Magic the Gathering IX: Gone Through Lotus of Threads Already! [Archive]

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Squark

2011-03-10, 02:27 PM

http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd293/Uncle_Festy/Planeswalkers.pnghttp://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd293/Uncle_Festy/AkromaBanner.png
Yet another Magic thread by me, Shas'aia Toriia! 'Cause I'm sure you weren't sick of looking at me yet!
All art by Uncle Festy. Worship him for his god like art skills.
Also, he takes requests. Sometimes. Usually he bites your head off if he isn't in the 'art' mood.

It's the 9th official Magic: the Gathering thread on Giantitp forums!
This is the place for everything regarding the game - rules questions, your own card creations, decks, reports, rants about recent sets/cards/rules changes, the storyline, favorite cards/colors/sets/characters/pros/articles, the absolute glory/terrible creation that is Elder Dragon Highlander, whatever you can think of.
And definitely don't be shy if you're new to the game or think about starting. We're pretty casual players around here anyway. (Except, you know, those of us who play in tourneys.)

If you want, you can post decks and have them placed here in a list similar to the one below! Just, you know, tell us. Definitely multiple times because we'll forget. Actually, it's better off if you PM me.
The Deck Gallery:

Shas'aia Toriia's RDW Flamekin
Creatures
4x Nova Chaser (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=140239)
4x Incandescent Soulstoke (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=139730)
4x Smokebraider (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=139465)
4x Flamekin Harbinger (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=139463)
4x Flamekin Bladewhirl (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=140343)
4x Vengeful Firebrand (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=153153)
2x Changeling Berserker (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=145804)
2x Brighthearth Banneret (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=152651)
2x Sootstoke Kindler (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=153989)
1x Stigma Lasher (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=153049)

Other Spells
4x Lash Out (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=145987)
4x Flame Javelin (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=189220)
2x Soul's Fire (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=174951)

Land
17x Mountain (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=190585)
2x Ghitu Encampment (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=106564)

That deck focuses on getting the kill as fast as possible, and is an extremely simple deck to play - I gave it to my mom, and she managed to beat me with it, twice out of three games. The other one was multiplayer, and did manage to take down somebody else before I did the same to her.
It has a very good record, wins most games it plays and consistenly trounces my Faerie deck.

Start the game off by playing Flamekin Harbinger to tutor up either Nova Chaser or the Soulstoke, depending on what you need more. Then play Smokebraider for some cheap mana. Play Incandescent Soulstoke turn three, and up to 3 Nova Chasers through the Soulstoke's ability turn 4 for the win. :smallbiggrin:
If they somehow survive this, just champion Flamekin Harbinger, fling your Nova Chasers and Changeling Berserkers at the opponent. When they do, search up a new one and do it again! Vengeful Firebrand is great end game. He'll likely have haste from one of the many warriors in the deck, and his firebreathing effect quickly escalates from Smokebraider's ability.

Conspiring Ultimatums, a truly magical, non-budget deck by tgva88892 Maelstrom Archangel (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=185136)
3 Wort, the Raidmother (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=147379)
4 Birds of Paradise (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=129906)
4 Sprouting Thrinax (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=174863)

1 Cruel Ultimatum (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=175079)
1 Violent Ultimatum (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=175135)
1 Conflux (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=179437)
1 Spitting Image (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=154261)
1 Din of the Fireherd (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=146733)
4 Naya Charm (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=137905)
4 Fertile Ground (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=139502)
3 Garruk Wildspeaker (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=140205)
2 Lavalanche (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=180612)
4 Maelstrom Pulse (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=180613)
1 Cloven Casting (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=189653)
2 Rupture Spire (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=142301)

4 Vivid Crag (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=141882)
4 Vivid Grove (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=141879)
4 Reflecting Pool (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=152158)
3 Mountain
2 Swamp
5 Forest

Gameplay:
When playing this deck, it's important to survive the early game. Once you get into the late game, any deck without an abundance of counterspells will suddenly be faced with an onslaught of powerful spells. Between the 5 game-winners, one being a repeatable spell, the 4 Naya Charms, and the 3 Primal Commands and 4 Cone of Flames to control the game a bit, this deck should have no problem pushing through a late-game backbreaker. Maelstrom Archangel is there to help you push through some spells; after all, it's not very likely you'll be able to play two Ultimatums in one turn, is it?

In terms of your early game, the key to surviving is to play Sprouting Thrinax, Naya Charm, and Cone of Flame as much as possible to slow down your foe. In addition, don't be afraid to take a bit of damage; you can afford to go down to 10 or even 5 before you're really in dire straits. The Primal Commands can gain you some important life early on, and it's not uncommon to be casting Maelstrom Archangel on turn 5 if it's in your opener, so the Angel can act as a last-ditch blocker if need be. Garruk's Beast tokens are also extremely helpful in surviving to your big guns, and Garruk himself provides you some acceleration that can get you there faster.

Naya Charm is truly your ace in the hole. Acting as Regrowth, Lash Out, and a fourth of Cryptic Command is truly something amazing. However, don't be afraid to spend Naya Charm early on. If you get Wort up and running, you can recycle your Naya Charms with your other cards extremely easily.

Remember, the objective with this deck is to conspire ridiculous spells for ridiculous fun. If you're about to lose, don't be afraid to Conspire Conflux and show off your deck in a glorious fashion. It's all about making big explosions, after all!

Mirrinus' "Norg'Creatures:
4 Cloud Sprite (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Cloud%20Sprite)
4 Spellstutter Sprite (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Spellstutter%20Sprite)
4 Pestermite (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Pestermite)
3 Thieving Sprite (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Thieving%20Sprite)
3 Latchkey Faerie (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Latchkey%20Faerie)
4 Ninja of the Deep Hours (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Ninja%20of%20the%20Deep%20Ho urs)
2 Okiba-Gang Shinobi (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Ninja%20of%20the%20Deep%20Ho urs)

Instants:
4 Mana Leak (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Mana%20Leak)
4 Agony Warp (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Agony%20Warp)
3 Rend Flesh (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Rend%20Flesh)
2 Condescend (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Condescend)

Lands:
4 Terramorphic Expanse (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Terramorphic%20Expanse)
7 Swamp
12 Island

Sideboard:
2 Mistblade Shinobi (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Mistblade%20Shinobi)
3 Echoing Truth (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Echoing%20Truth)
3 Negate (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Negate)
3 Remove Soul (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Remove%20Soul)
4 Peppersmoke (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Peppersmoke)

The basic strategy is to play evasive creatures with nice CIP abilities, then bounce them with ninja to replay them again, gaining tons of card advantage. Save the instant counters for things you can't handle, like high cost spells that Spellstutter Sprite can't hit, or board-wiping spells. The deck has lots of disruption and can usually play pretty aggressively. Nearly every spell can potentially 2-for-1 the opponent, giving me control of the game thanks to my strong card advantage. It's a very cheap deck to build due to being made entirely of commons, yet I find that it's still a solid deck to play in other casual formats as well. Its biggest weaknesses appear to be board-sweeping spells and pingers, so my sideboard is built to accomidate either of those threats. Peppersmoke handles most pingers and can decimate casual aggro decks. Remove Soul is also good against aggro, while Negate is for control decks that have been popular lately. Echoing Truth is to stop pauper storm decks based on Empty the Warrens, and the Mistblade Shinobi is for keeping midrange creature decks off balance.

Mirrinus' Pauper Mono White ControlDeck: Sarutabaruta (or just call it Pauper Mono-W Control)
Format: MTGO Pauper Classic

Creatures
4 Order of Leitbur (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?id=159188)
3 Shade of Trokair (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=shade%20of%20trokair)
4 Noble Templar (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Noble%20Templar)

Instants
4 Judge Unworthy (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Judge%20Unworthy)
3 Dawn Charm (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Dawn%20Charm)
3 Holy Light (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Holy%20Light)
4 Fire at Will (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Fire%20at%20Will)
4 Unmake (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Unmake)

Sorceries
1 Cenn's Enlistment (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Cenn's%20Enlistment)

Enchantments
4 Oblivion Ring (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Oblivion%20Ring)
2 Faith's Fetters (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Faith's%20Fetters)

Lands
20 Plains
4 Secluded Steppe (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Secluded%20Steppe)

Sideboard
4 Circle of Protection: Red (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Circle%20of%20Protection:%20 Red)
1 Circle of Protection: Black (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=circle%20of%20protection:%20 black)
4 Kami of Ancient Law (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Kami%20of%20Ancient%20Law)
1 Holy Light (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Holy%20Light)
1 Cenn's Enlistment (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Cenn's%20Enlistment)
4 Relic of Progenitus (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Relic%20of%20Progenitus)

(Note: the circles of protection were common when printed in 7th edition, so they're legal for pauper.)

Anyway, I realized that most decks for pauper are creature-heavy, due to the lack of mass removal. So I built a deck designed to crush aggro strategies. I run a wealth of removal spells, some of which can earn card advantage. My creatures are few, but are versatile and are great both early and late game, oftentimes utilizing my excess mana to the fullest. The Kami of Ancient Law in the sideboard is mostly to switch in against creature-light decks as an early beater, or to replace Holy Light against white decks. I figure that if a deck is playing white, it's likely to be playing white enchantment-based removal like Oblivion Ring or Temporal Isolation, so the Kami would be great at keeping my other creatures clear of these answers.

What I'm still considering, though, is the removal suite. I like Fire at Will for its potential for card advantage, particularly against weenie swarms like Slivers. Unmake is also great simply for the lack of the attack/blocker clause. The Dawn Charms are there mostly for versatility, as I can usually think of a good use for it. I'm not sure if I should be maindecking the Holy Lights, though. So far, they've only been useful against pinger decks, Empty the Warrens, and certain elf builds. However, given that Storm may be one of the best pauper builds, Holy Light affords me with my best chance of trumping Empty the Warrens. But most of all, I'm debating Judge Unworthy. On one hand, having 8 removal spells that require attacking/blocking is kind of restrictive; on the other hand, it's my cheapest removal spell, and my only removal option for turn 2. The Scry is oftentimes a toss-up; getting rid of excess land is great, but I've had instances where I needed to draw another land, but can't put a land on top of my deck with Scry if I want to kill a creature. I guess Temporal Isolation is a possible substitute, but it's pretty lousy in the Silvers matchup, which is perhaps the most common deck played in the pauper casual room as of late.

I'm still debating whether Relic of Progenitus should be in the sideboard; perhaps I could use more aggro options to switch in against creature-light decks, even though those tend to be fewer in number for this format.

Mirrinus' Mirror Sheen Combo
Format: Extended, preferably for 2HG

Creatures
4 Drift of Phantasms (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Drift%20of%20Phantasms)
4 Plumeveil (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Plumeveil)

Enchantments
3 Mirror Sheen (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Mirror%20Sheen)

Instants
3 Swerve (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Swerve)
4 Hinder (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Hinder)
4 Electrolyze (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Electrolyze)
1 Oona's Grace (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=oona's%20grace)

Sorceries
4 Compulsive Research (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Compulsive%20Research)
3 Conflagrate (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Conflagrate)
2 Cone of Flame (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Cone%20of%20Flame)
1 Walk the Aeons (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Walk%20the%20Aeons)

Artifacts
4 Izzet Signet (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=izzet%20signet)

Lands
4 Vivid Creek (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Vivid%20Creek)
4 Vivid Crag (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Vivid%20Crag)
4 Izzet Boilerworks (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Izzet%20Boilerworks)
1 Mountain
10 Islands

So, what does this deck do? At its core, this deck is made to abuse Mirror Sheen with various effects that can target me. Beneficial effects like Compulsive Research, Oona's Grace, and Walk the Aeons can be spread to both myself and my teammate, especially in MTGO 2HG, where turns are taken separately. Meanwhile, burn spells like Electrolyze, Cone of Flame, and Conflagrate can spread their damage to point just 1 damage at me, allowing me to copy them as well.

My plan is to lay down some beefy blockers and control the board with versatile burn while building up mana and drawing cards for both me and my partner. Lots of card drawing spells plus Drift of Phantasms allows me to quickly find Mirror Sheen, while Hinder (my counterspell of choice in extended) and Swerve protect me and my flagship enchantment. With Mirror Sheen on the board, most of my spells become super-charged. Eventually, I will seek to win the game with a huge, crazy turn. Most commonly, I'll flashback Conflagrate for just 2 mana, discarding my hand of 7-8 cards and targetting myself with just 1 point of its damage, then pump all of my mana into copying that huge Conflagrate. With 8 mana available and 7 cards in hand, that's 20 damage divided as I choose, perfect for eliminating all blockers for my partner's alpha strike, or just sending it all to the dome. Or I can copy Walk the Aeons (and buy it back) before this too. Either way, my other goal is to supercharge my partner's deck, which I hope will make the game very fun for both of us. Most players appreciate being given extra cards and turns, right?

I still have no idea what I would do for the sideboard, as that doesn't usually come up for 2HG, but it might matter if I take the deck out for a spin in 1-on-1 duels, where it'd play more like a combo deck with heavy control elements. I'm also not sure about a few individual choices. Should I run cheaper burn that can't synergize well with Mirror Sheen? Are more board sweepers necessary? Do I have enough defense to avoid being run over in the early game? Is my mana base stable enough to support UUU for Plumeveil and RR in Cone of Flame and Conflagrate, or should I cut the Cone of Flames? Is Cone of Flames even worth 5 mana? Is Swerve any good at all? (It can counter counterspells by changing their target!)

