[3.5]No Core Classes

[Darth Stabber]

So what would your adventuring party look like if you were not allowed to pick any of the core classes (base or prestige)? How would everything else be adjusted?

No levels of Barbarian, Bard, Cleric, Druid, Fighter, Monk, Paladin, Rogue, Ranger, Wizard, nor Sorcerer.

[DeltaEmil]

They would use base classes from the Complete book series, Player's Handbook 2 or supplements like Tome of Battle and Tome of Magic.

One thing they would always have is a martial adept with Iron Heart Surge to end evil.

[dextercorvia]

Rainbow Warsnake, Beguiler/ShadowcraftMage/UnseenSeer, Beguiler4/Spellthief/Chameleon, Totemist20

[Saph]

My party in my sandbox/stronghold campaign actually looked like this by the end of last season. Composition was Warblade, Swordsage, Dread Necromancer, Archivist, Wilder, and Binder. Worked fairly well.

[dextercorvia]

Ooh, I forgot Archivist. I may have to ditch the Warsnake....

[Shyftir]

Melee wouldn't suck, thank you TOB!
Casters would be more blasty but still very viable.
Skill Monkeys would not be as good against traps, but still pretty competent.

I actually did this once required everybody to play something non-core. It worked out okay except the Beguiler somehow managed to make himself a blaster. He abused whelm with Sudden Maximize and used the spells that make people lose actions a lot. He also nova'd through his spells then would go to sleep in a bag of holding one of the others was carrying. The party would totally destroy one encounter then be undermanned for the rest of the session. I know that whelm only does subdual damage but when combined with enough other damage to knock people unconscious the melee would go kill all the unconscious baddies.

It was pretty obnoxious honestly.

[Karsh]

Warblade or Crusader, Factotum, Archivist, Psion (Erudite if possible)

Trap dealing-with wouldn't be all that difficult. One could argue that Factotums do a better job of being rogues than rogues do.

[The Glyphstone]

You never though to throw mind-affecting immune baddies at them? Constructs, undead, vermin, etc....though if you didn't, that is a potent offense.

[Amphetryon]

My party would be Hexblade (Mearls' Fix), Crusader, Dread Necromancer, Wilder, & Scout or Binder.

EDIT: If restricted to 4 party members, the Wilder gets the boot, as much as I like it.

[Scarlet-Devil]

Assuming a classic four person party, I think I'd go for something a little like: Warlock, Scout, Warblade, Spirit Shaman. Probably not optimal, but it would be pretty interesting I think.

[Cieyrin]

Hmm, 4 member non-core party? I'd be Mearl's Hexblade, Wujen, Shugenja, Spellthief.

[Coidzor]

Rainbow Warsnake

Who in the what now with the gun in the study? :smallconfused:

[Aharon]

Who in the what now with the gun in the study?

He refers to the Rainbow Servant Prestige Class on Top of a Warmage. It's often referred to as Rainbow Warsnake because the fluff is that they revere Couatls, winged, feathered snakes.

[Cieyrin]

Who in the what now with the gun in the study? :smallconfused:

Warmage/Rainbow Servant, though I think Beguiler is a better fit these days.

[Dsurion]

It would probably look something like Knight, Swashbuckler, Warmage, and if we could find a fourth player, either Marshal or Dragon Shaman. All straight classed. Most people don't tend to like those classes, but they're favorites at our table.

[Draz74]

If you're banning all non-Core classes, why not go the extra step and ban all Vancian casting too? (And Artificer, because it's the lone remaining Tier 1.)

There are still plenty of builds for each party role in the low Tier 2 - high Tier 4 range with these restrictions. Crusader, Factotum, Egoist, Dragonfire Adept is perhaps one of the combinations that comes closest to the "iconic" party.

[Veyr]

No matter what it was, my adventuring party would look more balanced. The balance variability in the PHB is second to none...

[Lord Vampyre]

Scout, Archivist, Warblade, Dread Necromancer.

