Necoho the Doubter, Chaos God of Atheists

[aazru]

How would you make/handle him in DnD?
This thread is just for fun =]

[Morph Bark]

Source, please?

[aazru]

http://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/Necoho

[Amphetryon]

He's from WHFRPG, specifically campaign called The Enemy Within.

[Morph Bark]

Ah, I was under the impression there were only four Chaos Gods.

In DnD, I'd prolly have him have cult of people who constantly doubted his existence. He would only be half-real and thus not have much in the way of divine power. Perfect for a humour campaign. :smallwink:

[Caliphbubba]

early entry shenanagians mystic theurge/ur-priest maybe.

Divine Rank: 0 quasi-deity

maybe a vestige.

[Veyr]

D&D seems (though it's notoriously inconsistent about this) to operate on mythopoeic principles: if enough people honestly believe something exists, their belief can shape the universe and make it happen. If a god loses too many beleivers, it dies. So by believing in this Necoho, they'd make him exist, which would mean that there is at least that one god, which makes atheism impossible.

Generally speaking, atheism is utterly nonsensical in a world where you can talk to the gods and go visit them. Unless you want to argue semantics about how they're not actually "gods", just super-powerful Outsiders (but then I'd ask, "What is a god?").


The "Vote Up A Campaign Setting" project "Hourglass of Zihaja" in the homebrew forums has a sort of twist on this: almost all of the gods are not real except Zihaja himself, and every time some heroic figure gains enough believers to elevant him or her to deific levels, Zihaja absorbs that figure so that praying to the other "god" amounts to actually praying to Zihaja. At least, I think that's how it works.

[Dimers]

"What is a god?"

A miserable little pile of worshippers?

[Lord_Gareth]

Alternately, his portfolio of atheism could cause every strident assertation of doubt to be like a prayer to him.

[Gensh]

Alternately, his portfolio of atheism could cause every strident assertation of doubt to be like a prayer to him.

That's what I did for my god of atheism, misotheism, and HECK YEAH MORTALS! Any time anyone doubts the existence of gods, expresses hatred towards the gods (but not one in particular), believes that s/he can overcome something through sheer force of will, or kills an outsider for the sake of killing an outsider, or generates taint (when in use), the Archimon gains a little bit of power. His few worshippers generally take the Apostate [Vile] feat or if clerics, levels in the Dragon Magazine version of the Athar prestige class, in order to have something to back up their claims of the gods being fake in a world where you can actually talk to them.

[Rixx]

A miserable little pile of worshippers?

But enough talk; have at you!

[hewhosaysfish]

Unless you want to argue semantics about how they're not actually "gods", just super-powerful Outsiders (but then I'd ask, "What is a god?").

Indeed. That concept has always bugged me.

It's like asserting that those creatures in the stables are not actually horses, they're just ungulates related to but distinct from ponies, donkeys and zebras, domesticated as a beast of burden. Real horses are much larger, at least 10 times the size; no-one's ever seen one but we're sure they exist and when we find one it'll show that everyone that those fake horses were fake fakes all along!!!:smallfurious:!!

[Jayabalard]

How would you make/handle him in DnD?
This thread is just for fun =]I would have him be close friends with Bilious, the Oh God of hangovers.

[Weezer]

The one rationalization for an 'atheist' in a D&D like world that makes any sense to me is disbelieving that the gods deserve worship. Even good gods manipulate their worshippers for their own ends, demand protection bribes, and all round just act superior when all they really are is powerful people. Why do what boils down to big people in the sky deserve worship?

This isn't strictly atheism, but it would come to the same end result, namely not worshipping gods.

[Killer Angel]

I don't know. The concept leaves me doubtful...

[FMArthur]

In Eberron as far as I've been told, gods are a very nebulous, noninterventionalist source of divine power. If this is true to a great enough extent then one could probably make the case that the gods as viewed and worshipped by mortals are merely constructs of the speculation and imagination of the organized religions. They might exist and be hammer-wielding, benevolent, wrathful dudes with agendas, or they might be nonsentient clouds of raw divine energy drifting through the cosmos that worshippers apply labels to. And thus arise atheist beliefs in a magic world. Atheists who can tap into divine power as proof of their assertion but really just receive it from the patron deity of doubt.

