Seelie/Unseelie

[Bonecrusher Doc]

It seems every time the topic of fey comes up, people talk about seelie and unseelie creatures, but I can't seem to find these in the sourcebooks I have. Are they in one of the monster manuals? I have interest in fey playing a large part in a campaign of mine, so I bought the Celtic Age sourcebook and a D20 "Complete Guide to Fey," but neither of them seem to have the creatures/explanation of fey that the people on this board seem to talk about.

[kamikasei]

It's not a D&D thing. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classifications_of_fairies#Seelie_and_Unseelie_cou rts)

[Weimann]

I'm far from an expert myself, but I have personally always interpreted this terminology to mean roughly "nice" and "nasty". Of course, that's just a gross oversimplification, but I find it makes many texts readable.

No doubt I'll have been ninja'd by someone with a much more thorough explanation.

[Hyudra]

I'm far from an expert myself, but I have personally always interpreted this terminology to mean roughly "nice" and "nasty". Of course, that's just a gross oversimplification, but I find it makes many texts readable.

No doubt I'll have been ninja'd by someone with a much more thorough explanation.

More or less right, though it bears stressing that when it comes to faeries, even 'nice' is probably one you want to avoid on a good day. Even without those 'good' faerie who will bring hell down on your head should you insult them or betray a perceived deal (or leap at the chance to make a bargain, knowing that they can twist it against the mortal shaking their hand, for the sake of a little amusement) they're just too different from us. The general idea is that faerie, by virtue of long lives and different values, just don't jibe with us mortal folk. They can end up doing us lasting harm on a whim.

Like a brave knight who comes across one of the fey in the forest and is invited to a party. The food and drink he tastes are so good he cannot believe it, the music entrancing, the courtesans absolutely perfect. When the party ends, he marches back home only to find that his friends and king and their sons and their grandchildren have aged and died while he was gone. Food and drink and music are like sand in his mouth and the screeching of wagon wheels in his ears. With nothing to tie him to the world, he stumbles back to the forest where he met the faerie, hoping to see her again and be invited to the court to stay. His only solace is the vivid dreams where he truly feels he's back there, enjoying the dancing, the music, the food and never feeling tired.

Alas, they've grown bored with him and 'good' as they may be, they see no point in inviting him back, or showing him solace. It's on to the next party, the next diversion, all in a subtly desperate struggle to keep themselves entertained for thousands of years. They aren't bad fey, really, but that doesn't change what happened to the Knight.

Faerie are like time travel. Hero or villain, you're just going to be happier at the end of the day if you don't get involved with such.

[hamishspence]

It seems every time the topic of fey comes up, people talk about seelie and unseelie creatures, but I can't seem to find these in the sourcebooks I have. Are they in one of the monster manuals? I have interest in fey playing a large part in a campaign of mine, so I bought the Celtic Age sourcebook and a D20 "Complete Guide to Fey," but neither of them seem to have the creatures/explanation of fey that the people on this board seem to talk about.

For 3.5 D&D sources, there's Dragon Compendium (Seelie Court Fey template, Unseelie Court Fey template.

Also- Manual of the Planes suggests, for Seelie Sidhe and Unseelie Sidhe, using the half-celestial and half-fiend templates respectively, on elves.

[Jayabalard]

It's not a D&D thing. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classifications_of_fairies#Seelie_and_Unseelie_cou rts)it's not just a D&D thing, but it is a D&D thing.

[Eldan]

As a general guide:

Seelie fey amuse themselves by toying with the fates of mortals.
Unseelie fey amuse themselves by toying with the guts of mortals.

Both are whimsical, cruel and, usually, without concepts such as "compassion". A deal's a deal. If you agree to one, your fault. Even if you didn't know it was a deal.

[Draz74]

Seelie fey amuse themselves by toying with the fates of mortals.
Unseelie fey amuse themselves by toying with the guts of mortals.

When you put it that way, I think I'd prefer dealing with the Unseelie ...

