Reincarnate + Genesis = 3 Int per level?

[Privateer]

When you reincarnate from an old body, I assume you get to keep your old Int, Wis, Cha stats, since the spell only replaces the physical stats. You also get a new body, so presumably you are free to once again age it and get an additional +3 in your mental stats once you hit venerable. At which point you can repeat.

The two limiting factors are, of course, time and the fact that you lose a level because you need to die to get reincarnated.

But time can be solved by creating a demiplane where time passes much faster than in the material plane, using the Genesis spell, which, if I understand correctly, allows you to set parameters of a plane you are making, one of which is time.

So, question is, can you really trade a level for a +3 Int, Wis, and Cha this way; and if so, is it actually worth it?

[Forum Explorer]

When you reincarnate from an old body, I assume you get to keep your old Int, Wis, Cha stats, since the spell only replaces the physical stats. You also get a new body, so presumably you are free to once again age it and get an additional +3 in your mental stats once you hit venerable. At which point you can repeat.

The two limiting factors are, of course, time and the fact that you lose a level because you need to die to get reincarnated.

But time can be solved by creating a demiplane where time passes much faster than in the material plane, using the Genesis spell, which, if I understand correctly, allows you to set parameters of a plane you are making, one of which is time.

So, question is, can you really trade a level for a +3 Int, Wis, and Cha this way; and if so, is it actually worth it?

I think you're reincarnated back into the same age category.

[Privateer]

I think you're reincarnated back into the same age category.

Not according to SRD.


The magic of the spell creates an entirely new young adult body for the soul to inhabit from the natural elements at hand.

[tyckspoon]

For further cheese, combine with a Thought Bottle to recover your lost XP. Or just adventure normally- you've got a whole new lifetime to regain that level, after all.

[slaydemons]

if you degrade age groups I assume your stats go back into place

[Siosilvar]

Option 1: You lose the mental bonuses to stats as well.

Option 2: You keep the mental bonuses. Beware, mortal, for there are those that would stop you, namely the untiring, infinite forces of Law (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/inevitable.htm#marut). Advanced up to the given 45 HD as necessary, of course.

[Jeraa]

I could see this going either way; you age and gain the bonuses again, or your treated as a young adult again and loose the bonuses you had, as your no longer venerable.

If I had to make a ruling, I would say that it wouldn't work, and further ageing gives no additional bonuses. After all, your already mentally venerable. Your only young adult physically. But this wouldn't come up in my games anyway - I removed the bonus to mental scores from aging anyway. Only the penalties remain.

[Privateer]

if you degrade age groups I assume your stats go back into place

By RAW, yes, but mental stat increases are not just because your body is old, they are because you gained experiences through your life. These experiences don't go away when you reincarnate, the spell specifically says so. Thus, I'd think it unreasonable to say an old man whose body suddenly turned young will become any less wise. But now he has a chance to live even longer and gather even more experiences.

[Welknair]

I have a character drawn up that spends most of his time making magic items. He's a 30th level or so Wizard/Maester/Effigy Master. He uses Thought Bottle Cheese to only lose 500 XP every time he depletes his excess XP reserves. And then he fights the "Infinite Forces of Law" to regain the 500. (They're a bit mad because he replaced his old body with a mechanical one which doesn't and as such he never reaches his age-cap...). Nickname "Terma-Gnome"

More on topic: What DM would allow that kind of abuse? It's like Pun-Pun. It's a bit iffy at best and seems a bit game breaking. You could hypothetically do it, but no game would actually allow you to.

[Privateer]

It's definitely abuse if you bring in thought bottle into it (which is usually banned in and of itself) and perhaps the time-altered Genesis demiplane. If you have to pay a level's worth of XP for a +3 to your casting stat, I don't know if I'd call it abuse. In fact, I'm still not sure if it'd be worth it if you could do it, hence my second question. I mean, sure, in the long run an increase is nice, but being a level behind kind of sucks for a caster, no?

