Practical Optimization of TWF Rogue

[Master Thrower]

Hey play grounders, I'm making a TWF rogue starting at 11 level, I would like to take levels in the shadow dancer PrC (1 or 2) and the rest in either rogue or some other class. Im open to using UMD but am not sure as to how i'd optimize it It an open ended build but i am responsible for the trap finding searching, etc.
Sources- PH,DMG,MM, CA,CD,CW,CadV,LM,PLH,DrC

[amaranth69]

I like to multi-class swashbuckler and rogue for a TWF build. I like the feel of the swashbuckling rogue, it's fun to play. Get the Daring outlaw feat, and you can level as you wish and stack levels for SA. Also, the shield of blades ACF for swashbucklers is great for TWF. Take oversize TWF and dual wield rapiers. Edit: I forgot, take cunning evasion. Idk which book it is in right off hand, but it allows you to hide as a free action when you use evasion to avoid damage. Our wizard turned me into a sneak attack machine. She had the fire arcane reserve feat.

[ffone]

Craven seems obligatory for most rogues.

Full attack + movement (via full attack charge and-or swift-action movement) will be especially desirable for this build, due to Hide in Plain Sight as well as the prereqs. There are excellent list threads like Person_Man's for ways to get this. What 'Swift Hunter' builds want will be similar to what you want.

Since you have a limited list of sources, one 'core' way to is Greater Manyshot to deal precision damage with every arrow, possibly with Shot on the Run. Very feat intensive, but shares some prereq feats with Shadowdancer. HiPS makes ranged sneak attack more doable - see about a chambered wand of Sniper's Shot to get around the range limitation - and eventually, Improved Precise Shot is nice b/c concealment prevents sneak attack dmg.

Edit: sorry, you already said TWF, as opposed to ranged.

Also, I like the Staggering Strike feat. Sneak attacks can stagger, with a damage based Fort DC (if you have Craven they'll likely need a natural 20). Unlike most sneak attack debuffs it 'costs' no damage dice.

[Master Thrower]

Craven seems obligatory for most rogues.

Full attack + movement (via full attack charge and-or swift-action movement) will be especially desirable for this build, due to Hide in Plain Sight as well as the prereqs. There are excellent list threads like Person_Man's for ways to get this. What 'Swift Hunter' builds want will be similar to what you want.

Since you have a limited list of sources, one 'core' way to is Greater Manyshot to deal precision damage with every arrow, possibly with Shot on the Run. Very feat intensive, but shares some prereq feats with Shadowdancer. HiPS makes ranged sneak attack more doable - see about a chambered wand of Sniper's Shot to get around the range limitation - and eventually, Improved Precise Shot is nice b/c concealment prevents sneak attack dmg.

Edit: sorry, you already said TWF, as opposed to ranged.

Im not set in stone about TWF but I just did a ranged rogue so was looking to spice it up

[ffone]

I like to multi-class swashbuckler and rogue for a TWF build. I like the feel of the swashbuckling rogue, it's fun to play. Get the Daring outlaw feat, and you can level as you wish and stack levels for SA. Also, the shield of blades ACF for swashbucklers is great for TWF. Take oversize TWF and dual wield rapiers.

I second all of this; I've played 'this' character, the TWF daring outlaw. Use kukris; 1d6 vs 1d4 is not worth a feat, and Swash gives you all martial proficiencies.

Snap Kick is a good alternative to TWF since it doesn't require a full attack.

[Keld Denar]

You are missing a few of the better sources for this concept, namedly Complete Scoundrel for Daring Outlaw. Rogue4/Swash16 is about as PO as you can get with this concept, as it gives you the full SA of a level 20 Rogue on a 19/20 BAB chassis.

Sans that, I'd suggest looking into Invisible Blade. The prereqs are kinda funky since it used to be combined with Master Thrower prior to release, but then the two were broken apart and editing failed to catch the lack of change to the prereqs (which, while sad, isn't surprising). Invisible Blade will at least give you 3d6 SA in 5 levels while preserving full BAB. Won't get you into the nice Roguey special features like Crippling Strike or Skill Mastery, but will make you a bit more combat effective while ensuring that you get to 16/20 BAB pre-epic for your 4th iterative if that's important for you.

[Master Thrower]

You are missing a few of the better sources for this concept, namedly Complete Scoundrel for Daring Outlaw. Rogue4/Swash16 is about as PO as you can get with this concept, as it gives you the full SA of a level 20 Rogue on a 19/20 BAB chassis.

Sans that, I'd suggest looking into Invisible Blade. The prereqs are kinda funky since it used to be combined with Master Thrower prior to release, but then the two were broken apart and editing failed to catch the lack of change to the prereqs (which, while sad, isn't surprising). Invisible Blade will at least give you 3d6 SA in 5 levels while preserving full BAB. Won't get you into the nice Roguey special features like Crippling Strike or Skill Mastery, but will make you a bit more combat effective while ensuring that you get to 16/20 BAB pre-epic for your 4th iterative if that's important for you.