[Eldan]

Another thing, and I'm not sure if it only comes from D&D:

The unseelie are more willing to accept non-fey, half-fey and assorted bastards into their ranks, if they prove useful.

The seelie, on the other hand, are snobbish. Especially about nobility and physical beauty (which, for fey, is often related).

[Ravens_cry]

Both have a strange view of morality and ethics that is like nothing we humans imagine. They are the Fantasy equivalent of Starfish Aliens, capricious as the forces of Nature, they are easily angered and can harm human without intending to with their gifts.
The difference between the Seelie and Unseelie is that the Unseelie are more likely to mean to.

[Zaydos]

One of the mythical definitions I've seen most often is:
Seelie fey do not actively mean harm to humans at this moment.
Unseelie fey do.

Which one a fey is can change as quickly as the wind, though.

Of course I don't use that in my D&D games; I go more:
Seelie fey <50% chance of wanting to mess you up for no reason.
Unseelie fey >50% chance of wanting to mess you up for no reason.

Both are likely to unintentionally mess you up, or mess you up if you give them a reason.

[Gnaeus]

In some schools of thought, it may also come down to as little as appearance. Goblins, Trolls, Driders, and other "monstrous beings" would be in the Unseelie court. Things that are human-like or prettier would be Seelie.

[Fhaolan]

Yeah, in general Unseelie are the fae that are actively malevolent towards mortals. Seelie are the ones that are passively malevolent.

While some fae may seem benevolent, they are the ultimate TANSTAAFL. There is always a price. Maybe not a sensical price to a mortal's point of view, but a price. And the price *will* be paid. One way or another.

[Fox Box Socks]

When you put it that way, I think I'd prefer dealing with the Unseelie ...
This is unsurprising. While fey in general are capricious and unpredictable, with Unseelie you sort of know what you're getting into; they actively want to cause you misfortune at every opportunity. Seelie are a bit more complicated.

Somewhat ironically, a person that you are 100% sure is untrustworthy is actually more trustworthy than a person you aren't sure if you can trust, if only because you can trust that they're going to be untrustworthy.

You may now uncross your eyes.

[flabort]

*recrosses eyes, because he still doesn't get it*

[kieza]

The way I broke it down was that seelie fey were the Summer Court, and were incredibly passionate: they did things on a whim. They might be your best friend after five minutes' conversation, and five minutes later they might have disembowelled you for offering an unintentional insult. They were more helpful to mortals, but their "gifts" would more often than not have a drawback because it seemed entertaining at the time.

The unseelie fey were the Winter Court, and were cold (no pun intended) and calculating. They wouldn't befriend you or offer you aid unless it served their own, inscrutable goals, but if you stood to serve a purpose, they'd do what they could to help you achieve it. They also wouldn't throw you away...unless it served a purpose as well.

[Fox Box Socks]

*recrosses eyes, because he still doesn't get it*
Let's say you have two friends.

The first friend, you know for a fact that's he's eventually going to betray you. After all, he's a bastard. The only question is when the betrayal happens, not if.

The second friend, you're not sure about. You know he's untrustworthy, but you don't know how untrustworthy. Not only do you need to worry about when he'll betray you, but you also need to worry about if he'll betray you at all.

In general, dealing with your first friend results in less headaches, because you can tell where he's coming from and what his goals are.

[Eldan]

Additionally, your second friend?

He'll stab you in the back, then ask you why you are angry at him. He thought you might like the knife. Then he'll forget about it before the next time you meet him again.

[Fox Box Socks]

You need to keep your eye on the Unseelie. You're never sure whether or not you need to watch the Seelie, which, ironically, means you actually need to watch them more.

[Tyndmyr]

When you put it that way, I think I'd prefer dealing with the Unseelie ...

In D&D, this is a legitimate choice. Killing your way through things is almost always a viable option.

Do not take this route in other systems, such as 7th Sea. Unseelie there are the worst of things. Killing them is generally not a serious option. There's one practical way to do so. It generally results in all Sidhe everywhere wanting you dead extremely badly.

