Incantrix? What's so horrible about it?

[Cadian 9th]

Just reading over incantrix, and playtesting a bit.

I honestly don't see why it's on the automatic banlist for most games - the power of it pales, in my opinion to that off the Magelord, the Ruby Knight Vindicator, Ur Priest, Archivist and Druid. Don't get me wrong, it's a powerful prestige class. However, I don't see how Mage Lord slips in while Incantrix doesn't.

First of all, you've gotta give up another school of magic. That is actually significant.

The main ability, cooperative metamagic, only applies to another spellcaster's magic. Seize Concentration is probably the most awesome ability, followed by the capstone -1 metamagic cost.

The instant metamagic is good, so is Metamagic spell trigger. I can see a build revolving around the Wand bonding feat for warforged getting supreme versatility, but the whole class seems to me to be less powerful then it gets attributed to.

Thoughts?

[dgnslyr]

You wouldn't happen to be using the one on the Wizards web site, are you? Because that one's out of date.

[Cadian 9th]

No, the Player's guide to Faerun version. 3.5, I'm certain. I didn't even know there was a online version, fancy that.

[Zaydos]

I don't know what Mage Lord is. Vindicator can quicken a lot of spells/use a lot of boosts but nothing to match the number of extra persisted spells you can get. Ur Priest gets a few cleric spells per day and the early 9s are good but in practice a cleric is better for all but about 2 levels out of 20. Archivist is dependant upon DM and for them to be truly strong you need a lenient DM, the people who ban an incanatrix are also typically the ones that will make you earn your archivist scrolls. Druid? Best class for early levels and keeps up with a wizard in late levels. Incanatrix is one of those things that boost a wizard above druid level.

Also yeah the -1 to metamagic is big especially with Arcane Thesis, or even without it. Ever seen Cindy?

[chaos_redefined]

I'll have to look at it again before commenting, but I seem to recall an ability that allowed you to apply metamagic with a spellcraft check instead of a higher spell slot. I think that was the main problem with it.

[Urpriest]

Incantrix's -1 metamagic cost is a very nice feature. They're overpowered because of Metamagic Spell Effect and Instant Metamagic, which allow you to break the metamagic caps for anything with a duration ever (the former) and a few things without (the latter).

[valadil]

Seize concentration is fantastic. Keep in mind that no other mages will be able to deal with this. If everyone in the game had it, it would be a reasonable mechanic. With just Incantatrixes (Incatatrices?) having it, only they can steal spells.

Metamagic Effect is fantasticer. It lets you apply metamagic with a skill check. So that rounds per level buff can now be persisted. Some buffs can even be chained first and then persisted. Oh and you can do this above the slots you can usually get. Persisted 9th level buff? Sure why not.

MM Spell Trigger is also quite beautiful, as long as you have the money to fuel it.

[Aspenor]

Magelord? What? That class is pretty awful.

Basically free metamagic = Win, especially when using Persist Spell and others.

[Cadian 9th]

Mage Lord is a prestige class from Lost Empires of Faerun, it allows you to spontaneously cast any spell you have into a spell mastered with spell mastery. Also grants bonus spell mastered spells and sneak attack, requires 5th level spells and a few feats, and then evasion as a class/race ability. The 10th level capstone is that you get to apply any amount of metamagic to a spell you spontaneously cast. Basically turns wizard up to 11.

I see what you mean, however, I don't see what's so horribly broken about it. The -1 metamagic global is nice, but you do take 10 levels to get it.

EDIT: Woah, had a break then more posts.

I understand the implications. However, it doesn't seem to break anything, just improve something that improved magic which broke the game. So you get awesome ability to enhance your spells, and to enhance other casters, and steal someone else's active spell, provided caster level checks.

Powerful, yes. But gamebreaking? Really? What about Divine Metamagic? Metamagic Item? The latter especially can be used with schemas on wands, persisting spells for no level adjustment.

[sreservoir]

Mage Lord is a prestige class from Lost Empires of Faerun, it allows you to spontaneously cast any spell you have into a spell mastered with spell mastery. Also grants bonus spell mastered spells and sneak attack, requires 5th level spells and a few feats, and then evasion as a class/race ability. The 10th level capstone is that you get to apply any amount of metamagic to a spell you spontaneously cast. Basically turns wizard up to 11.

I see what you mean, however, I don't see what's so horribly broken about it. The -1 metamagic global is nice, but you do take 10 levels to get it.

mage lord requires that the spell slot you expend be greater than the spell with metamagic applied.

[Doc Roc]

mage lord requires that the spell slot you expend be greater than the spell with metamagic applied.

This. Also: Incant is incredibly easy to get into, contains superb bonus feats, great class features, full casting, and two of the most broken mechanics in the game as its limiters:

Daily spells.
Skill Checks.


Passing DC 60 is not at all difficult. I'd take Halruaan Elder over Magelord any 8 days of the week.

[Aspenor]

Yes, but to get into Magelord you need to set up to 3 feats and at least 2 levels on fire, and you can't get into it until 10th level anyway. Incantrix has prereqs that you're going to be using anyway, can enter by 6, and gets bonus feats and metamagic superiority. Not very many builds get much use out of the spontaneous casting anyway, and this can be done better with Dweomerkeeper anyway (which would also give you a domain power in the process).

The 10th level capstone is pretty much the only good part of the class. Everything before that is totally forgettable.

[Cadian 9th]

mage lord requires that the spell slot you expend be greater than the spell with metamagic applied.

Was there some errata or something, because I can't see this. It says that the level must equal or exceed the desired spell's level with metamagic applied.

[Enterti]

The reason Magelord isn't considered broken is that (without cheese) you have to play into epic to reach its capstone. The earliest way to do it without cheese is Wiz 9 Rogue 2. That means that you have to reach level 11 before you qualify for a 10 lv PrC. Not to mention the feat tax is awful.

[Eldariel]

Cooperative Spellcasting works fine with any combination of Imbue Familiar with Spell Ability, Gate, Planar Binding, Simulacrum, and company. You don't also have to specialize for Incantatrix; Evocation is fairly easy to lose as is Necromancy (you even get to keep and use the spells you learned before entering Incantatrix; learn False Life, Enervation and all that good jazz it stings far less to lose Necro).

Domain Wizard and/or Elf Generalist still get you those extra slots. Of course, specializing and losing Evo/Nec/Enc is still fine. Bit limited but Conju replicates a good bunch of that and there's always Binds. So no, the Specialization isn't that big a loss.


But basically, the OP part is applying 3+Int Metamagic to spells for free, and then applying it to 3+Int spells on casting from others effectively metamagicking (regardless of the metamagic cost) up to 6+2*Int spells (Wizard's Int tends to be considerable) daily. That's basically like being able to cast 6+2*Int spells of 6 levels higher than the maximum you can cast each day.

Oh, and -1 to all metamagic cost makes those supercharged spells of any kind (especially nukes) insanely easy to pull off and makes normal metamagicking of everything trivial. And you get it on level 15 even though it's an epic feat. Version of the feat that affects ONE metamagic is considered OP and as an Incantatrix, you have at LEAST 5 metamagic feats (4 from the class, 1 from qualification). Oh, and yeah, those bonus metamagic feats are nice.

And Seize Concentration and Metamagic Spell Trigger are both exceedingly useful and yet don't even count towards the truly OP parts of the class. They're hardly even considered when making Incantatrixes even though an entire Artificer archetype is based around Metamagic Spell Trigger and the Seize Concentration-effects are some of the very few ways to beat some sick spell-based defenses.

