So, I have a character with 1 Charisma... How bout you?

[Jinn Master]

I'm trying to think of creative ways to describe why he has a Charisma so miserably low. He also only has a strength of 8, as well, so I figure I can tap into that. He is a dwarven druid, as well, so he's breaking all kinds of molds.

Anyway, while I struggle with this somewhat unwieldy background I'm making, I was wondering if any of you guys have had slightly ridiculously handicapped characters before, just from the roll of the dice. If so, how did that work out for you?

I'm sure I'm doomed to have someone chasing me from anger almost constantly.

Str- 8
Dex- 15
Con- 12
Int- 16
Wis- 18
Cha- 1


EDIT: Have it fairly well worked out now in this post. Further comments are appreciated- this is going to be a bit of a challenge. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10527079&postcount=21)

[Lord.Sorasen]

I don't know about you, but when I read 1 charisma and dwarf, I immediately think of Tyrion Lannister.

[RTGoodman]

What are his Intelligence and Wisdom scores? Those are helpful in figuring out how to roleplay him.


Charisma measures a character’s force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness. This ability represents actual strength of personality, not merely how one is perceived by others in a social setting. Charisma is most important for paladins, sorcerers, and bards. It is also important for clerics, since it affects their ability to turn undead. Every creature has a Charisma score.

From that, it seems like you are ALWAYS a follower, and that people tend to instantly dislike you IF they even notice you at all. You're not necessarily UGLY, but you're probably not a real looker, either; you're the most nondescript, generic looking person ever. You probably don't even have the wherewithal to speak in groups, and no one will listen to you anyway.

[FMArthur]

I think he'd have a sense of self, purpose and "force of personality" so weak that he would have to have some kind of mental disorder. One thing it is not is a measure of how grumpy he is or how likely he is to instantly cause the worst possible social outcome (ie. "attack!") by merely speaking with the wrong numbers laid out on the dice.

[The Glyphstone]

Charisma 1 would be like severe autism - you're barely capable of recognizing that the world around you is a separate thing from yourself. You have no interpersonal skills whatsoever, and are completely uninteresting to anyone.

[Jinn Master]

Str- 8
Dex- 15
Con- 12
Int- 16
Wis- 18
Cha- 1

I got the full gamut of rolls, from lowest to highest and everything in between.
I'm figuring on playing him as a strong of will, reserved guy who has a throat injury and several others- mostly ugly as sin from whatever conflict it took to get him to lvl 4. Possibly being hanged for poaching with a last minute reprieve, which would be hilarious for a druid in a horrible, horrible way.

The original rolls were 8, 15, 10, 16, 18, 3. I rolled his race, and everything else randomly. All I chose was his class, since I've wanted to play a druid forever.

I've always perceived Charisma as not your sense of self, but your ability to communicate it to others.


Lord Sorasen- pretty much.

[VirOath]

Ummmm, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it written that Racial Modifiers can never lower a stat below 3? Because, 3 is the base requirement for living a normal life.

If you apply a -2 to a stat that is already a 3, it just stays a 3 and never lowers.

[Jinn Master]

That would be nice if that was the case, but I didn't see it when I was factoring Dwarven traits. Let me break out my book again.

[RTGoodman]

Ummmm, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it written that Racial Modifiers can never lower a stat below 3? Because, 3 is the base requirement for living a normal life.

That's only for Intelligence, I'm pretty sure. 1-2 Int is at Animal level; you need a 3 Int or higher to even be of sentient intelligence.

[Lord.Sorasen]

That's only for Intelligence, I'm pretty sure. 1-2 Int is at Animal level; you need a 3 Int or higher to even be of sentient intelligence.

The description for half-orc states specifically that the -2 int cannot push it below 3, but says nothing about charisma, so I imagine this is the case here.

If this is the case, does that mean one could play with 0 charisma, and be an object?

[Jinn Master]

I have the equivalent charisma of a Zombie, a Golem, or a Shrieker, according to the PHB. It does not affect my sense of self worth, but it does affect my appearance, ability to lead, personal magnetism, persuasiveness, and force of personality.

So I can have him as an ugly as sin, reserved loner druid who works with people when he needs to, but generally keeps his mouth shut because people either ignore him entirely anyway, or they always take what he says the wrong way.

[Vangor]

That's only for Intelligence, I'm pretty sure. 1-2 Int is at Animal level; you need a 3 Int or higher to even be of sentient intelligence.

Indeed, strictly intelligence:


If these changes put your score above 18 or below 3, that's okay except in the case of Intelligence, which does not go below 3 for characters. (If your half-orc character would have an adjusted Intelligence of 1 or 2, make it 3 instead.)

The following page with racial ability adjustments mentions this rule again.

[RTGoodman]

If this is the case, does that mean one could play with 0 charisma, and be an object?

No. A character with a Charisma score of 0 immediately falls into a coma. (Same for the other mental ability scores.)

