at DC are using the freaking Justice League as their worf (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheWorfEffect).

So has Joker (beaten the Justice League I mean). He's also outsmarted Batman before who is a master strategist with a very high IQ. For some reason people seem to forget that despite all the insanity, Joker is one of the incredibly smart villains of the DC universe. He merely aims low compared to the others.

[Da'Shain]

Joker has in canon beaten people so far above his ability that it stretches believability into oblivion.

So the question boils down to this:
Logical answer: Spidey wins, just as smart, far more mobile, way more physically capable.

DC Fanboy answer: Joker, because he's the Joker. I mean come on. He beat Deathstroke!While I certainly agree that various so-called "normal" characters in comics have taken on superhumans and won in a variety of unlikely ways ... saying that the only "logical" answer is that Spidey wins is being just as fanboyish.

On the superhuman power level, Spiderman isn't all that high up there. Far more than high enough up there to beat the Joker in a direct fight, of course, but then very few people aren't. The Joker isn't dangerous because he's a huge physical threat (although with his unpredictability and "madman's strength" he's certainly not fun to face), he's dangerous because he's often impossible to predict, has essentially no depth to which he will not sink, and has aptitudes for planning and insight that rival Batman's.

Peter's awesome in his own ways, but "just as smart" is debatable, while "far more mobile, way more physically capable" is true of Batman as well, yet the Joker consistently gives Batman a run for his money despite his inferiority in the areas of physical conflict and technology simply due to insane plans and utter depravity. To be honest, the only tool Spider-Man has that I think would really tip this conflict in his favor is his spider-sense, as it would nullify at least some of Joker's unpredictability and keep Peter from just getting shot in the back or landing on an exploding whoopee cushion on a rooftop.

So while I tend to agree that the Joker is likely to lose this particular matchup, it's certainly conceivable that he'd be able to win, with probably about the same chance he'd have against Batman. This is setting aside his likely apathy considering the Spider-Man is not Batman, which would probably make him not bring his A-game, of course.


As a side note, while I agree that the Batman Beyond Joker would likely be psyched out by most versions of Spider-Man (considering how easily Terry McGinnis did it), I don't agree that most versions of the character would fall prey to that same tactic. In most comics I've read, at least, characters who try to bandy jokes with the Joker might succeed in making him laugh, and might possibly even damage his calm, but he usually gets the last laugh, often by virtue of making a "joke" that involves injury or death.

[Devonix]

While I certainly agree that various so-called "normal" characters in comics have taken on superhumans and won in a variety of unlikely ways ... saying that the only "logical" answer is that Spidey wins is being just as fanboyish.

On the superhuman power level, Spiderman isn't all that high up there. Far more than high enough up there to beat the Joker in a direct fight, of course, but then very few people aren't. The Joker isn't dangerous because he's a huge physical threat (although with his unpredictability and "madman's strength" he's certainly not fun to face), he's dangerous because he's often impossible to predict, has essentially no depth to which he will not sink, and has aptitudes for planning and insight that rival Batman's.

Peter's awesome in his own ways, but "just as smart" is debatable, while "far more mobile, way more physically capable" is true of Batman as well, yet the Joker consistently gives Batman a run for his money despite his inferiority in the areas of physical conflict and technology simply due to insane plans and utter depravity. To be honest, the only tool Spider-Man has that I think would really tip this conflict in his favor is his spider-sense, as it would nullify at least some of Joker's unpredictability and keep Peter from just getting shot in the back or landing on an exploding whoopee cushion on a rooftop.

So while I tend to agree that the Joker is likely to lose this particular matchup, it's certainly conceivable that he'd be able to win, with probably about the same chance he'd have against Batman. This is setting aside his likely apathy considering the Spider-Man is not Batman, which would probably make him not bring his A-game, of course.


