Yet another Scry'n'Die threat - this time used against PCs

[Privateer]

I've read a lot about the Scry and Die tactic, but it is usually discussed how PCs can sometimes circumvent much of the adventure with it. But what I'm thinking of is the effect on the party of being in a world where such tactics are accessible to high-level wizards.

First, a general point - the ability of enemies to teleport in and hit you when they see you are weak, like when you already blew through your powerful spells for the day - is troubling. Is there a good, realiable way to defend agaisnt it while adventuring, not just teleport-proofing a throne room. There is Mindblank, but it's single-person, 8th level spell, and it doesn't stop teleportation if you are found by other means, like mundane spies.

Second, Scry and Teleport make arcane casters pretty valuable in large groups, and the larger the group, the more power they can bring anywhere in the world, pretty much. Also, there is a wizard spell, which enables you to basically turn a person into your loyal servant - Mindrape. So, if there was a single wizard powerful enough to cast Scry, Teleport and Mindrape, he could have Scried, Teleported, defeated and turned into his own another wizard. Then the two of them together could have done the same to a third wizard, etc. Before you know it, there would be a global arcane organization fiercely loyal to the original wizard, which seeks out any wizard/sorc in the world who is getting powerful enough to Scry and Die, ganging up on him when he is weak, and turning him into one of them.

Why has this not yet happened in the world, aside from divine intervention? Perhaps there is some kind of a powerful "good wizards organization" that prevents it, maybe even enforces a law that arcane casters shall not congregate in large groups except in this organization? Any other ideas?

[Tyndmyr]

The problem there is not so much scry and die, it's mindrape.

Welcome to the Tippyverse. Enjoy your stay mindrape.

[Kamai]

Anticipate Teleport should give someone some time to react. 1 or 3 rounds (greater) doesn't seem like much, but that's what your bag of explosive runes is for. Darkness is also a very good spell to slow them down.

[Privateer]

I don't think I completely agree. Mindrape makes it worse, but even without it, there would be some large wizard organization and said organization could bring superior firepower against any other wizard in the land, if he disobeys its will. Whether said organization is held together by a mind-altering spell or good old corporate spirit :smallyuk: is almost irrelevant, no?

One way or another if organizing is possible and scry+teleport is possible, the party wizard would be getting a visit from the Big Evil Wizard Corporation sooner or later.

Anticipate Teleport doesn't completely solve the problem. The premise is that a large group of more powerful wizards is looking for you. If they find you and get to you, you're screwed no matter how much time you had to prepare, simply because they can bring ten or twenty wizards all of whom are above your level. The perfect defence has to stop them from being able to get to you, while enabling you to get away from them, if necessary.

[Tyndmyr]

Once a wizard has Mind Blank, there's essentially no way for them to be certain of finding him.

So, a centralized cabal of wizards is certainly possible...or even multiples of this. But they have no airtight way to prevent others from popping up.

1-3 rounds is great. Dump bag of explosive rune-carrying cards on floor, teleport away. Done deal.

[Ravens_cry]

Mutually Assured Destruction? Sure, you could scry and die me, but my friends, or your other enemies, could scry and die you and so forth. Best keep that one in the bag.
From a metagame perspective, using scry and die on PC is a bad idea. It means it is a valid tactic in the universe and therefore the PC should also be allowed to do it. That's also why I think DM should avoid using cheese builds in non-cheesy games. Not only is it often overkill, it invites the players to do likewise. After all, you set the precedent.

[Mastikator]

Detect scrying lasts 24 hours and lets you know if anyone is scying on you, and if so, who it is and where they are. It's level 4, so you get it before teleport and scrying, and right about the time that someone powerful enough to use scry and die tactics might even consider you.

I believe there's a saying about paranoia and wizards and survival on these boards that might apply.

[Privateer]

Hmm, I'm not sure I follow how destruction is mutually assured. Cabal wizards teleport in and kill you, but you can't kill them, since they outnumber you. Unless you are part of your own cabal, you can't hurt them significantly even if you somehow survived the attack.

The problem with this universe, though, is that it means everyone who's anyone in the world of wizards is in a cabal. And this restricts many adventuring storylines.

Sure, you could evade them for a while with anticipate teleportation and mines, but you don't know when they will strike, which means you can't have too many telepotation spells prepared. Their squad, though, will prepare for the chase after the first time you evaded them, and will be able to catch you.