Mirrinus' Game of Life
Format: Extended, both duels and FFA

Creatures
4 Leonin Squire (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=72722)
4 Trinket Mage (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=50163)
1 Auriok Salvagers (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=51166)
2 Magus of the Disk (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=126298)
3 Mulldrifter (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=189217)
3 Shriekmaw (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=146175)
3 Twilight Shepherd (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=152060)

Artifacts
4 Chromatic Star (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=135279)
1 Voyager Staff (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=88991)
1 Sunbeam Spellbomb (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=48214)
1 Æther Spellbomb (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=48113)
1 Wayfarer's Bauble (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=51110)
1 Executioner's Capsule (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=174895)
1 Dispeller's Capsule (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=174830)

Instants
4 Momentary Blink (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=109733)
3 Makeshift Mannequin (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=139670)

Lands
4 Terramorphic Expanse (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=129881)
4 Flagstones of Trokair (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=116733)
1 Mistveil Plains (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=142014)
1 Azorious Chancery
1 Orzhov Basilica
7 Plains
3 Island
2 Swamp

This deck is built around my personal favorite creature, Twilight Shepherd. It started out as a simple WUB blink deck, but then morphed into a toolbox-style deck revolving around 1-mana artifacts. Nearly every single card syngergizes with Twilight Shepherd. Any of the sacrificed artifacts can be returned to my hand with the angel's ability, evoke becomes absurd when the angel activates, CIP creatures play nicely with her, and wiping the board with Magus of the Disk tends to be rather one-sided when all my stuff comes back to me, including the Magus himself! But the star of the deck is Voyager Staff combined with Twilight Shepherd, which basically lets me pay 3 mana each turn to ensure that any permanent that goes to my graveyard that turn gets returned to my hand. That includes lands like Terramorphic Expanse and Flagstones of Trokair as well (hence the high number of basic lands to fetch). Mannequin and Momentary Blink both ensure that my angel is never rid of permanently, and Trinket Mage tutors for the Staff right when I need it, or for any other silver bullet artifact. The sideboard includes stuff like Relic of Progenitus, to hose even more strategies. Lack of artifact lands is due to anti-synergy with the Magus. It's a fun deck with an insane amount of resiliance, as that angel is almost impossible to ever get rid of permanently, thanks to the massive amount of blink and recursion in the deck.

Mirrinus' Countersliver
Deck: Pauper UW Countersliver
Format: Extended Pauper

Creatures:
4 Azorius First-wing (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=97101)
4 Bant Sureblade (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=188975)
4 Deft Duelist (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=175121)
4 Ethercaste Knight (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=179542)
4 Esper Stormblade (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=188968)

Artifacts:
4 Fieldmist Borderpost (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=183005)

Enchantments:
4 Temporal Isolation (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=106654)

Instants:
4 Mana Tithe (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=122324)
4 Mana Leak (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=83160)
3 Remove Soul (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=129699)
3 Hindering Light (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=177598)

Lands:
4 Terramorphic Expanse (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=129881)
7 Island
7 Plains

Countersliver is a classic and effective Magic deck archetype that seeks to win by playing a few cheap, efficient threats to take the early game lead, then using permission and light removal elements to prevent the late-game from coming as you press your advantage. The archetype is named after the original version, which played Crystalline Sliver (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=5134) as its flagship creature.

Countersliver is a good example of an effective aggro-control deck. Your creatures are weaker than your opponent's best aggro creatures, and your removal and card advantage suite isn't nearly as strong as a dedicated control player's. What you do have, though, is tempo. You have superior early-game creatures to all but the best aggro decks, and you'll be shaving pieces off your opponent's life very quickly while trying to maintain your board advantage. Countersliver especially likes to prey on slower decks. Compare a Countersliver deck to a normal permission control deck. Against a mid-range deck, both are able to stall for several turns with their counterspells. However, while the permission deck is just buying time to play a big finisher, Countersliver will have a guy in play by turn 2, and attacking the opponent relentlessly while stalling for time. In other words, it has a tangible clock in play, which will likely win before the late-game hits.

Countersliver is normally weak against fast aggro decks with superior creatures. However, my personal build contains a few elements that help that matchup. First is the high number of first-striking creatures. Bant Sureblade and Deft Duelist make formidable blockers, easily dispatching lots of popular aggro creatures with high power but low toughness. Deft Duelist is also impossible to burn out of the way, making it a particularly impressive defender. Of course, both are also rather nasty on offense as well. Another nice card in the aggro matchup is Ethercaste Knight. 3 toughness means it can handle many early-game opposing creatures with ease, and it can lend power to my offense without ever having to tap. My favorite starting plays with this deck involve Esper Stormblade on turn 2, followed by Ethercaste Knight on turn 3 with one land up for Mana Tithe. I get to swing for 4 points of flying starting on turn 3, which can lead to a turn 7 win. With Ethercaste Knight blocking on the ground and a slew of countermagic and removal, I'm likely to win a damage race with just those two creatures.

The key to playing this deck is to not overextend with your creatures, and to keep mana open for counters available as often as possible, even if you aren't actually holding a counter. Exalted lets you finish games quickly without having to play many additional creatures. I prefer my fliers for attacking while keeping the first strikers back for defense to win the damage race against aggro. Of course, if you have a clear creature advantage, by all means attack en masse! Just be sure to have countermagic on hand in case they drop a big creature or removal spell. The good thing about this deck is that practically every single spell costs just 2 mana or less (I don't count the borderposts, as I usually pay their alternate cost), which means by turn 4 you can feasibly drop another threat and still have Mana Leak or Remove Soul ready. The deck desperately wants to hit UW by turn 2 (an opening hand that can't do this should be mulliganed), but with 4 Terramorphic Expanses and 4 Borderposts, that shouldn't be too hard to do, at least in my testing thus far.

If you want a sideboard, I would recommend trying out Steel of the Godhead (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=158749). Against decks light on removal but heavy on aggro, this card is a total beating that almost ensures victory in the damage race. Just keep in mind that you can't enchant your Azorius First-wings or Deft Duelists. In such a matchups where I'd want Steel of the Godhead, such as against aggressive red decks, I'd probably swap out the griffins for Vedalken Outlander (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=185141).

Graymare's Ella Enchanted
Creatures:
Dowsing Shaman (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=88968) X2
Gatherer of Graces (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=96877) X4
Gruul Guildmage (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=96837) X1
Flaring Flame-kin (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=111247) X4
Slith Firewalker (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=189222) X1
Spikeshot Goblin (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=46103) X1
Thran Golem (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=83202) X1
Yavimaya Enchantress (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=130515) X4
Verduran Enchantress (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=83320) X1

Enchantments:
Ancestral Mask (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=19634) X2
Beastmaster's Magemark (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=107689) X4
Crown of Flames (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=23074) X1
Exoskeletal Armor (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=29885) X1
Fencer's Magemark (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=29885) X4
Fists of Ironwood (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=83672) X1
Lightning Talons (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=176446) X2
Treetop Bracers (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=129777) X1
Uncontrollable Anger (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=134756) X1
Web (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=83994) X1

Instants:
Grab the Reins (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=49435) X1
Naturalize (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=174890) X2
Vitalize (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=14667) X1

Land:
Forest X10
Mountain X10
Skarrg, the Rage Pits (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=6088350) X2

Oh Lawd, my now seasoned Magic: The Gathering (tm) mind cries when it sees all of these X1's! As some people can guess, this isn't the most... stable of decks.

But, boy howdy, is it fun to play! The creatures it can manufacturer are always loaded with power. This is mostly from all of the synergy. My enchanted creatures make other enchanted creatures more powerful (and in the case of magemarks, give them extra abilities!).

Plus, it's fairly fast. Personal clicks can attest to its ability of bringing out big baddies in a relatively short amount of time.

However, I could always do with making it faster. In fact, this deck is in dire need of optimization, so I will acquiesce to your greater abilities playground if you would deign to help me. :smalltongue:

SoD's Naya DeckLittle Creatures:
Bloodbraid Elf (http://magiccards.info/arb/en/50.html)x1
Druid of the Anima (http://magiccards.info/ala/en/128.html)x2
Naya Hushblade (http://magiccards.info/arb/en/141.html)x3
Stun Sniper (http://magiccards.info/arb/en/100.html)x4
Wild Nacatl (http://magiccards.info/ala/en/152.html)x4 (1 foil)
Big creatures;
Hamletback Goliath (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/173.html)x1
Mossbridge Troll (http://magiccards.info/shm/en/123.html)x1 (1 foil)
Mycoid Shepherd (http://magiccards.info/arb/en/73.html)x1
Mycoloth (http://magiccards.info/ala/en/140.html)x3
Spearbreaker Behemoth (http://magiccards.info/ala/en/150.html)x1
Spellbreaker Behemoth (http://magiccards.info/arb/en/60.html)x
Vigor (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/240.html)x2
Wooly Thoctar (http://magiccards.info/card.php?card=Woolly%20Thoctar)x4
Artifacts:
Behemoth Sledge (http://magiccards.info/arb/en/65.html)x1
Mage Slayer (http://magiccards.info/arb/en/57.html)x2
Enchantements:
Happy Song (http://magiccards.info/arb/en/121.html)x1
Oblivion Ring (http://magiccards.info/ala/en/20.html)x1
Instants;
Path to Exile (http://magiccards.info/cfx/en/15.html)x2
Volcanic Fallout (http://magiccards.info/cfx/en/74.html)x1
Sorcer...Sorcery's? Sorceries? Sorceri? Sorceri, yeah. That sounds good. Sorceri:
None.
Planeswalkers:
Ajani Vengeant (http://magiccards.info/ala/en/154.html)x1
Lands:
Fire-Lit Thicket (http://magiccards.info/shm/en/271.html)x1
Forestx4
Jungle Shrine (http://magiccards.info/ala/en/226.html)x4
Mountainx4 (2 foil)
Naya Panorama (http://magiccards.info/ala/en/227.html)x1
Plainsx3
Wooded Bastion (http://magiccards.info/shm/en/281.html)x1
Vivid Crag (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/275.html)x2
Vivid Grove (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/277.html)x1

Fun Combinations; Double Vigor. Need I say more? Happy Song (Mayael's Aria) (at begining of upkeep, stuff, then win the game if you control creature with power 20 or greater) combined with Mossbridge Troll (tap a bunch of creatures, Mossbridge Troll gets +20/+20 til end of turn.
Mycoloth.
Another Mycoloth.
Spellbreaker Behemoth's to stop your big things from getting countered.
Spearbreaker Behemoth to stop them getting killed.
Vigor to make them tougher.
Hamletback Goliath+Mycoloth. I spawn more Saprolings. My Hamletback gets bigger.

I'm trying to work out what to remove for a Windbrisk Raptor (http://magiccards.info/shm/en/26.html) and a Rage Reflection (http://magiccards.info/shm/en/104.html). Any suggestions?
And secondly; Foily Noble Hierach.

Narkis' Dastardly Devour Deck[/COLOR]Creatures

4 X Tukatongue Thallid (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=184995)
4 X Sprouting Thrinax (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=174863)
2 X Hissing Iguanar (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=174873)
2 X Thorn-Thrash Viashino (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=175064)
4 X Mycoloth (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=174975)
2 X Predator Dragon (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=174968)

Other Spells

4 X Bone Splinters (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=174967)
4 X Fate Transfer (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=147411)
4 X Dragon Fodder (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=174936)
2 X Soul's Fire (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=174951)
4 X Morbid Bloom (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=179614)

Lands

4 X Savage Lands (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=174877)
2 X Veinfire Borderpost (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=189640)
2 X Firewild Borderpost (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=188974)
6 X Forest
6 X Mountain
4 X Swamp

Flame Master Axel's RBWLightning Reaver (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=180617) x2
Demigod of Revenge (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=153972) x2
Hellspark Elemental (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=174799) x3
Hell's Thunder (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=176455) x2
Termiante (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=176449) x3
Blightning (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=174917) x4
Tidehollow Sculler (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=175054) x2
Wall of Reverence (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=189874) x2
Path to Exile (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=179235) x3
Ajani Vengeant (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=174852)
Thought Hemorrhage (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=180596) x2
Bitminous Blast (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=185057)
Cerodon Yearling (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=180604) x2
Anathemancer (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=179538) x2
Mogg Fanatic (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=157925) x2
Sewn-Eye Drake (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=179594)
Demonspine Whip (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=180311)
Intimidation Bolt (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=179568)
Slave of Bolas (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=188971)
Volcanic Fallout (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=180274)
Pyroclasm (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=129801)
Guttural Respone (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=158773)

Veinfire Borderpost (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=189640)
Savage Lands (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=174877) x2
Jungle Shrine (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=175060) x2
Rupture Spire (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=142301) x2
Fetid Heath (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=153446)
Battlefield Forge (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=129479)
Swamp x4
Mountain x4
Plains x3

Shas'aia Toriia's Orzhov Control
Creatures (13)
4x Divinity of Pride (http://magiccards.info/eve/en/86.html)
4x Graveborn Muse (http://magiccards.info/10e/en/145.html)
2x Shimian Specter (http://magiccards.info/fut/en/76.html)
3x Oriss, Samite Guardian (http://magiccards.info/fut/en/28.html)

Artifacts (1)
1x Sword of Light and Shadow (http://magiccards.info/ds/en/149.html)

Instants (4)
4x Mortify (http://magiccards.info/fut/en/28.html)

Planeswalkers (2)
2x Liliana Vess (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/121.html)

Sorceries (16)
4x Demonic Tutor (http://magiccards.info/al/en/13.html)
4x Vindicate (http://magiccards.info/ap/en/126.html) (substituting in a couple Oblivion Rings (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/34.html)until I can afford a playset)
4x Gerrard's Verdict (http://magiccards.info/fnmp/en/82.html)
2x Wrath of God (http://magiccards.info/10e/en/61.html)
2x Damnation (http://magiccards.info/pc/en/85.html)

Land (24)
4x Godless Shrine (http://magiccards.info/gp/en/157.html)
4x Fetid Heath (http://magiccards.info/eve/en/176.html)
4x Caves of Koilos (http://magiccards.info/10e/en/350.html)
1x Shizo, Death's Storehouse (http://magiccards.info/chk/en/283.html)
1x Eiganjo Castle (http://magiccards.info/chk/en/275.html)
2x Orzhova, Church of Deals (http://magiccards.info/gp/en/162.html)
3x Flagstones of Trokair (http://magiccards.info/ts/en/272.html)
2x Forbidding Watchtower (http://magiccards.info/10e/en/352.html)
2x Swamp (http://magiccards.info/ala/en/238.html)
1x Plains (http://magiccards.info/ts/en/283.html)

To start off with this deck, you want to either strip their hand away with Gerrard's Veridct or search for something good with Demonic Tutor. Once you have Graveborn muse in play, just start accumalating card advantage. If they try to attack, prevent the damage with Oriss, or block with Forbidding Watchtower. Finish off the game with Liliana Vess or Divinity of Pride. Above all, though, don't be afraid to Wrath often. With 4 wrath effects and 6 tutors, you can always get more.