Instant Metamagic is very good too tho it was restricted to your maximum spell level in the errata (though Sanctum Spell and such can artificially raise that); even then, that's couple of free extra effective 9th level slots in the end. I don't mind. And this can be used on fly with no action giving you handy extra versatility. And it works with Improved Metamagic to raise the ceiling of spell levels you can cast with it. So...yeah, it's all good too.

[tyckspoon]

The reason Magelord isn't considered broken is that (without cheese) you have to play into epic to reach its capstone. The earliest way to do it without cheese is Wiz 9 Rogue 2. That means that you have to reach level 11 before you qualify for a 10 lv PrC. Not to mention the feat tax is awful.

I would have said it's just because you're still paying the full cost of your metamagics. Sure, a fully-leveled Magelord has beaten up a Sorcerer and stolen his entire class, but that's not that much stronger than just being a well-played Wizard anyway- you are supremely versatile in choosing when and how you cast your Mastered spells, but when you do cast them they aren't any better than they would be if you had prepared them normally.

Oh, and the 10k GP entry fee, which is just an obnoxious kick in the teeth on top of the rest of the entry taxes.

The Incantatrix is considered to be so strong because it lets you shove like 20 spell levels worth of metamagic into the 9-spell-level arrangement. I don't think there's another class that is quite so good at it, outside of Circle Magic.

[Cadian 9th]

The reason Magelord isn't considered broken is that (without cheese) you have to play into epic to reach its capstone. The earliest way to do it without cheese is Wiz 9 Rogue 2. That means that you have to reach level 11 before you qualify for a 10 lv PrC. Not to mention the feat tax is awful.

Good point with the Epic qualification.

Wizard 9/Bonus Feat Rogue 2/Magelord 10, yes epic. Feat tax is okay, I'd still prefer the versatility to be honest. Regardless, I can see it's not a good example.

Still, Incantrix seems to be lumped with a lot of bannage. And yet, all you do is enhance magic. Persist spells, make them effect things they shouldn't, deal more damage. It doesn't seem to me to break the wizard any more than you can already do. Granted, it makes it easier. I guess it's broken, very powerful. Worthy of banning, in the same way as initiate? More broken than an unrestricted archivist, with access to the Lyric Thamateruge? More broken than a divine metamagic cleric exploding the spell level system by applying seventeen different metamagics at once? More broken than the Celerity line?

EDIT: Eldariel makes solid points. I understand why, it's just, well, I've always found it underwhelming for it's prejudice.

Oh, and Team Solar, yeah. I loved it!

[Urpriest]

Powerful, yes. But gamebreaking? Really? What about Divine Metamagic? Metamagic Item? The latter especially can be used with schemas on wands, persisting spells for no level adjustment.

DMM is fairly limited on a per-day basis without a truly absurd amount of nightsticks. There's a reason Team Solars went for Incantatrix for their Persisting: unlimited persisted spells per day really is qualitatively different. As an Artificer you're limited to things that can be in wands (i.e. lower level) and spend a bunch of charges to do so, or use up scrolls, which aren't trivial to pile up like spell slots. Both are powerful, yes, but Incantatrix is better. And yes, it's no Beholder Mage or Tainted Scholar, but that's usually how it's described: the very border of PO, not TO.

[Cadian 9th]

DMM is fairly limited on a per-day basis without a truly absurd amount of nightsticks. There's a reason Team Solars went for Incantatrix for their Persisting: unlimited persisted spells per day really is qualitatively different. As an Artificer you're limited to things that can be in wands (i.e. lower level) and spend a bunch of charges to do so, or use up scrolls, which aren't trivial to pile up like spell slots. Both are powerful, yes, but Incantatrix is better. And yes, it's no Beholder Mage or Tainted Scholar, but that's usually how it's described: the very border of PO, not TO.

DMM still seriously breaks things. It doesn't get harder to do as you level, rather, you just get to do it more as you level up if you do it right.

Compare an Incantrix, 2/day you get to apply only one metamagic feat. If I go for a decent Charisma score and take extra turning twice, I have enough turn attempts without items to persist two spells, or apply any combination of metamagics spontaneously.

Agreed - Incantrix is incredible. As bad as people make it out to be?

[Enterti]

Still, Incantrix seems to be lumped with a lot of bannage. And yet, all you do is enhance magic. Persist spells, make them effect things they shouldn't, deal more damage. It doesn't seem to me to break the wizard any more than you can already do. Granted, it makes it easier. I guess it's broken, very powerful. Worthy of banning, in the same way as initiate? More broken than an unrestricted archivist, with access to the Lyric Thamateruge? More broken than a divine metamagic cleric exploding the spell level system by applying seventeen different metamagics at once? More broken than the Celerity line?

Quite frankly they are just as broken if not more. Incantrix can still learn every spell on the Wiz list which is pretty extensive and includes the celerity line. They can pull nearly the same amount of Metamagic Tricks as Clerics are able to with an arguably better list. Im not entirely sure how your Archivist is accessing Lyric Thamateruge as it requires Bardic music and only advances Bard Casting so it definitely overpowers that. Personally I dont ban much of anything as I tend to run this power level of character myself(just in case) and in my campaigns an Ikea Terrasque is enough to keep people from trying to break them

[Cadian 9th]

Quite frankly they are just as broken if not more. Incantrix can still learn every spell on the Wiz list which is pretty extensive and includes the celerity line. They can pull nearly the same amount of Metamagic Tricks as Clerics are able to with an arguably better list. Im not entirely sure how your Archivist is accessing Lyric Thamateruge as it requires Bardic music and only advances Bard Casting so it definitely overpowers that. Personally I dont ban much of anything as I tend to run this power level of character myself(just in case) and in my campaigns an Ikea Terrasque is enough to keep people from trying to break them

Indeed.

Lyric Thamateruge is a bard progression. Divine bard is Divine. Somewhere, a thamateruge gets the wizard/sorcerer spell that you want from 1st-6th level. Ergo, you have every wizard/sorcerer spell from 1st-6th level. :smallamused:

[Urpriest]

DMM still seriously breaks things. It doesn't get harder to do as you level, rather, you just get to do it more as you level up if you do it right.

Compare an Incantrix, 2/day you get to apply only one metamagic feat. If I go for a decent Charisma score and take extra turning twice, I have enough turn attempts without items to persist two spells, or apply any combination of metamagics spontaneously.

Agreed - Incantrix is incredible. As bad as people make it out to be?

2/day? Again, it's 3+Int. Where are you getting this 2/day? 3+Int persists per day is going to be leaps and bounds ahead of a decent Cha and two Extra Turnings.

[Aspenor]

I think you're entirely missing the Metamagic Effect ability. The one that gives you 3+INT mod/day to make spellcraft checks to modify your own spells. Combine that with 3+INT/day on allies spells, and thats a BOATLOAD of free metamagic.

Instant Metamagic isn't the broken part.

[Enterti]

Indeed.

Lyric Thamateruge is a bard progression. Divine bard is Divine. Somewhere, a thamateruge gets the wizard/sorcerer spell that you want from 1st-6th level. Ergo, you have every wizard/sorcerer spell from 1st-6th level. :smallamused:

But Archivist still doesn't qualify for it because it cant use Bardic Music... I think I'm missing something here

[Cadian 9th]

Actually, I did. I didn't realise you could apply it to your own spells... It lacks combat use, but still... Interesting.

Conceeded. The controversy attached to Incantrix is justified. However, is it in the same vein as Initiate, Beholder Mage, Tainted Scholar?

[Aspenor]

Incantrix is approximately equal to Iot7FV.

Beholder Mage and Tainted Scholar are on another level entirely.

[Enterti]

Actually, I did. I didn't realise you could apply it to your own spells... It lacks combat use, but still... Interesting.

Conceeded. The controversy attached to Incantrix is justified. However, is it in the same vein as Initiate, Beholder Mage, Tainted Scholar?