[Callista]

Charisma 1 would be like severe autism - you're barely capable of recognizing that the world around you is a separate thing from yourself. You have no interpersonal skills whatsoever, and are completely uninteresting to anyone.Ditto. Autism affects charisma primarily. A 1 is a very low score; so you're not just looking at run-of-the-mill autism here; we're talking outright non-verbal or partly-verbal even in adulthood, the kind of autism they use for poster children in "awareness" campaigns. Assume your character has a very hard time understanding other people, a very hard time communicating, and a difficult time with language. He may use pre-memorized phrases to communicate, or may not have any speech at all. He doesn't understand social norms--he can neither intentionally insult someone nor intentionally compliment them.

This does not stop him from having relationships with other people, though. These will be based primarily on Wisdom (Sense Motive) rather than Charisma. With a wisdom score probably much higher than his charisma (even if it's only a 10), he will rely on his observations of the world around him, the patterns he observes, in order to interact with the world. He lives, probably, in a world that is very much made of sensory data--the things he feels, hears, and sees, for their own sake rather than for any hidden meaning. He may actually grow quite attached to patterns because of their predictability; people will be quite unpredictable and perhaps frightening to him. He will most likely be deeply attached to the people he knows best, but form friendships only over a span of years.

I highly suggest having one of the other characters be a sibling or long-term friend; he will probably need someone that he can trust to "translate" for him because the world of people will be quite overwhelming to him.

If you go for playing the character as autistic, I suggest researching autism so that you can actually make it realistic instead of a caricature. For all you know, people in your group may have autistic friends/relatives (or be autistic themselves) and be more than a little miffed if you play it as a joke or completely mess up the RP.

[Jinn Master]

I don't think you'd fall into a coma from not being noticed by anyone, ever. Maybe commit suicide, but not fall into a coma...



With 18 wisdom and 16 intelligence, I like the idea that he thinks in patterns, but since he has such high intelligence and wisdom, I don't think he would have that sort of trouble speaking. Understanding emotional context, yes, but not speaking.

I'm thinking of playing him as an extremely severe version of Dr. Temperance Brennan from Bones, except without as much talking.

[LibraryOgre]

Essentially, this person is going to start with odious personal habits. While moderately low charisma does not mean "ugly", this is pathologically low... so low that it indicates something severely wrong with the person.

He does not bathe unless rained upon. Haircuts are things that involve angry orcs with axes. He is extraordinarily ugly, but his presence is such that you begin to like anything he is against... but he's too transparent to turn this to his advantage by pretending to be for something he's actually against. He has a keen intellect and a strong sense of self, as well as a very developed sense of how the world works and good native observational skills, but has somehow completely missed how to interact with people in this.

In some ways, he makes me think of Beldin from David Eddings "Belgariad" and "Mallorean".... a twisted, shapeshifting dwarf who is utterly unlikable, except for those with a deep personal bond with him (his "brothers" and his "niece"). You may come to respect Beldin for his intelligence and insight, but he's always going to revolt you on some level. But I'd put Beldin as having at least some Charisma, compared to this twisted little misanthrope.

[Jinn Master]

I can go with that- I love Beldin.

[RTGoodman]

In some ways, he makes me think of Beldin from David Eddings "Belgariad" and "Mallorean".... a twisted, shapeshifting dwarf who is utterly unlikable, except for those with a deep personal bond with him (his "brothers" and his "niece"). You may come to respect Beldin for his intelligence and insight, but he's always going to revolt you on some level. But I'd put Beldin as having at least some Charisma, compared to this twisted little misanthrope.

Ah, the Belgariad. I haven't read that in a few years. But yeah, I think that's a good comparison.

[Callista]

I don't think you'd fall into a coma from not being noticed by anyone, ever. Maybe commit suicide, but not fall into a coma...

With 18 wisdom and 16 intelligence, I like the idea that he thinks in patterns, but since he has such high intelligence and wisdom, I don't think he would have that sort of trouble speaking. Understanding emotional context, yes, but not speaking.

I'm thinking of playing him as an extremely severe version of Dr. Temperance Brennan from Bones, except without as much talking.Savant syndrome, maybe? He certainly would have an extremely unusual brain. Savant syndrome is very unusual, even among autistics, but then... So are scores of 16 and 18 on WIS and INT.

Incidentally, it's quite possible for people to be capable of understanding language but not reliably producing it. In some cases they are actually literate and able to type out their thoughts; more commonly there are picture-exchange or symbolic systems, or simplified sign language. IQ tests are notoriously unreliable for autistic people, but as far as they actually apply, the ability to speak is not too strongly connected with the ability to reason in non-verbal areas, and in some cases there are highly intelligent people (measured through specialized non-language-based testing) who cannot speak at all. This would be a heavy RP challenge, though, so you might want to try more of a pedantic or echolalic style...

It may be coincidence, but Temperance Brennan is strongly hinted to be autistic, and is based on a real-life person who has Asperger's.

[Lord.Sorasen]

I don't think you'd fall into a coma from not being noticed by anyone, ever. Maybe commit suicide, but not fall into a coma...



With 18 wisdom and 16 intelligence, I like the idea that he thinks in patterns, but since he has such high intelligence and wisdom, I don't think he would have that sort of trouble speaking. Understanding emotional context, yes, but not speaking.