Yeah I realized eventually after searching that Daring Outlaw isnt in an allowed book :smallfrown: but i was thinking about seeing if my DM would allow some changes to the invisible blade Pre req's mainly TWF or dodge (which is just a flat +1 dodge, house rule)

[stainboy]

I second all of this; I've played 'this' character, the TWF daring outlaw. Use kukris; 1d6 vs 1d4 is not worth a feat, and Swash gives you all martial proficiencies.


Mathematically, kukri crit-fishing isn't that great. Compare a pair of kukris vs a rapier mainhand/shortsword offhand. Assume Swashbuckler 3, Int 14, and +3 weapons (appropriate for level 11), for a total +5 damage bonus.

In raw damage a weapon's threat range is worth Average weapon damage * Threat Range / 20. (Feel free to doublecheck my math, but this should be right assuming an AC where the weapon can't miss on a value that threatens a critical.)

Average Damage By Weapon (counting crits and assuming +5 bonus damage)
Shortsword without Imp Crit - 9.35.
Rapier, without Imp Crit - 9.775.
Kukri, with Imp Crit - 8.625.
Rapier, with Imp Crit - 11.15.
Kukri, with Imp Crit - 9.75.

So a kukri with Improved Critical is still a worse weapon than a rapier without Improved Critical. Even assuming you make an equal number of attacks with both weapons, your Imp Crit kukri build only nets you 0.375 damage per pair of attacks, at the cost of a feat. If you'd just taken Improved Critical (rapier) and accepted that it didn't work with your offhand, you would still would have done more damage than with two Imp Crit kukris. Even in that case Improved Critical only gets you 1.375 damage on half your attacks, which isn't worth a feat.

If you're a Small rogue, the smaller die damage difference make Imp Crit with two kukris slightly better than Imp Crit (Rapier) with a shortsword offhand, but without Imp Crit a rapier/shortsword is still better and Improved Critical still isn't worth it.

Verdict: Kukris aren't worth it, and spending feats to improve your threat range is for barbarians with falchions.

Go MH Rapier / OH Shortsword, or two shortswords if you can afford Weapon Focus. Kisuri-gamas aren't bad either if you can count on getting sneak attack on your AoOs.

[Master Thrower]

Mathematically, kukri crit-fishing isn't that great. Compare a pair of kukris vs a rapier mainhand/shortsword offhand. Assume Swashbuckler 3, Int 14, and +3 weapons (appropriate for level 11), for a total +5 damage bonus.

In raw damage a weapon's threat range is worth Average weapon damage * Threat Range / 20. (Feel free to doublecheck my math, but this should be right assuming an AC where the weapon can't miss on a value that threatens a critical.)

Average Damage By Weapon (counting crits and assuming +5 bonus damage)
Shortsword without Imp Crit - 9.35.
Rapier, without Imp Crit - 9.775.
Kukri, with Imp Crit - 8.625.
Rapier, with Imp Crit - 11.15.
Kukri, with Imp Crit - 9.75.

So a kukri with Improved Critical is still a worse weapon than a rapier without Improved Critical. Even assuming you make an equal number of attacks with both weapons, your Imp Crit kukri build only nets you 0.375 damage per pair of attacks, at the cost of a feat. If you'd just taken Improved Critical (rapier) and accepted that it didn't work with your offhand, you would still would have done more damage than with two Imp Crit kukris. Even in that case Improved Critical only gets you 1.375 damage on half your attacks, which isn't worth a feat.

If you're a Small rogue, the smaller die damage difference make Imp Crit with two kukris slightly better than Imp Crit (Rapier) with a shortsword offhand, but without Imp Crit a rapier/shortsword is still better and Improved Critical still isn't worth it.

Verdict: Kukris aren't worth it, and spending feats to improve your threat range is for barbarians with falchions.

Go MH Rapier / OH Shortsword, or two shortswords if you can afford Weapon Focus. Kisuri-gamas aren't bad either if you can count on getting sneak attack on your AoOs.

hmm thats very interesting, one of the people suggested that i take either a burst weapon or a thundering weapon because on a 15-20 crit ( or 30%) chance to crit, because of my low to hit most of the times i'd hit i would also crit and deal an extra d10

[stainboy]

Don't do burst weapons, no matter what class or build you are they're a trap.

Following the assumption that every attack that hits is a critical threat, to do that +1d10 damage you still have to confirm the crit. So if every attack is critical threat, you only have a 6/20 chance to confirm, meaning you deal 0.3 * 1d10 damage. If all of your attacks hit (well, 19/20), then most of your successful attacks are not critical threats. Either way the burst property averages less than 2 damage. Compared to just loading on more +1d6 damage properties, that's pretty bad.