Not near as Bad as Beholder Mage, I would say its at the same level as the other two though

[Tael]

Are you kidding me? Incantatrix gives you Int+3 Persisted spells of your own, Int+3 spells you can modify of your allies, the ability to steal enemy summons, reshape existing spells, even more metamagic feats, and fantastic offensive features and capstones. It gives you the best defenses in the game, and extremely versatile and powerful offense.

Ur Priest is about as broken, but Mage Lord and Vindicator aren't anything special. Archivists and Druid are about as good as a wizard, so I have no idea what you're on about there.

EDIT:

Actually, I did. I didn't realise you could apply it to your own spells... It lacks combat use, but still... Interesting.

Conceeded. The controversy attached to Incantrix is justified. However, is it in the same vein as Initiate, Beholder Mage, Tainted Scholar?

LACKS COMBAT USE?!?

...I give up...

[Lord_Gareth]

Actually, I did. I didn't realise you could apply it to your own spells... It lacks combat use, but still... Interesting.

Conceeded. The controversy attached to Incantrix is justified. However, is it in the same vein as Initiate, Beholder Mage, Tainted Scholar?

Incantatrix is the foundation of the Mailman. There is no lacks combat use. There is only slaying gods in a single round.

[FMArthur]

Just FYI the Mystic Ranger variant can get into Magelord and finish it pre-epic. It's not a good option for them though, having terrible hit dice and BAB (why does it even have Sneak Attack? What was the line of thought there?).

[tyckspoon]

LACKS COMBAT USE?!?

...I give up...

Metamagic Effect does, yes. It can only be applied to an existing spell effect, and it takes a full-round action to do, so you're spending one round to cast a spell and then another round to improve it. Which is pretty inefficient in live combat- if you're going to take two rounds to do something, cast two spells. That's why discussion of it generally revolves around using Persistent Spell to turn what are meant to be potent short-duration 1-fight buffs into all-day prebuffs (see: Ghostform, Greater Ironguard, Superior Invisibility..)

It's the level 10 cap that is mostly used for offensive applications, although if you're willing to burn the GP you can play Blastificer at lower levels as well.

[Enterti]

Just FYI the Mystic Ranger variant can get into Magelord and finish it pre-epic. It's not a good option for them though, having terrible hit dice and BAB (why does it even have Sneak Attack? What was the line of thought there?).
Yeah but that means breaking out Dragon Mags, and once that happens balance tends to hop on the nearest bullet train away

[FMArthur]

Hey, Mystic Ranger is a great variant that is quite balanced. I didn't say anything about the stupidly-designed, WotC-made Sword of the Arcane Order feat that actually makes it into something overpowered. Dragon Magazine has a lot of interesting, quality stuff like the Soulknife feats, Mystic Ranger, and all the good parts of the Dragon Compendium.

[SurlySeraph]

Ur Priest is about as broken, but Mage Lord and Vindicator aren't anything special. Archivists and Druid are about as good as a wizard, so I have no idea what you're on about there.

Oh, Windicators are still awesome. I can't find a link, but the last "Most attacks in a round" record I saw was held by an RKV. It's quite simple: you go into one of the classes that gets Shadow Pounce, and take Shadow Blink as one of your maneuvers. Now you can spend 3 Turn Undead uses to gain a full attack - one to gain a swift action, one to recover a maneuver (using up that swift action), one to gain another swift action, and use that swift action on Shadow Blink, which lets you full attack due to Shadow Pounce.

And that's just one shenanigan that getting extra swift actions allows for.


Just FYI the Mystic Ranger variant can get into Magelord and finish it pre-epic. It's not a good option for them though, having terrible hit dice and BAB (why does it even have Sneak Attack? What was the line of thought there?).

I found another way. Wizard 9/ Initiate of the Draconic Mysteries 1/ Magelord 10. IotDM gets Evasion at 1st. Unfortunately, you have to set all your feats on fire and take Martial Study and Martial Stance to meet the SA prereq.
From the Magelord fluff and class skill list, they're supposed to be sneaky, which explains the SA; given that and Weapon Focus (ray), I assume they were supposed to work something like a Spellwarp Sniper, except with more spontaneity.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

A Spellthief/Wizard/Unseen Seer should also be able to finish Magelord pre-epic, as well.

[Enterti]

A Spellthief/Wizard/Unseen Seer should also be able to finish Magelord pre-epic, as well.

Needs evasion and Lv 5 spells before lv 10, that build gets neither

[Warlawk]

There has been a lot of good responses here that talk about the great abilities this PrC gets.

One thing to mention though is that you can't really look at the class in a vacuum. You're going to have more metamagic feats than you can shake a stick at between level feats, wiz5 bonus feat and then incantrix bonus feats.

The capstone combined with all those feats can get pretty crazy. How about an Arcane Thesis on Enervation with the capstone and a pile of metamagic feats. Twinned (easy metamagic), Chained (easy metamagic), Maximized (easy metamagic), Empowered, Repeating (easy metamagic) enervation is only a level 5 spell. That's discounting the questionable practice of using +0 metamagics to reduce the total. Heck, then you could throw on a quickened of the same as a level 7 spell (6 if you can find an Easy Metamagic for quicken as well). So that's what... 12 negative levels to a number of targets equal to your level, with another 12 negative levels at the beginning of your next turn (celerity anyone?). That's pretty sure to neuter an encounter to be completely non threatening. If you used the quickened version as well then you've dropped 24 negative levels on the first round and 24 on the second. Sure it's a ray and allows SR, but it's still going to just GUT many, many encounters with only 2 spells cast.

That is just one example because I like metamagiced eneravation. The same theory there can be applied to any spell that really tickles your fancy. The point is, don't look at the abilities in a vacuum but rather in how they are going to interact with the outright boatloads of metamagic you're going to have at your fingertips. Snatch spell is another great one. Everyone talks about summons and walls and things like that... but what about something like say... fly? Suddenly that enemy spellcaster is plummeting to the ground where your melee is waiting with glee.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Needs evasion and Lv 5 spells before lv 10, that build gets neither

Spellthief 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer 5 nets you the sneak attack and 5th level spells. A ring gets you evasion.

[Enterti]

Spellthief 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer 5 nets you the sneak attack and 5th level spells. A ring gets you evasion.

You don't need sneak attack to qualify and it specifically states that Evasion must be a Class or Racial feature, so no ring

[Thrice Dead Cat]

You don't need sneak attack to qualify and it specifically states that Evasion must be a Class or Racial feature, so no ring

Replace ring with Shape soulmeld.

[FMArthur]

At the risk of derailing further... I'm seeing no Sneak Attack prerequisite at all on Magelord. And the Ring of Evasion grants you the ability to make saves as if you had Evasion but not the actual Evasion class feature (or racial ability? :smallconfused:) that Magelord asks for. So neither the Ring of Evasion nor the Spellthief class advance you any further towards your goal of entering Yawnomatic: The Class.

[Enterti]

Replace ring with Shape soulmeld.

Still requires more than one level of an incarnum class

[SurlySeraph]

Huh, you're right. I thought it required 2d6 SA. Must have been thinking about Spellwarp Sniper.

[Fox Box Socks]

What book is Magelord from? Trying to find out via google has given me less than adequate results (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Mage_Lord_%283.5e_Prestige_Class%29) (cottage witch? 6th level psychic warrior powers? 3/4 bab? wtf?).

[SurlySeraph]

It's from Lost Empires of Faerun, and it's online. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050202a&page=2)

[Fox Box Socks]

...yeah, I'm not seeing anything an ungodly abomination X /Magelord10 can do that a Wizard5/Rogue1/Incantatrix10/Spellwarp Sniper4 can't do better.