Bargain or run.

And the best option is almost invariably avoiding them altogether.

[randomhero00]

Basically Unseelie are the devil you know. They have a terrible beauty about them. Seelie is like agents with models. They're a lot like unseelie but they hide it to look beautifal and use it for trickery.

[Marillion]

In D&D, this is a legitimate choice. Killing your way through things is almost always a viable option.

Do not take this route in other systems, such as 7th Sea. Unseelie there are the worst of things. Killing them is generally not a serious option. There's one practical way to do so. It generally results in all Sidhe everywhere wanting you dead extremely badly.

Bargain or run.

And the best option is almost invariably avoiding them altogether.

I like how they described combat with feyThe Goodly Folk in 7th Sea.

Phase 1: You attack, dealing few (if any) flesh wounds.
Phase 2: You are a maggot.

[Lateral]

Also, IIRC, the Unseelie Fey template is pretty badly overpowered.

[Jornophelanthas]

D&D 3.5 actually uses the seelie/unseelie distinction in the rules for the Wild Soul prestige class from Complete Mage.

[Caliphbubba]

I almost hate to keep linking to here(but its just so good), but I think you might find this useful

http://dicefreaks.superforums.org/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=253

[Yukitsu]

It's not a D&D thing. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classifications_of_fairies#Seelie_and_Unseelie_cou rts)

It's a bit in complete mage.

[Yuki Akuma]

ALso note that while Seeie fae are dangerous, they can be actively benevolent. If they feel like it.

Especially in D&D, where you can form long-lasting romantic relationships with them (hello Nymph's Kiss).

[Amnestic]

This is unsurprising. While fey in general are capricious and unpredictable, with Unseelie you sort of know what you're getting into; they actively want to cause you misfortune at every opportunity. Seelie are a bit more complicated.

Somewhat ironically, a person that you are 100% sure is untrustworthy is actually more trustworthy than a person you aren't sure if you can trust, if only because you can trust that they're going to be untrustworthy.

You may now uncross your eyes.

"You can always trust the untrustworthy because you can always trust that they will be untrustworthy. It's the trustworthy you can’t trust."-Captain Jack Sparrow, though that quote/variations of it have been hanging around for a while I'm sure.

[Draz74]

"Me? I'm dishonest. And a dishonest man you can always count on to be dishonest. Honestly. It's the honest ones you have to watch out for, because you never know when they're going to do something ... incredibly ... stupid!"-Captain Jack Sparrow

Fixed that for you.

[Amnestic]

Fixed that for you.

S'what I get for trusting google and not having seen the film in years.

[mobdrazhar]

i think that the best workds to describe each are Miscievious for the Seelie and Malign for the Unseelie.

The Seelie love to play tricks on mortals and are a bit blonde at times.

The Unseelie are those that god out of thier way to harm and even kill you.

[panaikhan]

If Seelie are the Summer Court, and Unseelie are the Winter Court, what are the accepted terms for the Spring and Autumn Courts?

(BTW the Changeling book from WoD details all four courts quite well, imho)

[Eldan]

Those associations aren't always used anyway, as far as I know. And Spring/Autumn courts don't tend to show up a lot in fiction.

[kamikasei]

it's not just a D&D thing, but it is a D&D thing.

It's a bit in complete mage.
To clarify: my impression from the OP was that he thought Seelie and Unseelie were terms and creature types specific to and invented for D&D. If he wanted to know what people meant by those terms, he was better off looking outside D&D, as they'd more commonly be used in their wider sense than to refer to a setting concept or group of monsters from a particular WotC product line.

[sonofzeal]

Interesting note - the Germanic word behind "Seelie" (specifically, selig) is the origin of the English word "silly". Make of that what you will.