[Yora]

Wizards and Clerics could easily be replaced with Wu Jen and Shamans. Actually I like their flavor a great deal more. :D
Scout doesn't seem half bad for a skill monkey and can also do ranger stuff. Worst case you have to pick some levels of Experts to get a decent thief.
Knight and Duskblade could maybe fill the gap left by Fighters.

I think that could work quite well.

[Cartigan]

Wizards and Clerics could easily be replaced with Wu Jen and Shamans. Actually I like their flavor a great deal more. :D
Scout doesn't seem half bad for a skill monkey and can also do ranger stuff. Worst case you have to pick some levels of Experts to get a decent thief.
Knight and Duskblade could maybe fill the gap left by Fighters.

I think that could work quite well.
I am pretty sure Shamans are Druid casters. Archivists can replace Clerics, and they are more awesome.
EDIT: I am thinking Spirit Shaman, I have no idea whatever you are referring to.


Skill Monkeys would not be as good against traps, but still pretty competent.
How are Scout, Ninja, Factotum, or Beguiler any worse at dealing with traps than the Rogue?


It would probably look something like Knight, Swashbuckler, Warmage, and if we could find a fourth player, either Marshal or Dragon Shaman. All straight classed. Most people don't tend to like those classes, but they're favorites at our table.

Marshal is a trap class. Dragon Shaman pwns Marshal into the middle of next week.

[Zaydos]

Depending upon my mood during character creation:
Warmage, Warlock, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Duskblade, Hexblade, Warblade, Crusader, Swordsage, Psion, Ardent, Favored Soul, Archivist, Spirit Shaman, Shaman (OA).

The rest of the party? Well that would probably determine my mood. I usually make my character last choosing based upon party composition if I can because 1) I enjoy all the major roles (although I've drifted towards casting more and more), 2) I want to explore things I haven't yet, 3) I can take an archetype and build it for a role it's not tailor made for, and 4) if worst comes to worst I can normally shoe horn a wizard into any role and effectiveness.

[Lord.Sorasen]

I've always wanted to try a campaign of the worst base classes possible, with the best optimization one could find. I would use this opportunity to try it.

Soulknife
Trunamer
Samurai
...Oh, I guess without core you can't use monk. Maybe even commoner.

[The Glyphstone]

I've always wanted to try a campaign of the worst base classes possible, with the best optimization one could find. I would use this opportunity to try it.

Soulknife
Trunamer
Samurai
...Oh, I guess without core you can't use monk. Maybe even commoner.

Commoner is also core. Maybe Magewright from Ebberon?

[Veyr]

Magewright seems overpowered in that group....

[dextercorvia]

Ooh, I forgot Archivist. I may have to ditch the Warsnake....

Yes, I think I shall...

Archivist7/SacredExorcist1/PrestigePaladin4/Contemplative1/SacredExorcist+7 with SotAO.

I may replace the Totemist with a Spirit Shaman and the Shadowcraft Beguiler with StP Erudite.

[Gullintanni]

Yes, I think I shall...

Archivist7/SacredExorcist1/PrestigePaladin4/Contemplative1/SacredExorcist+7 with SotAO.

I may replace the Totemist with a Spirit Shaman and the Shadowcraft Beguiler with StP Erudite.

It's great! You don't even need core to CoDzilla :smallsmile:

[Tengu_temp]

Warblade, Crusader, Swordsage, Factotum.

[Coidzor]

Commoner is also core. Maybe Magewright from Ebberon?

Now there's an interesting thought. A world where all NPCs are either PC-classed, or Magewrights...

...of the non-core PC classes, who would take over animal husbandry and who would take over non-animal food production/farming? I figure Magewrights have crafting down pat at least when they're not being overshadowed by their Artificer Overlords...


I am pretty sure Shamans are Druid casters.

Shaman is originally from Oriental Adventures in 3.0 and was updated in a dragon magazine article to 3.5.

AFAIK, Shaman is a blend of cleric and druid.

[SurlySeraph]

Crusader, Ardent, Factotum, Archivist.

Fuller builds:
Crusader 15/ Deepstone Sentinel 5. Stands around being a roadblock and hits things with a spiked chain.