[Doc Roc]

To seal this argument, we tested incantatrix prior to setting up the Test of Spite. Incant was basically the heart of the original ban list. I've never regretted banning it.

For comparison, we also banned spell-dancer, which is basically a far weaker incantatrix that sets your feats on fire then headbutts you in the groin.

[Tyndmyr]

Just reading over incantrix, and playtesting a bit.

I honestly don't see why it's on the automatic banlist for most games - the power of it pales, in my opinion to that off the Magelord, the Ruby Knight Vindicator, Ur Priest, Archivist and Druid. Don't get me wrong, it's a powerful prestige class. However, I don't see how Mage Lord slips in while Incantrix doesn't.

It depends on your preferred power level. Some people target tier 3 play pretty hard. Incantatrix doesn't fit that well.

That said, I am comfortable with high tier 1 play, and allow it. I've also played one, and find them awesome, but not ridiculous.


First of all, you've gotta give up another school of magic. That is actually significant.

Even with the ability to learn spells beforehand, I agree. It's not a great hardship for a generalist, but for a specialist, or focused specialist, it's quite painful. And traditional optimization says that focused specialist is fantastic. So, you do have a rather significant tradeoff there.


The main ability, cooperative metamagic, only applies to another spellcaster's magic. Seize Concentration is probably the most awesome ability, followed by the capstone -1 metamagic cost.

What? Ok, cooperative is solid if there's another caster in the party. I used it heavily with the party MT. Seize concentration is more situational. Occasionally useful, but not a terribly great reason to take the class. The MM reducer is also solid. Lets not forget the bonus MM feats. Those are extremely convenient for almost any build involving incantatrix.

However, the absolute best ability is Metamagic Effect. You cast a buff on yourself, then apply metamagic feats to it. This is a win, and ducking out of the class after it is a legitimate strategy...though tbh, staying it in is also great.


The instant metamagic is good, so is Metamagic spell trigger. I can see a build revolving around the Wand bonding feat for warforged getting supreme versatility, but the whole class seems to me to be less powerful then it gets attributed to.

Instant is nice for quickens. That said, it basically replicates a sudden metamagic feat. Those are good, but not fantastic. It's a solid ability, but hardly game breaking. You get em late in the class, and the daily uses are pretty restrictive.

Metamagic spell trigger isn't something you should have to use. Ever. It burns charges like candy, which is almost never efficient in actual play. Sure, it might be amusing in TO shenanigans with a rod of many wands, where you don't care that every round you'd be burning giant piles of gold...but in actual play? Nah. You have actual spellcasting with all sorts of metamagic goodies as is.

Nah, Metamagic Effect is the premiere ability of the class, with the flat MM reducer a solid second.

Let's put it this way...it doesn't break the game, but if the first level in it didn't progress spellcasting, it would still be a solid choice.


Snatch spell is another great one. Everyone talks about summons and walls and things like that... but what about something like say... fly? Suddenly that enemy spellcaster is plummeting to the ground where your melee is waiting with glee.

Not really. That requires two opposed caster level checks. Just dispel it.

[Douglas]

If Incantatrix had the bonus metamagic feats, the banned school, and nothing else beyond full casting progression, it would still be a decent PrC. Not great, but not bad.

Now, take that base and add no less than 3 class features that are utterly broken. They are Improved Metamagic, Metamagic Effect, and Cooperative Metamagic. These features are available at class levels 10, 3, and 2. Each one of them is individually an enormous power boost, two of them come very early, and they're all in addition to full casting and bonus metamagic feats. And then you get even more on top of that with a few other class features.

I see Team Solars has already been mentioned. That and any "mailman" builds are the primary examples of why these class features are broken. For anyone who doesn't know, "mailman" builds are named for the motto of the U.S. post office and its attitude (not entirely lived up to) that nothing - no, not even that - will prevent them from delivering the mail. A mailman build delivers damage. Lots of it. Tons of it. Enough to one-hit the Tarrasque. And it does it to anything (or very nearly so). This is typically accomplished by stacking a ridiculous amount of metamagic on one of the Orb spells, and Incantatrix's Improved Metamagic is a major part of how the sheer quantity of metamagic is made affordable.

[The Glyphstone]

Let's put it this way...it doesn't break the game, but if the first level in it didn't progress spellcasting, it would still be a solid choice.


I'd argue that Incantatrix would be worth it at 2 caster levels lost (first and last, preferably).

[Tyndmyr]

That would be pretty fair. After all, the last level does have the lovely capstone. It's certainly a point where giving up that CL would be an interesting choice.

Doing that would leave it still quite solid, but not a top-tier pick.

I put Beholder Mage and Tainted Scholar as significantly higher than Incantatrix, because both of those screw with actual gameplay a lot more. Ur priest probably deserves to be as well, but I see that class as still on the playable side of things, while BM and TS are really not.

Dweomerkeeper, Planar Shepherd are about on par with Incantatrix. Iot7v is somewhat below, because while a very strong choice, it's abilities are almost entirely defensive, while Incantatrix has both.

[Bobikus]

How do other builds like Malconokers, Shadowcraft Mages, etc compare?

[Tyndmyr]

Well, Im a bit negative on summoning builds in general. If I'm gonna be a summoner, I use an obscure class called Fiendbinder designed for truenamers. No, no, I don't actually take levels in truenamer. The levels are all wizard.

See, the trick to that is there is explicitly no duration on the bound fiends, so long as they stay within a mile of you. Sure, they cost gold. Whatever, you're a wizard. Gold is fixable, especially when you have a 1 mi radius around you filled with demons.

And, while they get a save to escape once they leave this radius...it's a one time deal. Unless they come back, they stay bound. Forever. Well, until you die + 24 hrs.

Forget about Malconvoker.

Shadowcraft Mages are aright. However, you have to keep in mind that everything they cast is an illusion or a shadow x. This does limit them to a few schools. Even with >100% reality, casting out of cantrip slots, etc...they are not quite at incantatrix level. They sort of function as a more reasonable Tainted Scholar. More usable spell slots, no worries about save DCs, etc. I'd consider them on the Iot7v tier.

[WitchSlayer]

Shouldn't a male Incantrix be called an Incantor?

[Bobikus]

The summoner builds are something I've always really liked from a fluff standpoint, although since my groups usually start at really low level, taking a level with no caster progression before getting any of their major abilities is kind of putting me off of it a little.

[Tyndmyr]

The summoner builds are something I've always really liked from a fluff standpoint, although since my groups usually start at really low level, taking a level with no caster progression before getting any of their major abilities is kind of putting me off of it a little.

Fiendbinder has the same basic problem. The first, fourth, and some later level do not progress casting. That said, you don't need to take more than three levels., and you get to bind starting at level one. Sure, it's only Babau at the first level, but an indefinite number of CR 6 slaves at level 8 is still pretty awesome, and they do have some useful SLAs.

Indefinite amounts of dispels are certainly useful.

You do basically play as a normal wizard for the first seven levels though. You waste some skill points and a feat qualifying, but at the very earliest levels, summoning is just not practical.

Only exception I can think of is from frostburn. You can summon critters with the Ice Beast template via that...and one of the abilities you can have granted by that is a weak breath weapon. It doesn't stay useful, but breath weaponing minions is fairly good when things have low hp.

[Bobikus]

Might try something less summon focused for my group then anyway, since I know level progression is going to be a bit slower than normal.

[Gavinfoxx]

The correct nomenclature, as far as I know, is Incantatrix or Incantatar.

[Cadian 9th]

Still requires more than one level of an incarnum class

Technically, a level in Incarnate followed by Open Least Chakra (Foot) would do the job.