Remember, they can attack at night, after you used some/most of your spells. They can also attack in waves and thus overwhelm you even if you dedicated every spell slot to teleport and have a sack of explosive runes prepared. First wave chases you around and heals till you run out of spells, second (or Nth if necessary) wave gets you when you're dry.

Bottom line is, an organization of wizards(or of anybody) is always more powerful than an individual wizard.

EDIT:
Detect scrying is nice, but what do you do once you know you're being scried on? They will scry, teleport, and "make you an offer you can't refuse". After that, you're either working for them, or have them trying to kill you. If it's the former, that's the end of your independent adventuring; if it's the latter, you're basically screwed.

[Shalist]

Detect scrying (http://www.imarvintpa.com/dndlive/spells.php?ID=3133)

False vision (http://www.imarvintpa.com/dndlive/spells.php?ID=3186)

Nondetection (http://www.imarvintpa.com/dndlive/spells.php?ID=3354)


Obscure object (http://www.imarvintpa.com/dndlive/spells.php?ID=3355)

Scry trap (http://www.imarvintpa.com/dndlive/spells.php?ID=6228)
Abjuration
Level: Cleric 5, sorcerer/wizard 5
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Creature touched
Duration: 1 hour/level
Saving Throw: See text
Spell Resistance: See text
You ward a creature against scrying, granting it defenses
capable of terribly wounding any would-be scryer. If the
subject of this spell comes within 10 feet of a sensor created
by a divination (scrying) spell, the scry trap automatically
activates. The caster of the scrying spell takes 1d6 points
of damage per your caster level (maximum 15d6) and is
blinded for 1 minute. A successful Will save halves the
damage and negates the blindness; spell resistance also
applies against this effect.
In addition, the caster of the scrying spell must succeed
on a caster level check (DC 10 + your caster level) or the
scrying spell is dispelled immediately (spell resistance does
not apply against this effect). The subject of scry trap becomes
automatically aware when the spell triggers, although the
subject gains no knowledge as to the nature of the scrying
spell or its caster.

And shenanigans, such as hiring a party of decoys via mundane disguises, or having an army attack they BBEG while you sneak through the back door to toss the artifact into the fiery pits in his basement, etc etc...

edit: If you want to be dirty, use 'scry trap' on multiple people, their mounts, a bag of rats, etc, just to make sure that you explode the head of anyone trying to take a peek (or dispel their scry attempt, whichever).

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

A 1st level (Cloistered) Cleric of Vecna with the feat Whispered Secrets from Races of Destiny is automatically aware of any attempt to observe him by means of a Divination (Scrying) spell or effect. If such things are regularly occurring in the setting, he'll likely go mad with paranoia, but regardless that's an infallible means of noticing every time you're scried upon available at 1st level. It also grants the perfect repertoire of spells for such a setting.

[Privateer]

Hmm, Scry Trap just might work. Although it is very expensive. 1hr/lvl means a 9th level wizard would have to burn 3 of his top-level spell slots each day to keep this up. But it does provide a way for wizards to defend against each other at higher levels, which means higher level independent wizards are theoretically possible.

And if independents are possible, then multiple competing wizard guilds are possible. And some of them are probably lenient enough to provide protection without restricting their members' actions too much.

[CigarPete]

Heck, just take a level of Adjurant Champ and by 12th level, your scry trap is an all day affair for the cost of a single 5th level spell. Certainly cheaper than Mind Blank.

[Bakkan]

A Metamagic Rod of Extend (11,000 gp) and a Caster Level of 12th would allow you to keep Scry Trap up all day with 1 5th-level slot. Alternatively, you could simply cast Extended Scry Trap from a 6th-level slot, but I would prefer to keep my 6th-level slots free until I can cast 8th-level spells (at which point the cost for the rod is negligible, so you might as well continue using it).

[The Glyphstone]

Wouldn't groups high enough level to be threatened by this sequester themselves away inside a Magnificent Mansion instead? Scrying on people in other planes (such as in the extradimensional confines of a MM) is more difficult, and even if you succeed, the interior of the mansion doesn't help you know where it is (or even that it is a Mansion) - trying to Teleport there will only end in hilarity as the spell automatically redirects you to a 'similar location'. It'd take both Planeshift/Greater Planeshift and a way of breaking the Mansion's prohibition against allowing unauthorized visitors to get at the party...and they couldn't even set up an ambush either without knowing where the door opened into the real world.

[gourdcaptain]

I know there's at least a Psionic Power (don't have access to my books right now, can't look it up) that shocks people trying to scry on you (and gives you warning, and can be manifest as an immediate) if they fail a save.