As a side note, while I agree that the Batman Beyond Joker would likely be psyched out by most versions of Spider-Man (considering how easily Terry McGinnis did it), I don't agree that most versions of the character would fall prey to that same tactic. In most comics I've read, at least, characters who try to bandy jokes with the Joker might succeed in making him laugh, and might possibly even damage his calm, but he usually gets the last laugh, often by virtue of making a "joke" that involves injury or death.



Sorry but people really need to stop downplaying spiderman's smarts. He's a good enough scientist to work with Reed Richards and Tony Stary . He is in a word one of the top tier scientists in Marvel. Is he one of the big 3 no but he is very much up there

[Zaydos]

Sorry but people really need to stop downplaying spiderman's smarts. He's a good enough scientist to work with Reed Richards and Tony Stary . He is in a word one of the top tier scientists in Marvel. Is he one of the big 3 no but he is very much up there

And he's not just good at science and gadgetry. Like has been said Spider-Man isn't one of the heaviest hitters in the Marvel Universe and he fights people who are stronger than him all the time (Scorpion, Venom, Carnage to name a few). He wins by being smart.

[Da'Shain]

Sorry but people really need to stop downplaying spiderman's smarts. He's a good enough scientist to work with Reed Richards and Tony Stary . He is in a word one of the top tier scientists in Marvel. Is he one of the big 3 no but he is very much up thereI was not downplaying Spider-Man's smarts. I was simply saying that the assertion that he's smarter than the Joker is debatable at best. Yes, he's a scientist -- scientists are specialists in a particular field, not objectively more intelligent than everyone else, especially not in areas outside their specializations. In terms of tactics, strategy, improvisation, etc., Spider-Man being a scientist has no bearing on whether he's capable of outsmarting the Joker (who also happens to be an accomplished self-taught chemist), especially when the Joker also happens to take on foes with far more resources and power than him through virtue of his mind alone. He's outsmarted Lex frakkin' Luthor on more than one occasion.

[chiasaur11]

And he's not just good at science and gadgetry. Like has been said Spider-Man isn't one of the heaviest hitters in the Marvel Universe and he fights people who are stronger than him all the time (Scorpion, Venom, Carnage to name a few). He wins by being smart.

Although he's a heavier hitter than he tends to get credit for.

10 tons is a fair deal of weight.

[Zaydos]

Although he's a heavier hitter than he tends to get credit for.

10 tons is a fair deal of weight.

He's lifted far more when properly motivated too. Even so my point that he deals with people that are physically stronger than him (and faster in the cases I listed) still stands. Doc Ock's arms are stronger than he is. The Green Goblin can, unless Peter really goes all out, match him punch for punch, and that's not getting into most of his rogue's gallery (the Rhino, Venom, Scorpion to name the first ones to come to mind). His bad guys fall mostly into two groups: master plotters, or meta-humans that are physically more powerful than he is (the Vulture of course falls in his own group, at least in the original comics of "I can fly! What that's all you need right?"). Spider-Man doesn't rely on his powers to see him through things.

[chiasaur11]

He's lifted far more when properly motivated too. Even so my point that he deals with people that are physically stronger than him (and faster in the cases I listed) still stands. Doc Ock's arms are stronger than he is. The Green Goblin can, unless Peter really goes all out, match him punch for punch, and that's not getting into most of his rogue's gallery (the Rhino, Venom, Scorpion to name the first ones to come to mind). His bad guys fall mostly into two groups: master plotters, or meta-humans that are physically more powerful than he is (the Vulture of course falls in his own group, at least in the original comics of "I can fly! What that's all you need right?"). Spider-Man doesn't rely on his powers to see him through things.

Oh, agreed.

Just noting that a Gotham criminal who could hit in Parker's class would be a big-time threat even without his intellect.

I mean, he hits harder than Killer Croc, and that guy causes a fair deal of trouble.