Ironically, the same dip would get you mage's spectacles for +6 or so spellcraft... for incantrix.

Also, my comment on Metamagic Effect lacking combat utility is that it requires a full round action that provokes attacks of opportunity. It's still very powerful...

Oh, two cents. Improved Metamagic RAW says " Min +1 ". Which means that Extend, purify, widen, still, silent, for example, cannot be affected by it. Still, empower goes to +1 and persist to +5, an easy metamagic and arcane thesis, perhaps a practical metamagic (Spontaneous Diviner) would do very well.

However. Is the ability to make spells hurt more, affect a larger area, and last longer really that awesome? The latter conserves spell slots and actions. The damage dealing one, in my opinion is like... eh, so I go from killing someone with a save or die to... killing them with a save or die. Granted, streamers, for example, benefits, but by and large damage has never really been the OMG SO BROKEN factor of magic.

The best metamagics, in my mind, have been Persist, Quicken, Chain and Invisible spell, in addition to Sculpt spell. Persist saves me actions and spell slots, quicken saves me actions, chain also saves me actions, and Invisible is just awesome fun, and finally sculpt saves me actions from having to cast energy immunity on teammates before my empowered fireball.

[blazingshadow]

i think i'm blind but i can't for the life of me see this metamagic effect ability in the class are you guys talking about the old version or the new one?

[Douglas]

We're talking about the most recent one, which is in Player's Guide to Faerun.

[tyckspoon]

However. Is the ability to make spells hurt more, affect a larger area, and last longer really that awesome? The latter conserves spell slots and actions. The damage dealing one, in my opinion is like... eh, so I go from killing someone with a save or die to... killing them with a save or die. Granted, streamers, for example, benefits, but by and large damage has never really been the OMG SO BROKEN factor of magic.


'Last Longer' is, when you're talking about very powerful 1 round/level effects that you can now make last 24 hours. Hurt more.. requires some stacking. It's not all that special when you're just adding on Empower, that's true. But when your spell is Empowered, Maximized, Twinned, Admixtured (and Substituted, because Substituting a Fire spell to be Fire is a really cheap way to ab/use Arcane Thesis), and Searing.. well, now you have a spell that does double max damage, does an additional half of that, is almost completely unresistable, and gets cast twice in one action. That takes your blasting from "save or take damage" to "save and die anyway, thanks." The Incantatrix capstone makes that work. And you should probably have an Arcane Thesis on that killspell, so.. that'd be Empowered for free, Maximized at +1, Twinned at +2, Admixture for +2, Searing for free, Substituted for -1. 14 levels worth of metamagic, and you only paid 4. Even on a humble Fireball you're getting several hundred points of damage from that, and it's by far not the most efficient spell to do this with.

[Douglas]

'Last Longer' is, when you're talking about very powerful 1 round/level effects that you can now make last 24 hours.
Try the ones that last 1 round. Like Wraithstrike.

[Bobikus]

Could someone give some advice on how to really build well into an incantatrix build starting at low level?

[Alleran]

Could someone give some advice on how to really build well into an incantatrix build starting at low level?
All you need is (off the top of my head) to not have Abjuration as a barred school, have the Iron Will feat (Otyugh Hole is a location that can easily get you the feat for 2000-3000gp), and be a 5th level arcane caster (so 5th level).

[Cadian 9th]

'Last Longer' is, when you're talking about very powerful 1 round/level effects that you can now make last 24 hours. Hurt more.. requires some stacking. It's not all that special when you're just adding on Empower, that's true. But when your spell is Empowered, Maximized, Twinned, Admixtured (and Substituted, because Substituting a Fire spell to be Fire is a really cheap way to ab/use Arcane Thesis), and Searing.. well, now you have a spell that does double max damage, does an additional half of that, is almost completely unresistable, and gets cast twice in one action. That takes your blasting from "save or take damage" to "save and die anyway, thanks." The Incantatrix capstone makes that work. And you should probably have an Arcane Thesis on that killspell, so.. that'd be Empowered for free, Maximized at +1, Twinned at +2, Admixture for +2, Searing for free, Substituted for -1. 14 levels worth of metamagic, and you only paid 4. Even on a humble Fireball you're getting several hundred points of damage from that, and it's by far not the most efficient spell to do this with.

See the 3.5 FaQ, it doesn't use a lower level slot...

I know that, but in selecting Arcane Thesis for a damage spell and taking 6 metamagic feats, you've burned 7 feats (some of which may be bonus), to be able to kill things dead. Sure, seriously kill anything, but chances are it'll cause DM escalation. I'd rather rely on the warblade and rogue to deal damage, while I focus on rearranging the universe to help.

The build you suggested is, Wizard 5/Incantrix 10 so a 15th level warblade with Ruby Nightmare blade, leap attack and a big weapon is dealing 10d6+160, in addition to anything else a warblade can do. Chances are damage dealing can be covered by someone else. :smallcool:

Agreed on the persist. Wraithstrike, heh.

[Warlawk]

See the 3.5 FaQ, it doesn't use a lower level slot...

I know that, but in selecting Arcane Thesis for a damage spell and taking 6 metamagic feats, you've burned 7 feats (some of which may be bonus), to be able to kill things dead.

6 of those feats can be applied to a host of other spells you will be using, so they are far from "burned". The approach I took with my incantrix was to arcane thesis a couple of choice spells and then stack reduced metamagics into a host of other things as well, while using my arcane thesis spells as the core to build around. Additionally, 6 metamagic feats is not really a stretch for a wizard/incantrix.

1st level feat (maybe a bonus if human)
3rd level feat
5th level wizard bonus feat
from 6th to 15th you get a bonus metamagic feat at the same level you get your normal feat from leveling.

I mean, seriously you get 4 bonus metamagic feats just from the PrC. If you're building one in the first place you're probably planning on pushing metamagic pretty heavily in your build so it's not exactly a hardship.

Just for the record I didn't even try to mess with the arcane thesis and 0 adjustment metamagic shuffle. I think it's crap and outright gaming the system. I Told my DM upfront "This is what it says, this is the RAW interpretation a lot of people use, but I think that's abusive and won't be using that interpretation."

[Cadian 9th]

6 of those feats can be applied to a host of other spells you will be using, so they are far from "burned". The approach I took with my incantrix was to arcane thesis a couple of choice spells and then stack reduced metamagics into a host of other things as well, while using my arcane thesis spells as the core to build around. Additionally, 6 metamagic feats is not really a stretch for a wizard/incantrix.

1st level feat (maybe a bonus if human)
3rd level feat
5th level wizard bonus feat
from 6th to 15th you get a bonus metamagic feat at the same level you get your normal feat from leveling.

I mean, seriously you get 4 bonus metamagic feats just from the PrC. If you're building one in the first place you're probably planning on pushing metamagic pretty heavily in your build so it's not exactly a hardship.

Just for the record I didn't even try to mess with the arcane thesis and 0 adjustment metamagic shuffle. I think it's crap and outright gaming the system. I Told my DM upfront "This is what it says, this is the RAW interpretation a lot of people use, but I think that's abusive and won't be using that interpretation."

Amen. That kind of gaming really annoys me...

Other than that, I was more pointing out that the damage metamagics you were picking up, while they can be applied to other damage spells (and perhaps wall of fire and that kind of spell), they're still damage spells. As I said, I find that, as a wizard/any caster really, dealing massive amounts of damage is what annoys other people the most - I find that sticking to buffing and mild Battlefield control is what makes people happy.

[Warlawk]

Amen. That kind of gaming really annoys me...

Other than that, I was more pointing out that the damage metamagics you were picking up, while they can be applied to other damage spells (and perhaps wall of fire and that kind of spell), they're still damage spells. As I said, I find that, as a wizard/any caster really, dealing massive amounts of damage is what annoys other people the most - I find that sticking to buffing and mild Battlefield control is what makes people happy.