My interpretation of it is slightly different than most. Seelie are like aristocratic french nobles with poofy hair and bizarre etiquette that must be rigorously adhered to, while Unseelie are like unwashed working class shmoes who take their work very seriously. Seelie are never safe, but you might come out ahead if you're lucky and they like you for whatever reason. Unseelie, it all depends what that particular fey is on about - if he's protecting a forest you're walking through and he takes offence, Pelor help you. An Unseelie is far more likely to actively seek out your doom, because they care about things. But by the same merit, they're also safer once you know what things they care about and how to avoid them. They're still Chaotic by our standards, but mostly just because they don't follow the same rules and logic we do. But imo, they're positively lawful compared to the Seelie. With Seelie, it doesn't matter how well you think you know them, you could wind up equally boned either way. With Unseelie you're more likely to know where you stand, even if "where you stand" and "where your intestines are" might be different questions.

[Caliphbubba]

My interpretation of it is slightly different than most. Seelie are like aristocratic french nobles with poofy hair and bizarre etiquette that must be rigorously adhered to, while Unseelie are like unwashed working class shmoes who take their work very seriously. Seelie are never safe, but you might come out ahead if you're lucky and they like you for whatever reason. Unseelie, it all depends what that particular fey is on about - if he's protecting a forest you're walking through and he takes offence, Pelor help you. An Unseelie is far more likely to actively seek out your doom, because they care about things. But by the same merit, they're also safer once you know what things they care about and how to avoid them. They're still Chaotic by our standards, but mostly just because they don't follow the same rules and logic we do. But imo, they're positively lawful compared to the Seelie. With Seelie, it doesn't matter how well you think you know them, you could wind up equally boned either way. With Unseelie you're more likely to know where you stand, even if "where you stand" and "where your intestines are" might be different questions.

That's an interesting take on the difference that I've not seen before.

If this is the way you go with things, it's more like the there isn't an Unseelie "Court" at all. Its much more like the division of Noble vs Commoner Fey that some games/myths break things into. The interesting part is that in every instance I've seen, the Fae were split into not ONLY Seelie/Unseelie "Courts" but ALSO into Noble/Commoner type divisions. The oWoD does this to a very large extent, and much of the other things I've run across have done so as well.

The only real problem I have with your vision of the Fae is that it doesn't handle the concept of indivdual Fae changing courts fluidly very well. It doesn't seem organic to me that a Fae would go from being a foppish noble to a hard working blue collar fairy. In contrast going from traditional Seelie to Unseelie is more of a shift in attitude, rather than a shift in social strata...and in my mind fits the capriciousness the Fae are known for.

[begooler]

The interpretations on this thread are more interesting than this, but, one dnd source you can look at is the Wild Soul prestige class in Complete Mage. It has a short description of the seelie and unseelie, as well as spell lists that match the two flavors.

[sonofzeal]

The only real problem I have with your vision of the Fae is that it doesn't handle the concept of indivdual Fae changing courts fluidly very well. It doesn't seem organic to me that a Fae would go from being a foppish noble to a hard working blue collar fairy. In contrast going from traditional Seelie to Unseelie is more of a shift in attitude, rather than a shift in social strata...and in my mind fits the capriciousness the Fae are known for.
The parallel isn't that strong. Fey wouldn't be "low class", or "high class", at least not in the same way. Classes in the real world were usually split along economic lines, but fey don't handle money and value in a similar way at all. It's more just that Seelie are idle and out for amusement, and Unseelie are employed and take their job relatively seriously.

For example, a Seelie Satyr has no higher obligation than his own entertainment and desires; at best he is a seducer, and at worst he could be a rapist. An Unseelie Satyr might be committed to protect an area of greenwood; at best he nurtures and tends to it, and at worst he might brutalize and kill those he sees as "defilers" and "interlopers". But it would be a mistake to think of one or the other as "lower" or "higher". The philosophy and affect of Seelie is like that of human nobles, and the philosophy and affect of Unseelie is like that of human commoners, but one should not assume that the parallel runs any further. Even the most elementary student of fey mythology will tell you that human assumptions very rarely apply.