[Traab]

He's lifted far more when properly motivated too. Even so my point that he deals with people that are physically stronger than him (and faster in the cases I listed) still stands. Doc Ock's arms are stronger than he is. The Green Goblin can, unless Peter really goes all out, match him punch for punch, and that's not getting into most of his rogue's gallery (the Rhino, Venom, Scorpion to name the first ones to come to mind). His bad guys fall mostly into two groups: master plotters, or meta-humans that are physically more powerful than he is (the Vulture of course falls in his own group, at least in the original comics of "I can fly! What that's all you need right?"). Spider-Man doesn't rely on his powers to see him through things.

True, but thats the standard for comic heroes. They always have a balanced set of villains to fight. Thats why batman isnt facing off against metallo all the time, or fighting the juggernaut. Spiderman has the strength to chuck cars around like frisbees, so obviously the bad guys he fights need to be able to match that. Although, too be honest I have to wonder if they took a little creative license with his strength in the second movie. Being able to stop an out of control train, seems like it might put a bit more than ten tons of strain on his arms. Makes me wonder how they didnt get torn from their sockets. Oh sure he passed out from the strain, but still, he basically stopped hundreds of tons of steel, moving at maximum speed, with no brakes, with his bare hands. Superman would have taken more than a few seconds to pull that off.

[Sholos]

To put Spidey's power level in perspective, he at one point took out the entire X-Men team (Colossus, Cyclops, Nightcrawler, Professor X, Rogue, Storm, Wolverine, and Lockheed) in a manner of seconds. True, after Professor X came around just a bit later, he wiped Peter's mind, but the fact is that Spidey completely wiped the floor with them first. Spidey is actually one of the stronger non-stupid-powerful characters in Marvel.

[Forum Explorer]

To put Spidey's power level in perspective, he at one point took out the entire X-Men team (Colossus, Cyclops, Nightcrawler, Professor X, Rogue, Storm, Wolverine, and Lockheed) in a manner of seconds. True, after Professor X came around just a bit later, he wiped Peter's mind, but the fact is that Spidey completely wiped the floor with them first. Spidey is actually one of the stronger non-stupid-powerful characters in Marvel.

That seems more to be due to populatrity power than anything else.

[Dienekes]

To put Spidey's power level in perspective, he at one point took out the entire X-Men team (Colossus, Cyclops, Nightcrawler, Professor X, Rogue, Storm, Wolverine, and Lockheed) in a manner of seconds. True, after Professor X came around just a bit later, he wiped Peter's mind, but the fact is that Spidey completely wiped the floor with them first. Spidey is actually one of the stronger non-stupid-powerful characters in Marvel.

And Wolverine's beaten him 1 on 1 before.

Saying someone is better because they won a specific battle in comics is at best going to give you contradictions. At worst, people will come off thinking Wolverine is stronger than Lobo, or Spiderman is better than Superboy. Even though the losers are clearly out of the formers league.

Honestly, in going against the X-Men. Professor X, Storm, and Rogue could probably take him of those you listed. He'd trounce Colossus, Wolverine, and Nightcrawler. Cyclops, depending on the writer, may be able to get a super shot off that leaves Peter smoking on the ground, or he'll be completely ineffectual.

[Forum Explorer]

And Wolverine's beaten him 1 on 1 before.

Saying someone is better because they won a specific battle in comics is at best going to give you contradictions. At worst, people will come off thinking Wolverine is stronger than Lobo, or Spiderman is better than Superboy. Even though the losers are clearly out of the formers league.

Honestly, in going against the X-Men. Professor X, Storm, and Rogue could probably take him of those you listed. He'd trounce Colossus, Wolverine, and Nightcrawler. Cyclops, depending on the writer, may be able to get a super shot off that leaves Peter smoking on the ground, or he'll be completely ineffectual.

Really he could take Nightcrawler? I see that more as the ultimate draw really. Teleport out of web but can't hit Petey due to spider sense.

[Zaydos]

Really he could take Nightcrawler? I see that more as the ultimate draw really. Teleport out of web but can't hit Petey due to spider sense.