Lastly, there is a soft lock in this deck. See if you can find what it is. :smallamused:

MountainKing's UBR Elemental Shenanigans:

Creatures:
Supreme Exemplar (http://magiccards.info/mt/en/53.html) x2
Mulldrifter (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/76.html) x3
Mournwhelk (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/127.html) x3
Shriekmaw (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/139.html) x3
Spitebellows (http://magiccards.info/mt/en/105.html) x3
Inner-Flame Acolyte (http://magiccards.info/jvc/en/41.html) x3
Stingscourger (http://magiccards.info/pc/en/107.html) x3

Artifacts:
Proteus Staff (http://magiccards.info/mi/en/230.html) x3
Cauldron of Souls (http://magiccards.info/shm/en/248.html) x3
Cloudstone Curio (http://magiccards.info/rav/en/257.html) x3
Armillary Sphere (http://magiccards.info/cfx/en/134.html) x3

Sorceries:
Heat Shimmer (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/175.html) x2

Instants:
Peel from Reality (http://magiccards.info/rav/en/61.html) x2
Turn to Mist (http://magiccards.info/shm/en/155.html) x4

Lands:
Basic Swamp x6
Basic Mountain x7
Basic Island x7

Sideboard (aka the Experiment Pile):
Thrumming Stone (http://magiccards.info/cs/en/142.html)
Coalition Relic (http://magiccards.info/fut/en/161.html)
Cruel Ultimatum (http://magiccards.info/ala/en/164.html) x3
River Kelpie (http://magiccards.info/shm/en/49.html) x2
Heat Shimmer
Mana Echoes (http://magiccards.info/on/en/218.html) x2
Dawn of the Dead (http://magiccards.info/tr/en/59.html)
Tar Fiend (http://magiccards.info/ala/en/89.html) x2
Footbottom Feast (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/115.html) x3

The basic premise of the deck is to use the triggered come into play or leaves play effects on creatures, repeatedly, in order to bring about an effective soft lock on the game through denial. This is achieved through taking two keywords abilities (Evoke and Persist)... and breaking them soundly over your knee.

The core of the deck is the interaction between Cauldron of Souls (the only card in the deck that gives creatures Persist) and Elemental creatures with Evoke alternative casting costs. In response to the Evoke's triggered effect, you tap Cauldron of Souls to give the Evoked creature Persist. It leaves play, then returns to play, causing its triggered come into play ability to go on the stack a second time, for no additional mana cost.

Example: If I evoke a Mulldrifter for 2U, when it comes into play, I draw two cards. Since I paid the Evoke cost, the triggered effect goes on the stack. I give it Persist via Cauldron of Souls, and when it comes into play a second time, I draw two more cards.

Example 2: The interaction between Spitebellows and Cauldron of Souls is fundamentally the same, except that the creature's ability triggers when it leaves play, rather than comes into play. However, when Persist brings Spitebellows back into play, it has a zero toughness courtesy of its -1/-1 counter from Persist, sending it cheerfully back to the graveyard a second time, allowing for either 12 damage to be done to one creature, or 6 damage to be done to two separate creatures.

The typical play of the deck leaves it feeling like its ramping a little slowly. Turns 1-5, you'll probably only have played an Armillary Sphere, Cloudstone Curio, Cauldron of Souls, and land. ***NOTE*** This deck likes its mana, and digging up lands with the Armillary Sphere is crucial.

Once turn 6 hits, however, you'll be causing some serious hurt, having surprisingly rapid, effective tools at your disposal during your turn. Mournwhelk empties your opponent's hand, Shriekmaw and Spitebellows tear down your opponent's creatures, while Stingscourger stalls out their creatures. Supreme Exemplar is the only huge beater in the deck, though clearing the opposing board, casting a Spitebellows (not Evoking), and then giving it +2/+0 and Haste via Inner-Flame Acolyte (if not +4/+0) can give you a suitable beater as well. Otherwise, your damage comes from lightweight, evasive creatures like Shriekmaw and Mulldrifter.

This deck isn't especially meant to play against terribly competitive players, but it *can* perform against moderately fast decks. The difference is that it moves slightly slower, and loses out on creatures, because instead of holding on to your Evoke creatures, you'll be playing them in to deal with threats on board. I've got a list of cards that I personally intend to use to tinker with the deck even further, but I'll leave the deck *as is* for the purpose of posting it. I want people to be able to tinker with it, and the deck *does* work well in its current form.

The deck also has a number of specific weaknesses, none of which should be terribly worried about. It's meant to be a fun deck... for you. It won't be fun for them. :smallbiggrin:

Please include lots of info on how to play the deck so that people who don't understand your brilliance can bask in its true glory.
Also, it should be noted that this list was maintained by tgva and Johnny Blade before Shas. He doesn't think he could have done it on his own. Except, ya' know, for the part where he did.

Squark

2011-03-10, 02:28 PM

Past topics since the first post takes up too much space:
Magic: the Gathering (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84019)
Magic: the Gathering II - Planeswalkers in the Playground - (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=111185)
Magic: the Gathering III - These Planes Are Made For Walkin' (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119615)
Magic: the Gathering IV: "Burn, Mana, Burn" as they used to say (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125812)
Magic: the Gathering V: Ophidians on a Plane (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7739504#post7739504)
Magic: the Gathering VI: This Thread Dies to Removal (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=149503)
Magic: The Gathering VII: Thopter? I Barely Knew'er! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=162760)
Magic: The Gathering VII: We Should have a Mythic By Now (http://http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9816150#post9816150)

List of MtG-related websites put together by Johnny Blades and others:
The official site. (http://www.wizards.com/magic/) From here you can reach:
The page for Magic Online (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Digital/MagicOnline.aspx), if you want to give it a try. Note that, while you have to pay/trade for cards, there are bots who give them away for free. I don't have any experience with this, but there are people posting in this thread that do.
The DCI (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dci/welcome), for organized play.
Gatherer (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Default.aspx), WotC's card search.

magiccards.info (http://magiccards.info/), another place to waste lots of time browsing through cards. It doesn't have the user ratings and comments of Gatherer, but lists the prices of several online vendors and, surprisingly, has more card images. The interface is also better in my opinion.

MTGSalvation (http://www.mtgsalvation.com/). That place has a lot of stuff, including a wiki, a huge forum, and many articles of varying quality. They also spoil all the cards of the next set well in advance, so this is where we'll usually get future cards from.

StarCityGames (http://www.starcitygames.com/) - they make you pay for much of their newer content, but what you can get for free is certainly good enough.

Elder Dragon Highlander (http://www.dragonhighlander.net/rules.php), the official page. Very...Spartan design, but that means functionality. Always up to date and it has a forum about this popular variant multiplayer format as well.

Le Bestiaire (http://draft.bestiaire.org/), an online draft simulator. It gives you some pretty odd ratings sometimes, but at least there is actual feedback.

Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com/), a program for...a lot of things, including collection management and online play. Supports more TCGs than just Magic. There's a freeware version available.

TC Decks (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/), where you can see which decks have tournament success. The decks are essentially named by the people who play them, and if you're looking for, say, Legacy decks, you'll soon find out that not all tournaments are really at Pro Tour level, but this is still an invaluable site for anyone who wants to keep up with the tournament scene.

Magic: the Gathering Source Forums (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/), which is great for people looking into legacy.

The Mana Drain (http://www.themanadrain.com/), more forums, this time for people looking into Vintage.

Tapped Out (http://www.tappedout.net/), a deck building and critique community. Build any number of decks and put them up for review/critique/comment/display. Or, keep them private. They also have pretty graphic representations of your mana curve, colour costs and colour generation.

http://www.highlandermagic.info/ t\The site for German Rules highlander. It's a 100-card singleton format, but the rules are rather different from EDH. They're more in line with the normal rules, and the banlist is made with a more competitive mindset in mind.

http://deckstats.net/ Calculates mana curve, compares color spread to manabase colors, calculates prices for the deck as well as some other functions. It can handle MWSDeck files and can also save decks pasted into it in the format.
GITP Magicgroup play-by-post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=181087)

GITP Magic: The Gathering Freeform RP (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=190054)

Also, for those who don't get the title, Black lotus (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=600) is one of the Power Nine, a collection of the nine most powerful (and expensive) rares from the original set. We apolgize for the terrible pun. Well, I don't. But others do.

Also, please let us know if you want something in the first post added, edited or removed.

Lateral

2011-03-10, 03:29 PM

I pun at the groan, and I voted for it. :smallsigh::smalleek:

Drascin

2011-03-10, 03:32 PM

I would like to publicly apologize for being the mastermind behind the current thread title :smalltongue:.

Brother Oni

2011-03-10, 04:18 PM

I've taken the liberty of quoting this from another thread that should be merged into this one.

Hundred-Talon Strike (http://magiccards.info/bok/en/8.html), can you splice it multiple times with the same spell?

No, as you can only cast a spell once, thus you only have the one opportunity to splice any spell onto it. There's also a specific rule preventing you from splicing any one card onto the same spell more than once.

You can splice multiple Hundred-Talon Strikes in your hand, but you can't splice the same Hundred-Talon Strike multiple times onto the same spell.

Lateral

2011-03-10, 05:18 PM

I need help with another deck, sorry. My U/W control is getting a bit large; I need to take some stuff out. The deck is based around using gratuitous unblockableness and removal enchantments, finishing with some manner of combo. The deck stands as:

Steel of the Godhead x4
Phantom Warrior x1
Arrest x2
O-Ring x1
Sovereigns of Lost Alara x1
Thistledown Liege x1
Trip Noose x1
Voyager Drake x1
Zealous Guardians x1
Infiltration Lens x1
Whiplash Trap x1
Pitfall Trap x1
Crib Swap x2
Divination x2
Kor Hookmaster x1
Peek x1
Redirect x1
Venser's Journal x1
Venser, the Sojourner x1
Curse of Chains x1
Pacifism x1
Prison Term x1
Solitary Confinement x1 (combos with Honden of Seeing Winds)
Repel Intruders x1
Careful Consideration x1
Living Tsunami x1
Blinding Mage x1
Telepathy x1
Honden of Seeing Winds x1
Journey to Nowhere x3
Memnite x1
Unstable Mutation x1
Whispersilk Cloak x2
Train of Thought x1
Sleep x1
Thistledown Duo x1
Eldrazi Conscription x1 (combos with Sovereigns; this gets about 25% of my wins alone)
Volition Reins x1
Sunblast Angel x1
Celestial Colonnade x1
Path to Exile x1
Aether Figment x1
Time Warp x1 (this gets about 20% of wins on the turn I play it, and I almost never lose after playing it)
Sigil of the Empty Throne x1
Armored Ascension x1
Thoughtweft Gambit x1

...Now that I look at the list, I can think of a few I can just eliminate right away. Any comments?

Foeofthelance

2011-03-10, 07:57 PM

Lateral

2011-03-10, 09:01 PM

Always will depend on the deck's colors.

Foeofthelance

2011-03-10, 09:06 PM

Always will depend on the deck's colors.

I was considering in an over all meta sense - which one is more desirable/useful. Which would you rather pull in Limited? Which would be more useful in Constructed?

Silviya

2011-03-10, 09:06 PM

Theoretical debate time!

Which is more powerful, a land that taps for 2 paired colored mana (For example, WU or BG like the guild lands) or one that taps for a pair of single colored mana, such as RR?

Assuming the single color double mana land had the same drawbacks as the guild lands (comes into play tapped and you have to return a land to your hand when you play it), I'd say the two color lands are more powerful. Of course, the single colored lands would be a bit better in monocolored decks, though not by much. Even in a monocolored deck, you don't really need that much mana of your color unless you've got things that need lots of colored mana (Primalcrux, for example). And the two color guilds lands would be much more useful then the single colored lands in a multicolored deck. So yeah, I think the guild lands are better.

Also, I've got a funny story from when my dad first started playing Magic. He started way back in the days of Alpha, Beta, and Unlimited. So, one day, he went into a gaming shop to get some roleplaying books. He hadn't been playing Magic that long at that point. He saw some cards on display that were being sold for $15 per card. He looked at what the card was, and he thought that yeah, it's a good card, but who would ever want pay $15 for that one card? So he got the game books and left the store, thinking about how ridiculous it was that someone might ever pay $15 for one card.
That card was Black Lotus. My dad says he really wishes he had bought some now.