Well, I wasn't actually the one suggesting that combo of metamagic, I was just commenting on it. Personally I tend more toward the debuff/control aspect which was problematic. I generally do not play casters and I played one in this last game and it quickly became a balance issue. Our group is low optimization and tends to sit solidly in the tier 3/4 range. Our DMs tend to make an active effort to try and give melee/martial characters their chance to shine, monks are only just a little bit behind the curve and sword/board is an acceptable choice.

Sooooo when I played a wizard for the second time in 3.5 and came to the game with a well researched full blown god caster (elven generalist domain wizard going into incantrix), it quickly became a problem. Stacked metamagic with debuffs and controls gets ugly quickly. Battlefield control and buffing is pretty rock solid as well, but for a solid T3 group I really think that a blasting caster is the way to go. You can remain effective without completely overshadowing the rest of the group. I willingly retired my wizard at like level 7 because it was starting to become an issue. I could gut encounters in an action or 2, leaving the other players on cleanup duty with opponents that weren't terribly threatening. I think blasting is better for game balance, but not my cup of tea.

[tyckspoon]

See the 3.5 FaQ, it doesn't use a lower level slot...


FAQ and Errata confirm that you cannot reduce the end level of the spell below its original slot. They do not deny reducing an individual metamagic to a negative, as long as the sum of the whole thing isn't negative. (Also the FAQ is outdated in that matter, as the answers for Arcane Thesis are flat contradicted by the errata for Arcane Thesis, which does specify that the reduction is per-metamagic and not just once for the whole spell.)

[valadil]

We're talking about the most recent one, which is in Player's Guide to Faerun.

Incidentally the 3.0 version on WotC's website plays reasonably well. It's powerful but not broken.

[Kalirren]

The reason Magelord isn't considered broken is that (without cheese) you have to play into epic to reach its capstone. The earliest way to do it without cheese is Wiz 9 Rogue 2. That means that you have to reach level 11 before you qualify for a 10 lv PrC. Not to mention the feat tax is awful.

What qualifies as cheese? A 2-level dip into Spelldancer (Magic of Faerun, so it's even the same universe) gives you evasion (which is what you need the rogue 2 for) without the loss of a caster level. Wiz 9 Spelldancer 2 Magelord 10 still finishes the class by 21 though.

Agree about the super-high feat tax, though. You need 3 bonus feats to do it, so a human with 2 flaws can do it, or any race can do it with 2 flaws by giving up the familiar for a feat. (8 feats are required to pull this off: Imp. Initiative, Signature Spell, Combat Casting, Weapon Focus (Ray), Dodge, Mobility, Endurance, and Spell Mastery. Match them up: 2 from flaws, 1 from human/familiar, 1, 3, 6, 9, and Spell Mastery comes from Wizard 5.)

[Doc Roc]

What qualifies as cheese? A 1-level dip into Spelldancer (Magic of Faerun, so it's even the same universe) gives you evasion (which is what you need the rogue 2 for) without the loss of a caster level. Wiz 9 Spelldancer 1 Magelord 10 finishes the class by 20.

Agree about the super-high feat tax, though. You need 3 bonus feats to do it, so a human with 2 flaws can do it, or any race can do it with 2 flaws by giving up the familiar for a feat. (8 feats are required to pull this off: Imp. Initiative, Signature Spell, Combat Casting, Weapon Focus (Ray), Dodge, Mobility, Endurance, and Spell Mastery. Match them up: 2 from flaws, 1 from human/familiar, 1, 3, 6, 9, and Spell Mastery comes from Wizard 5.)

Spelldancer is wildly superior to Magelord, though, and I don't see where you're getting your SA from.

[Kalirren]

Spelldancer is wildly superior to Magelord, though, and I don't see where you're getting your SA from.

That's a totally fair point. It's the same one I raised to the person who gave me this progression.

As has been said before, Magelord doesn't require Sneak Attack, it just gives it. What Magelord does require is Evasion, which is why most people slap in the Feat Rogue 2. You take your pick, 6 feats and finishing the class at level 21 or 2 caster levels and finishing the class at level 20. I honestly don't know what I'd choose.

[Doc Roc]

That's a totally fair point. It's the same one I raised to the person who gave me this progression.

As has been said before, Magelord doesn't require Sneak Attack, it just gives it. What Magelord does require is Evasion, which is why most people slap in the Feat Rogue 2. You take your pick, 6 feats and finishing the class at level 21 or 2 caster levels and finishing the class at level 20. I honestly don't know what I'd choose.

To be perfectly honest, Spelldancer is an obscenity. We actually banned it due to the only pre-fight concession ever to occur in ToS.

[Tyndmyr]

i think i'm blind but i can't for the life of me see this metamagic effect ability in the class are you guys talking about the old version or the new one?

Yeah, the magic of faerun version, while outdated, is significantly less potent. It's still useful, but it's hardly overpowered.

It does get the capstone one level earlier though, which makes it situationally better for extreme corner cases in maximizing MM reducers. Generally inferior for practical use, though.

[Gullintanni]

Only exception I can think of is from frostburn. You can summon critters with the Ice Beast template via that...and one of the abilities you can have granted by that is a weak breath weapon. It doesn't stay useful, but breath weaponing minions is fairly good when things have low hp.

Wouldn't this stay practical in a more low-level setting...ie. E6? How effective do you think the Ice Beast conjurer would be?

[Aspenor]

Spelldancer doesn't get evasion until its 2nd level.


Wouldn't this stay practical in a more low-level setting...ie. E6? How effective do you think the Ice Beast conjurer would be?

I'm going to assume Tyndmyr meant taking levels in Frost Mage (a rather weak PrC) because Conjure Ice Beast is only a Druid/Cleric spell unless added to the wizard/sorc list in some manner. By the time you get the spells on your list, they are horribly out of date and the breath weapon is useless.

[Gullintanni]

I'm going to assume Tyndmyr meant taking levels in Frost Mage (a rather weak PrC) because Conjure Ice Beast is only a Druid/Cleric spell unless added to the wizard/sorc list in some manner.

Ok well in order to clerify then, I am playing as a Cleric. Opinion?

[Aspenor]

Ok well in order to clerify then, I am playing as a Cleric. Opinion?

It might be okay at low levels. Probably not worth it after level 7 ish, but I don't have the time to crank the numbers.

[Gullintanni]

It might be okay at low levels. Probably not worth it after level 7 ish, but I don't have the time to crank the numbers.

Right on. E6 progression ends at...well...level 6 :smallsmile:

[Aspenor]

Right on. E6 progression ends at...well...level 6 :smallsmile:

lol for some reason i didn't connect these two threads. hi again....

and yeah, I never play E6. I've heard it works well, it's just not my bag o dice. I like high level play, rockets and all.

[Tyndmyr]

Wouldn't this stay practical in a more low-level setting...ie. E6? How effective do you think the Ice Beast conjurer would be?

It's probably one of the better low-level summoner options. Frankly, E6 isn't that kind to most minion options. Asp is correct that if you wait to PrC levels to get it, it's kinda pointless. It's a first level thing. As a divine caster, it's a decentish option at low levels.

Dread Necro is probably superior for E6, though.

[Kalirren]

Spelldancer doesn't get evasion until its 2nd level.

You're right. I'm wrong. I misremembered that build (which should be Wiz 9 / Spelldancer 2 / Magelord X) being able to get to Magelord 10 pre-epic. It only manages to enter Magelord without losing caster levels. (Which is still an improvement over Feat Rogue 2, I think.)