I'm thinking of playing him as an extremely severe version of Dr. Temperance Brennan from Bones, except without as much talking.

On the contrary, according to the SRD someone with 0 charisma cannot decipher between things.

Any creature capable of telling the difference between itself and things that are not itself has at least 1 point of Charisma. Anything with no Charisma score is an object, not a creature. Anything without a Charisma score also has no Wisdom score.

Also I guess it makes sense that an object has no conscious and is in a coma. Weird how you can be an object in a coma and still have an int score, though.

[Jinn Master]

I can go with that- I love Beldin.




So here's what I'm thinking so far.

A guy who has his dwarven beard more to hide his absolute horrific configuration rather than tradition. His left arm is mangled looking from fire, as is his lower jaw and up to one ear, which is shrivelled. He has scars on his neck from being hung and then cut down over a misunderstanding which he was unable to talk his way out of- thereby making his voice sound even worse, as bad as nails against a Styrofoam cup.

He is reticent to the point where people think him stupid- he generally can only get his ideas across in writing without misunderstanding. Even then, he is completely oblivious to the feelings and sensitivities of others, but once told something he learns not to do it again, but generally only with that person. This way, he is able to have some friends, but only those that had reason to stick very close to him in the first place, such as his clan or an adventuring party.

Due to his horrific hygiene, even those who might otherwise be able to get over his appearance and personality are revolted. His stench is about like the Bog Of Eternal Stench from the Labyrinth, since he exerts himself every day, but never bathes. He hunts, tracks, fights, and works with animals without a single bath, so he is caked in old gore, fecal matter, sweat, dirt, and blood.

Somehow, he manages to keep his armor in good condition despite all that. Occasionally, his wolf Companion is overwhelmed by the stench and so manages to get him to wade or swim through a creek to slake it a bit.


He is not generally this way mostly just because he lives almost entirely in the wild, and in a world of his own imagining, inside of his skull. He is capable of brilliant insights, but never has anyone to communicate them to. He does have a better grasp on animals than humans, and is generally able to communicate with them, and even win their love (7 ranks of handle animal plus the druid powers).




How does that work?

[WitchSlayer]

Tyrion Lannister has crazy high charisma, he's just extremely ugly.

[RTGoodman]

On the contrary, according to the SRD someone with 0 charisma cannot decipher between things.

Any creature capable of telling the difference between itself and things that are not itself has at least 1 point of Charisma. Anything with no Charisma score is an object, not a creature. Anything without a Charisma score also has no Wisdom score.

Also I guess it makes sense that an object has no conscious and is in a coma. Weird how you can be an object in a coma and still have an int score, though.


Not that it really matters, but there's a difference between a score of 0 and a non-ability (i.e., lacking an ability score completely). Any creature has a Charisma score, even if that score is 0. Objects don't even have that; they have NO mental facilities. For another example, a creature with a Str 0 is too weak to move at all, but a Str -- (that is, no Str score) cannot physically interact with ANYTHING.

[Lord.Sorasen]

Tyrion Lannister has crazy high charisma, he's just extremely ugly.

Does he? I remember a great many characters hating him on sight, honestly. I feel like he'd have low charisma, high int, and some sort of feat which let him apply his int instead of his charisma to bluff and diplomacy checks. Maybe. I don't know any more. D&D is complicated when it comes to mental stats.

Charisma bothers me because it states that it "represents actual strength of personality, not merely how one is perceived by others in a social setting."

I just don't see strength of personality as being objective, honestly.

[LibraryOgre]

Ah, the Belgariad. I haven't read that in a few years. But yeah, I think that's a good comparison.

My younger brother had me check it out for him last week, so I got to read the first 3 again. It's a bit fashionable to take swipes at David Eddings (RIP) for having only one story... but he can tell that story.


Occasionally, his wolf Companion is overwhelmed by the stench and so manages to get him to wade or swim through a creek to slake it a bit.

I'd change it, purely for stylistic reasons, from a wolf to a wolverine or badger. Mustelids are pretty smelly on their own, and so while a wolverine isn't an ideal Druid -3 creature, it's going to be a lot less picky about him smelling like a week-dead horse than a wolf might.

(EDIT: Just looked up, because I was curious. The difference between a wolverine and a dire badger? 2 points of Dex for the badger, and a climb speed for the wolverine)

[Bibliomancer]

Other posters have already mentioned this, but I'd like to reiterate it, as it is a very important distinction and often messed up in D&D:

Charisma is NOT attractiveness.

In fact, they can often be diametric opposites: a concubine or a trophy spouse would have low charisma and high attractiveness, while many real-life political figures have high charisma without high attractiveness. Consider, for example, the leader of the Third Reich.

Additionally, attractiveness is relative while charisma is absolute: elves and humans both find the other race uniformly attractive (possibly even more so than the average member of their own race) while neither possesses a bonus to charisma. Even in real life, standards of beauty have shifted over time (consider classical sculpture compared to modern ideals), while a historical leader would be imposing in any time period (consider how messed up a high school containing Alexander the Great, Napoleon, and Genghis Khan would be, for example).