[Bibliomancer]

Overall, from an optimization point of view it probably isn't worth it, by the practical optimization guideline 'though shalt not lose caster levels.'

However, whether it would work is another matter. I would argue that it wouldn't, because otherwise one in nine cats would have the ability to beat archmagi at chess. [Technically animals don't gain ability boosts, though].

[Vangor]

You also get a new body, so presumably you are free to once again age it and get an additional +3 in your mental stats once you hit venerable. At which point you can repeat.

While I see this as being a reasonable assumption, since the physical attributes are tied to the withering body whereas the mental attributes are tied to your growing knowledge, the issue is with the age categories per race. There is no true reason a human gains +3 to Wis, Int, and Cha in the span of (assuming average human wizard starting age of 22) 48 years whereas an elf does the same in the span of (again assuming average elven wizard starting age of 145) 205 years. Some such about humans living life more swiftly/fully due to the limited time might be tossed about, but this does not hold with adventurers who are prone to brushes with death. Plus, when confronted by a wizard or similar who finds means to circumvent natural death due to aging, this appears rather thin.

The issue is the trade. Age categories represent a notion of life experience via aging, which living on a demiplane of rapid time experiencing nothing new does not really expand. I see nothing which stops you rule wise from doing this, but by my interpretation the age categories should be generalities and focus on maturity/experience rather than strict duration.

[Privateer]

But nothing prevents you from bringing some people over to your fast-paced demiplane and having a full-life experience on it in the span of a material plane's day. In fact, I'd rule you have to do that or you'll go insane trying to spend 50 years in a completely barren environment, even if you could magically sustain your body.

Having time move at a different rate allows you to learn much more in a limited real-world time. Aging bonuses are just the most extreme form of it, but the same effect applies to, for instance, learning new spells.

I absolutely agree that it's rubbish for aging bonuses/penalties to be applied at portions of one's maximum lifespan no matter what it is. I'd do it every 25 years. And if most half-orcs never make it to venerable, well, that's life. :smallyuk:

[Welknair]

It's definitely abuse if you bring in thought bottle into it (which is usually banned in and of itself) and perhaps the time-altered Genesis demiplane. If you have to pay a level's worth of XP for a +3 to your casting stat, I don't know if I'd call it abuse. In fact, I'm still not sure if it'd be worth it if you could do it, hence my second question. I mean, sure, in the long run an increase is nice, but being a level behind kind of sucks for a caster, no?

You can always gain more levels. But you only get 1 stat increase every four levels. This way you could potentially get three increases to three stats for the cost of one level. If you got the time, it's a sweet deal. Plus it's a nice way to increase your power without requiring an exponential quantity more XP just to increase again.

[tyckspoon]

Overall, from an optimization point of view it probably isn't worth it, by the practical optimization guideline 'though shalt not lose caster levels.'


There is a difference between losing a caster level and delaying it. A lost caster level is one sunk into a non-caster choice, such as taking a PrC level that doesn't advance casting or picking a different base class. Barring level drain shenanigans, that level permanently reduces the highest caster level you can reach. Delaying a caster level, such as by choosing to spend XP on crafting or something like this trick instead, just puts off your caster advancement in trade for some other benefit. You get to decide what the relative benefit is, but you don't lose out on caster progression in the end.

[Hirax]

I've made myself dizzy reading the rules on it, but going into this thread my gut was that the bonuses should not go away, since the represent attained knowledge you would need to somehow unlearn. Assuming they stay, once you are reincarnated and go through the aging process again, I don't believe you should get even more stats. Long lived races such as elves don't get better stat bonuses, despite having more time to accrue knowledge and experience. So more time does not equate to more stats.

[Necroticplague]

If the stats increase each time, shouldn't the penalties also accrue each time?

[FelixG]

If the stats increase each time, shouldn't the penalties also accrue each time?

Not at all, the mental stats are applied mentally (obvious) and not tied to your body, the penalties are applied to your body becoming more frail, if you reincarnate your body is young again but your mind is unaffected for the most part.