Ardent 2/ Hexblade 3/ Slayer 9/ Sanctified Mind 6. 19th-level manifester, +19 BAB, Mettle, PR 25, +Cha to saves vs spells, and some pretty nice immunities. Also, very good at ripping up other psychic characters.

Factotum 20. It's a Factotum.

Archivist 11/ Church Inquisitor 5/ Sacred Exorcist 1/ Contemplative 1/ Divine Oracle 2. Good casting, some decent special abilities, and DMM-capable.

Alternately: Archivist 4/ Ninja 1/ Shadowbane Stalker 3/ Spellwarp Sniper 5/ Earth Dreamer 5/ Contemplative 1/ Sacred Exorcist 1. Persists Hunter's Eye, then runs in and out of walls sneak attacking people with spellwarped Sandblast and Frost Breath spells, which are auto-stun and auto-daze, respectively.

[Fox Box Socks]

Warblade, Factotum, Archivist, Erudite, Totemist.

[dextercorvia]

It's great! You don't even need core to CoDzilla :smallsmile:

With Archivist+SotAO, that is actually WaCaDzilla (Wizard and Cleric and Druid). I'm not sure which domain power to pick up with Contemplative, though.

[The-Mage-King]

Warblade, Warlock, Dread Necromancer, Factotum. All with Tomb-Tainted Soul.

Possibly with a Crusader or Incarnum user as a fifth, and an Aura user if they needed one more. Again, with TTS.

[Gullintanni]

With Archivist+SotAO, that is actually WaCaDzilla (Wizard and Cleric and Druid). I'm not sure which domain power to pick up with Contemplative, though.

Planning is always win...especially if you're dipping into Prestige Paladin. You pick up turning IIRC. Might aswell go for DMM...perhaps a bit late to be picking up Extend Spell though. Magic is good. Inquisition isn't bad. Luck? If you're going evil, Undeath and Deathbound are both good.

[Shyftir]

I forgot about Factotums, they don't see play in my IRL group because we don't have that book. I said a little worse at dealing with traps, not incapable. Rogues get special vs. traps bonus I don't see in other classes.

Yes it's more balanced, as long as we ignore the woefully inadequate stuff like Truenamer and the Tier-1 variation stuff like Archivist and Artificer.

Honestly I can definitely see games played as only Tier 2-3 allowed, being quite full of non-core.

[Daftendirekt]

Hmmm, good party:


CAdv ninja skill monkey
Dread Necromancer with minions
Psychic Warrior to tank
Favoured Soul healer


Hell, a dedicated healer might not be necessary if the psywar tanks well enough and everybody takes tomb-tainted soul or is a necropolitan.

[Kylarra]

Dedicated healer wouldn't be necessary so long as someone can UMD a wand.

[Gullintanni]

Hmmm, good party:


CAdv ninja skill monkey
Dread Necromancer with minions
Psychic Warrior to tank
Favoured Soul healer


Hell, a dedicated healer might not be necessary if the psywar tanks well enough and everybody takes tomb-tainted soul or is a necropolitan.

Crucimigrations for everyone! Hurrah!

[The Glyphstone]

Now there's an interesting thought. A world where all NPCs are either PC-classed, or Magewrights...

...of the non-core PC classes, who would take over animal husbandry and who would take over non-animal food production/farming? I figure Magewrights have crafting down pat at least when they're not being overshadowed by their Artificer Overlords...




Howabout the Gleaner? (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/gk7uKJeF296jRcx1NJw.html)

[Vladislav]

Behold, the new 11 core classes:

Fighter -> Warblade
Paladin -> Crusader
Monk -> Swordsage
Ranger -> Scout
Sorcerer -> Warlock or Dragonfire Adept
Cleric -> Favored Soul
Druid -> Spirit Shaman
Bard -> Beguiler
Barbarian -> Totemist
Wizard -> Psion
Rogue -> Factotum

[Lans]

Marshal is a trap class. Dragon Shaman pwns Marshal into the middle of next week.
Marshal 1 is way better than Dragon Shaman 1. It kinda drops off a cliff after that.

[Fox Box Socks]

Dragon Shamans get a breath weapon, healing, and the ability to use two auras at once. Marshal just isn't very good beyond a 1 level dip.