[Chuckthedwarf]

He'd have to be a godly version of Ur-priest or something. Because without followers, there are no dieties, generally.

Otherwise, there's nothing with the idea. His whole message could be that gods are merely super-powered mortals who do not deserve worship, which is reasonable enough considering how often regular mortals become gods in fantasy and some mythology. D&D too, I'm pretty sure Vecna's like that. Not to mention all the generic "evil cult leader striving to become god oh noes".

Why not? The only reason it's "evil" is because those who did it way before you are afraid of competition.

[Chuckthedwarf]

The one rationalization for an 'atheist' in a D&D like world that makes any sense to me is disbelieving that the gods deserve worship. Even good gods manipulate their worshippers for their own ends, demand protection bribes, and all round just act superior when all they really are is powerful people. Why do what boils down to big people in the sky deserve worship?

This isn't strictly atheism, but it would come to the same end result, namely not worshipping gods.

Anti-theism also fits the bill here.

[Chuckthedwarf]

Indeed. That concept has always bugged me.

It's like asserting that those creatures in the stables are not actually horses, they're just ungulates related to but distinct from ponies, donkeys and zebras, domesticated as a beast of burden. Real horses are much larger, at least 10 times the size; no-one's ever seen one but we're sure they exist and when we find one it'll show that everyone that those fake horses were fake fakes all along!!!:smallfurious:!!

But considering that any mortal with sufficient enough interest and luck can become a god... Being a god is kind of like being really, really, really rich and influential. You do not worship the president of US (Okay, bad example, presidents do not nearly hold so much power alone) just because he's technically in control of billions of dollars, huge army and nuclear arms and could easily destroy you. He's just stronger and richer then you are.

So why shouldn't the same idea apply to gods? A god who "punishes" unbelievers is merely an equivalent to a playground bully. Yes, he's stronger. Yes, he's using his strength to make YOU give HIM your lunch. Or belief. Whatever.

And considering that deities in D&D very clearly can die, be killed, or simply fall out of favour and be forgotten, or even be replaced, only supports the idea that they are not even some kind of eternal forces of the universe or something. Magic probably is. They, at best, hold a job with a certain portfolio of activities that entitles them to a certain amount of power - and can be "fired" from that job.

[Shyftir]

But considering that any mortal with sufficient enough interest and luck can become a god... Being a god is kind of like being really, really, really rich and influential. You do not worship the president of US (Okay, bad example, presidents do not nearly hold so much power alone) just because he's technically in control of billions of dollars, huge army and nuclear arms and could easily destroy you. He's just stronger and richer then you are.

So why shouldn't the same idea apply to gods? A god who "punishes" unbelievers is merely an equivalent to a playground bully. Yes, he's stronger. Yes, he's using his strength to make YOU give HIM your lunch. Or belief. Whatever.

And considering that deities in D&D very clearly can die, be killed, or simply fall out of favour and be forgotten, or even be replaced, only supports the idea that they are not even some kind of eternal forces of the universe or something. Magic probably is. They, at best, hold a job with a certain portfolio of activities that entitles them to a certain amount of power - and can be "fired" from that job.

Welcome to Toril.

[Veyr]

In Eberron as far as I've been told, gods are a very nebulous, noninterventionalist source of divine power. If this is true to a great enough extent then one could probably make the case that the gods as viewed and worshipped by mortals are merely constructs of the speculation and imagination of the organized religions. They might exist and be hammer-wielding, benevolent, wrathful dudes with agendas, or they might be nonsentient clouds of raw divine energy drifting through the cosmos that worshippers apply labels to. And thus arise atheist beliefs in a magic world. Atheists who can tap into divine power as proof of their assertion but really just receive it from the patron deity of doubt.
True, atheism in Eberron is believable.

[Yuki Akuma]

Necoho doesn't just gain power when people doubt he exists, he gains power when people doubt any god exists.

In the Warhammer 40k version, the Cult of the Emperor is the only thign stopping him from becoming as powerful as, say, Slaanesh.