[Curmudgeon]

Compared to just loading on more +1d6 damage properties, that's pretty bad.
Additionally, for a Rogue, any damage-only weapon enhancements are poor choices. Most of a Rogue's damage is going to come from sneak attack. At any level the Rogue will have more d6s from sneak attack than they can buy as +1d6 weapon enhancements. That means that the emphasis should be on hitting more often, because a miss means both zero weapon damage and zero sneak attack damage.

Almost all Rogue weapon enhancements should be numeric, to increase the chance for getting to add all that sneak attack damage. Craven provides a justification to also buy keen for a wide threat range weapon (typically a rapier), because Craven's non-dice bonus will get multiplied on a critical hit. (Craven isn't enough to justify buying Improved Critical; feats are always too precious for a Rogue to take when they or their equivalent can be bought for gold.) Even if you've got a reliable source of "free" Greater Magic Weapon casting, you shouldn't waste your money on weapon damage enhancements. There are many types of magical gear the Rogue would be better served by than small weapon damage boosts. Also keep in mind the risk of temporary magic being dispelled. If you're facing a lich, having a +3 weapon to support a greater truedeath augment crystal is much superior to having a +1 weapon with the crystal reduced to lesser status after the lich dispels Greater Magic Weapon. :smalleek:

[Draz74]

Just pointing out, the OP's list of sources, along with not including Complete Scoundrel for Daring Outlaw, also does not include sources for Truedeath Crystals, Staggering Strike, or Craven. So a large part of this thread's discussion is irrelevant.

Kind of hard to avoid that, though, when really just about all of the books a Rogue really wants aren't on the list. :smallfrown: (Two in particular haven't been mentioned but do amazing things for the Rogue: Tome of Battle and Dungeonscape, the latter for Penetrating Strike.)

[Curmudgeon]

(Two in particular haven't been mentioned but do amazing things for the Rogue: Tome of Battle and Dungeonscape, the latter for Penetrating Strike.)
There's a better (mechanically the same, but more clearly explained) version of Penetrating Strike called Lightbringer Penetrating Strike in Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, but yet again that's not on the list of allowed sources.

[Master Thrower]

Additionally, for a Rogue, any damage-only weapon enhancements are poor choices. Most of a Rogue's damage is going to come from sneak attack. At any level the Rogue will have more d6s from sneak attack than they can buy as +1d6 weapon enhancements. That means that the emphasis should be on hitting more often, because a miss means both zero weapon damage and zero sneak attack damage.

Almost all Rogue weapon enhancements should be numeric, to increase the chance for getting to add all that sneak attack damage. Craven provides a justification to also buy keen for a wide threat range weapon (typically a rapier), because Craven's non-dice bonus will get multiplied on a critical hit. (Craven isn't enough to justify buying Improved Critical; feats are always too precious for a Rogue to take when they or their equivalent can be bought for gold.) Even if you've got a reliable source of "free" Greater Magic Weapon casting, you shouldn't waste your money on weapon damage enhancements. There are many types of magical gear the Rogue would be better served by than small weapon damage boosts. Also keep in mind the risk of temporary magic being dispelled. If you're facing a lich, having a +3 weapon to support a greater truedeath augment crystal is much superior to having a +1 weapon with the crystal reduced to lesser status after the lich dispels Greater Magic Weapon. :smalleek:

hmm so what would I upgrade my weapons to? just +X? and yah unfortunately DM likes to limit sources open for any given campaign just to challenge us
edit: and if i did do invisible blade how would I make up for the lack of Mithril breastplate? wands of mage armor?

[MeeposFire]

Craven seems obligatory for most rogues.



Since you have a limited list of sources, one 'core' way to is Greater Manyshot to deal precision damage with every arrow, possibly with Shot on the Run. Very feat intensive, but shares some prereq feats with Shadowdancer.


You can't use shot on the run with manyshot as many shot is a standard action and shot on the run says it lets you use an attack action which while being standard action normally are not the same thing. This contrasts with fly by attack which allows standard actions so if you can get a fly speed fly by attack would work.

[FlyingScanian]

On a related question, namely a Daring Outlaw going TWF and Thicket of Blades ACF (get a +2 AC Shield Bonus when attacking with at least two light weapons), which would be the better feat at level 9, Two-weapon Pounce (to get that bonus going a round earlier, as well as a generally potentially eviller charge) or Improved(?) Two-weapon Fighting?

Also: anyone know if Daring Outlaw improves Thicket of Blades (preferably with a reputable source of this as well)?

[Keld Denar]

Its Wall of Blades IIRC, and no. Daring Outlaw requires Grace, which you will not have, so you can't even TAKE Daring Outlaw with Wall of Blades.

Its not really an awkward houserule, but as written requires some sort of DM blessing.