Craftworld

2011-03-10, 10:30 PM

It does all depend on the color(s) of the deck in question. I play a mono green deck so there I would want a land that gives me two green mana. Though I also have a blue white aggro deck that I would want a land that gives me a white and a blue mana. I am not sure but do cards like Glacial Fortress count here or lands that I don't know about?

the humanity

2011-03-10, 11:06 PM

since nobody commented, I'm going to throw this out there. please comment, i've got most of it worked out but it's not quite there yet.
General:
Ulasht, the Hate Seed

Elves:
Arbor Elf
Llanowar Elves
Elvish Visionary
Nissa's Chosen
Priest of Titania
Radha, Heir to Keld
Tajuru Preserver
Viridian Zealot
Wirewood Herald
Civic Wayfinder
Elvish Archdruid
Elvish Harbinger
Ezuri, Renegade Leader
Fyndhorn Elder
Wood Elves
Argothian Elder
Immaculate Magistrate
Lys Alana Huntmaster
Masked Admirers
Nullmage Shepherd
Oracle of Mul Daya
Wirewood Channeler
Ambush Commander

Not Elves:
Magus of the Vineyard
Sakura-Tribe Elder
Borderland Ranger
Yavimaya Dryad
Anger
Acidic Slime
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Kumano, Master Yamabushi
Mycoloth
Hellkite Charger
Avenger of Zendikar

Planeswalkers:
Nissa Revane
Sarkhan Vol

Artifacts:
Orochi Hatchery
Horizon Spellbomb
Spine of Ish Sah

Enchantments:
Ashling's Prerogative
Sylvan Library
Aggravated Assault
Abundance
Bear Umbra
Breath of Fury
Mana Echoes
Asceticism
Doubling Season
In the Web of War
Perilous Forays

Instants/Sorceries:
Final Fortune
Nature's Spiral
Rampant Growth
Sylvan Scrying
Genesis Wave
Creeping Corrosion
Grab the Reins
Harmonize
Relentless Assault
Savage Beating
World at War
Disaster Radius

Lands:
Fire-Lit Thicket
Gaea's Cradle
Gruul Turf
Karplusan Forest
Kher Keep
Mosswort Bridge
Raging Ravine
Rootbound Crag
Spinerock Knoll
Stomping Ground
Vesuva
Wirewood Lodge
18 Forest
7 Mountain

Lhurgyof

2011-03-10, 11:12 PM

Okay, I would like to add a deck up to the first post. :)

The Evil Black Deck of Infernal Doom!

Lands
Swamp (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=875) x22
Mystifying Maze (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=204978) x1
(I should have more, but haven't come across any, this has saved me a few times).

Creatures
Royal Assassin (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=205233) x1
Phylactery Lich (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=205034) x4
Reassembling Skeleton (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=205066) x4
Ornithopter (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=206331) x4
Cadaver Imp (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=193515) x2
Child of Night (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=205122) x2

Artifacts
Sorcerer's Strongbox (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=205069) x2
Crystal Ball (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=205049) x3
Demon's Horn (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=206326) x4

Other Spells
Dark Tutelage (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=204979) x2
Necrotic Plague (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=207104) x4
Unholy Strength (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=205237) x2
Memoricide (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=215103) x1
Sadistic Sacrament (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=195632) x4
Corrupt (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=207106) x1
Inquisition of Kozilek (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=193428) x1

Okay, so there's a few different things going on here.
First and foremost is the lich. He will kick ass and take names, plus his "phylacteries" are flavorful- crystal balls and demon's horns.
Next, is a little combo involving the Reassembling Skeletons and Necrotic Plagues to lock down the field creature wise. And when you feel like dropping a lich, just let the Plague die.
Another big thing here is the crystal ball/dark tutelage combo. Stack low-CC cards, ornithopters, or lands on top with nice goodies below to help mana ramp/get you your good stuff.
And finally, use sadistic sacrament in the most sadistic of ways (taking out all the lands that produce one type of mana in a multicolor deck, perhaps... Tom still hates me for it. :smalltongue:)

Other than that, it's a nice, fun, and easy to put together type 2 black deck. It doesn't stand up to vampires, but hey, who wants to play the same deck as everyone else? :)

Edit:

since nobody commented, I'm going to throw this out there. please comment, i've got most of it worked out but it's not quite there yet.
General:
Ulasht, the Hate Seed

Elves:
Arbor Elf
Llanowar Elves
Elvish Visionary
Nissa's Chosen
Priest of Titania
Radha, Heir to Keld
Tajuru Preserver
Viridian Zealot
Wirewood Herald
Civic Wayfinder
Elvish Archdruid
Elvish Harbinger
Ezuri, Renegade Leader
Fyndhorn Elder
Wood Elves
Argothian Elder
Immaculate Magistrate
Lys Alana Huntmaster
Masked Admirers
Nullmage Shepherd
Oracle of Mul Daya
Wirewood Channeler
Ambush Commander

Not Elves:
Magus of the Vineyard
Sakura-Tribe Elder
Borderland Ranger
Yavimaya Dryad
Anger
Acidic Slime
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Kumano, Master Yamabushi
Mycoloth
Hellkite Charger
Avenger of Zendikar

Planeswalkers:
Nissa Revane
Sarkhan Vol

Artifacts:
Orochi Hatchery
Horizon Spellbomb
Spine of Ish Sah

Enchantments:
Ashling's Prerogative
Sylvan Library
Aggravated Assault
Abundance
Bear Umbra
Breath of Fury
Mana Echoes
Asceticism
Doubling Season
In the Web of War
Perilous Forays

Instants/Sorceries:
Final Fortune
Nature's Spiral
Rampant Growth
Sylvan Scrying
Genesis Wave
Creeping Corrosion
Grab the Reins
Harmonize
Relentless Assault
Savage Beating
World at War
Disaster Radius

Lands:
Fire-Lit Thicket
Gaea's Cradle
Gruul Turf
Karplusan Forest
Kher Keep
Mosswort Bridge
Raging Ravine
Rootbound Crag
Spinerock Knoll
Stomping Ground
Vesuva
Wirewood Lodge
18 Forest
7 Mountain

Hmm, I'm not the best person to go to about EDH... and I know it could be a pain, but can you link the more important cards?

Other than that, it seems all good. Being able to just plop out Ulash is damned nice. And being a nuisance is what elves do best. Add in a Joraga Warcaller?

TheArsenal

2011-03-11, 03:05 AM

Anybody heard the news that EDH is changed into commander? And getting official WOTC support? Like cards made specificaly for it? Or oversised commander cards? They say its not going to be in charge of it. Just profit from it.

Suedars

2011-03-11, 03:23 AM

Theoretical debate time!

Which is more powerful, a land that taps for 2 paired colored mana (For example, WU or BG like the guild lands) or one that taps for a pair of single colored mana, such as RR?

Either would be absolutely ridiculous if it's tapping for two colored mana (assuming it's not something like the Shadowmoor filter lands where you have to pay a mana in so only net one mana). The one that provides two different colors would generally be better though, since it fixes.

tgva8889

2011-03-11, 03:29 AM

So, news (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/arcana/665).

Does this mean we'll get Gideon and Sorin in M12 instead of Ajani and Liliana? Not sure yet, but this seems to suggest that we may be witnessing a changing of the Planeswalker guard.

I am very interested to see what plans they have for Liliana. It seems a waste to make her a character and then toss her out...maybe we'll be seeing more of her in the next block?

Suedars

2011-03-11, 04:25 AM

My guess is that if they're moving Gideon and Sorin into the core, we'll probably be seeing them next block.

It's a little odd that they're getting rid of Liliana in the core but keeping Garruk, since those two were about as tied together as Jace and Chandra. I would have guessed that next block would give us new versions of Liliana and Garruk since they have unresolved business and they're the only of the Lorwyn walkers not to get new versions, but it's looking like that won't be the case.

tgva8889

2011-03-11, 04:34 AM

Well, another thing to consider is who would they replace Garruk with? He is the best example of a pure Green Planeswalker, because his only competition is Nissa and Nissa's the Elf Planeswalker, not really a Green one.

That said, I really do think they should give us something with Garruk or Liliana, now that they've spent time establishing the two and that they have some kind of relationship. Not that I'm not a fan of Sorin or Gideon, but they aren't that many sets back. That said, I would have more expected to see Elspeth Tirel than Gideon in a base set. I generally expect the base set Planeswalkers to have more basic setups, and Elspeth Tirel follows the general "+ ability, - ability, Ultimate" set up. Gideon is a different kind of Planeswalker.

This is not an official confirmation, as it is supposed to promote Duels 2012 as well, but still. It will be very interesting to see what having Gideon and Sorin in the format for another year will do. Gideon is a good Planeswalker, never dominating but always powerful.

Suedars

2011-03-11, 04:54 AM

It's unlikely, but we could get a new version of Gideon and/or Sorin.

Good point about Garruk not being replacable. Green really is lacking in Planeswalkers, though I'm betting we get a new one in Action (probably Melira, but maybe some new Phyrexian character).

I wonder if this means that the next duel deck will be Sorin v. Gideon. As far as I know despite being in enemy colors they never really fought, and fought alongside each other against the Eldrazi. Maybe it has something to do with the next block?

TheArsenal

2011-03-11, 05:01 AM

The Next duel deck is Anaji (New) Vs Nicolas Bolas. Thats what I read on thier site.

Suedars

2011-03-11, 05:06 AM

Right, I forgot about that one.

Also I realized Duels was referring to Duels of the Planeswalkers rather than Duel Decks, so ignore that bit of my post.

EDIT: Is it just me or does Gideon's face look rather brutish and dull in this wallpaper? Compare it (http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/daily/wallpapers/wp_2012planeswalkers_1280x960.jpg) to this (http://www.wizards.com/mtg/images/daily/wallpapers/WP_GideonJura_2560x1600.jpg)

Avaris

2011-03-11, 06:03 AM

Story I feel I've got to share...

Earlier this week I was playing in a draft. During deck construction one of the guys mentioned that he'd first picked a Decimator Web; something which I would have been dubious about doing dependent on what else was in the pack. We met in the last round, having both lost both previous matches (I felt my deck was good, but it was lacking in the late game bombs needed to actually finish games). For most of the game I had been beating him down with a couple of creatures with equipment, but I lost these to some top-decked removal when he was on only 2 life. Worse still, one of my guys was a Leonin Relic-warder; when it died he got his Decimator web back. The tide quickly began to turn.

He activates Decimator Web. I'm fine for life and poison, but only have a few turns left of cards in the library. My first draw is of little consequence, and on his turn he activates the web again. I draw and play Blisterstick Shaman, pinging him down to 1 life.

At this stage I count the cards left in my library; 7. On previous activations of the web I'd seen my main hope milled (Helkite Ignitor) but I have a think through my deck to see if there is anything I can do to win.

He activates the web again; I'm down to one card left in the library, which I am about to draw on my turn. My opponant obviously thinks its all over at this stage, but I look through my graveyard to see if my suspicions are correct.

Me: "I've won."
Opponant: "What? How?"
I point at the last card: "That's a Blisterstick Shaman. Unless you can do the 14 damage needed to kill me this turn, I win."

In other words, out of the last 14 cards in my deck the only 2 I was able to draw and play were both Blisterstick Shamans. Lucky or what?

Bucky

2011-03-11, 08:57 AM

Theoretical debate time!

Which is more powerful, a land that taps for 2 paired colored mana (For example, WU or BG like the guild lands) or one that taps for a pair of single colored mana, such as RR?

I would rather have RG than RR when:
*I want to pay a mono-green cost, and don't have enough other lands that make G
*I want to pay a gold cost containing RG

I would rather have RR than RG when:
*I want to pay a heavily red cost such as 1RRR and don't have enough other red.
*I want to pay an all-red cost, such as playing Elemenal Appeal without kicker
*I am paying some kind of scalable cost that only accepts red mana, like pumping a Fiery Hellhound.

The perks of an RR land are somewhat rarer than the perks of an RG land, because most mono-colored spells have mostly colorless costs. Actually, I think the 'RR is better in mono' argument isn't correct; mono-X typically has enough lands that produce X, while a two-color deck might struggle to find X-colored mana for spells that cost 2XX. Cryptic Command (1UUU) decks play extra filter-lands (e.g. Sunken Ruins) for that reason.

Psyren

2011-03-11, 09:02 AM

I was considering in an over all meta sense - which one is more desirable/useful. Which would you rather pull in Limited? Which would be more useful in Constructed?

In Limited that would depend on the environment, though any environment that includes dual-lands like that to begin with would likely have a multicolor focus, making them desirable.

Duos

2011-03-11, 12:11 PM

Gentlemen.

I need your help with a little something. You see, I was challenged to build a deck themed after one of the seven deadly sins for an event, and I chose pride.
Now, this isn't a super serious thing, but I did want the deck to be somewhat viable. I decided to do enchantments-they always said "pride" to me. I'd love some input to help decide which of these two builds works better, and then maybe some tips on how to improve upon it.