[Vladislav]

Marshal's double-charisma bonus is a parlor trick to be used in theoretical Diplomancer builds forever. The class has no redeeming value beyond that.

[Grendus]

Marshal was initially released in the Miniatures Handbook. I'm firmly of the belief that it was meant to be more of an NPC class for large scale battles than an actual player class. Considering the healer, which is just as bad, comes from the same book, it's kind of a shame. The concept of a non-magical melee buffer is great.

You'd probably end up with a ToB taking the place of the fighter, either a scout or a factotem taking the place of the rogue, a spirit shaman, favored soul, or shugenja taking the place of the cleric, and a beguiler or dread necromancer taking the place of the wizard. The party would actually be more balanced, since we'd be looking at, at worst, a 2 tier gap (spirit shaman/favored soul as T2, shugenja or scout as T4).

Of course, Archivist and Artificer blow the curve, so the imbalance could still be there. But without the core classes it would at least be a case of "those two classes are OP" rather than "3.5 is so imbalanced".

[Cartigan]

Behold, the new 11 core classes:

Fighter -> Warblade
Paladin -> Crusader
Monk -> Swordsage
Ranger -> Scout
Sorcerer -> Warlock
Cleric -> Favored Soul
Druid -> Spirit Shaman
Bard -> Factotum
Barbarian -> Totemist
Wizard -> Psion
Rogue -> Swashbuckler
What's with the obsession with Swashbuckler around here? And how does it replace Rogue?

[Grendus]

Considering that rogue>swashbuckler (unless you go daring outlaw, in which case Rogue 3/Swashbuckler 17 is the way to go), I dunno. Factotem would replace Rogue, or maybe Beguiler if you're looking for UMD, trapfinding, and skillmonkey.

[Daftendirekt]

What's with the obsession with Swashbuckler around here? And how does it replace Rogue?

Seriously! Half the skill points, no sneak attack, a lot less class skills.

[The Glyphstone]

But it can swash and buckle at the same time!

Beguiler would be a better Rogue-substitute though.

[Vladislav]

Considering that rogue>swashbuckler (unless you go daring outlaw, in which case Rogue 3/Swashbuckler 17 is the way to go), I dunno. Factotem would replace Rogue, or maybe Beguiler if you're looking for UMD, trapfinding, and skillmonkey.

Thank you, forgot about the beguiler. Fixed.

[0Megabyte]

They're really thinking of factotum, surely.

[Kylarra]

I'd probably flip factotum and beguiler on the lists, just to keep magic and pseudomagic separate, but it's not like they aren't appropriate where they are.

[Fox Box Socks]

What's with the obsession with Swashbuckler around here? And how does it replace Rogue?

With Daring Outlaw, the Swashbuckler's class features absolutely outshine Rogue's. Without Daring Outlaw, Swashbuckler is fantastic for three levels, followed by 17 levels of junk.

[Vladislav]

They're really thinking of factotum, surely.

I already have Factotum in the 11, replacing the bard. If you want to make a case that Factotum is awesome enough to replace both Rogue and Bard, I can't really disagree :smallbiggrin:, but still, 11 old classes have to be replaced by 11 new, not 10 new.

[Cieyrin]

I already have Factotum in the 11, replacing the bard. If you want to make a case that Factotum is awesome enough to replace both Rogue and Bard, I can't really disagree :smallbiggrin:, but still, 11 old classes have to be replaced by 11 new, not 10 new.

It's more like we want to switch, Bard->Beguiler and Rogue->Factotum

[Vladislav]

It's more like we want to switch, Bard->Beguiler and Rogue->Factotum

Does it really matter? Switch if you want.

[SurlySeraph]

With Daring Outlaw, the Swashbuckler's class features absolutely outshine Rogue's. Without Daring Outlaw, Swashbuckler is fantastic for three levels, followed by 17 levels of junk.

Eh, only in straight combat, and even then Crippling Strike is better than Weakening Critical and Skill Mastery can be very good for UMD or Knowledge Devotion. Swash is better if you want to hit things and not die, but Rogue's way ahead on skills.