[Eldan]

All we need now is a source of rapid aging.

Sadly, I don't know any in third edition.

[MeeposFire]

If you were a venerable old man and so you had +3 mental stats and you gained an ability to be immortal you will never gain another mental stat from old age. Yet some people are saying that since we are in a new body, which they obstinately say does not make you lose your mental stats, give you an ability to gain more mental stats from those same life experiences. In term of logic that makes no sense and neither do these arguments outside of a RAW sort of discussion.

[Boci]

If you were a venerable old man and so you had +3 mental stats and you gained an ability to be immortal you will never gain another mental stat from old age. Yet some people are saying that since we are in a new body, which they obstinately say does not make you lose your mental stats, give you an ability to gain more mental stats from those same life experiences. In term of logic that makes no sense and neither do these arguments outside of a RAW sort of discussion.

The logic is as you get older your body degrades, but your expirience and time spent alieve has increased your mental abilities. By renewing your body you offset the disadvantages of the former, whilst keeping the advantages of the latter. The only objectionable thing logic wise is the fast time plane short cut.

[Eldan]

True. But I can see the reasoning behind not gaining any more mental stats: there's a cap on those, and living longer won't do much at some point. Or all immortals would have near infinite mental stats, which they don't.

[MeeposFire]

The logic is as you get older your body degrades, but your expirience and time spent alieve has increased your mental abilities. By renewing your body you offset the disadvantages of the former, whilst keeping the advantages of the latter. The only objectionable thing logic wise is the fast time plane short cut.

I got that but if you made yourself immortal you would still be having the same life experiences with a body that has no problems but you still would not receive any mental benefit from it after you got your +3 . So we are both living the same experiences and yet somehow you learn from it and I am apparently too stupid to do it. That makes no sense.

[Boci]

So we are both living the same experiences and yet somehow you learn from it and I am apparently too stupid to do it. That makes no sense.

No you do learn from it, I just learn from it more by restarting the process yet keeping all previous expirience.


Or all immortals would have near infinite mental stats, which they don't.

It could easily be argued that being immortal from birth changes your outlook on life and consequently what you can learn from it.

[Mr.Smashy]

No you do learn from it, I just learn from it more by restarting the process yet keeping all previous expirience.


It could easily be argued that being immortal from birth changes your outlook on life and consequently what you can learn from it.

Well put, good sir. I believe this is the case as well. A lifetime of experience will be different for everybody. I do not agree with the fact that it takes elves a quarter of a millenia to figure out what joe shmoe the farmer does in 1/8th that time. It sort of makes elves seem dense. XD

I would say that it works... Except for the lack of "Time moves 365x faster" magic. But that could be easily circumvented by developing your own spell, and i don't know a single DM who would allow that.

[Jack_Simth]

For further cheese, combine with a Thought Bottle to recover your lost XP. Or just adventure normally- you've got a whole new lifetime to regain that level, after all.
For even more, use Last Breath (Spell Compendium) instead of Reincarnate when you suicide.

[Chilingsworth]

For even more, use Last Breath (Spell Compendium) instead of Reincarnate when you suicide.

Or you could use True Reincarnation (Races of the Wild, I think) 9th level spell, no level loss, and IIRC, you come back as your original race. However, Last Breath would certainly be cheeper!

[Gullintanni]

Well put, good sir. I believe this is the case as well. A lifetime of experience will be different for everybody. I do not agree with the fact that it takes elves a quarter of a millenia to figure out what joe shmoe the farmer does in 1/8th that time. It sort of makes elves seem dense. XD

I would say that it works... Except for the lack of "Time moves 365x faster" magic. But that could be easily circumvented by developing your own spell, and i don't know a single DM who would allow that.

Elves simply take their time. I take the perspective that Mass Effect takes regarding the Asari and Humans. Humans rush through their lives, setting immediate goals and pursuing them relentlessly. Elves, on the other hand, spend their time watching and waiting and learning through observation. They don't take the risks that most humans do simply because they don't need to. As a result of this distinct lifestyle, Elves simply lack the perspective that Humans develop so quickly.