Here's list one:
G/W OpalEvening

Lands
4x Brushland
4x Savannah
4x Temple Garden
9x Plains
Creatures
3x Academy Rector
Instants
4x Enlightened Tutor
Sorceries
3x Essence Filter
3x Primeval Light
3x Replenish
Enchantments
3x Glorious Anthem
4x Ghostly Prison
1x Solitary Confinement
3x Oblivion ring
2x Parallax Wave
3x Opalescence
3x Enchanted Evening
3x Privilaged Posotion
1x True Conviction

And here's the second list:
U/W OpalEvening

Lands
4x Adakar Wastes
4x Tundra
4x Hallowed Fountain
9x Plains
Creatures
4x Aura Thief
3x Academy Rector
Instants
4x Enlightened Tutor
Sorceries
3x Replenish
Enchantments
3x Glorious Anthem
2x Propaganda
4x Ghostly Prison
1x Aura of Silence
3x Oblivion ring
2x Parallax Wave
3x Opalescence
3x Enchanted Evening
3x Privilaged Posotion
1x Future Sight

I figured you guys would like a challenge. Whichever one is better gets tinkered with and brought to this event.

Androgeus

2011-03-11, 01:09 PM

The Next duel deck is Anaji (New) Vs Nicolas Bolas. Thats what I read on thier site.

Technically the next duel deck is Knights vs. Dragons, but yhea Ajani Vs. Bolas is the next planeswalker duel deck

Squark

2011-03-11, 02:12 PM

The reason the Ravnica Bounce Lands are useful is precisely because they provide two colors of mana- They're run to make it easier to fix mana in pauper decks and slow formats like EDH.

Suedars

2011-03-11, 02:31 PM

They also provide card advantage since you're getting two mana out of a single land, which is excellent in formats like EDH where the tempo hit isn't as big a deal.

IthilanorStPete

2011-03-11, 02:34 PM

And in Ravnica block Limited, the card advantage helped allow decks to play less land, and thus more spells.

The-Mage-King

2011-03-11, 02:44 PM

The Next duel deck is Anaji (New) Vs Nicolas Bolas. Thats what I read on thier site.

WANT.

Sorry. I never managed to get a Bolas during the Alara block.

I'll probably be getting two of those when they hit stores...

TheArsenal

2011-03-11, 02:50 PM

WANT.

Sorry. I never managed to get a Bolas during the Alara block.

I'll probably be getting two of those when they hit stores...

Wouldnt it Suck If It turned out to be the Creature Version? Love the Creature. Its a GREAT creature. But the planeswalker is.....Just a game ender. Its less of a support card and more of a finisher. Its First ability is just more than devastating. The second is a 6 mana spell. The Final is not a exact Kill Kill Kill, but more of a bullet to the knees and elbows leaving the head for you to decapitate.

Suedars

2011-03-11, 02:58 PM

It's also 8 mana spread across three colors. For one less mana you could cast a Cruel Ultimatum and get overall a stronger effect.

TheArsenal

2011-03-11, 03:02 PM

It's also 8 mana spread across three colors. For one less mana you could cast a Cruel Ultimatum and get overall a stronger effect.

But its SO much Cooler!

Plus The Sacrificing is Very important. Sure the opponent may be devasted for the next three turns but if he has all he needs on the battlefield then your screwed no matter how much life and cards you have.

The Extinguisher

2011-03-11, 03:09 PM

It's also 8 mana spread across three colors. For one less mana you could cast a Cruel Ultimatum and get overall a stronger effect.

Honestly, when I was running 5-colour Planeswalker Justice League of the Multiverse, I'd did much better with Nicol Bolas than I would with Cruel Ultimatum.

Lateral

2011-03-11, 03:16 PM

Beelzebub1111

2011-03-11, 03:16 PM

So I just built a deck out of stuff lying around in my spares box, tell me what you think:

From Up Here

Flying Men x1
Zephyr Sprite x4
Sage Owl x4
Courier's Capule x2
Deprive x1
Eel Umbra x2
Guard Gomazoa x1
Kathari Screecher x4
Thornwind Faeries x1
Crookclaw Transmuter x2
Wind Drake x4
Fatestitcher x2
Gaseous Form x1
Cancel x4
Snapping Drake x1
Gravitational Shift x4
Vigilant Drake x1
Faerie Swarm x1
Island x20

Mr._Blinky

2011-03-11, 04:34 PM

It's also 8 mana spread across three colors. For one less mana you could cast a Cruel Ultimatum and get overall a stronger effect.

Yes but, A) Cruel Ultimatum is a one-time effect, Bolas is a PW and so can keep being used, and B) Bolas may be 1 more cmc, but he has 4 colored mana symbols and Ultimatum has 7.

Suedars

2011-03-11, 05:08 PM

But its SO much Cooler!

Plus The Sacrificing is Very important. Sure the opponent may be devasted for the next three turns but if he has all he needs on the battlefield then your screwed no matter how much life and cards you have.

Between recurring a creature and drawing three cards you should have plenty of gas to stabilize (and even get ahead after). Edicting your opponent and gaining 5 gives you the time you need to do that stabilization. Casting Bolas onto a board you're way behind on will often just result in you stealing a guy, which will trade for another one of their guys when they attack and kill him on the next turn. And if you're ahead, Cruel Ultimatum is immediately backbreaking, whereas Bolas needs a couple turns to get going.

This is somewhat moot though, since if you're way behind by the time you're at 7/8 mana against any halfway decent agro deck you should have been dead three turns ago. It's incredibly rare to be behind when you're Ultimatum/Bolasing and still be alive. Both cards are absolutely horrid against agro, and are more aimed at devastating midrange decks that look to grind their opponent out. The 8-for-1 of Cruel Ultimatum is generally better in that role.

Honestly, when I was running 5-colour Planeswalker Justice League of the Multiverse, I'd did much better with Nicol Bolas than I would with Cruel Ultimatum.

That's because Planeswalkers have synergy with other Planeswalkers. If you're dropping enough of them that your opponent can't kill them all they get utterly ridiculous.

TheArsenal

2011-03-11, 05:37 PM

Between recurring a creature and drawing three cards you should have plenty of gas to stabilize (and even get ahead after). Edicting your opponent and gaining 5 gives you the time you need to do that stabilization. Casting Bolas onto a board you're way behind on will often just result in you stealing a guy, which will trade for another one of their guys when they attack and kill him on the next turn. And if you're ahead, Cruel Ultimatum is immediately backbreaking, whereas Bolas needs a couple turns to get going.

Well for one, One turn to be exact First activate its +3 ability then activate its -7 on the next turn. Two, dont be such a killjoy. Im just kidding around, cmon. Its just a game. Three: How will it be killed? If I steal a Wurm for example, it doesnt meen that another one will suddenly come on. And If your behind bolas supplies long term stability, in exchange for short term boost.

Edit: Yes agro is devestating. But it can fall apart if a strong creature is summoned or a wither of such.

Suedars

2011-03-11, 05:39 PM

Oh, by behind I thought you meant the opponent had several creatures on board staring you down, not just one. If it's just one Ultimatum does just fine there since they'll have to sac it, and you net +infinity cards.

TheArsenal

2011-03-11, 06:29 PM

If it's just one Ultimatum does just fine there since they'll have to sac it, and you net +infinity cards.

Could you explain on this bit. I just didnt get it. Plus ultimatum destroys only one creature anyway. So Steeling one as defense against another is as good as any defense.

Squark

2011-03-11, 06:46 PM

Well if it's just one the ultimatum will deal with it no problem. If it's multiple, though, you've still edicted them, gotten one of your own creatures back, and gained enough life to stabilize for a turn, which is what you're doing with bolas planeswalker.

In other words, if casting Cruel Ultimatum doesn't stabilize you, Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker won't either.

Bucky

2011-03-11, 06:55 PM

Suedars

2011-03-11, 10:33 PM

Creatureless decks haven't really existed for some time though, and if your opponent is pressuring you with a fully developed board of creatures you'll die long before you cast either Cruel Ultimatum or Nicol Bolas,

Lhurgyof

2011-03-11, 10:44 PM

Any comments? Anything?

Seems like too many x1's and x2's. You can't really reliably get what you need like that.

Bucky

2011-03-12, 12:24 AM

Suedars

2011-03-12, 02:18 AM

Planeswalker decks and Grave Titan respectively

What Planeswalker decks? The main Planeswalker deck currently is CawGo which is centered around Stoneforge Mystic and Squadron Hawk. And I really don't see how Grave Titan is an argument for creatureless decks given that it's a creature.

Squark

2011-03-12, 08:54 AM

I think he's arguing that with regular bolas, you can steel the titan and block the tokens, but with Ultimatum, they'll just sac a token.

The Extinguisher

2011-03-12, 01:31 PM

TheArsenal

2011-03-12, 02:08 PM

And? Is it possible that they couldn't afford bolas? So some used Cruel ultimatum. Some used bolas. But at the end of the day, bolas is sooo much cooler. And maybe I'm playing the game wrong but that is all that matters to me. It's still good, and it's cool.

Suedars

2011-03-12, 02:18 PM

For most tournament players cost isn't an issue, and I think Ultimatum was about the same price or more expensive anyways. And our discussion of the two isn't because we're concerned about people playing the game wrong, but is because we derive enjoyment from debating the merits of cards.

Foeofthelance

2011-03-12, 05:27 PM

Bolas is great and all, but Cruel Ultimatum is better.

When they were both legal in standard, 5 colour control chose the Ultimatum. Yes, the five colour deck chose the card with seven coloured mana symbols in it. It's just that good.

Personally, I would think cost wouldn't be such a matter at that point, whether playing a Grixis deck or a Five Color Control deck. When a card needs seven or eight mana, you've had plenty of time to get your board established, so color fixing shouldn't be much of a problem. Especially once one factors in search lands, dual lands, tricolor lands, and rainbow lands. I can see it being an issue on turn three or four, when building the board is important and you don't want to screw yourself out of plays, but 7 and 8 is rather late game to be worrying.

Tao the Ninja

2011-03-12, 05:30 PM

Does anyone know if it's true that Gideon and Sorin are taking over as the main black and white walkers? Based on http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/arcana/665 this appears to be the case.

Squark

2011-03-12, 06:58 PM

No, we don't know, but frankly, I think people are reading way too much into that picture.

Suedars

2011-03-12, 07:04 PM

The release says that it applies to M12, which seems pretty clear to me.

Squark

2011-03-12, 07:28 PM

Oh...

You know, that really ticks me off, frankly. I like Liliana and Ajani, and, anyway, as far as power goes, Chandra is more in need of replacing than Ajani.

Suedars

2011-03-12, 07:31 PM

Removing Ajani is a little bit strange with the Ajani vs. Bolas duel deck coming up.

Tao the Ninja

2011-03-12, 07:35 PM

Well, Ajani did shift into red (Ajani Vengeant) and the 5 mains are supposed to be "paragons of their color." Now I want a UB Liliana.
EDIT: And who would replace Chandra? Koth?

Suedars

2011-03-12, 08:15 PM

Ajani Vengeant is actually pre-Ajani Goldmane in terms of story, so if they were to use Ajani in upcoming blocks he'd probably be fully W. Plus Garruk isn't exactly a paragon of G anymore ever since his run-in with Liliana.

BladeofOblivion

2011-03-12, 08:16 PM

Well, Ajani did shift into red (Ajani Vengeant) and the 5 mains are supposed to be "paragons of their color." Now I want a UB Liliana.
EDIT: And who would replace Chandra? Koth?

Y no Elspeth tho?

Seriously, though. Elspeth, unlike Gideon, is actually involved in the current block.

Squark

2011-03-12, 08:27 PM

Well, since it's a core set, there's no need for block continuity.

Gideon, Ajani, and Elspeth are all paragons of what white can be, Jace is blue with touches of white and black influences, Liliana is pure black (Sorrin, having not read anything with him, is harder to place), Chandra is pure, pure red while Koth has touches of white in his character. Garruk was purely green (before being corrupted), while Nissa has a strong black element to her character.

Suedars

2011-03-12, 08:32 PM

My guess is that Sorin and Gideon will be involved in the next block in order to cement their place as core Planeswalkers.

flabort

2011-03-12, 09:53 PM

Hi. I've only played one game of MtG, and it was with a deck borrowed from a friend, against another of his own decks. (sure, I won, but that's not important).

What I want to know, is, what is the local policy on making a 100% Non WotC deck?
I may be using the wrong terms, but I mean only "Basic land" cards and cards that I make up myself...