Spidey would win because of spider-sense. Nightcrawler teleports and mister split second precog + superhuman reaction speed punches Nightcrawler in the face. Now it depends upon objective. If Spidey has to catch Nightcrawler, Nightcrawler wins. If Nightcrawler can't just run away, though, Spidey can clock him each time Nightcrawler attacks.

[Dienekes]

Really he could take Nightcrawler? I see that more as the ultimate draw really. Teleport out of web but can't hit Petey due to spider sense.

I think of it this way.

Spidey has precog, Nightcrawler can teleport. They more or less cancel each other out, I give the edge slightly to Nightcrawler there but only slightly. If Spiderman can actually force an engagement though (which he's smart enough to do I think) he'll inevitably win. Because in the end, Spidey needs 1 lucky blow to take Nightcrawler out. Nightcrawler can keep pounding on Spidey for a long long time before he even really wears him out.

[Mewtarthio]

Spidey sense cancels out teleportation. Teleportation does not cancel out spidey sense. A foe who teleports behind Spiderman is no different from a foe who simply stands behind Spiderman. Peter senses the incoming attack and punches Nightcrawler out before the X-Man can make the attack.

[chiasaur11]

Spidey sense cancels out teleportation. Teleportation does not cancel out spidey sense. A foe who teleports behind Spiderman is no different from a foe who simply stands behind Spiderman. Peter senses the incoming attack and punches Nightcrawler out before the X-Man can make the attack.

Bullseye.

I like Kurt as much as the next guy, but teleporters are the ones hit hardest by precog.

And Parker has enough control and power to one punch anyone in Kurt's weight class.

[stcfg]

Spidey sense does not work through dimensions.

It didn't work on the Spot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spot_(comics)) who used portals to teleport through another dimension, so it shouldn't work on Nightcrawler who teleports through another dimension without portals.

[Dienekes]

Spidey sense cancels out teleportation. Teleportation does not cancel out spidey sense. A foe who teleports behind Spiderman is no different from a foe who simply stands behind Spiderman. Peter senses the incoming attack and punches Nightcrawler out before the X-Man can make the attack.

Let's not overstate his abilities here. Spidey has been punched before, numerous times. His reactions are awesome but his precog is not infallible. A guy who randomly pops in multiple locations and can attack from multiple directions within seconds will probably be able to hit him a few times. But ultimately, Nightcrawler does not have the force in his blows necessary to really stop Peter. Spiderman definitely has enough to stop Nightcrawler.

[Devonix]

And Wolverine's beaten him 1 on 1 before.

Saying someone is better because they won a specific battle in comics is at best going to give you contradictions. At worst, people will come off thinking Wolverine is stronger than Lobo, or Spiderman is better than Superboy. Even though the losers are clearly out of the formers league.

Honestly, in going against the X-Men. Professor X, Storm, and Rogue could probably take him of those you listed. He'd trounce Colossus, Wolverine, and Nightcrawler. Cyclops, depending on the writer, may be able to get a super shot off that leaves Peter smoking on the ground, or he'll be completely ineffectual.

Really? That seems odd I'd like a source here since Spidey and Wolverine have fought several times and in nearly every encounter I've seen Spiderman has utterly trounced him.

He's faster, stronger, more agile, and has ranged attacks. It would be odd if Wolverine ever did beat him.

[AtlanteanTroll]

Really? That seems odd I'd like a source here since Spidey and Wolverine have fought several times and in nearly every encounter I've seen Spiderman has utterly trounced him.

He's faster, stronger, more agile, and has ranged attacks. It would be odd if Wolverine ever did beat him.

Popularity power coupled with Regeneration says no.

[The Glyphstone]

Popularity power (in this case, Wolverine Publicity) is really the only thing protecting him from webs though - Wolvie can't regenerate if he doesn't take damage, and enough webbing could pin his arms down to where he couldn't cut himself free. Definitely a 'victory' for Spidey, even if he didn't actually hurt his opponent.