[aquaticrna]

while this doesn't improve your sneak attack damage very well you can take some dervish to dual wield scimitars as light weapons and it gives you dervish dance which gives bonuses to attack and damage and sends your mobility through the roof... (it's in CW)

[Zaq]

I love getting spell storing daggers and a wand of Wracking Touch to fill them with. I'll let you take it from here.

[FlyingScanian]

Its Wall of Blades IIRC, and no. Daring Outlaw requires Grace, which you will not have, so you can't even TAKE Daring Outlaw with Wall of Blades.

Its not really an awkward houserule, but as written requires some sort of DM blessing.

After careful checking (and typing), it's actually Shield of Blades. However, it replaces the swashbuckler dodge feature, granted at level 5 (which Daring Outlaw also allows to stack with rogue levels), meaning that Daring Outlaw is still very much possible.

[Calimehter]

Staggering Strike is in CAdv, which is on the list of approved books.

I'd probably just focus on getting ways to full attack on the move and ways to keep your opponents flat-footed (i.e. sneak attackable). Person Man's guides have lists of ways to do both. The link below is to the melee combos, but it has links to sneak attack and TWF help too:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127026

[faceroll]

Mathematically, kukri crit-fishing isn't that great. Compare a pair of kukris vs a rapier mainhand/shortsword offhand. Assume Swashbuckler 3, Int 14, and +3 weapons (appropriate for level 11), for a total +5 damage bonus.

In raw damage a weapon's threat range is worth Average weapon damage * Threat Range / 20. (Feel free to doublecheck my math, but this should be right assuming an AC where the weapon can't miss on a value that threatens a critical.)

Average Damage By Weapon (counting crits and assuming +5 bonus damage)
Shortsword without Imp Crit - 9.35.
Rapier, without Imp Crit - 9.775.
Kukri, with Imp Crit - 8.625.
Rapier, with Imp Crit - 11.15.
Kukri, with Imp Crit - 9.75.

So a kukri with Improved Critical is still a worse weapon than a rapier without Improved Critical. Even assuming you make an equal number of attacks with both weapons, your Imp Crit kukri build only nets you 0.375 damage per pair of attacks, at the cost of a feat. If you'd just taken Improved Critical (rapier) and accepted that it didn't work with your offhand, you would still would have done more damage than with two Imp Crit kukris. Even in that case Improved Critical only gets you 1.375 damage on half your attacks, which isn't worth a feat.

If you're a Small rogue, the smaller die damage difference make Imp Crit with two kukris slightly better than Imp Crit (Rapier) with a shortsword offhand, but without Imp Crit a rapier/shortsword is still better and Improved Critical still isn't worth it.

Verdict: Kukris aren't worth it, and spending feats to improve your threat range is for barbarians with falchions.

Go MH Rapier / OH Shortsword, or two shortswords if you can afford Weapon Focus. Kisuri-gamas aren't bad either if you can count on getting sneak attack on your AoOs.

It's not on his allowed source list, but crit fishing gets better when you stack Shadow Blade and the Swashbuckler's int to damage.

[Cartigan]

It's not on his allowed source list, but crit fishing gets better when you stack Shadow Blade and the Swashbuckler's int to damage.

But it's not very good if your primary method of damage generation is not multiplied by criticals.

What's DrC?

[ffone]

Mathematically, kukri crit-fishing isn't that great. Compare a pair of kukris vs a rapier mainhand/shortsword offhand. Assume Swashbuckler 3, Int 14, and +3 weapons (appropriate for level 11), for a total +5 damage bonus.

In raw damage a weapon's threat range is worth Average weapon damage * Threat Range / 20. (Feel free to doublecheck my math, but this should be right assuming an AC where the weapon can't miss on a value that threatens a critical.)

Average Damage By Weapon (counting crits and assuming +5 bonus damage)
Shortsword without Imp Crit - 9.35.
Rapier, without Imp Crit - 9.775.
Kukri, with Imp Crit - 8.625.
Rapier, with Imp Crit - 11.15.
Kukri, with Imp Crit - 9.75.

So a kukri with Improved Critical is still a worse weapon than a rapier without Improved Critical. Even assuming you make an equal number of attacks with both weapons, your Imp Crit kukri build only nets you 0.375 damage per pair of attacks, at the cost of a feat. If you'd just taken Improved Critical (rapier) and accepted that it didn't work with your offhand, you would still would have done more damage than with two Imp Crit kukris. Even in that case Improved Critical only gets you 1.375 damage on half your attacks, which isn't worth a feat.

If you're a Small rogue, the smaller die damage difference make Imp Crit with two kukris slightly better than Imp Crit (Rapier) with a shortsword offhand, but without Imp Crit a rapier/shortsword is still better and Improved Critical still isn't worth it.