Regarding aging, it's probably not RAW, but I'd run it like this:

When you reincarnate, your age category doesn't change. You're still venerable, but your Body is young. This mean the physical penalties don't disappear, but your mind retains the benefits of its experience.

Given that, Reincarnate resets the age category of your body, but not your mind. You lose the physical penalties, retain the mental benefits, but do not gain subsequent benefits as your body catches up with the age of your mind.

[LordBlades]

Regarding aging, it's probably not RAW, but I'd run it like this:

When you reincarnate, your age category doesn't change. You're still venerable, but your Body is young. This mean the physical penalties don't disappear, but your mind retains the benefits of its experience.

Given that, Reincarnate resets the age category of your body, but not your mind. You lose the physical penalties, retain the mental benefits, but do not gain subsequent benefits as your body catches up with the age of your mind.

We've had this issue come up in my group a long time ago and the house rule we've come up with is very similar to what you said:

The bonuses to mental stats are determined by your 'mental age'. You advance through age categories (for the purpose of mental bonuses) at the rate of your base race. If you're human and gain the body of an elf, you won't suddenly adopt the mental outlook of an elf as well.

The penalties to physical stats are determined by your 'physical age'. You advance through age categories, if appropriate, (for the purpose of physical penalties) at the rate of the race whose body you currently have.

[Quietus]

As a DM, I'd reset mental bonuses alongside the physical penalties.

Justification? The mental bonuses are due to a combination of having to rely on your mind more than on your body, as your body degrades (no longer an issue), and because your brain becomes stronger and healthier the more you use it, meaning that those mental pathways are physically improved.

Of course, in the real world, we go senile as we age, but hey. Not in D&D! Mostly, this is a mechanical thing, and I dare any player to look me in the eye and try and convince me that no, they really SHOULD be able to freely increase their mental scores by abusing time-increased planes and Reincarnate. In fact, anyone who answers Yes when I ask, "So you'd basically like to arbitrarily gain mental stats as high as you want, by sitting around on your personal demiplane for <lifetime> years, then coming back to the party, slitting your throat, and having the druid reincarnate you?"... would become an NPC and be told to roll up a new character. We'll do a solo adventure later with the Wizard's Hundred Years Of Boredom if they want to keep playing it.

[Boci]

"So you'd basically like to arbitrarily gain mental stats as high as you want, by sitting around on your personal demiplane for <lifetime> years, then coming back to the party, slitting your throat, and having the druid reincarnate you?"... .

No, by constantly being reborn into a younger version of your own body having lived a full life.

[Chilingsworth]

It seems to me that use of time-altered planes would cause this trick to fail, at least the bleak Genisis-created time-altered demiplane. Afterall, you're mind can't develop with nothing (to speak of) to experience.

Without time altering magic, this trick wouldn't work during the course of most campaigns. However, I suppose theoretically you could work something like this into a character backstory or something. In which case, you would have to pay for NPC spellcasting of the multiple Last Breath spells (otherwise, you'd lose levels,) and determine your final race randomly.

Alternatively, for something less broken, a DM could rule that you only gain the venerable mental bonuses once. Even then, this trick could be used to get said bonuses without the nasty side effects of the physical penalties.

[FelixG]

It seems to me that use of time-altered planes would cause this trick to fail, at least the bleak Genisis-created time-altered demiplane. Afterall, you're mind can't develop with nothing (to speak of) to experience.

Without time altering magic, this trick wouldn't work during the course of most campaigns. However, I suppose theoretically you could work something like this into a character backstory or something. In which case, you would have to pay for NPC spellcasting of the multiple Last Breath spells (otherwise, you'd lose levels,) and determine your final race randomly.

Alternatively, for something less broken, a DM could rule that you only gain the venerable mental bonuses once. Even then, this trick could be used to get said bonuses without the nasty side effects of the physical penalties.