[Zaydos]

Wolverine could wear Spider-Man out, but this doesn't say much as to the Joker VS Spider-Man. Spider-Man's ability to deal with the Green Goblin, the Chameleon, the Big Man, the Kingpin, and others says he can deal with criminal masterminds, can perform necessary detective work, and could in fact deal with him on that front. His ability to outfight stronger foes and deal with master scientists and gadgeteers (Carnage, Venom, the Scorpion, the Green Goblin, Doc Ock, Mysterio) says he could take the Joker on that front as well. His ability to make counter gadgets and inventions out of little more than shoestring and bubble gum (really now, look at his budget; he makes nice things for that budget) says he's good there. His ability to withstand ultimately a lot more mental trauma than most other super-heroes (excepting in the One More Day Storyline where he acted massively out of character and completely forgot and ignored his main defining character trait) including the whole "but my parents died" of Batman's (Pete's died when he was a kid, were accused as spies, and then his uncle/replacement father was shot because he didn't live up to his responsibility) means really the Joker can't get under his skin.

Now if you threw Petey into Gotham and immediately had him having to deal with a prepared Joker, yeah bad stuff would go down. But put him in NY with a prepared Joker and he'd figure out where he'd strike as quickly as anyone else and stop it. It's not at all out of his skill set.

[boj0]

After talking to some of my other comic buddies, I feel pretty good about my original stance. Yes, Joker would abolutely give Spidey a run for his money (and would be the best four-part crossover in the past few years), but it would be on the same level as a Green Goblin event: Bad Things happen to Peter, he figures out what's going on, deals with it in an intense life-or-death situation, wins because he's the designated Good Guy, and learns a valuable life lesson that is forgotten about with the rest of the fight in roughly 9 months.

[Dienekes]

Really? That seems odd I'd like a source here since Spidey and Wolverine have fought several times and in nearly every encounter I've seen Spiderman has utterly trounced him.

He's faster, stronger, more agile, and has ranged attacks. It would be odd if Wolverine ever did beat him.

Which I agree with. I even say in what you quoted that Spiderman should be able take out Wolverine.

As for a source, I can't actually give you one. I've read it, it exists but I don't remember comic numbers or titles at all, and I have long since parted ways with most of my comics actually. It was a thoroughly below average issue though, involving Wolverine tracking down Spiderman and being able to cut through webbing as it was launched at him, and at one point using it himself to swinging kick Spiderman.

It was thoroughly ridiculous, and more or less proves my point that saying: Well this hero beat X so obviously he could beat Y is ludicrous. Since comics and comic heroes have been around so long just about everyone has beat just about everyone else. The only rational way to go about this is trying to look at the benefits and powers of each participant and try and weigh them against each other. Hopefully you can also keep in a characters frame of mind as well, but that is a lot harder to pull off. A lot of heroes don't actually fight at full potential which should be taken into account.

Which goes again to what I've said before. In the confrontation between Spidey and Joker, Joker is a darker, possibly more intelligent, definitely more unpredictable opponent than he has faced. However, he can probably beat the Joker, but the body count will be huge and if the Joker survives he will be taken away laughing at the fun he's had.

Spiderman was able to make multiple forms of webbing with inadequate funds, Joker was able to make a deadly toxin out of prison laundry room detergents. They're both intelligent, they both can plan ahead. Spiderman's detective abilities are great, not as great as Batman I don't think, but great. And the Joker is the vexation of the heavyweight detective of the DC universe. It would be a wild ride filled with corpses and Hannibal Lecter style monologues. And possibly a wounded and traumatized hero at the end of it. But I do think Spiderman'd win, eventually.

[Traab]

Which I agree with. I even say in what you quoted that Spiderman should be able take out Wolverine.

As for a source, I can't actually give you one. I've read it, it exists but I don't remember comic numbers or titles at all, and I have long since parted ways with most of my comics actually. It was a thoroughly below average issue though, involving Wolverine tracking down Spiderman and being able to cut through webbing as it was launched at him, and at one point using it himself to swinging kick Spiderman.