Verdict: Kukris aren't worth it, and spending feats to improve your threat range is for barbarians with falchions.

Go MH Rapier / OH Shortsword, or two shortswords if you can afford Weapon Focus. Kisuri-gamas aren't bad either if you can count on getting sneak attack on your AoOs.


I appreciate the detailed analysis - I wish more people would back up what they say with numbers! - and concur with the "average damage * threat range / 20" (which in fact is slightly optimistic - if it takes a 16 to hit a foe, the 15 of the 15-20 range is wasted. But it will usually hit so we can ignore that. And there's the chance the foe is crit immune of course).

While your analysis looks legit, it's actually sort of orthogonal to what i was originally saying. Someone suggested TWFing rapiers (and spending a feat to do it) - I presumed the reason was they really wanted crits (otherwise you'd TWF shortswords) in which case kukris gives you the same threat range, and saves a feat for only 1 less damage. I wasn't saying dual kukris was the globally best style. And of course you're rght that barring Improved Crit, rapier + kukri > two kurkis anyway (another reason to buy keen instead).

While it's true that it usually takes a lot of damage mod to make a wider threat worth less base damage, it can come out ahead for the daring outlaw:

- Craven damage is multiplied.
- Swash has high level crit-based class features (2 Str and later 2 Con on crits).
- The person might have Telling Blow (crits are sneak attacks). Telling Blow will give at most a 30% chance to crit (without obscure things like Disciple of Dispater), so it's not really worth it in situations where you could tumble into flanking position or something, but it can be a nice backup if you find yourself unable to sneak attack any other way (enemy with concealment which you can't see through, or you just can't hide or flank, or you want to stay outside 30' and don't have Sniper's Shot type magic). If an enemy has DR and can't be sneak attacked the usual ways, it could make the difference in being able to do any damage. Telling Blow isn't for everyone - but I figured it might be why the two-rapier person was investing in Oversized TWF, since usually rogues don't crit-fish. Oversized TWF is effectively spending a feat for 1 point of damage or threat range (vs kukri in shortsword) in the off hand only, so, almost anything else is better.

[MeeposFire]

I think you get less numbers in 3.5 discussions since it is hard to figure out hit percentages since there is a less established standard for AC in 3.5 than say 4e which have very standard defenses with small deviation. This is further compounded by BAB iteratives that makes calculations even more difficult. Some math can be easy if the two things being compared are very similar but if they are not it can be difficult. Lastly many people are not that knowledgeable about math while other are so you just might have to wait for somebody to come along who is good at math.

[Cartigan]

He's going to be fairly strapped for feats if he goes TWF Rogue -> Shadowdancer. That's basically all his feats right there unless he is Human (or the Halfling that is basically Human).

[JaronK]

I notice Libris Mortis is in play. Being a Necropolitan gives huge benefits... one of which is the ability to use Lifedrinker weapons (usually you'll want them to be something other than a Longsword... Kukris are my favorite). That will make you FAR more dangerous when you make a bunch of attacks. Also, the Lifesight feat is absolutely incredible, especially if you're trying to be stealthy (which I assume you are based on the Shadowdancer comment). Just make sure you get turned into one in a desecrated area near an evil alter for the extra hp, and that you use disguise to look like you're not undead (so people don't target you with anti-undead attacks).

Being an undead assassin is always fun!

JaronK

[Master Thrower]

I notice Libris Mortis is in play. Being a Necropolitan gives huge benefits... one of which is the ability to use Lifedrinker weapons (usually you'll want them to be something other than a Longsword... Kukris are my favorite). That will make you FAR more dangerous when you make a bunch of attacks. Also, the Lifesight feat is absolutely incredible, especially if you're trying to be stealthy (which I assume you are based on the Shadowdancer comment). Just make sure you get turned into one in a desecrated area near an evil alter for the extra hp, and that you use disguise to look like you're not undead (so people don't target you with anti-undead attacks).

Being an undead assassin is always fun!

JaronK

hm im not sure if I have the feats to pick up lifesight, but being a necropolitan, has its benefits as it'll probably up my health, and makes me less MAD. Buuut how would the party cleric heal me? (in or out of comabt) hes currently NG i believe

[Quietus]

hm im not sure if I have the feats to pick up lifesight, but being a necropolitan, has its benefits as it'll probably up my health, and makes me less MAD. Buuut how would the party cleric heal me? (in or out of comabt) hes currently NG i believe

Prepared inflict spells, or scrolls/wands of the same?

[faceroll]

But it's not very good if your primary method of damage generation is not multiplied by criticals.

What's DrC?

His primary attack mode is making many attacks (TWF), so stacking small amounts of damage on them pays off.


He's going to be fairly strapped for feats if he goes TWF Rogue -> Shadowdancer. That's basically all his feats right there unless he is Human (or the Halfling that is basically Human).