Finally, ability to relate with others is also not charisma. That's diplomacy. Beldin probably has a rather high charisma, based on how easily he can provoke annoyance in people around him when he chooses to do so. He probably doesn't have many (or any) ranks in diplomacy. However, like also all heroes, he has a fairly high charisma (low charisma characters are rare in stories: they usually are not noticed and not that important, since they lacked the conviction to convince others to involve them in the proceedings).

Thus, you could have a well groomed dwarf (and this would in fact not be very surprising: consider Mr. Monk) who lacks the ability to relate to the world. In my opinion, you should really explore the autistic side of this dwarf as opposed to the disgusting side, although ultimately that's your choice as the player. I would just like to assert that the interpretation you seem to have chosen is not supported by the combination of your ability scores.

[The Glyphstone]

Well, at least we've gotten the former general counsel of the Wikimedia Foundation's law reference out of the way early.

[LibraryOgre]

Other posters have already mentioned this, but I'd like to reiterate it, as it is a very important distinction and often messed up in D&D:

Charisma is NOT attractiveness.

But it does explicitly include physical attractiveness. When you get down to a 1, you're looking at severe deficits in all categories, which includes "force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness."

Beldin has force of personality, but it's completely undirectable. He has one thing he can do based on his charisma... infuriate and disgust people. He can browbeat people with facts, information, and the like, forcing them to agree with him... but he can't persuade, lie, or concilliate... just make them agree with him by being right. Now, I don't think I'd put Beldin on par with a 1 Charisma... but he's not a high charisma. He's likable because we don't have to actually deal with him.

[Analytica]

Maybe this reflects in part some truly alien philosophy and mindset?

Consider someone who actually behaves like some kind of amalgam of animal traits boiled down and concentrated. Speech, traditions, using objects and so forth is simply eschewed. This person does not believe in personhood of any type, not even their own. All things are simply part of the greater organism of the whole. Thinking of themselves as maybe the pancreas gland of the world, and not in a strictly metaphorical sense. Other people are not people, they are just pieces of flesh that has some ways in which they can relate to other things, like walking on the ground, eating edible things, defecating. Living as an insect among other insects. Nothing has actual meaning; language is no more meaningful than moss growing on one side of the trees rather than the other.

Or perhaps it is actually a curse? Some sort of aura, making all communication and all impressions have the worst possible outcome.

To be honest, this seems fairly difficult to integrate with being in an adventurer party.

[Slipperychicken]

My 2c...

Though most of the better things have already been mentioned, you can have your character able to communicate/speak clearly, just give him an unblocked tube from his brain to his mouth. Do not consider your social environment, ever.

Say the first things that pop into your character's mind, have no regard whatsoever for anyone else's feelings, or even your own safety when you speak. Call the barbarian a smelly dumb*** for not having your insane knowledge score. If the King has a blemish, laugh at his face for it. Express supreme disgust whenever you see something ugly.

Talking to any female = stare about 1/2ft below the eyes. Do not move the eyes for any reason relating to social interaction.

Glare angrily at people, even when your character means to be warm and comforting.

Don't even pretend like you care about your party members dignity after they die, like you do in most adventures, shamelessly loot the corpse while talking about how stupid he was for getting killed by such an obvious trap.

[Jinn Master]

I will not play a character who is selfish or meanspirited. I am going to be playing him as True Neutral with Good tendencies.

I like the idea of almost seeing everything else as no concern. Hmm.




As a further aside, is there a feat that gives bonus "tricks" to animals?

[Bibliomancer]

Well, at least we've gotten the former general counsel of the Wikimedia Foundation's law reference out of the way early.

Quite. Apologies for the obfuscation, but there really is no better example of that, and it might not fulfill the intent of said axiom's primary purpose, as it was relating to an aspect of said individual wholly removed from his primary cultural association.


But it does explicitly include physical attractiveness. When you get down to a 1, you're looking at severe deficits in all categories, which includes "force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness."

Beldin has force of personality, but it's completely undirectable. He has one thing he can do based on his charisma... infuriate and disgust people. He can browbeat people with facts, information, and the like, forcing them to agree with him... but he can't persuade, lie, or concilliate... just make them agree with him by being right. Now, I don't think I'd put Beldin on par with a 1 Charisma... but he's not a high charisma. He's likable because we don't have to actually deal with him.

That's the thing. It affects physical attractiveness, not appearance or structure. The dwarf may look perfectly normal, but on closer inspection all of his features have a hidden undertone that removes totally the possibility of physical attraction. It's like you can have a white wall. Under normal light, it looks white, while with no light, it looks dark (black). Similarly, with a gaping lack of charisma, his bearing and body could be completely normal (ie, if someone groomed him), but the interface with his nigh non-personality would result a lack of physical attraction.

Ugliness does not necessarily mean deformation, in this context. It simply means something that renders him unsettling to those around him.

Specifically, charisma is a mental stat, not a physical one. Thus, it shouldn't be able to affect the physical shape of the dwarf's features, just his expressions.