It was thoroughly ridiculous, and more or less proves my point that saying: Well this hero beat X so obviously he could beat Y. Since comics and comic heroes have been around so long just about everyone has beat just about everyone else. The only rational way to go about this is trying to look at the benefits and powers of each participant and try and way them against each other. Hopefully you can also keep in a characters frame of mind as well, but that is a lot harder to pull off. A lot of heroes don't actually fight at full potential which should be taken into account.

Which goes again to what I've said before. In the confrontation between Spidey and Joker, Joker is a darker, possibly more intelligent, definitely more unpredictable opponent than he has faced. However, he can probably beat the Joker, but the body count will be huge and if the Joker survives he will be taken away laughing at the fun he's had.

Spiderman was able to make multiple forms of webbing with inadequate funds, Joker was able to make a deadly toxin out of prison laundry room detergents. They're both intelligent, they both can plan ahead. Spiderman's detective abilities are great, not as great as Batman I don't think, but great. And the Joker is the vexation of the heavyweight detective of the DC universe. It would be a wild ride filled with corpses and Hannibal Lecter style monologues. And possibly a wounded and traumatized hero at the end of it. But I do think Spiderman'd win, eventually.

That not fighting at full potential thing is also a reason why wolverine would have such a hard time beating spidey. He kills things. His claws dont have a "stun" setting. Spiderman on the other hand has to really TRY to kill people. Most of his stuff is nonlethal unless he uses it right. So he is capable of going closer to all out than wolverine is.

[Selrahc]

Spiderman on the other hand has to really TRY to kill people. Most of his stuff is nonlethal unless he uses it right.

Uh...

You do know that punches can easily kill people even when done by people who couldn't wrap a lamppost into knots?

Spidey constantly dials down the force he uses, because if he hit people as hard as he was capable of, he would kill them.

[Traab]

Uh...

You do know that punches can easily kill people even when done by people who couldn't wrap a lamppost into knots?

Spidey constantly dials down the force he uses, because if he hit people as hard as he was capable of, he would kill them.

True, but then again, fists arent any wheres near as lethal as 6 razor sharp 18 inch blades coming out from in between your fingers. And thats really my point, thats how spiderman fights, his weapons are designed to capture and restrain, and he can use as much physical strength as he needs to knock you out. Wolverine fighting in a nonlethal fashion is like fighting with his arms tied behind his back. He is the go to guy for when you want to leave the bad guy deli sliced and in a pile on the floor.

[The Big Dice]

True, but then again, fists arent any wheres near as lethal as 6 razor sharp 18 inch blades coming out from in between your fingers. And thats really my point, thats how spiderman fights, his weapons are designed to capture and restrain, and he can use as much physical strength as he needs to knock you out. Wolverine fighting in a nonlethal fashion is like fighting with his arms tied behind his back. He is the go to guy for when you want to leave the bad guy deli sliced and in a pile on the floor.

I've seen comics where Spidey has knocked people out with a flick of his index finger and punched through concrete in a temper, without even complaining it hurt his hand.

No human could take that level of force and survive. A punch that can smash bricks like they were stale bread is going to turn internal organs to jelly. Sure, there's plenty of costumes that can take a full force kick from Spider-Man. But no normal human could without needing hospital time at the minimum and an undertaker more often than not.

[Traab]

I've seen comics where Spidey has knocked people out with a flick of his index finger and punched through concrete in a temper, without even complaining it hurt his hand.

No human could take that level of force and survive. A punch that can smash bricks like they were stale bread is going to turn internal organs to jelly. Sure, there's plenty of costumes that can take a full force kick from Spider-Man. But no normal human could without needing hospital time at the minimum and an undertaker more often than not.


Im not quite following your point. Im not saying that spiderman can go all out in a fight without killing anyone, im saying that he has a hell of a lot of options that dont involve killing he can fall back on. Wolverine has his claws. Spiderman can use his entire arsenal, and only have to hold back on his physical attacks to avoid killing, wolverine cant use his claws to do anything but cut web lines. Without his claws, he is nothing but a fast healing brawler with human level strength. Spiderman on the other hand, could still kick super hero and villian ass without his spider strength.