Yeah, and he lacks the sources to get some of those feats on items.


hm im not sure if I have the feats to pick up lifesight, but being a necropolitan, has its benefits as it'll probably up my health, and makes me less MAD. Buuut how would the party cleric heal me? (in or out of comabt) hes currently NG i believe

Don't rely on him for healing. Instead, purchase a wand of lesser vigor for 750 gp at your first opportunity, and use UMD to heal yourself. Despite being a conjuration [healing] spell, its effect is to give a target fast healing, which is perfectly legitimate for an undead creature.

[Master Thrower]

Don't rely on him for healing. Instead, purchase a wand of lesser vigor for 750 gp at your first opportunity, and use UMD to heal yourself. Despite being a conjuration [healing] spell, its effect is to give a target fast healing, which is perfectly legitimate for an undead creature.

ok so lesser vigor works on undead. So for in combat healing just UMD scrolls/wands of inflict x?

[Cartigan]

Since no one else is positing any ideas that are applicable, I will take a bad shot at it:

Rogue 4/Ranger 2/Shadowdancer 1/Temple Raider 4

Or just take Rogue 10/Shadowdancer 1 or Rogue 11

[MeeposFire]

Nah let the cleric prepare an inflict or two. Your job is to kill targets dead fast. Wasting your turn for a slight heal is not that good. At least until you have harm scrolls.

[Master Thrower]

Since no one else is positing any ideas that are applicable, I will take a bad shot at it:

Rogue 4/Ranger 2/Shadowdancer 1/Temple Raider 4

Or just take Rogue 10/Shadowdancer 1 or Rogue 11

why the levels of temple raider? for the spells?

[Cartigan]

why the levels of temple raider? for the spells?
Because there really isn't many other PrCs you are going to get into with the requirements for Shadowdancer burning your feats. Though going Ranger or Fighter for a couple levels will help and you can branch out to maybe one or two.

[Fineous Orlon]

Mathematically, kukri crit-fishing isn't that great. [stuff]
Verdict: Kukris aren't worth it, and spending feats to improve your threat range is for barbarians with falchions.

Go MH Rapier / OH Shortsword, or two shortswords if you can afford Weapon Focus. Kisuri-gamas aren't bad either if you can count on getting sneak attack on your AoOs.

A lot of the classic advice for kukri as your weapon of choice in 2 weapon fighting, be it both weapons, or just the off hand over a short sword is this:

Go kukris, slashing damages more creatures than piercing does. Buy keen enchantments as soon as you can. Spending feats to improve your threat range is for those rich in feats.

Then, if you must spend a feat, you can spend it on one weapon type.

If you're not worried about damage TYPE, like slashing vs. piercing, it is hard to overcome the higher base damage of the rapier or ssword as compared to the kukri. Then, keen the weapons you do get.

Then stack cheap buffs [str and int, and greater magic weapon, for example] and craven [if you can get it in] etc, or get those cheap buffs in cheap items.

A Swash/Rogue can easily get a belt of str +2 and headband of intellect +2 pretty soon. Gloves of dex +2 help with attack bonus. Keened weapons make them all so much better.

[Master Thrower]

I was thinking something like swashbuckler 3 rogue 3 Invisible blade 5 (reworked by DM completely) then shadow dancer 1.

[faceroll]

ok so lesser vigor works on undead. So for in combat healing just UMD scrolls/wands of inflict x?

Or use hide in plain sight. In combat healing is a bummer. It's usually just trade a round of not dying for dying later and hoping your allies can end the threat. I would focus on mobility, and with shadowdancer, you get that. But yeah, if you really need in combat healing, UMD a scroll of inflict lots of wounds. There may be some more efficient healing out their for undead, but I dunno.

And getting a NG cleric to heal an undead seems maybe not so practical. And asking for in combat heals? Don't count on it, if the cleric wants to help the party out and doesn't mind the undead getting hurt because, well, they are dead.

As for a build, I would suggest adding assassin, if you've got access to the spell compendium. I don't see it up there, so you can keep out of assassin, but they do get some pretty baller stuff, like wraithstrike.

[stainboy]

As for a build, I would suggest adding assassin, if you've got access to the spell compendium. I don't see it up there, so you can keep out of assassin, but they do get some pretty baller stuff, like wraithstrike.

Even without SpC, assassins get Alter Self. Excellent class if your DM doesn't ban evil characters or if he's flexible on that prereq.

E: Wraithstrike is in CAdv too, which is on the OP's list. (And the CAdv version is lower level, even.)

[JaronK]

hm im not sure if I have the feats to pick up lifesight, but being a necropolitan, has its benefits as it'll probably up my health, and makes me less MAD. Buuut how would the party cleric heal me? (in or out of comabt) hes currently NG i believe

Unfortunately you're missing the books for the main undead healing abilities (Black Sand from Sandstorm and Necrosis Carnexes from MMV are the standard ways) but Inflict spells still get the job done. You'd have a lot more HP to work with, too. It doesn't look like you have access to the books that Lesser Vigor is from, though.