I do intend to use an entirely different backing to emphasize "This is not for serious play", I haven't made or found any art for any of the cards, and some of the cards don't even have names yet, but I think most of the cards are balanced, mechanically. If I could get help (renaming or simply naming some, fixing the power level or cost of others, & with flavor), it would be nice?
Red/Blue wall based deck (I assume U is used to represent Blue mana?)
Creatures
4x Bookshelves
UUU
Creature - wall
when this permanent is the target of a spell or ability, draw a card from your library and add it to your hand.
0/3
4x Kindling
1 R
Creature - wall
Sacrifice This permanent and deal 1 damage to all creatures
0/1
3x Hot Tar Over the Gate
RRR
Creature - Wall
If Hot Tar Over the Gate blocks an attack, you may sacrifice this permenant to deal damage to the attacking creature or player equal to Hot Tar Over the Gate's toughness.
0/6
4x <unnamed>
RR U
Creature - Wall
Has Toughness equal to the number of walls in play
(Tap) put a 0/-1 counter on this permanent to deal 3 damage to target creature or player
0/*
4x Ditch Digger
3 UU
Creature
(UU, tap) Gain control of the target land until your next upkeep
2/1
4x Over seer
3 UU
Creature
(U, tap) Untap Target permanent
Watch out for the ones that don't use their whips. They don't need them to hurt you.
2/1
3x Lava Ape
2 RR
Creature
Has Damage/toughness equal to non-mountain lands in opponent's control
Has mountain-walking
*/*
4x <unnamed>
2 R
creature
(Tap) Sacrifice any permanent in your control to put a +1/+1 counter on this permanent
1/1
4x Tower Guard
3 R U
Has damage/toughness equal to the number of walls in play
(Tap) If a wall blocks an attack, deal damage to the attacker equal to Tower Guards damage
*/*
Enchantments
4x Hide Your Strength
1 U
Enchant Creature
Enchanted creature gets -1/+1
Sacrifice enchanted creature to search your library for any card. You don't have to reveal the card. Shuffle your library and return the card to the top of the library.
Don't let the "Old Man" act fool you, he has a few nasty tricks.
1x <unnamed>
3 RR
Enchant Creature - wall
This enchantment must be attached to a creature with the wall type when played.
Put a +0/+1 counter on the enchanted creature whenever it blocks an attack.
you may sacrifice the enchanted creature to deal damage to two target creatures or players equal to the number of +0/+1 counters it has.
Sorcery
1x Good Cop, Bad Cop
1 B
Target Player must reveal two cards in his hand, or take two damage.
Artifacts
4x Krystal Prism
3
Artifact
(3, Tap) Get 2 mana of any color
Land
6x Island
6x Mountain
2x Liquid Krystal
Tap to gain 1 colorless mana and add 1 charge counter to Liquid Krystal
Remove 3 charge counters and sacrifice Liquid Krystal to gain 3 blue mana, plus 1 colorless mana for every two remaining charge counters
2x Fiery Krystal
Tap to gain 1 colorless mana and add 1 charge counter to fiery Krystal
Remove 3 charge counters and sacrifice Liquid Krystal to gain 3 red mana, plus 1 colorless mana for every two remaining charge counters
4x Krystal Mine
Tap to add one work counter
Tap and remove two work counters to gain 1 mana of any color

As you can see, with 15 walls, plus an enchantment that only affects a wall, plus a creature that gains power based off of walls in play, it's focussed on putting out as many walls as possible, and actually doing damage with them.

Individually, I think the cards are balanced. Together, maybe not. And If anyone put them in other decks, they could probably REALLY break them.

Lava Ape has Mountain walking, but if you're playing against an all red deck, it has no attack or toughness, and can't be played! Obviously at it's highest potential against a mixed deck with red components.

My second unnamed creature gains power as you sacrifice cards, and may be better as a black card. It may also be underpriced.

bookshelves may be way too powerful, what with being able to draw a card almost every time the opponent tries to get rid of it.

Kindling... what can I say? 0/1 cards are rare, to say the least. It's ability may be overpowered, as it can take out every creature with a toughness of 1, but I'd assume as written it would affect your own cards?

Help tidying/fixing these cards or their names would be nice.

Krystal cards are part of... well, I'm going to build a second deck like this (Non WotC) eventually, it will be focused on mana manipulation, of all colors.

Suedars

2011-03-12, 10:00 PM

People sometimes homebrew sets for fun, but it's exceptionally rare for people to play with cards they made. Plus the balance on a lot of these is way off. Bookshelves is ridiculous because of cards like Shuko (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=74415) for instance.

flabort

2011-03-12, 10:11 PM

I said I'd only played once. And quite frankly, I was playing a Necro deck versus an elf deck, having nothing to do with red or blue.
Yes, though, I do see your point.
Any way to "fix" it? "...All players draw a card from their libraries..." instead would really, uh... hasten the game, but I don't think that would be ballanced either. Thoughts?

IthilanorStPete

2011-03-12, 10:14 PM

...Don't try it. If you've only ever played one game of MtG, don't even start trying to design and play with your own cards.

flabort

2011-03-12, 10:23 PM

Foeofthelance

2011-03-12, 10:56 PM

Alright. I was impressed, I tried to make my own deck, my own way, which was only natural for me, since as a consistently broke teen, I couldn't afford cards.
But, It does make sense, not to try. After all, I'm no expert.

Hmmm, if you want some idea of what goes into card making, try the Great Designer Search articles on magicthegathering.com.

EDIT: Articles are here: http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/133

There are a ton of things that get considered. Power levels, abilities, mana cost, rarity, functionality, how "easy" it is for players to play with it, how well they can understand it, how it interacts with other cards...

We're not saying don't homebrew, just check that out to see what goes into it. You can also use Gatherer, the Magic database to get some idea of what other card are.

Beelzebub1111

2011-03-13, 08:44 AM

Okay, with all this planeswalker talk, I have to ask. Does anyone here get super pumped at the possibility of a Karn planeswalker card? or even an updated version of the card? The flavor text on one card pretty much said that he was alive...I'm a big fan of the artifacts cycle and the older fluff, so the prospect makes me giddy.

memnarch

2011-03-13, 12:11 PM

Tao the Ninja

2011-03-13, 01:07 PM

Quick rules question: If I use Prototype Portal on a card with multikicker, can I pay the cost when I put out the token? Multikicker says cast, so I don't think so, but I'm not positive.

IthilanorStPete

2011-03-13, 01:17 PM

Quick rules question: If I use Prototype Portal on a card with multikicker, can I pay the cost when I put out the token? Multikicker says cast, so I don't think so, but I'm not positive.

No. Prototype Portal just puts a token onto the battlefield, and you have to cast it to pay (multi)kicker.

Tao the Ninja

2011-03-13, 01:23 PM

That's what I thought. Thanks. Now I'm bummed.

IthilanorStPete

2011-03-13, 01:27 PM

Trying to turbo out a bunch of mana with Everflowing Chalices, I take it?

Beelzebub1111

2011-03-13, 02:26 PM

Karn IS alive; he's just trapped near the center of Mirrodin and trapped in his own mind at the same time by the infection.
Hmmm...this whole invasion couldn't be about retrieving Xantcha's Heartstone, could it? One of the last relics of old phyrexia?

TheArsenal

2011-03-13, 02:26 PM

Alright. I was impressed, I tried to make my own deck, my own way, which was only natural for me, since as a consistently broke teen, I couldn't afford cards.
But, It does make sense, not to try. After all, I'm no expert.

Print real cards. Buy 60 random cards, protectors and insert the prints into the protectors. Boom, instant cards

memnarch

2011-03-13, 02:59 PM

Hmmm...this whole invasion couldn't be about retrieving Xantcha's Heartstone, could it? One of the last relics of old phyrexia?

No, they treat him as the new Father of Machines. The trap in his mind is the oil talking to him and basically telling him to accept that phyrexia is the way to go.

Brother Oni

2011-03-13, 07:47 PM

Print real cards. Buy 60 random cards, protectors and insert the prints into the protectors. Boom, instant cards

Just don't try selling them or playing in any sort of semi formal tournament with them. :smalltongue:

@flabort:
If this is just for casual play, I see no difference between this or using old style proxy cards (usually a land or common with the name or the rare card written in ink on top) and most players shouldn't have an issue with it.

With the advent of the internet, printing off cards is much easier and helps for streamlined play, so go for it.

flabort

2011-03-13, 09:54 PM

Foeofthelance

2011-03-13, 09:59 PM

This "proxy card" idea... This is the internet age, so I could look them up, but... let's just say I need what that is explained to me.

Proxies are basically what you were going to do, without all the hassle of making things up. There's a magic the gathering database called "gatherer". It shows a card image of the most recent printing each card, as well as rules for the card. The card image is a little smaller than an actual card is, so the more financially challenged of us will copy the image to Paint or wherever, and print out copies. They aren't tournament legal though.

The-Mage-King

2011-03-13, 10:02 PM

Well, once I got them fleshed out enough, I was going to print them on cardstock, with my own back art...
I don't quite understand what Arsenal is trying to sa-- oh. Use the real cards to disguise copies from the website? :smallamused: Clever, but no thank you. I'm doing this because I'm broke :smallredface:.

This "proxy card" idea... This is the internet age, so I could look them up, but... let's just say I need what that is explained to me.

Pst. A bit of advice for a newcomer. If you have $20, go buy a deck builder's toolkit. It will be useful.

Anyway, proxies... They're usually for when you have a great deck idea, but you want to test run it before you buy expensive singles. You build your deck, leaving room for the cards you don't have, sleeve it, and you put basic lands in that have a small piece of paper in front of them saying what card it is supposed to be, how much it costs to play it, and what it does.

Quite simple, really.

flabort

2011-03-13, 10:31 PM

The-Mage-King

2011-03-13, 10:36 PM

Oh. OK. Thanks.
That's an... interesting Idea. I may try it with, uh...
Oh, I wish, I wish, I wish I had a dollar, So I could buy some sleeves and land. :smallmad:

Oh, well. You've all been really helpful. Thanks.

'course, if you want to get a hang on the rules, there is a MTGitP group (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=181087)... Building a deck via gatherer is a fine way to learn the rules...

Mirrinus

2011-03-14, 12:05 AM

Magic's 2011 Fall block has been announced: Innistrad

Check out the announcement on the Arcana. (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/arcana/666)

Most interesting points: Liliana Vess seems to be taking center stage, and Richard Garfield is on the design team.

BladeofOblivion

2011-03-14, 12:45 AM

Suedars

2011-03-14, 01:37 AM

Looking at that art I'm wondering if this is the Victorian graveyard set that Future Sight hinted at.

Squark

2011-03-14, 06:39 AM

Hmm... The dead guy behind her looks like a vampire...

not really surprising, I suppose.

So, street wraith, yixid jailer, and tomb stalker likely to be reprinted? AWESOME.

I like the looks of this set already.

Androgeus

2011-03-14, 07:16 AM

Brother Oni

2011-03-14, 07:59 AM

Building a deck via gatherer is a fine way to learn the rules...

Just stay with cards from the more recent expansions.

Grabbing random cards from older sets because they have 'cool' abilities is a recipe for a headache - phasing, banding, anything that messes about with layers and licids are definite no-go areas for new players.

Penguinizer

2011-03-14, 08:46 AM

'course, if you want to get a hang on the rules, there is a MTGitP group (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=181087)... Building a deck via gatherer is a fine way to learn the rules...

Whoa, that's new. I didn't know about that one.

We should put that in the OP as well as the PBP tournament thread someone started.

The-Mage-King

2011-03-14, 08:52 AM

Whoa, that's new. I didn't know about that one.

We should put that in the OP as well as the PBP tournament thread someone started.

There's also a free form RP.

Squark

2011-03-14, 01:12 PM

Get me the links, and I'll ad that one to the second post.

Foeofthelance

2011-03-14, 07:51 PM

So, I'm thinking of building a blue counterspell deck, whose only sole means of attack is Storm Crow. Yes, its a griefer deck, and only plans on seeing play when a griefer is called for. (My gaming group has different generations of gamers - some of us have access to older and more powerful cards, others just started playing with Zendikar. This tends to lead to the occasional bully deck seeing play. Somehow or other it ended up becoming my responsibility to remind people that anything can lose.)

The question then, is what kind of counter spells would be the most effective? Cheap but narrow spells, like Dispel, Envelope, and Remove Soul? Counter or Pay X counters such as Circular Logic and Power Sink? Cantrip counters that will replace themselves? Or some mix of the three that's aiming for a balance?

Tao the Ninja

2011-03-14, 08:10 PM

I support this plan. I dont really play outside of standard and limited, though. I'd say that mix sounds better, but there are probably more helpful people out there.

PS: Run Scornful Egotist.

The-Mage-King

2011-03-14, 08:13 PM

Get me the links, and I'll ad that one to the second post.

MTGitP (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=181087)

MTGitP RP (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=190054)

Enjoy.

Beelzebub1111

2011-03-14, 08:29 PM

From Up Here

Flying Men x1
Zephyr Sprite x4
Sage Owl x4
Courier's Capule x2
Deprive x1
Eel Umbra x2
Guard Gomazoa x1
Kathari Screecher x4
Thornwind Faeries x1
Crookclaw Transmuter x2
Wind Drake x4
Fatestitcher x2
Gaseous Form x1
Cancel x4
Snapping Drake x1
Gravitational Shift x4
Vigilant Drake x1
Faerie Swarm x1
Island x20

Hate to self bump but would anyone care to take a look?

After this one is done, I think I'll do a mono-white legendary samurai deck. then I'll have a mono-deck of every color (Cat Warriors, Zombies, and Burn are my other three)

Mr._Blinky

2011-03-14, 10:28 PM

I was wondering what everyone thought of the new Commander (EDH) decks that are coming out? The first two cards to have been spoiled can be found here (http://www.gatheringmagic.com/magic-the-gathering-commander/) (or you know, probably in a lot of places).

I for one am pretty excited. While the decks themselves are probably going to be pretty lackluster (WotC precons usually are), I really like that they're making cards for them specifically designed for EDH, especially if Karador, Ghost Chieftain is any indication of what we can expect from the other Generals.

Tokuhara

2011-03-14, 11:19 PM

Hello playgrounders. I just recieved Venser and I really want to use him in a deck. Problem is I wouldnt know how to start. If anyone has a deck build including him as a "centerpiece," I'd appreciate it

Gauntlet

2011-03-14, 11:29 PM

Venser is very effective in W/U Allies, since he gives you more EtB triggers and lets you swing through for the win.

BladeofOblivion

2011-03-14, 11:49 PM

Venser is very effective in W/U Allies, since he gives you more EtB triggers and lets you swing through for the win.

For extra absurdity, use with Jwari Shapeshifter!

He's also pretty good for dodging Doom Blades.

Mr._Blinky

2011-03-15, 12:43 AM

He's also pretty good for dodging Doom Blades.

Unfortunately no, Planeswalker abilities are activated at Sorcery speed, so you'd have to have exiled the guy before the Doom Blade was cast. Of course, then they'd just DB in response, sooo...