[Sir_Ophiuchus]

This seems an appropriate place to repost this:




Sir Ophiuchus' 10 Simple Rules for Dealing with Fey:

1) Learn what rules bind them. Typically they cannot lie, but enjoy bending the truth (like Aes Sedai from the Wheel of Time, only more so). This is because, for the fey even more than for humans, words (descriptions, names, titles, promises) define reality.

2) Listen carefully to anything they say. "You may call me Bandubh" does not mean that that is their name.

3) Be extremely careful what you yourself say. Common expressions in formal speech such as "my lady", "my lord" and "at your service" should be avoided. "Your wish is my command" is right out.

4) Make no promises you cannot keep. Expect any promises you do make to be more difficult than you expect. Specific is good, time-limited is even better.

5) Accept no gifts. Remember that gifts are not always tangible.

6) Give no gifts or thanks unless appropriate. Good luck figuring out when it's appropriate.

7) Offer no insult and do not violate the rules of hospitality. These are (roughly) not to insult/attack your host or his guests, to defend his household as necessary, to receive protection from him and from his guests, to receive food and shelter from him, to be polite. Note that these cut both ways - if inviting fey into a building, ask them as guests. If they invite you, thank them for extending their hospitality to you.

8) Speak softly, and carry a cold iron blade. Learn to make circles of salt.

9) Do not give them your name, or important information about yourself. Classic answers to give to common questions include "my father's son", "a little older than my teeth and as old as my tongue", and "in front of me".

10) If possible, don't deal with fey.

[Thurbane]

In Babylon 5 terms, I always thought Vorlons = seelie and Shadows = unseelie.

[sonofzeal]

In Babylon 5 terms, I always thought Vorlons = seelie and Shadows = unseelie.
Hardly. Both Vorlons and Shadows have reasons behind their actions. Neither are capricious in the slightest, although their motives can at times be inscrutable. Both are trying to manipulate the galaxy as a whole in one direction or the other, and both with the end goal of strengthening it (although both lose sight of this goal at points).

I don't see a parallel, except that even the "good ones" are dangerous. The motives and methods and natures don't line up at all.

[Thurbane]

Despite appearances, the Vorlons and Shadows were never really about good and evil, but more about law and chaos.

The parallel to them and the faeries is that both groups are utterly alien in outlook and intentions, and both love to manipulate and meddle with mortals. YMMV.

[sonofzeal]

Despite appearances, the Vorlons and Shadows were never really about good and evil, but more about law and chaos.

The parallel to them and the faeries is that both groups are utterly alien in outlook and intentions, and both love to manipulate and meddle with mortals. YMMV.
I find that the Vorlons and Shadows are... not actually that alien, just aloof and a little condescending. They both follow easily recognizable logic. The Vorlons believe that strength comes through order, and control, and centeredness. The Shadows believe that strength comes through struggle, and striving, and adaptation. Both of those are entirely recognizable and coherent philosophies that a human might hold. Their PoV is rather different, being nearly immortal and having observed the passage of centuries, but their modus operandi actually make some sense when understood. Vorlons ask "Who Are You" because it is a centering question, draws you into yourself, helps you define and order yourself. Shadows ask "What Do You Want" because it is an externalizing question, creates a goal, gives you something to strive for.

Neither race is alien in the way I see fey as alien.

They do love to meddle though - but meddling is much more of a Seelie thing.

[rayne_dragon]

I look at it as the seelie want you to think they are your friend. The unseelie don't give a flying fig about what you think. They both tend to be the Lovecraftian Eldritch Abominations of their day. Actually, the Seelie are kind of like Nyarthalotep and Nodens combined, while the unseelie are like Yog-Sothoth, Sub-*****roth, and Azathoth... just generally slightly less maddening to behold.

Also, while the Unseelie tend to be more accepting of half-breeds and fae (or other creatures) that don't fit in with the Seelie, they do tend to be jerks to humans. The Unseelie tend to act nicer to humans in general... hence why they're commonly accepted as the "nice" ones.