[Kuma Kode]

I'm not sure that some of the other suggestions really reflect the travesty that is your Charisma. He's rude and smells bad is 5 or 6, possibly even 7 or 8. Charisma is notoriously vague as to what it actually means, but suffice to say that since it powers many arcane spells, social checks, creativity, and is an objective mental stat, it encompasses your general sense of self and ability to interact with the world around you, as well as projecting your will and personality onto others.

1 Charisma is to normal human society as a gecko is to a human in brainpower and problem solving. You have the force of personality and sense of self possessed by a zombie. You are utterly incapable of relating to other people on any meaningful level. Interpreting Charisma as generally "strength of personality," he is possibly deeply insecure to the point that it ruins any an all relationships. Your character lacks empathy and cannot put himself in another person's shoes. Such a deficiency is crippling. As has been mentioned, you have the bare minimum required sense of self to separate yourself from objects. He is boring, uninteresting, socially unaware, and above all, selfish. His own needs and thoughts are the only things he is capable of understanding; he isn't aware or is unable to process the fact that other people have emotions or thoughts of their own.

He might function on basic morality: it's only wrong if he gets caught. Things are "wrong" because they carry punishment, the same morality children possess at early ages. A child who is thirsty will drink out of your glass. If you tell him no, he'll stop, and you'll find he'll start drinking it again the moment you turn your back. His own needs and desires are the only driving force in his mind because he can't comprehend society and other people and the value of relationships.

Or he could be a sociopath. He is kind and generous only because it seems to serve him well. He interacts as expected because he has deduced it, with the other high mental scores, and it works well for him. He is unable to actually connect with another person on any meaningful level because his charisma is so crippled that he simply doesn't understand society or other people. He has no concerns for whether or not other people are happy; but keeping certain other people pleased makes things easier for him.

Essentially, he has replaced his Charisma with his Intelligence and Wisdom scores; cold logic and observation in place of authentic emotion. He still feels emotions, but only in the context of himself. He is angry when he is wronged, he is happy when he's well-fed, but he is incapable of empathizing with another person. He doesn't care about his allies because he can't. He protects them and keeps them happy because it benefits him to do so.

Regardless of how you do it, I stress that having such a low score, in fact the lowest possible, should be utterly crippling. Such as score is actually below that which is possible for a human to possess without DM fiat or outside curses or such (3d6 has a minimum, obviously, of 3). Smelling bad and being rude doesn't quite cut it; your character is fundamentally flawed in that area of himself. Any score so low will prevent an individual from living a normal life.


Ugliness does not necessarily mean deformation, in this context. It simply means something that renders him unsettling to those around him.

Specifically, charisma is a mental stat, not a physical one. Thus, it shouldn't be able to affect the physical shape of the dwarf's features, just his expressions.

Uncanny valley. The same revulsion occurs when you see a robot that is nearly perfectly life-like in appearance, but its motions are so obviously inhuman that it triggers disgust. That's actually a very good description of Charisma/physical attractiveness. Thank you, I'll use that from now on when describing it to new players.

[Bibliomancer]

Regardless of how you do it, I stress that having such a low score, in fact the lowest possible, should be utterly crippling. Such as score is actually below that which is possible for a human to possess without DM fiat or outside curses or such (3d6 has a minimum, obviously, of 3). Smelling bad and being rude doesn't quite cut it; your character is fundamentally flawed in that area of himself. Any score so low will prevent an individual from living a normal life.

Heartily seconded. By RAW, a character with an Int of 1 is unplayable. A character with a Cha of 1 should be nearly the same.


Uncanny valley. The same revulsion occurs when you see a robot that is nearly perfectly life-like in appearance, but its motions are so obviously inhuman that it triggers disgust. That's actually a very good description of Charisma/physical attractiveness. Thank you, I'll use that from now on when describing it to new players.

That's the term for which I was looking. Thank you, and I'm glad I was able to provide you with something useful for your gaming.

[Jinn Master]

So, would it be the general consensus that I should reroll?

[Bibliomancer]

Not necessarily.

If you think you're up for the challenge of playing a severely inward-looking, nigh-inhuman character...or your group favours simple explanations of concept mixed with some jokes...go for it. Otherwise, it might be better to reroll, since Cha 1 is very far from the norm (although so is Cha 18, so if you've played sorcerers who act normally before then it might not be necessary).

Ultimately, it's up to you, but portraying Cha 1 accurately would be very difficult.

[Fox Box Socks]

When I was in high school, my art teacher (who was very cool) used to regale us with stories of his D&D campaigns. Specifically, he once played a character with a Charisma of 3. The DM gave him the following instructions on how to play said character:

"Every sentence your character says has to involve him either violently swearing or unintentionally insulting someone. Every. Single. Sentence."