BladeofOblivion

2011-03-15, 12:51 AM

Unfortunately no, Planeswalker abilities are activated at Sorcery speed, so you'd have to have exiled the guy before the Doom Blade was cast. Of course, then they'd just DB in response, sooo...

Too bad. Well, we'll always have Aphotic Wisps. *Twitch*

Androgeus

2011-03-15, 05:34 AM

Lhurgyof

2011-03-15, 08:18 AM

A couple more cards where shown off at PAX east [linkage (http://www.mananation.com/pax-east-panel-previews-commander/)]
I really like Nin and she'll probably be obtained for my runeflare/cerebral vortex deck.

The blue/red one is pretty meh.

Tokuhara

2011-03-15, 09:49 AM

Venser is very effective in W/U Allies, since he gives you more EtB triggers and lets you swing through for the win.

So UW allies? nobody suggested that to me for Venser... Everyone said Control and only control.

So if somebody has a deck list for this UW control + Venser, plz post it. I'll use ur username in the title next tournament once I get the cards.

Silviya

2011-03-15, 04:12 PM

So UW allies? nobody suggested that to me for Venser... Everyone said Control and only control.

So if somebody has a deck list for this UW control + Venser, plz post it. I'll use ur username in the title next tournament once I get the cards.
I'm actually working on a UW control deck with Venser right now, though I haven't finished it yet, so I can't post a deck list. Some cards you might want to consider: Wall of Omens (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=193545) to blink with Venser to draw cards, Kor Cartographer (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Kor Cartographer) to blink to search for planes, Mnemonic Wall (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mnemonic Wall) to return instants and sorceries to your hand, Sunblast Angel (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sunblast Angel) to repeatedly kill tapped creatures, Aether Adept (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Aether Adept) to bounce things, Stoneforge Mystic (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Stoneforge Mystic) to tutor for equipments, andAugury Owl (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=208225) to scry. Then there's Journey to Nowhere (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=222761). Blinking it would let the exiled creature return to play, but when Journey to Nowhere returns to play at the end of your turn you can exile a different, more powerful creature.
If you're not planning on using this deck in Standard, there's also the original Venser (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Venser, Shaper Savant), which you can blink with Planeswalker Venser to bounce things.
There's also Contagion Engine (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=212252), which can be blinked with Venser for lots of -1/-1 counters, and it can proliferate the counters on Venser. This might not work so well if you don't have anything else to proliferate though, and sense you only have one Venser it would probably be a bad idea to put it in the deck if he's the only thing it will work with.

I'm sure there are other cards that I missed, but those are all the ones I could think of off the top of my head. If I get the deck finished anytime soon I could post it, though it's going to be Vintage deck, so if you're playing Standard of Extended it wouldn't help much.

A couple more cards where shown off at PAX east [linkage (http://www.mananation.com/pax-east-panel-previews-commander/)]
I really like Nin and she'll probably be obtained for my runeflare/cerebral vortex deck.

Nin has an interesting ability, but I wish she was 2/2 or 1/3 and cost 1UR instead of being 1/1 and costing UR. The one point of toughness makes her really vulnerable to pinging creatures like Prodigal Pyromancer. There are lots of interesting uses for her, but she's just a bit too easy to kill without some way to protect her. Maybe cast Clout of the Dominus on her.

Mr._Blinky

2011-03-15, 04:24 PM

The blue/red one is pretty meh.

Really? Because I'm pretty sure she's actually really powerful. You don't use it to ping your opponent's creatures, you ping your own stuff and get some pretty massive card advantage off of it; it basically means it has "3UR, sacrifice a 1/1, tap: Draw 3 cards". That's a pretty good deal, especially when you can do it variably, since losing a piece of cannon fodder to draw, say, 7 cards isn't too hard to do in EDH and is pretty worth it.

Squark

2011-03-16, 06:41 AM

And she's also useful in Draw pain decks, as we've already described.

Androgeus

2011-03-16, 08:46 AM

She'd be good in a stuffy doll deck, fire balling your opponent and drawing you some cards. She is pretty much a combo piece though.

Gauntlet

2011-03-16, 08:58 AM

Nin looks like the perfect complement to Swans of Bryn Argoll. XUR, T: draw twice X cards.

BladeofOblivion

2011-03-16, 09:16 AM

Nin looks like the perfect complement to Swans of Bryn Argoll. XUR, T: draw twice X cards.

The only downside to this is that R/W/B Decks are perhaps the least loved concept by Wizards, with a total of 2 R/W/B Cards. (Numot the Devastator and Lightning Angel.)

IthilanorStPete

2011-03-16, 09:18 AM

The only downside to this is that R/W/B Decks are perhaps the least loved concept by Wizards, with a total of 2 R/W/B Cards. (Numot the Devastator and Lightning Angel.)

U is used to abbreviate blue; B is used for black.

Mr._Blinky

2011-03-16, 09:48 AM

The only downside to this is that R/W/B Decks are perhaps the least loved concept by Wizards, with a total of 2 R/W/B Cards. (Numot the Devastator and Lightning Angel.)

Well, the good news though is that the Commander decks are all wedge colored, meaning two allies and their shared enemy. They'll also each have their corresponding Planar Chaos dragon as a General choice, which means that one of these five decks is going to be R/W/U and will have Numot in it (and I wouldn't be too surprised if Lightning Angel found it's way in, being rather iconic).

Androgeus

2011-03-16, 11:09 AM

The only downside to this is that R/W/B Decks are perhaps the least loved concept by Wizards, with a total of 2 R/W/B Cards. (Numot the Devastator and Lightning Angel.)

All of the wedges only have two cards, a Planar Chaos Dragon and a card from Apocalypse, except for B/W/G which also has Doran.
They just haven't done a wedge block yet.

Squark

2011-03-16, 01:13 PM

TheArsenal

2011-03-16, 02:01 PM

Anybody Tried using Coalition Relic with energy Chamber and Profiltration? It rocks.

The-Mage-King

2011-03-16, 02:05 PM

Anybody Tried using Coalition Relic with energy Chamber and Profiltration? It rocks.

Everflowing Chalice, Energy Chamber, and proliferate.

"I'm sorry, I can hear you over how I flat cast Emrakul on turn 4."

Beelzebub1111

2011-03-16, 02:11 PM

I actually have an Ana (UGB) deck that I'm working on, just need a few cards to make it work. Let's just say that Ana Sanctuary is a BEAST

The Extinguisher

2011-03-16, 04:27 PM

Probably because we aren't sure what the wedges actually do.

(The following list is drawn from identities the three colors share, not the few existing wedge cards)
UBG seems to be a card drawing combination (all three colors being the main card draw color)
WRB seems to be a board control combination (all three colors have a strong removal element)
GWB would probably be a recursion color (all three colors have some form of recursion- White has a smattering of creature revival, Black is the reanimation color, while Green specializing in recycling cards)
WUR... I don't know.
RGB... Creatures, maybe?

So if two combinations don't have a clear identity, it's not surpising we haven't seen a wedge block.

If we go off of the Alara example, each wedge is defined by the colours it's lacking.
WRB is missing U and G. You're missing natural growth. So you're getting something post-apocalyptic, a brutal and chaotic society ruled by the power.
URG is missing W and B. So it's missing order, and structure. It's unbridled, chaotic and anarchic growth, that is still in someways self-consistent. Pretty much evolution in action.
GBU is missing W and R, so you're missing the order and impulse. You get a growth, but it's not explosive, it's directed, and inward and cyclical. It's like a hive-mind and mad scientist.
RWU is missing G and B. It's missing life and death as forces in the world. It's a world of art and a society and you get some actual non-combat displays of red. Also, awesome art.
BGW is missing R and U. It's missing chaos and logic and passion. It's a world of no growth. Nothing changes, or changes very little. It's eternal and always.

Man, I want to make this set.

BladeofOblivion

2011-03-16, 04:30 PM

U is used to abbreviate blue; B is used for black.

Gah! I knew that, I just had a moment of Stupidity. I pretty much only say it correctly when I'm talking about both at the same time. E.G. U/B, but not R/W/B.

EDIT: R/W/U

Also, is it wrong that I refer to Numot the Devastator as "American Dragon, Nu Mot, Helping to destroy all lands since 1945?"

If we go off of the Alara example, each wedge is defined by the colours it's lacking.
WRB is missing U and G. You're missing natural growth. So you're getting something post-apocalyptic, a brutal and chaotic society ruled by the power.
URG is missing W and B. So it's missing order, and structure. It's unbridled, chaotic and anarchic growth, that is still in someways self-consistent. Pretty much evolution in action.
GBU is missing W and R, so you're missing the order and impulse. You get a growth, but it's not explosive, it's directed, and inward and cyclical. It's like a hive-mind and mad scientist.
RWU is missing G and B. It's missing life and death as forces in the world. It's a world of art and a society and you get some actual non-combat displays of red. Also, awesome art.
BGW is missing R and U. It's missing chaos and logic and passion. It's a world of no growth. Nothing changes, or changes very little. It's eternal and always.

Man, I want to make this set.

Magic Set Editor is a wonderful thing, no?

Suedars

2011-03-16, 04:53 PM

Also, is it wrong that I refer to Numot the Devastator as "American Dragon, Nu Mot, Helping to destroy all lands since 1945?"

I'd wager that over half of Numot EDH decks are AMERICA, BLANK YEAH! decks featuring stupidly over the top spells and the biggest explosions possible.

BladeofOblivion

2011-03-16, 04:57 PM

I'd wager that over half of Numot EDH decks are AMERICA, BLANK YEAH! decks featuring stupidly over the top spells and the biggest explosions possible.

I know its not a particularly clever catch, but whatever gets a laugh, eh?

(Note to self: Make Numot EDH with Eternal Dominion included just for the 'Epic' Quality.)

tgva8889

2011-03-16, 05:20 PM

I'd wager that over half of Numot EDH decks are AMERICA, BLANK YEAH! decks featuring stupidly over the top spells and the biggest explosions possible.

The only other cool thing you can do in those colors is do some Wild Research (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=23056).

Silviya

2011-03-16, 05:21 PM

If we go off of the Alara example, each wedge is defined by the colours it's lacking.
WRB is missing U and G. You're missing natural growth. So you're getting something post-apocalyptic, a brutal and chaotic society ruled by the power.
URG is missing W and B. So it's missing order, and structure. It's unbridled, chaotic and anarchic growth, that is still in someways self-consistent. Pretty much evolution in action.
GBU is missing W and R, so you're missing the order and impulse. You get a growth, but it's not explosive, it's directed, and inward and cyclical. It's like a hive-mind and mad scientist.
RWU is missing G and B. It's missing life and death as forces in the world. It's a world of art and a society and you get some actual non-combat displays of red. Also, awesome art.
BGW is missing R and U. It's missing chaos and logic and passion. It's a world of no growth. Nothing changes, or changes very little. It's eternal and always.

Man, I want to make this set.

Wow, that sounds awesome. I really, really hope that ends up being a set.

So, there's some speculation that Jace the Mind Sculptor may be in M12 instead of Jace Beleren. I'm not sure if this is based on any evidence that he he might be in the set or if people are just speculating, though. As far as I can tell, the pros and cons of Wizards doing this would be:

Pros:
--More people would buy M12.
--Jace's price would go down, so some people who previously couldn't afford him could.
--Quite a few of the people who hate Jace the Mind Sculptor seem to only hate him because they're bitter they didn't get one, so they may stop hating him if they get one in M12.
--The people who didn't get any Jaces would have a second chance at getting one.

Cons:
--Jace stays in standard for another year, and most tournament winning decks would still have to have four of him.
--The people who dislike Jace would be very annoyed.

Personally, I'm conflicted about whether or not I want Jace the Mind Sculptor to be in M12. On one hand, I don't have any, so it would give me a second chance to get one (He's also one of the three planeswalkers I don't have, and the only one I don't have that's really expensive). On the other hand, he'd stay in standard for another year, and I'd like to see what standard would look like when he rotates out.
I think that if they do have Jace the Mind Sculptor in M12, they shouldn't Gideon Jura. Maybe another Gideon card (one more suited for white weenie or something then control), but not Gideon Jura. They should also include more anti control/anti Jace cards to balance stuff out if Jace is going to stay in standard. More cards like Thrun, that can't be countered and can't be targeted by spells or abilities opponents control.

What do you all think? Do you want Jace 2.0 to be in M12, or would you rather he wasn't?

tgva8889

2011-03-16, 05:22 PM

There's both advantages and disadvantages to the price of Jace going down. Everyone who has invested in their Jace the Mind Sculptors will lose money for keeping them as they become more common.

There's also another problem, the biggest problem with printing Mind Sculptor in a base set. Complexity. The Base Sets are the sets for new players to learn how to play Magic and get into the game. Jace is not only a Planeswalker, the most complex card type in the game, but he has 4 abilities, 1 more than any other Planeswalker ever, making him arguably the most complex card in the game, at least printed in the last 4-5 years. The Base Set Planeswalkers are supposed to set the tone for what a Planeswalker is. If they put Jace, the Mind Sculptor in that slot, I fear the power level of future Planeswalkers.

Jace leaving Standard makes a larger group of people happy. And those who are unhappy with Jace leaving can be given a new toy in the next set, one that is less dominating and pricey while still powerful.

I'd wager that over half of Numot EDH decks are AMERICA, BLANK YEAH! decks featuring stupidly over the top spells and the biggest explosions possible.

The only other cool thing you can do in those colors is do some Wild Research (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=23056).

Silviya

2011-03-16, 05:38 PM

Yeah, I hadn't thought of the power level thing. Jace 2.0 is many times better than any of the core Planeswalkers. And the complexity issue, though I've heard speculation that Wizards is going to start putting more complex cards in the core sets.