[Zaq]

I've always wanted to try a campaign of the worst base classes possible, with the best optimization one could find. I would use this opportunity to try it.

Soulknife
Trunamer
Samurai
...Oh, I guess without core you can't use monk. Maybe even commoner.

Divine Mind.

[Vladislav]

Eh, only in straight combat, and even then Crippling Strike is better than Weakening Critical and Skill Mastery can be very good for UMD or Knowledge Devotion. Swash is better if you want to hit things and not die, but Rogue's way ahead on skills.The people who take the Daring Outlaw build want a melee rogue, therefore, to them, the bolded argument is the only one that matters.

[FMArthur]

Just Psionics + ToB covers almost everything and would be incredibly well-balanced barring Soulknife and Lurk. You'd be missing Gets Along With Animals Man, however, which is a very classic Druid archetype (which is horribly overshadowed by the 'Bearstorm' Druid that players actually make anyway).

[Volthawk]

Just Psionics + ToB covers almost everything and would be incredibly well-balanced barring Soulknife and Lurk. You'd be missing Gets Along With Animals Man, however, which is a very classic Druid archetype (which is horribly overshadowed by the 'Bearstorm' Druid that players actually make anyway).

Ardent with Natural World mantle gets Wild Empathy and Metamorphosis, so they could work as a stand-in for Druids.

[Zaydos]

Just Psionics + ToB covers almost everything and would be incredibly well-balanced barring Soulknife and Lurk. You'd be missing Gets Along With Animals Man, however, which is a very classic Druid archetype (which is horribly overshadowed by the 'Bearstorm' Druid that players actually make anyway).

Unfortunately the rogue-like character is limited to lurk as ToB lacks trapfinding, and Divine Mind is also rather bad if I remember correctly. Psionic rogue from Wizards' site might fix this but it would go against the no core classes thing a bit.

[Lateral]

Psion, Psion, Factotum, Crusader, Warblade.

Why two psions? 'Cause they kick ass.

[Darth Stabber]

You'd be missing Gets Along With Animals Man, however, which is a very classic Druid archetype (which is horribly overshadowed by the 'Bearstorm' Druid that players actually make anyway).

Bring Incarnum into it. Totemist is good with animals, and hits like a pack of bears. (despite having nothing bear related in his class abilities, or fluff)

[[CLASSIFIED]]

Archivist, Artificer, Erudite or Psion, and maybe a Swordsage or Beguiler.

[electricbee]

I had the idea of an all non-PHB world.

The general concept of the campaign world is that at some point in the distant past, the bad guys won. As retaliation for their chosen races being destroyed, the gods of the good aligned races (dwarves elves gnomes and Halflings plus the good human deities etc) left the realm, and when they left the stripped from it the magical infrastructure that allowed for spell casting. Magic was still present, but spell casting wouldn't work anymore for any class. As a result eventually the evil races' deities lost most of their influence as their clergy lost the magic granted by deities that allowed them to enforce the gods' will. As a result of losing their racial foes, eventually the remaining races of the realms turned to constructive and creative endeavors, civilizing themselves in the process

After discussion we've decided on a list of allowable base Classes:

Binder (Tome of Magic)
Crusader (Tome of Battle)
Dragon Shaman (PHB II)
Factotum (Dungeonscape)
Incarnate (Magic of Incarnum)
Knight (PHB II)
Scout (Complete Adventurer)
Shadow (A renamed Complete Adventurer Ninja)
Swordsage (Tome of Battle)
Totemist (Magic of Incarnum)
Truespeaker (Tome of Magic)
Warblade (Tome of Battle)
Warlock (Complete Arcane)

And the following races (though built to be level 0 civilized versions, not just pulled out of the MM)

Goblyns (Fae themed Machiavellian traders and merchants, they are medium sized, green skinned, have a racial penchant for misleading truth telling rather than outright lying.)