JaronK

[Curmudgeon]

While in-combat healing isn't a very effective approach, there is something you can do to help: use a wand with Vampiric Touch. You've at least got Complete Arcane available, which includes the rules for sneak attack with weaponlike spells. The beauty of using Vampiric Touch is that you give yourself temporary HP equal to the total damage you deal, including sneak attack damage. So charge up your body and give your foes some sneaky little love taps. :smallwink:

[Partysan]

Interestingly I think no one mentioned wounding weapons yet. It's a core enchantment and it works great with TWF since it's only reliant on the number of attacks/hits.

[Master Thrower]

but Inflict spells still get the job done. You'd have a lot more HP to work with, too. It doesn't look like you have access to the books that Lesser Vigor is from, though.

JaronK

the vigor chain is in the complete divine which is an a legal source to use.

[Cartigan]

I was thinking something like swashbuckler 3 rogue 3 Invisible blade 5 (reworked by DM completely) then shadow dancer 1.
Why?
1) You don't have enough feats.
2) It's pointless to take Swashbuckler.
3) It relies on the DM being really lenient and you STILL wouldn't have enough feats.

The only way to pull that off is either take flaws or take a couple levels in Fighter or Ranger. Actually, if you want to pull THAT off, you will need the two extra combat feats from Fighter instead of just the free TWF from Ranger. And you would still need to be human.

Swashbuckler 1/(Fighter/Ranger) 2/Rogue 3/Invisible Blade 5/Shadowdancer 1

My suggestions may have been horrible, but least I know what the feat pre-reqs for Shadowdancer are and how many feats you are going to have by level 11.

You'd be better off straight Rogue and laying Sneak Attack into things, maybe with the Shadowdancer dip for Hide in Plain Sight.

[Keld Denar]

Vigor doesn't work on undead. While undead CAN gain fast healing, Vigor's target line says "one living creature". So while it would help a Tome-Tainted Soul, it would do nothing for a Necropolitan.

[faceroll]

stuff

Swash 3 gets you int to damage, which is great for TWFing. If you've got decent point buy.


Vigor doesn't work on undead. While undead CAN gain fast healing, Vigor's target line says "one living creature". So while it would help a Tome-Tainted Soul, it would do nothing for a Necropolitan.

Doh.

[Cartigan]

Swash 3 gets you int to damage, which is great for TWFing. If you've got decent point buy.
Who cares? You will NOT be able to qualify for those prestige classes and +3 is a pittance compared to what you SHOULD be doing in Sneak Attack.

[Fitz10019]

Swash1 gets you Weapon Finesse, freeing up a feat to take Daring Outlaw, so you get Int to Damage with no loss of feats or Sneak Attack progression. It seems zero-cost to me, unless you weren't planning on needing Weapon Finesse.

It's nice to have two sources to boost damage: Str and Int; and two spells to do it: Bull's and Fox's. Also, it's cheaper to buy 2 different +2 magic items, than it is to buy a +4 magic item.

[stainboy]

Level 1 (Rogue 1):
Two-Weapon Fighting
(Bonus Human/SH Halfling) - Point Blank Shot

Level 2 (Rogue 1/Swash 1):
(Bonus Swashbuckler) - Weapon Finesse

Level 3:
Weapon Focus (Kukri)

Level 6 (Rogue 2/Swash 3/Invisible Blade 1):
Daring Outlaw


The problem is Shadowdancer. He wants to take it as his 12th level, and he only has one more feat to get Combat Reflexes, Dodge, and Mobility. I don't see what the swash levels have to do with it though.

By the way, see the level 6 build I listed above: if you can get your DM to go for dagger sneak attack counting as regular sneak attack for prereqs, you can skip the 3rd level of rogue and still get Daring Outlaw.

[Cartigan]

{Scrubbed}


Level 6 (Rogue 2/Swash 3/Invisible Blade 1):
Daring Outlaw
NO
It's in a banned book.
This is why my ideas may be terrible but at least they take into account the number of feats available and BOOKS NOT BANNED.


The problem is Shadowdancer.
He's creating a character at 11th level, not leveling up to 12th.

{Scrubbed}

Take Rogue 10/Shadowdancer 1. Best deal.

[Master Thrower]

{Scrubbed}


NO
It's in a banned book.
This is why my ideas may be terrible but at least they take into account the number of feats available and BOOKS NOT BANNED.


He's creating a character at 11th level, not leveling up to 12th.

{Scrubbed}

Take Rogue 10/Shadowdancer 1. Best deal.

ok so swashbuckler just detracts. what should my tenth level rogue ability be? skill mastery? crippling strike?