You just say you were a 30th level caster who spent his entire fortune on this venture and some very bad investments and you are now level 1 with only a few GP left to your name... :smallbiggrin:

[Darth Stabber]

So you want to be the Doctor?

[Haarkla]

Given that, Reincarnate resets the age category of your body, but not your mind. You lose the physical penalties, retain the mental benefits, but do not gain subsequent benefits as your body catches up with the age of your mind.
I too would rule it this way.

[MeeposFire]

No you do learn from it, I just learn from it more by restarting the process yet keeping all previous expirience.



It could easily be argued that being immortal from birth changes your outlook on life and consequently what you can learn from it.

It cannot be easily argued since there are no immortal people in real life so you have no actual way to argue this especially since you have no way to know how immortality effects the mind. I could say that it is easy to argue that you do not gain any special benefit from gaining a new body to your mind since your mind has not changed, but in reality I have no way of truly knowing since I do not know how it would be like to be in another body.

This is why I just go with that the most likely event is that you get no special mental benefit from being in a new body as it keeps age giving you life experience benefits consistent. Otherwise I need to rationalize why the same mind gets so much more benefit from being in body A rather than body B that you get up to +3 better mental stats as that is a significant improvement (on an average person of old age that would be about a 25% increase).

[Doug Lampert]

It's definitely abuse if you bring in thought bottle into it (which is usually banned in and of itself) and perhaps the time-altered Genesis demiplane. If you have to pay a level's worth of XP for a +3 to your casting stat, I don't know if I'd call it abuse. In fact, I'm still not sure if it'd be worth it if you could do it, hence my second question. I mean, sure, in the long run an increase is nice, but being a level behind kind of sucks for a caster, no?

Who cares? You get roughly 40% more XP since you are behind the rest of the party, time it right and you're behind for about 2 adventuring days.

Yawn.


Overall, from an optimization point of view it probably isn't worth it, by the practical optimization guideline 'though shalt not lose caster levels.'
No PO says, thy caster shalt not waste levels on non-casting levels.

This isn't doing that.

This gives +9 to abilities for one level, since +3 is a stacking bonus to your caster stat that's 82,500 GP worth of Tome right there, that stacks with an actual tome!

And all PO characters eventually use a +5 tome or equivalent.

We know PO considers a staking bonus to the casting stat worth a minimum of 27,500 GP at high level. You're paying half a level's XP for a stacking +3, it's worth it.

DougL

[Privateer]

Regarding aging, it's probably not RAW, but I'd run it like this:

When you reincarnate, your age category doesn't change. You're still venerable, but your Body is young. This mean the physical penalties don't disappear, but your mind retains the benefits of its experience.

Given that, Reincarnate resets the age category of your body, but not your mind. You lose the physical penalties, retain the mental benefits, but do not gain subsequent benefits as your body catches up with the age of your mind.

I think this is the most reasonable way. This solution still gives a bonus, but limits it to a relatively small amount, and attaches strings.

I also like the RP opportunities it provides to a good player. Imagine, the things you did with your friends just "yesterday" in their perception were actually ancient history in yours. You probably don't even remember most of the things. You may well have gone through much mental changes in your fifty years on the other plane. Maybe your alignment is now different, you like different food, value different things. Things you thought were really cool about your friends may now seem inane. Heh, anything and everything could change in over the course of a lifetime. :smallwink:

[Ravens_cry]

I wouldn't allow this. One, the whole increases are supposed to come from life experiences and the insight that is supposed to come from this. Been stuck in a time bubble will not accomplish that. I would be more willing to allow someone who died at venerable and was reincarnated,to keep the bonuses, but it would have to happen in game; you can't show up at the table with plus +1000 to your mental stats because you lived your life and were reincarnated a thousand times in your backstory.

[JamesonCourage]

Reincarnate, SRD:


The magic of the spell creates an entirely new young adult body for the soul to inhabit from the natural elements at hand.