Kobolds (Small lizard like humanoids, famed for the abilities at mining and artifice)

Orcs (Factionalized and balkanized, many different city states, that tend more towards rivalry and competition with occasional border skirmishes than outright bloodshed and warfare)

Necrosi (A scratch built race that are as close to being undead as ebberon's warforged are to being constructs (scratch built in a literal sense as well, they are rudely stitched together amalgams of the dead of other races)

Minotaurs (Pastoral Humanoid farmers with a strong clan and tribe feel, Racial abilities include well developed direction sense and the ability to bellow, allowing them to shout messages to allies up to a mile or so away)

Shadow elves (Jungle and desert dwelling descendants of the drow, lack of exposure to the underdark has robbed them innate magical abilities and spell resistance. They are a secretive people, trading with the other races, but not welcoming them into their territories

[Veyr]

snip...
I would totally play in that campaign. It sounds awesome. The Necrosi are a cool idea.

[Cieyrin]

Switch Truespeaker with Shadowcaster and you got a deal.

[The Glyphstone]

Or just eliminate Truenamer entirely, for it being a Trap to the Nth degree. Shadowcaster would be a good substitute though, especially with the Designer's unofficial webfix.

[Veyr]

The Dragon Shaman, Ninja, Scout, and Shadowcaster (and Warlock before level 12/if he doesn't make great use of Imbue Item) will be considerably less powerful than the rest of those classes (which are rather close in power level). The designer's fix to the Shadowcaster doesn't quite do enough, I think.

[The Glyphstone]

I wouldn't say 'considerably'. They're all Tier 3 and 4 classes, and a fairly good selection of such. The Ninja and Truenamer (or Shadowcaster) would probably be the only really lackluster ones - Warlocks can handle themselves within the niche they select by good invocation choices, and Dragon Shamans can be fantastic.

[Lord.Sorasen]

Divine Mind.

This class must be absolutely terrible, because up until now I've never heard of it. What makes it terrible? What is it?

[The Glyphstone]

This class must be absolutely terrible, because up until now I've never heard of it. What makes it terrible? What is it?

It's like a nerfed paladin, that also took the Psionics fluff and beat it senseless with a spiked club.

[MeeposFire]

Well a marshal can get the double draconic aura by spending two feats and making sure you somehow get the dragon blood subtype so I am not sure about how much better dragon shaman as it is fairly weak (you will then have 4 auras compared to two for the shaman). If you want breathweapon go Dragonfire Adept which is awesome.

[Devmaar]

My current party is a Crusader, Factotum/Swordsage, Artificer, Wizard and Druid. I guess the Druid would become a Spirit Shaman and the Wizard would, I don't know, Archivist? Beholder Mage?

[Chilingsworth]

I've always wanted to try a campaign of the worst base classes possible, with the best optimization one could find. I would use this opportunity to try it.

Soulknife
Trunamer
Samurai
...Oh, I guess without core you can't use monk. Maybe even commoner.

You could throw in a Marshal with that group, or a healer without expanded spell options.

[FMArthur]

Unfortunately the rogue-like character is limited to lurk as ToB lacks trapfinding, and Divine Mind is also rather bad if I remember correctly. Psionic rogue from Wizards' site might fix this but it would go against the no core classes thing a bit.

Bah, traps only negatively impact the game anyway. And yeah I forgot about the Divine Mind. Ardents and Crusaders fill its niche respectably so it can be canned. I'm sort of loathe to give up all the goodies Complete Psionic brings to the table but for a truly simplified game just using EPH + ToB probably has the best concentration of simplicity, functionality and balance. I really like Ardents and Erudites though.

[SurlySeraph]

This class must be absolutely terrible, because up until now I've never heard of it. What makes it terrible? What is it?

Here are some details on it. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20060918) It's like a paladin, except with all the good class features replaced by very meh auras and BAB reduced to 3/4. Also, it's all about how you get granted psychic powers by your deity. The idea of getting mantles linked to your philosophy/ religion is OK - Ardent makes it work - but directly granted by a deity? Psionics fluff doesn't really work that way.

[MeeposFire]

Incarnates can do the skill monkey thing even the trapfinding.

Traps can be effective if you use them to enhance an encounter with monsters or as some sort of complex challenge to overcome (where a single check with disable device wont do the trick).