[faceroll]

Try the ones that last 1 round. Like Wraithstrike.

Yeah, that one's rough. Assassin would get that, murder everything.


See the 3.5 FaQ, it doesn't use a lower level slot...

I know that, but in selecting Arcane Thesis for a damage spell and taking 6 metamagic feats, you've burned 7 feats (some of which may be bonus), to be able to kill things dead. Sure, seriously kill anything, but chances are it'll cause DM escalation. I'd rather rely on the warblade and rogue to deal damage, while I focus on rearranging the universe to help.

The build you suggested is, Wizard 5/Incantrix 10 so a 15th level warblade with Ruby Nightmare blade, leap attack and a big weapon is dealing 10d6+160, in addition to anything else a warblade can do. Chances are damage dealing can be covered by someone else. :smallcool:

Agreed on the persist. Wraithstrike, heh.

Meh. Limited wish to replicate a psychic reformation, and you get to repick all your feats. Go with Gray Elf and Chaos Shuffle your 5 racial feats into something else. Persist Heroics gets you a bonus feat. Persist Bite of the WereX gets you bonus feats. Paying gold, being near a familiar, having an item all gets you feats. Chaos Shuffle turns those into moar damage.

[Tyndmyr]

You're right. I'm wrong. I misremembered that build (which should be Wiz 9 / Spelldancer 2 / Magelord X) being able to get to Magelord 10 pre-epic. It only manages to enter Magelord without losing caster levels. (Which is still an improvement over Feat Rogue 2, I think.)

The only stumbling block is Evasion?

Ring of Evasion is what, 25k gold? Significant, but might be possible by 9th level.

Initiate of the Draconic Mysteries, from Draconomicon might also be of use. It's not something I'd normally consider, since it requires terrible feats to get in, but it does give you evasion at first level, and it can be entered at level 6.

Shadow template. Grants Evasion, but +2 LA. Viable with buyoff.

Good odds on one of those being a viable method of getting into the cast without wasting two levels on rogue or whatever.

[faceroll]

The only stumbling block is Evasion?

Ring of Evasion is what, 25k gold? Significant, but might be possible by 9th level.

Initiate of the Draconic Mysteries, from Draconomicon might also be of use. It's not something I'd normally consider, since it requires terrible feats to get in, but it does give you evasion at first level, and it can be entered at level 6.

Shadow template. Grants Evasion, but +2 LA. Viable with buyoff.

Good odds on one of those being a viable method of getting into the cast without wasting two levels on rogue or whatever.

Ring of Evasion won't work, as it's not a racial ability or class feature. Other two should work.

[Tyndmyr]

Oh, the class specifically requires that? Harsh. I usually turn to equipment first to circumvent such things. Especially if it's a requirement that being in the class for a while will fix.

[Veyr]

How do other builds like Malconokers, Shadowcraft Mages, etc compare?
Malconvokers are quite balanced, losing a spellcrafting level in order to be extra-good at summoning - it's actually effective at what PrCs are supposed to be, which is specializing.

Shadowcraft Mages are broken as hell. They're probably worse than Incantatrices. Planar Shepherd, Tainted Scholar, and Dweormerkeeper are also probably worse. Beholder Mage and Illithid Savant are right-out. Don't even get me started on first-level Kobold ex-Paladins... For reference, Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil comes to mind as the sort of "next most broken thing" - it's not as bad as Incantatrix, but it's still incredibly powerful.

[The Glyphstone]

Malconvokers are quite balanced, losing a spellcrafting level in order to be extra-good at summoning - it's actually effective at what PrCs are supposed to be, which is specializing.

Shadowcraft Mages are broken as hell. They're probably worse than Incantatrices. Planar Shepherd, Tainted Scholar, and Dweormerkeeper are also probably worse. Beholder Mage and Illithid Savant are right-out. Don't even get me started on first-level Kobold ex-Paladins... For reference, Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil comes to mind as the sort of "next most broken thing" - it's not as bad as Incantatrix, but it's still incredibly powerful.

SCM is only Incantatrix-level if you allow Shadow Miracles, which some don't. Otherwise, they're just an illusionist-specialist with decent blasting output (it takes Dragon Magazine material to get the 100+% reality illusions, which again some don't allow). The Ugly Six are the Tainted Scholar, Dweomerkeeper, Planar Shephard, Beholder Mage, Illithid Savant, and Incantatrix. SCM can be nasty, but it's hard to get it up to their level.

[Aspenor]

Shadowcraft Mages aren't nearly as broken if you don't go with the more lenient interpretation of Arcane Disciple for picking up XP free Miracles. Extremely strong, yes, but not nearly as bad.

The more strict interpretation is that Arcane Disciple while adding the spells to YOUR spell list, does not add the spells to the Wizard/Sorcerer spell list. This removes the XP free Miracle from the equation.

I'm not saying either interpretation is right, I'm just saying there's two ways to read it and one has a more balanced outcome.

[FMArthur]

It also however has the ability to spontaneously cast from all of Conjuration and Evocation, and do so at full or greater power with some of the Shadow optimization I've seen. Conjuration is obviously the important bit there; they can be far better conjurers than Conjurers this way; it also does this in five levels and can be entered very early. Whether that bumps them up over Incantatrices is a matter of opinion. If you combine the two, you can permanently ruin any DM's eyeballs as they roll past their physical extremes.

[Cadian 9th]

What about the planaar environment spell on the dark creature, getting +30% shadow reality, stacking with Shadowcrafter and Shadowcraft mage for >120% reality, so that you want them to fail their will save against it?

Also, how would we cover Illusion disbelief in PvP? DM rolls will save? Otherwise it becomes too obvious.

[faceroll]

What about the planaar environment spell on the dark creature, getting +30% shadow reality, stacking with Shadowcrafter and Shadowcraft mage for >120% reality, so that you want them to fail their will save against it?

Also, how would we cover Illusion disbelief in PvP? DM rolls will save? Otherwise it becomes too obvious.

Using planar bubble+shadow template is necessary for the SCM's trick to work on outer planes, as those are not connected to the plane of shadow. [Shadow] spells fail in, say, the Abyss, because the plane of shadow doesn't overlap it.

[Claudius Maximus]

I see where you're coming from, but where does it say that, by RAW?

As far as I can remember, shadow magic works on any plane.

[Cadian 9th]

Makes spells ~10% more real. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/planes.htm#planeOfShadow)

Stacked with Shadowcraft mage +20%, based 10% per spell level used, and Shadowcrafter +20% for Shadow Conjuration and Evocation. Coupled with Enhanced Shadow Reality, this leads to a more real than real spell...

A greater Shadow evocation is 60%+10% shadow plane environment+20% shadowcraft mage+20% Shadowcrafter+20% Enhanced Shadow Reality = 130% real.

It's more real than a real spell! :smallbiggrin:

[faceroll]

I see where you're coming from, but where does it say that, by RAW?

As far as I can remember, shadow magic works on any plane.

Manual of the Planes or Planar Handbook, forget which one. Probably the former, on the chapter on magic of the planes.

[Aspenor]

Using planar bubble+shadow template is necessary for the SCM's trick to work on outer planes, as those are not connected to the plane of shadow. [Shadow] spells fail in, say, the Abyss, because the plane of shadow doesn't overlap it.

That's only true in the D&D multiverse described in the DMG and MoP, IIRC. Since planar cosmologies are typically variable according to the DM, this may or may not be the case given any particular setting.

With myself, as DM, there are multiple planes of Shadow, each connected to another, particular, plane.

[faceroll]

That's only true in the D&D multiverse described in the DMG and MoP, IIRC. Since planar cosmologies are typically variable according to the DM, this may or may not be the case given any particular setting.