[Kuma Kode]

So, would it be the general consensus that I should reroll? If you aren't up for portraying it accurately, yeah. I would. But it IS possible, but obviously as with any ridiculously low stat your party is going to have trouble working around it, just as if there was a character with 1 Constitution or 1 Wisdom. Sociopath is probably easiest, and you might want to reflect that by looking to see if there's a feat that lets you swap Intelligence and Charisma for Bluff and Diplomacy. It's realistic, and not that terribly powerful. It's nichey and only really for fluffing out characters like that.

Also, note that any Charisma damage at all will incapacitate you; that's an easy off-button. Ability damage normally requires a few shots to do that to a normal character.

[Jinn Master]

Thanks for the help guys. I'll probably end up playing him with a low charisma score, but nowhere near 1.

[olthar]

So, would it be the general consensus that I should reroll?

Essentially yes. It is pretty much impossible to do a decent job roleplaying a character with such a severe handicap in one mental stat without accompanying handicaps in the others (mostly because that is not really possible in our world).

Someone who is severely autistic would probably have a low charisma, but autism spectrum disorders should also affect wisdom. Savantism would be a high intelligence, low wisdom low charisma situation. Additionally, it is something that is physically possible for someone. A charisma of 1 actually takes "magical" help (in this case a racial adjustment).

If you are looking for a real world example, then I would look to Phinseas Gage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phineas_Gage). He was a reasonably intelligent person (probably a 10) with nothing affecting his "wisdom" (also a 10) but a major social problem. Even still, Gage is probably a better example of a 3 than a 1. He was still able to function in normal society, though with major deficits. A 1 probably could not.

[Callista]

I think Phineas Gage lost Wisdom due to his brain injury... What seems to have happened was that he lost inhibition, decision-making skills, and general "maturity" in some way. That's Wisdom, as far as you can simulate real life with D&D.

Regarding autism and Wisdom score:
Wisdom affects:
Heal, Listen, Profession, Sense Motive, Spot, and Survival.
It also affects your resistance to mental attacks.

Listen and Spot would be higher in someone with autism. Typical people will look at the world around them and filter out most sensory data before it reaches their conscious mind; autistic people do that to a much lesser degree, leading to a flood of information. They are therefore much more sensitive to sensory overload, but also much more likely to notice small details. In a few savants, eidetic memory is present.

The other scores don't really change much.

So, my guess... either the Alertness feat or a slightly higher Wisdom score on average.


He might function on basic morality: it's only wrong if he gets caught. Things are "wrong" because they carry punishment, the same morality children possess at early ages. A child who is thirsty will drink out of your glass. If you tell him no, he'll stop, and you'll find he'll start drinking it again the moment you turn your back. His own needs and desires are the only driving force in his mind because he can't comprehend society and other people and the value of relationships.

Or he could be a sociopath. He is kind and generous only because it seems to serve him well. He interacts as expected because he has deduced it, with the other high mental scores, and it works well for him. He is unable to actually connect with another person on any meaningful level because his charisma is so crippled that he simply doesn't understand society or other people. He has no concerns for whether or not other people are happy; but keeping certain other people pleased makes things easier for him.

Essentially, he has replaced his Charisma with his Intelligence and Wisdom scores; cold logic and observation in place of authentic emotion. He still feels emotions, but only in the context of himself. He is angry when he is wronged, he is happy when he's well-fed, but he is incapable of empathizing with another person. He doesn't care about his allies because he can't. He protects them and keeps them happy because it benefits him to do so.Absolutely not. A low-Charisma individual is not a sociopath; in fact, sociopaths are extremely charismatic. They have to be, to pass undetected.

The idea that they would have a moral system that consists of "be a good boy" doesn't seem to make much sense to me either, because in order to understand what others expect of you, you need charisma! Someone with a low Charisma score would be far more likely to have his own personal code of conduct, not based on what others wanted him to do. As soon as he understood the concept of "hurting others", he would decide whether he wanted to hurt others or not; and that would form the basis of his moral system. I dare say someone with a very low Charisma might actually be more introspective and more likely to analyze their own beliefs than someone who is more charming and extroverted...

[Sitzkrieg]

Did anybody else think of Milton from Office Space? One of the few mainstream characters with extremely low Charisma. He's also not revoltingly offensive...he's just instantly dismissed by everyone around him and doesn't understand how to effectively communicate.

[Kuma Kode]

Absolutely not. A low-Charisma individual is not a sociopath; in fact, sociopaths are extremely charismatic. They have to be, to pass undetected. You're thinking of a functional sociopath. Not all sociopaths possess the mask of sanity, some of them are brutish and selfish and are quickly thrown in jail. A functional sociopath does not utilize charisma in dealing with others, since there's no emotional attachment or capability there. A functional sociopath learns what is expected of him not by intuition or understanding of other people, but through context clues. It was an optional means of interpreting what the low Charisma might actually mean.