[Cartigan]

ok so swashbuckler just detracts. what should my tenth level rogue ability be? skill mastery? crippling strike?

Improved Evasion seems like a good choice.

[Curmudgeon]

ok so swashbuckler just detracts. what should my tenth level rogue ability be? skill mastery? crippling strike?
Generally this depends on other aspects of the character. In your case, with the Shadowdancer dip, you're going to want to make sure of your Hide checks ─ because Hide in Plain Sight is just an enabler to use that skill. That means Skill Mastery is the better choice.

One thing to note about Skill Mastery: you get a number of mastered skills dependent on your current INT. You can hire an NPC spellcaster to boost you with Fox's Cunning at level-up time if you don't have something like a Headband of Intellect already giving you an enhancement boost to INT.

[Master Thrower]

Generally this depends on other aspects of the character. In your case, with the Shadowdancer dip, you're going to want to make sure of your Hide checks ─ because Hide in Plain Sight is just an enabler to use that skill. That means Skill Mastery is the better choice.

One thing to note about Skill Mastery: you get a number of mastered skills dependent on your current INT. You can hire an NPC spellcaster to boost you with Fox's Cunning at level-up time if you don't have something like a Headband of Intellect already giving you an enhancement boost to INT.

hmm so skill master on (lets say i have an 18 int) hide, move silently, then what other 5?

[Curmudgeon]

hmm so skill master on (lets say i have an 18 int) hide, move silently, then what other 5?
The most effective use of Skill Mastery is to guarantee success where there's a known DC you need to make. Tumble is a good choice here; DC 35 lets you move through an enemy's space. Search will let you find the highest-level magical trap with DC 34, and Disable Device will let you disable a magic trap with the same DC. Diplomacy DC 35 will turn hostile NPCs friendly. DC 30 will let you Climb a slippery natural wall or ceiling. Pick the skills that are important for your character.

[Noneoyabizzness]

How hooked are you on rogue?

Just satin a ranger 6/scout 4 adds in favored enemy and a few features and feats

Edit
Just tossing up a feat plan and not figuring any acfs.
1 scout combat reflexes
2 ranger track
3 ranger twf swift hunter
4-5 scout
6 ranger endurance dodge
7 scout mobility
8-9 ranger oversized twf or tw pounce
10 ranger imp twf

[faceroll]

Who cares? You will NOT be able to qualify for those prestige classes and +3 is a pittance compared to what you SHOULD be doing in Sneak Attack.

Which book is Daring Outlaw in? Complete Scoundrel?

[Curmudgeon]

Just satin a ranger 6/scout 4 adds in favored enemy and a few features and feats

3 ranger twf swift hunter
Once again, Complete Scoundrel (where Swift Hunter and Daring Outlaw appear) isn't on the allowed sources list.

[Noneoyabizzness]

Once again, Complete Scoundrel (where Swift Hunter and Daring Outlaw appear) isn't on the allowed sources list.

Fair enough. Start the dodge tree earlier. Toss in imp init, weapon finesse, quicken reconnoiter spring attack, whathaveyou.

[stainboy]

ok so swashbuckler just detracts. what should my tenth level rogue ability be? skill mastery? crippling strike?

I wouldn't abandon Swash or Invisible Blade just yet. You said your DM rewrote Invis Blade and everyone here is arguing based on RAW Invis Blade. So anyone in this thread's opinions on the worth of your DM's Invis Blade are worth precisely nil. (I've been assuming he left the prereqs unchanged, for example.)

So assuming it's good and you want it...

Swash3 gives you +1 BAB over rogue, +Int to damage (probably +2), and kukri proficiency for Invis Blade (only about 0.375 damage over daggers, but it's something). Without Daring Outlaw you lose one SA die forever and delay a second by one level, which is hard to value but let's call it (1.5)d6 SA or 5.25 average damage.

So Swash3 loses about 2.85 damage in exchange for +1 attack and a free feat (Weapon Finesse). If you can find something to do with your free feat that will give you an estimated increase of 1 or 2 points of damage, it's a trade up, and it's better at very high level or against high AC targets even if you can't.

[Cartigan]

You don't need Kukri for Invisible Blade unless that is how his DM changed it, and since when does Swashbuckler give you Kurki proficiency anyway?

And Shadowdancer still needs 3 feats. None of which are "Weapon Finesse" or "Weapon Focus (dagger-like weapon)" or "Two-Weapon Fighting." This is when you only get 4 feats from normal leveling up.

[JaronK]

since when does Swashbuckler give you Kurki proficiency anyway?

Since 3.5. But I agree that Swashbuckler is a bad plan here.

JaronK

[Cartigan]

Since 3.5. But I agree that Swashbuckler is a bad plan here.

JaronK
Never mind. I apparently read something wrong previously and then forgot to forget it.