With myself, as DM, there are multiple planes of Shadow, each connected to another, particular, plane.

Meh, houserules are houserules.

[Zaydos]

I see where you're coming from, but where does it say that, by RAW?

As far as I can remember, shadow magic works on any plane.

Manual of the Planes talks about it.

[Claudius Maximus]

Could I get a citation that you need to be on a plane coterminous with the Shadow to use shadow spells and effects?

I'm not all entrenched against the idea, I just want to know the actual rules on the matter, and I can't really check myself right now.

[Aspenor]

Meh, houserules are houserules.
True, but I don't know if, say, Faerun uses that cosmology design, and I am certain that Eberron doesn't. What is RAW is dependent on the setting. The rules specify that the DM designs the setting, and so what is RAW is dependent on what the DM says.

Silly, maybe. :smallbiggrin:


Could I get a citation that you need to be on a plane coterminous with the Shadow to use shadow spells and effects?

I'm not all entrenched against the idea, I just want to know the actual rules on the matter, and I can't really check myself right now.
Personally, I know of none that state such.

[Veyr]

I thought the Plane of Shadow was like the Astral Plane, that it stretched between/behind all of the planes?

Anyway, as has been said, that's definitely a very setting-specific rule. It's pretty sensible for the cosmology described in Planescape, for example (and I'm pretty sure that's roughly the default cosmology), but I don't think it's quite a "default" rule.

[Tyndmyr]

SCM is only Incantatrix-level if you allow Shadow Miracles, which some don't. Otherwise, they're just an illusionist-specialist with decent blasting output (it takes Dragon Magazine material to get the 100+% reality illusions, which again some don't allow). The Ugly Six are the Tainted Scholar, Dweomerkeeper, Planar Shephard, Beholder Mage, Illithid Savant, and Incantatrix. SCM can be nasty, but it's hard to get it up to their level.

Even the >100% reality isn't that horrific. It just allows a bit o' extra damage on the blasting, generally. A bonus 30% damage is nice, but it's hardly crazy. If that's broken, empower would be broken. And it's not even guaranteed. They could always fail the save. Heck, once they realize it's a killer gnome, intentionally failing the will save is not a bad idea.

Nah, the fun part of the shadowcraft gnome is the sheer flexibility within those few schools. There's power in that, but it's really just like a crazed wizard/sorc blend, really.

[Veyr]

Isn't there some way to cast any spell ever from 0th level spell slots as a Killer Gnome?

[Cadian 9th]

Could I get a citation that you need to be on a plane coterminous with the Shadow to use shadow spells and effects?

I'm not all entrenched against the idea, I just want to know the actual rules on the matter, and I can't really check myself right now.


PLANAR BUBBLE
Abjuration
Level: Cleric 7, sorcerer/wizard 7
Components: V, S, M/DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Area: 10-ft.-radius emanation from touched creature
Duration: 10 min./level
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: No; see text
This spell creates an area around the target creature that emulates its native planar environment.
Thus, a character hailing from the Material Plane would have normal gravity, temperature, magic, and so on. This spell cast on a native of the Plane of Shadow would make the area around her have normal gravity, a mild neutral alignment, enhanced shadow spells, and impeded light spells.
Material Components: A sprinkling of silver dust.

Yeah....

Indeed, the flexibility of Shadowcraft Mage is insane - as we all know, earth spell or a Practical Meta/Easy Meta/Incantrix :smalltongue: We can get access to any evocation, conjuration Summon, conjuration Creation, of any level, in addition to Shadow Conjuration and all that jazz (Such as Shades).

Sorcerers, surprisingly, or beguilers, seriously benefit from this.

[Bobikus]

How good is Anima mage? I've heard about it a couple times but haven't found much on it.

[Tyndmyr]

Isn't there some way to cast any spell ever from 0th level spell slots as a Killer Gnome?

Right. Well, not any spell ever. Any spell on the wiz/sorc list that's illusion, evocation or conjuration. This is still quite good, but it's a far cry from any spell ever.

However, sheer volume of spell slots is less game breaking than it first appears. Consider, the Theurges typically have a quantity of spell slots larger than they generally go through in a day, yet are not in any way OP as a result.

Nah, it's the terrific flexibility that's the great thing. Think of every time you wish you had prepared or learned a specific spell that would be really really handy right now. If this happens a lot, playing a killer gnome will be fantastic for you. If it really doesn't...it's not going to be a big deal. This varies quite a lot between people and even campaigns.

[Aspenor]

How good is Anima mage? I've heard about it a couple times but haven't found much on it.

Anima mage is strong, since free metamagic is strong. It also has the bonus flexibility of binder, so you can pick up some useful and cool at-will abilities every day, depending on what you think the party will be doing. It's no incantrix, but it's a good class overall.

Of course, start mixing Anima Mage with Tainted Scholar, and things start getting ugly. Bind Naberius and use Blood Metamagic and watch your DM cry. At higher levels, bind Zycll (or whatever that summon monster vestige happens to be), and it gets crazy.

[Veyr]

Anima Mage is also interesting because of the poor wording on its Soul Binding class feature: you don't actually need any Binder levels to qualify (thanks to Bind Vestige and Improved Bind Vestige), and then Anima Mage progresses you as if you'd taken levels in Binder even if you don't already have levels in Binder. Which makes a Wizard/Anima Mage possible...

But barring that cheese, it's otherwise a theurge-type that has actual meaningful class features, which means it's A-OK in my book.

[Aspenor]

Anima Mage is also interesting because of the poor wording on its Soul Binding class feature: you don't actually need any Binder levels to qualify (thanks to Bind Vestige and Improved Bind Vestige), and then Anima Mage progresses you as if you'd taken levels in Binder even if you don't already have levels in Binder. Which makes a Wizard/Anima Mage possible...

But barring that cheese, it's otherwise a theurge-type that has actual meaningful class features, which means it's A-OK in my book.
Typically, entering as a pure wizard is often viewed as sub-par compared to entering as a Binder/Wizard with Improved Vestige. By RAW, I don't believe Anima Mage will increase your EBL if you don't have an actual level in the binder class. This is because the wording in Binder and Anima Mage grants the bonus to your Soul Binding bonus, which a character with the Bind/Improved Bind Vestige feats does not actually have.

The Wizard/Binder/Anima Mage will get access to the Summon Monster vestige at EBL 12, which has Win and Awesome written all over it.

[faceroll]

Could I get a citation that you need to be on a plane coterminous with the Shadow to use shadow spells and effects?

I'm not all entrenched against the idea, I just want to know the actual rules on the matter, and I can't really check myself right now.

Manual of the Planes, pg 62, last paragraph of sidebar:
"Within D&D cosmology, the Plane of Shadows connects only with the Astral Plan and the Material Plane. The above limitations apply when a traveler is on an Inner Plane or an Outer Plane."

Those limitations being:
[Some] illusions with the Shadow descriptor don't work, including the bread & butter spells of SCM.
Can't summon monsters from the Plane of Shadow.
Spells with an effect based on the plane of shadow don't have that part of the spell work, like shadowblast.


Nah, the fun part of the shadowcraft gnome is the sheer flexibility within those few schools. There's power in that, but it's really just like a crazed wizard/sorc blend, really.

It's good if you can't get all the spells you want, but if you're having trouble balancing combat & utility spells, there's a feat, Uncanny Forethought, that let's you spontaneously cast any known spell as a full round action.


Right. Well, not any spell ever. Any spell on the wiz/sorc list that's illusion, evocation or conjuration. This is still quite good, but it's a far cry from any spell ever.

Note that conjuration (calling) and (teleportation) can't be duplicated. And using Shadow Miracles (f your DM is actually a cat or stuffed animal) you can duplicate just about anything.