The idea that they would have a moral system that consists of "be a good boy" doesn't seem to make much sense to me either, because in order to understand what others expect of you, you need charisma! Someone with a low Charisma score would be far more likely to have his own personal code of conduct, not based on what others wanted him to do. As soon as he understood the concept of "hurting others", he would decide whether he wanted to hurt others or not; and that would form the basis of his moral system. I dare say someone with a very low Charisma might actually be more introspective and more likely to analyze their own beliefs than someone who is more charming and extroverted... It's not about understanding what others expect; the child in the example obviously doesn't understand the concept of ownership, only that being caught has negative consequences. Having his own code and doing what he or she wants to do and not what others expect is exactly what I was trying to say; the character is self-serving. He can't really be moral because morality is a set of guidelines for interaction in a society (at least in the context we're discussing). This draws me back to the sociopath line of thinking; because they cannot feel empathy, other people do not figure into their equations of right and wrong. Only the character's own desires and thoughts matter.

However, the character mentioned is also very observant and intelligent. Even if he wants to do something, he could notice that there would be negative consequences for him. He could ACT like he's good, especially since being good in a D&D world has tangible benefits, but he wouldn't BE good. He's doing it only because it's what's best for him, and that's all that matters to a character with such a crippling inability to relate to others.

He may not ACTUALLY BE a sociopath, but he might present as one.

[Callista]

One branch of morality is "behavior in a society"--the law/chaos branch. "Appropriate" behavior, politeness, honor, etc. is all Lawful. If you're arguing that low Charisma predisposed you to being Chaotic, I agree; but there's just nothing about charisma that changes Good/Evil any.

In real life, autistic people are less likely to commit crimes and less likely to commit violent acts than typical people. (The reason is probably that crime is often a social act, and autistics are less social more often than not--I highly doubt there are any actual alignment tendencies. Ironically, autistic people are several times more likely to be the victims of crimes.)

Let's look at the difference between two types of empathy...
Type 1: "I instinctively understand the people around me."
Type 2: "I care about the people around me."

Most people have both abilities and see them as roughly the same thing. It's when you have one but not the other that you get some odd effects.

A sociopath has Type 1, but not Type 2. He knows what you're feeling--that's how he manipulates you--but he doesn't care. This person will be truly self-serving.

Autistic folks, in general (though there are exceptions), will have Type 2 empathy, but not Type 1. They have problems getting the raw data that helps them understand other people. Once they actually get the information, they care as much as anyone else does--though they will likely be quite clumsy about expressing their desire to help. He's not "self-serving"; the desire to help is there, but it's difficult for him to communicate it, and misunderstandings and botched messages are common.

So there's the difference. It may seem like a small difference, and it really doesn't matter for typical folks, but it's actually pretty crucial.

[Kuma Kode]

I in no way intended to imply my interpretations were the only ones. Certainly sociopathy is not the only way to interpret low Charisma, and autism makes sense. I was merely suggesting different ways to roleplay such a character. I apologize if it seemed otherwise.

The only thing I stated as any certainty is that such a score would be crippling to the character's ability to interact meaningfully, however it is manifests. Ability scores are too broad and generalized to indicate any particular social malady.

[ffone]

Careful of ability damage/drain to that score!

[Calmar]

So I can have him as an ugly as sin, reserved loner druid who works with people when he needs to, but generally keeps his mouth shut because people either ignore him entirely anyway, or they always take what he says the wrong way.
That will make him a very interesting character for a role playing game. :smalltongue:

[Earthwalker]

So, would it be the general consensus that I should reroll?

I would see what your group think. To play a 1 cha character effectivly the game is going to become more about your lack of charisma and inability to handle social situations.

I believe this will negativly effet the game for the other payers, if they don't mind go for it.

I can say I would not be happy playing with the character unless my character had a good reason to care about him, why would you want this guy around you all the time.

[only1doug]

I played a halfling wizard with 3 cha once, he was great fun to play.

Ethan Blackface was obsessed with fire (and had hideous burns across his face), his solution to almost all issues was to use a fire based spell (most of the party found evasion or high fire resistance). he eventually took levels elemental savant and became part fire elemental. If fire wasn't part of the problem or part of the solution then Ethan wasn't interested.

[Quietus]

I played a halfling wizard with 3 cha once, he was great fun to play.

Ethan Blackface was obsessed with fire (and had hideous burns across his face), his solution to almost all issues was to use a fire based spell (most of the party found evasion or high fire resistance). he eventually took levels elemental savant and became part fire elemental. If fire wasn't part of the problem or part of the solution then Ethan wasn't interested.

This is kind of along the lines of what I was thinking; Instead of worrying about playing a believable autistic - 'cause, let's face it guys, we play these games to have fun, and always asking myself if I'm doing it right? Not so fun - play a character who is so utterly incapable of normal social interaction that he picks one thing and obsesses on it. If you want your character to be Good aligned, then I'd say pick a religion. A servant of Ehlonna, who doesn't approach the world in terms of "What do I want? What do my friends want? What's best for me?", but rather in terms of "What does Ehlonna want from me in this situation?"

Basically, see yourself not as a person, but as a tool of that God's will. If Ehlonna wants something, she gets it, even if it means putting yourself at grave risk to do it.

[LibraryOgre]

"Every sentence your character says has to involve him either violently swearing or unintentionally insulting someone. Every. Single. Sentence."