[Blynkibrax]

Joker doesn't find Spiderman compelling as a foil. Physical confrontation would be over far too quickly to be interesting to him, as Spidey is super fast and super strong. But Spidey, while smart, doesn't have the investigative capabilities to play a real game of cat and mouse with the Clown Prince.
Joker commits a few minor robberies, but doesn't get into an escalating psychological showdown with the costumed foe that leads into the more widescale devastation.
Bereft of true purpose, Joker ends his own life.

This. Joker just doesn't find Spidey as cute as Batman.

[The Big Dice]

Im not quite following your point. Im not saying that spiderman can go all out in a fight without killing anyone, im saying that he has a hell of a lot of options that dont involve killing he can fall back on. Wolverine has his claws. Spiderman can use his entire arsenal, and only have to hold back on his physical attacks to avoid killing, wolverine cant use his claws to do anything but cut web lines. Without his claws, he is nothing but a fast healing brawler with human level strength. Spiderman on the other hand, could still kick super hero and villian ass without his spider strength.

Spidey killed Gwen Stacy accidentally, while trying to save her from a fall. And while Spidey might not live in a world of cardboard like Superman, he does have to excercise caution all the time. Imagine if he hugged MJ a bit too hard. Or shook hands a little too heavily with someone JJJ wanted pictures of.

Try moving at full speed, but not touching anything with full force. Now imagine you're trying to do that while having the strength to rip a car in two.

My point (other than there being a hyphen in Spider-Man and Stan Lee will put worms in your mailbox for forgetting that) is that Spidey has to be careful every day, with everything he touches while not in costume. Wolverine doesn't, he just has to not pop his claws.

[VanBuren]

Spidey killed Gwen Stacy accidentally, while trying to save her from a fall. And while Spidey might not live in a world of cardboard like Superman, he does have to excercise caution all the time. Imagine if he hugged MJ a bit too hard. Or shook hands a little too heavily with someone JJJ wanted pictures of.

Try moving at full speed, but not touching anything with full force. Now imagine you're trying to do that while having the strength to rip a car in two.

My point (other than there being a hyphen in Spider-Man and Stan Lee will put worms in your mailbox for forgetting that) is that Spidey has to be careful every day, with everything he touches while not in costume. Wolverine doesn't, he just has to not pop his claws.

I'm not sure why that would be so hard outside of fights. It's a lot like how an athlete might be able to lift several times his own weight and still be able to pick up a Caterpillar without squishing it.

I mean, unless Spidey has no dexterity.

[Traab]

Spidey killed Gwen Stacy accidentally, while trying to save her from a fall. And while Spidey might not live in a world of cardboard like Superman, he does have to excercise caution all the time. Imagine if he hugged MJ a bit too hard. Or shook hands a little too heavily with someone JJJ wanted pictures of.

Try moving at full speed, but not touching anything with full force. Now imagine you're trying to do that while having the strength to rip a car in two.

My point (other than there being a hyphen in Spider-Man and Stan Lee will put worms in your mailbox for forgetting that) is that Spidey has to be careful every day, with everything he touches while not in costume. Wolverine doesn't, he just has to not pop his claws.


Yeeeaaaah, and im talking about how, in a fight between the two of them, when neither wants to actually kill the other, wolverine is at a much bigger handicap than spiderhyphenman. Which helps explain why spiderhyphenman tends to win in their little dust ups. Wolverine has to hold back a hell of alot more to avoid lethal injuries, while spiderhyphenman could go pretty much full out and still not be in any danger of killing him. Most spiderhyphenman could do to wolverine is knock him out and tie him up. But one wrong slice and wolverine would have spiderhyphenmans guts on the streets of new york.

[AtlanteanTroll]

I mean, unless Spidey has no dexterity.

Which he clearly has, or else he'd be long dead.