[Veyr]

This class must be absolutely terrible, because up until now I've never heard of it. What makes it terrible? What is it?
It's a Psionics (read: magic that comes purely from within) class that can fall. If it was the only travesty in Complete Psionic (and it most certainly is not), it would still make Complete Psionic the worst book WotC ever published for 3.5, if only for the fact that it contains a Psionic class that can fall.

[Lans]

Dragon Shamans get a breath weapon, healing, and the ability to use two auras at once. Marshal just isn't very good beyond a 1 level dip.
Marshals can get 4 auras going at once. A Minor, a Major, and two Draconic ones due to a dragon magic ACF I believe. The breath weapon is meh. I pretty much put them both at tier 4 with the Dragon Shaman having the edge due to its healing and divination abilities.


Marshal's double-charisma bonus is a parlor trick to be used in theoretical Diplomancer builds forever. The class has no redeeming value beyond that.
As a boost it is pretty devastating. It can get trip attempts from 50/50 to a 15 or so point difference. Handle Animal shenanigans, UMD, bonus to saves. A lot of what it does it does pretty good.


Bring Incarnum into it. Totemist is good with animals, and hits like a pack of bears. (despite having nothing bear related in his class abilities, or fluff)

The Totemist can be even more empathetic with animals than the druid can. I'm not sure what Wild Empathy does, but he can get +32 on it compared to a druid. Before his capstone feature which adds another 30 to that.



I wouldn't say 'considerably'. They're all Tier 3 and 4 classes, and a fairly good selection of such. The Ninja and Truenamer (or Shadowcaster) would probably be the only really lackluster ones - Warlocks can handle themselves within the niche they select by good invocation choices, and Dragon Shamans can be fantastic.
Their is are two quick Truenamer fixes.
1 Change the formula from 15+(2*CR) to 15+(1.5CR)
2 Change the formula t0 15+CR+2*Utterance Level.

[Cieyrin]

The Totemist can be even more empathetic with animals than the druid can. I'm not sure what Wild Empathy does, but he can get +32 on it compared to a druid. Before his capstone feature which adds another 30 to that.

Wild Empathy is Diplomacy for animals and magical beasts.

[Lans]

Wild Empathy is Diplomacy for animals and magical beasts.
So a Totemist can easily have a friendly Tarrasque.

[Cieyrin]

So a Totemist can easily have a friendly Tarrasque.

You can pet him and hug him and name him George. :smallbiggrin:

[Zaq]

Their is are two quick Truenamer fixes.
1 Change the formula from 15+(2*CR) to 15+(1.5CR)
2 Change the formula t0 15+CR+2*Utterance Level.

I really, really wish that people would stop saying things like that. Making the DCs sane is an important first step, but doing so does NOT make the truenamer playable.

[Lans]

I really, really wish that people would stop saying things like that. Making the DCs sane is an important first step, but doing so does NOT make the truenamer playable.
It makes it very playable. It might not be as good as a wizard,cleric, or warblade, but its going to be higher than a monk.

[Draz74]

I really, really wish that people would stop saying things like that. Making the DCs sane is an important first step, but doing so does NOT make the truenamer playable.


It makes it very playable. It might not be as good as a wizard,cleric, or warblade, but its going to be higher than a monk.

Agreed with Lans. Utterances are pretty weak; even with low DCs the Truenamer will be a weak class. But definitely "playable." Tier 4 probably.

[Zaq]

Without either getting rid of the Law of Sequence or increasing the power of Utterances (say, to the level of most Invocations), the truenamer is going to be on the level of the healer at best.

Changing the Truespeak DC and removing the Law of Sequence will bring them up to low T4. Getting rid of the LoS is critical, though.

[Nerocite]

Knight for Tank, Factotum for Skill monkey, Favored Soul for Healbot, and Warlock for Spellcaster.

[Lans]

Without either getting rid of the Law of Sequence or increasing the power of Utterances (say, to the level of most Invocations), the truenamer is going to be on the level of the healer at best.

Changing the Truespeak DC and removing the Law of Sequence will bring them up to low T4. Getting rid of the LoS is critical, though.
Is the Laws pretty easily by passable.

Edit-In a RAW, Probably not RAI way