Reminds me of my rules for running Kender. "You do not control your natural abilities. They are there for you to call upon, but they are also there for me to call upon. If you insult someone, it is a Taunt. If you stand next to someone with interesting things in his pockets, it is a pickpocket attempt."

[Fox Box Socks]

Heh.

Charisma isn't just how good looking your character is, it's how likable they can be, how good they are with their words, how easily they can make people do what they want. There's nothing stopping a character with elephantitis or a character that lost 80% of their face in a gas fire from having 18 Charisma, because those things are divorced from a person's personal magnetism or a person's ability to convince people of things.

A character with 1 Charisma should have a tough time getting anyone to like him or listen to anything he has to say. He should be the opposite of likable, the opposite of magnetic. Not just annoying, but exceedingly obnoxious. He should simply lack the ability to think on his feet or hide his emotions; the moment something goes wrong, it is written all over his face (assuming he doesn't just blurt it out loud). You can't take him to parties, because he physically cannot stop himself from saying the wrong thing at the right time. You could even consider giving him a severe stutter, if everyone in your group is okay with that sort of thing.

Metagame issues aside, 1 Charisma is doable. Difficult, but doable.

[Heliomance]

I'm with the people that say someone with 1 Cha is more likely to be ignored than hated. Picked on and bullied maybe, because he's an easy target, but most people won't hate him. Most people won't notice him.

[Fox Box Socks]

I'm with the people that say someone with 1 Cha is more likely to be ignored than hated. Picked on and bullied maybe, because he's an easy target, but most people won't hate him. Most people won't notice him.
Except when he tries not to be noticed, at which point he'll stick out like a sore thumb.

[FMArthur]

Except when he tries not to be noticed, at which point he'll stick out like a sore thumb.

I never quite "got" the reason that failing extra hard at something accomplishes its opposite in D&D. It's been the that way in actually the majority of the groups I've played in. It's not like failing to jump gives you a burrow speed or something... I guess it's just Rule of Funny. :smallbiggrin:

[Callista]

Definitely Rule of Funny. We had a clumsy, strong character try to break down a door once, and rolled a one on it, then rolled another one when he re-tried. The DM ruled he punched a hole through the wall instead. The goblins inside were not amused. :smallamused:


I'm with the people that say someone with 1 Cha is more likely to be ignored than hated. Picked on and bullied maybe, because he's an easy target, but most people won't hate him. Most people won't notice him.Yep. This is why I do a lot of interaction online. (I have a charisma of maybe 6, as far as I can guess, and tend to be a bully magnet and generally invisible in real life because I suck at sending the right non-verbal signals.) It's much easier to communicate in plain text. Ironically, my mom and I have grown much closer since we started primarily e-mailing each other. Same with me and friends--we write back and forth a lot (or else meet one on one, which is way easier for me than big parties).

I suppose I am using Profession(Writer) as a substitute for Diplomacy. :)

[Jothki]

Maybe this reflects in part some truly alien philosophy and mindset?

Consider someone who actually behaves like some kind of amalgam of animal traits boiled down and concentrated. Speech, traditions, using objects and so forth is simply eschewed. This person does not believe in personhood of any type, not even their own. All things are simply part of the greater organism of the whole. Thinking of themselves as maybe the pancreas gland of the world, and not in a strictly metaphorical sense. Other people are not people, they are just pieces of flesh that has some ways in which they can relate to other things, like walking on the ground, eating edible things, defecating. Living as an insect among other insects. Nothing has actual meaning; language is no more meaningful than moss growing on one side of the trees rather than the other.

That's kind of similar to what I'm thinking of. Since he's a druid, maybe have him have trouble distinguishing himself from the concept of Nature that he serves. It hasn't even occurred to him that he's even capable of doing things outside of his role as a druid, or that his life has any meaning outside of how it can be used to fulfill his duty.

[Callista]

If he associates mostly with animals and with nature, maybe he interacts with people in a similar way to the way he interacts with animals. And being a druid, he probably understands animals very instinctively... High WIS would let him pay attention to body language and the rhythms of people's movements. He probably is very perceptive about people (Sense Motive) but will be quite horrible at using and understanding language. Animals, after all, don't use language; for them it's more like body posture and movement and vocalization and such.

Think of the way a dog interacts with you. He's very in tune to what you're doing and what you're feeling. We've actually bred dogs to pay attention to our body language and tone of voice. Only, in this case, it's a highly intelligent dwarf instead of a dog; and he's capable of using abstract reasoning to process the data he instinctively gets from the people he's with. Expressing himself is probably a ridiculously difficult proposition; but he knows what you're saying and what you're feeling. In clinical terms, his receptive language/communication skills are far ahead of his expressive language ability.

He may seem stupid because of his inability to express his intelligence; but people who know him will realize that he is very, very aware of the world around him, and thinks deeply and intelligently about life and the world in general.

Oh, and if you want to read about a cool dwarven druid, read the Cleric Quintet and look for Pikel Bouldershoulder. He's very smart and level-headed, but he has a speech impediment that may represent a relatively low charisma score, so that few people other than his brother Ivan can really understand what he's trying to get across.