A reincarnated creature recalls the majority of its former life and form. It retains any class abilities, feats, or skill ranks it formerly possessed. Its class, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, and hit points are unchanged. Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores depend partly on the new body. First eliminate the subject’s racial adjustments (since it is no longer of his previous race) and then apply the adjustments found below to its remaining ability scores. The subject’s level (or Hit Dice) is reduced by 1.

Since age penalties or bonuses are completely dependent on what race you are, I'd say the bonuses would disappear with any other attribute bonus dependent on race.

[Boci]

It cannot be easily argued since there are no immortal people in real life so you have no actual way to argue this especially since you have no way to know how immortality effects the mind. I could say that it is easy to argue that you do not gain any special benefit from gaining a new body to your mind since your mind has not changed, but in reality I have no way of truly knowing since I do not know how it would be like to be in another body.

Firstly its not unheared of in fiction for shorter lived races to learn thing faster. Secondly, there are many things in a fantasy RPG that people are able to have discusions about without handwaving the issue aside with "It doesn't actually exist".


This is why I just go with that the most likely event is that you get no special mental benefit from being in a new body as it keeps age giving you life experience benefits consistent. Otherwise I need to rationalize why the same mind gets so much more benefit from being in body A rather than body B that you get up to +3 better mental stats as that is a significant improvement (on an average person of old age that would be about a 25% increase).

The same mind in a different body gains a huge benefit, over the course of a lifetime.

[AtomicKitKat]

Since age penalties or bonuses are completely dependent on what race you are, I'd say the bonuses would disappear with any other attribute bonus dependent on race.

Close, but no cigar. The part highlighted refers to the +2 Dex/-2 Con etc. that the race gets. The age penalties or bonuses or not completely dependent upon your race, only the time taken to acquire them.

I'd allow this, but the players would of course understand that my BBEG would likewise have done the same, a millionfold.:smallbiggrin:

Also, Genesis-cheese is no fun. Grab an AD&D Ghost, have him spook you to 1 year of the next age category, spend the year adventuring, and have your Druid buddy wallop your eventual corpse over the head with a Tile of Reincarnation once you've reached it. You can also try to find an AD&D Haste to do the same. Note that both of those explicitly say you will gain the penalties, but not the bonuses of aging, if they push you into the next category. However, they make no mention of what happens if you hit the next age category naturally(but at an earlier stage than you would originally have if you hadn't encountered these 2 situations).

[LibraryOgre]

In older editions, there was the concept of "Mental age" v. "physical age". This was usually important because of the variety of effects that could age your body... you're cruising along at 39 and get hit by a haste spell and *BOOM* your body is 40, getting the penalties of middle age, but not the benefits. Of course, you'd occasionally get lucky and get deaged... a year later, when you're 41 of body and 40 of mind, you lose three years to a fountain of youth, becoming 38 of body and 40 of mind... middle age mental bonuses, but Mature Adult physical bonuses still in effect (being a mature adult gave you a +1 to Strength and Con in 1st edition; young adults only got a +1 to Con, and a -1 to Wisdom, with the wisdom penalty going away when you were mature).

This becomes important with the chain-reincarnate trick, because while your physical age would reset, your mental age would not. Thus, while you'd be back in the body of a 20-year-old, your mind would still be 40. When you chucked the body at 40 (physical)/ 60 (mental), you'd keep the mental bonuses but lose the physical penalties.... and again at 40/80, 40/100, 40/120.

So, I wouldn't allow it to constantly increase your scores. Reset your physical scores? Sure. But it's not an infinite loop for increasing your mental scores.

EDIT: And, if your DM is going to allow this, why not just put "instant reincarnation" into the properties of your Genesis Device? It worked for Spock...

[JamesonCourage]

Close, but no cigar. The part highlighted refers to the +2 Dex/-2 Con etc. that the race gets. The age penalties or bonuses or not completely dependent upon your race, only the time taken to acquire them.

The text quoted makes no such distinction. Age penalties and bonuses are, in fact, completely dependent upon your race, as each race achieves that at different times, and some races may not receive any bonus or penalty.