And it would definitely suck for the people who had bought any Jaces. It seems like, if Wizards did reprint him in M12, there would some really happy people and some really annoyed people. I'm not sure which there would be more of.

Suedars

2011-03-16, 05:39 PM

The only other cool thing you can do in those colors is do some Wild Research (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=23056).

I had some success playing an aggressive Numot deck. WR has a bunch of nice agro tools, but really lacks the lasting card advantage that is necessary in EDH, which is where U comes in.

tgva8889

2011-03-16, 05:46 PM

I had some success playing an aggressive Numot deck. WR has a bunch of nice agro tools, but really lacks the lasting card advantage that is necessary in EDH, which is where U comes in.

Ah, yes. Double Strike + Numot = Sad Players who can't play spells?

BladeofOblivion

2011-03-16, 05:51 PM

Ah, yes. Double Strike + Numot = Sad Players who can't play spells?

To be fair, If your opponent actually lets Numot hit the field, they've probably lost anyway.

Foeofthelance

2011-03-16, 06:11 PM

There's both advantages and disadvantages to the price of Jace going down. Everyone who has invested in their Jace the Mind Sculptors will lose money for keeping them as they become more common.

Actually, if memory serves, one of the studies Wizards did showed that cards tended to increase when they see reprints in base sets. Its because the card is remaining in Standard which is one of the more common formats played at FLGS. The reprinted copy is generally worth less than the original, but the only thing that tends to drive card prices down is when they end up in a preconstructed deck.

Suedars

2011-03-16, 06:18 PM

Ah, yes. Double Strike + Numot = Sad Players who can't play spells?

No, I mainly used Numot to blow up utility lands or slow down the players who spend the first 5 turns casting nothing but ramp in exchange for not being immediately hated out of every game. I was playing Numot mainly because he's the only RUW general available. If there had been another I probably would have gone with that one.

The Extinguisher

2011-03-16, 08:06 PM

Actually, if memory serves, one of the studies Wizards did showed that cards tended to increase when they see reprints in base sets. Its because the card is remaining in Standard which is one of the more common formats played at FLGS. The reprinted copy is generally worth less than the original, but the only thing that tends to drive card prices down is when they end up in a preconstructed deck.

That won't happen. If Jace 2: Jace Harder was reprinted, he will go down in price. A core set is opened much much more than a second set, especially a second set suffering from third-set syndrome.

But it doesn't matter, because Jace 2: Electric Boogaloo won't be reprinted. We're not going to get new art and a new version of a planeswalker in the core set at the same time.

Lhurgyof

2011-03-16, 08:18 PM

Oh god how I hate Jace... :smallyuk:

It's not on the reserved list, so it's possible to get reprinted.

Squark

2011-03-16, 08:43 PM

Lhurgyof

2011-03-16, 08:51 PM

Jace can't be added to the reserve list, actually.

Thankfully. Because the reserved list really needs to go, as far as I'm concerned.

On Core set reprints- Being reprinted in a core set can boost or drop a cards value. It depends on a couple of factors, but this is the main one

Does the card now being in standard increase demand? If yes, than the price may rise or stay the same. Otherwise, then the price will drop (see Nantuko Shade and Leyline of the Void. Prior to M11, they were $7+ cards. Now, they sit in trade binders and dollar rare binders).

However, in the first few weeks following a prerelease for a new core set, you can expect some staple rares to go up simply because people found a reprinted card they like (This happened to Ajani, who temporarily jumped up a few bucks for the first few weeks after M11 was printed)

Oh yeah, I forgot about that.

Well I dunno, reprinting cards like Shahrazad, Black Lotus, and the Moxen may be a bad idea.

Suedars

2011-03-16, 10:30 PM

Jace can't be added to the reserve list, actually.

Thankfully. Because the reserved list really needs to go, as far as I'm concerned.

On Core set reprints- Being reprinted in a core set can boost or drop a cards value. It depends on a couple of factors, but this is the main one

Does the card now being in standard increase demand? If yes, than the price may rise or stay the same. Otherwise, then the price will drop (see Nantuko Shade and Leyline of the Void. Prior to M11, they were $7+ cards. Now, they sit in trade binders and dollar rare binders).

However, in the first few weeks following a prerelease for a new core set, you can expect some staple rares to go up simply because people found a reprinted card they like (This happened to Ajani, who temporarily jumped up a few bucks for the first few weeks after M11 was printed)

I'm not too familiar with Shade, but Leyline is a special case because it sees extensive play in other formats, but is pointless in Standard. Ordinarily the price bump of a card getting put in a Core Set is due to the surge of demand it gets from becoming played in Standard, but Leyline didn't get that so just dropped in price due to the increase in supply.

The Extinguisher

2011-03-16, 11:20 PM

Oh yeah, I forgot about that.

Well I dunno, reprinting cards like Shahrazad, Black Lotus, and the Moxen may be a bad idea.

Remember, just because they CAN do something, doesn't mean they WILL do it. Getting rid of the reserve list doesn't mean we'll see the power nine reprinted.

Ialdabaoth

2011-03-17, 12:08 AM

Remember, just because they CAN do something, doesn't mean they WILL do it. Getting rid of the reserve list doesn't mean we'll see the power nine reprinted.

I dunno; I think reprints of the Power Nine would help revitalize the format.

What would be awesome would be a "20th Anniversary Edition" that had the entire original Unlimited print-run.

tgva8889

2011-03-17, 12:15 AM

Reprints of the Power 9 would also sink the secondary market. The reason the Power 9 are valuable is because there's few of them. You add even 100 more Black Lotuses onto the market and the price drops several hundred dollars.

In what format was Nantuko Shade even played? :smallconfused: Yeah, it's sad for Leyline, but frankly reprinting cards like Leyline that are extremely powerful checks isn't a bad idea. Yes it's a cost, but Leylines weren't cards that were being often traded as far as I knew. It gives newer players an easier way to get into older formats, doesn't it?

Yeah, reprinting Jace probably wouldn't drop the price that much. It would still be a major Standard staple. And I still think that they are unlikely to print Jace, the Mind Sculptor in a base set. Jace Beleren is still good. He's simpler, unique, and a better basic representation of the character.

I am honestly a bit surprised about Gideon over Elspeth if that's the way they're going. I would have reprinted Elspeth Tirel, as she's a more typical Planeswalker. Gideon's pretty unique in his "0 Ultimate", and somewhat complex in that he makes himself into a creature. But hey, I'm not complaining that much, Gideon's a pretty cool guy. Does kinda make him cost less, but he's not dominating enough that I care about him being in the format longer. Plus hey, that means we'll get more story about him and I'd like to hear a bit more about this guy.

Suedars

2011-03-17, 01:10 AM

They have to be printing a new Gideon for M12. Gideon Jura just has too many rules confusions for new players to be in a core set.

tgva8889

2011-03-17, 01:25 AM

I see the following plans:

Nothing changes, they reprint the same 5 'walkers
They replace Liliana with Sorin
They replace Ajani with Elspeth
They replace Ajani with Gideon
2 and 3
2 and 4

They might make a new Gideon, sure, but I'd rather just see old Ajani at that point. I don't think Ajani's that bad, to be honest, we just don't have the right cards for him.

Suedars

2011-03-17, 01:47 AM

Ajani really only goes in one deck though, and you probably want a bit more flexibility out of core set Planeswalkers (though I guess that puts him solidly ahead of Sorin, Liliana, and Chandra who all go in 0 decks).

tgva8889

2011-03-17, 02:19 AM

Gideon isn't really that flexible. If you want a flexible Planeswalker that goes in all kinds of decks, Elspeth Tirel is one of the best options that follows traditional Planeswalker format. Elspeth, Knight-Errant would also be sweet but since she's non-traditional I think Tirel is more likely. They have no qualms about reprinting from the previous block (Day of Judgment) so why not Elspeth? She's certainly better than Ajani. Her Ultimate is even more Ultimate than his. She's the perfect choice. Come on! Dooo eeet Wizards! :smallbiggrin:

Also, they've kind of proven you wrong. Planeswalkers have always only done well in very specific decks. They don't work well just thrown into whatever deck, generally, unless you're playing Limited in which case most of them (Chandra Ablaze and Nissa Rivane generally excluded, I think) tend to be bombtacular.

Suedars

2011-03-17, 02:32 AM

TheArsenal

2011-03-17, 04:28 AM

Im Planning on Making a White/ Green (Possibly Blue) modular deck. Using Doubling season, and mycosyth latice. Thoughts?

Beelzebub1111

2011-03-17, 11:24 AM

tgva8889

2011-03-17, 02:06 PM

Ajani Goldmane needs to be in a deck with lots of low costing creatures, which is much more restrictive than most other planeswalkers. As far as I know he's only seen much play in token decks. Gideon has seen play in midrange, control, and agro control decks (ok, maybe calling Caw Go agro-control is a bit of a stretch). Garruk has worked well in both Jund as well as agro decks like tokens and elves. Ajani Vengeant was good in RUW control and Boat Brew's midrange agro. The old Elspeth was extremely powerful in midrange (Mythic), agro (tokens) and control (UW control). JtMS goes in just about every deck in every format that plays U.

All of those Planeswalkers have versatile abilities that are generally always powerful. Ajani Goldmane's abilities basically consist of "Set up his Ultimate" "Make your guys good" and "Win the game unless your opponent can chump until they can cast removal". Unless you've got lots of guys for him to be boosting he's not worth playing just for his + and ultimate, which makes him quite narrow.

The problem is more that White doesn't have great generic +1 abilities. Gaining life is awful. All the other abilities have been used by others or are too powerful (*coughElspethcough*). Also, there have to be bad planeswalkers to be good planeswalkers. We wouldn't know just how good Elspeth was without Ajani to compare to. And when Ajani's good, he's really good. It seems like around now would have been a good time for him, as he's the best with Proliferate. :smallfrown:

Penguinizer

2011-03-17, 02:34 PM

Ajani was good in the tokens/other white weenies style decks. It's his -1 that made him good in that deck. Everything else was just kinda secondary.

Suedars

2011-03-17, 03:47 PM

The problem is more that White doesn't have great generic +1 abilities. Gaining life is awful. All the other abilities have been used by others or are too powerful (*coughElspethcough*). Also, there have to be bad planeswalkers to be good planeswalkers. We wouldn't know just how good Elspeth was without Ajani to compare to. And when Ajani's good, he's really good. It seems like around now would have been a good time for him, as he's the best with Proliferate. :smallfrown:

The current Standard is quite terrible for him since sweepers are so prevalent. Though by the time M12 comes out (and especially once M11 rotates) that might have changed. There's not really much Proliferate that's good in the decks Ajani wants to go in. Clasp might be an ok option if the deck had other things to be proliferating too.

As far as W + abilities, Elspeth's make a guy probably would have been just fine if she hadn't also been able to pump them, and her pump probably would have been fine if she hadn't been able to make guys (or maybe dropping it to +2/+2 would have been better). W does lose a lot of potential planeswalker abilities to the sorcery speed restriction, since that axes a lot of defensive stuff, but there's got to be other things for W walkers to do. Granting something double strike might be a possibility. So would tapping a creature down.

You could also solve the problem by letting the W walker +2 instead of +1 if it's got a mediocre + ability, and make its ultimate actually something significant unlike Ajani's.

TheArsenal

2011-03-17, 04:09 PM

Anybody else notice the prospect of using doubling season with Prototype portal? Two Steel Hellkites for the Price of One.

tgva8889

2011-03-17, 04:13 PM

Yeah, well, Ajani was one of the first. They can't all be winners. Chandra's been losing since she's been printed. Also, his abilities do absolutely fit him as a character, at least as far as I know. I mean, Venser's abilities aren't that great, but given the character the abilities are perfect.

Double Strike would be way too good, especially right now. I don't think making a 1/1 is really a balanced +1 ability, but I guess it depends on what else the Planeswalker does. Yes, there are lots of other options. But I wouldn't really complain much for a good White Planeswalker at this point. White has more of them than even Blue. If blue wasn't batting 100%, White would be on top.

Tokuhara

2011-03-17, 05:51 PM

I've seen Ajani used in tendem with Venser in a UW Ally Control and it works pretty well.

As for Sorin/Leliana, I use them to great effect in a monoblack Vampire tribal. Leliana's +1 works as a great control aspect, especially when I have both Painful Quandry and Sangromancer out. Her -2 is a reusable Demonic Tutor, which lets me get Quandry or one of my rather nasty Vamps next turn. Her "ultimate" isn't amazing, but it's goot if I'm on the recieving end of a teeth kicking. Sorin's +2 isn't as good as Leliana's, but it does a decent job removing nasty little creatures I can't kill outright (such as Plague Stinger or Tine Shrike) without hurting my own critters. His second ability is a reusable Magister Sphinx without the painful cost for him. His final ability is a reusable Mindslaver. I can find a great many uses for controlling my opponent's turn, such as leaving them wide open for a swing from my Nighthawk or making them waste a Lightning Bolt on themselves.

As for Chandra Nalar and Chandra Ablaze, think of her as a Burn Deck's best friend. That's where I see her being of use. Heck, if I build monored burn, she's a shoe-in.

Overall, in the right circumstances, any planeswalker is good, depending on you are a complete tool or not and read the fine print of the card's effect...

Squark

2011-03-17, 08:06 PM

Tokuhara

2011-03-17, 08:27 PM

At the end of the day, Chandra Nalaar is really just a big burn spell. She comes into play, uses her -X ability to kill a creature, and maybe does something else if you didn't kill her off with that, and your opponent left her alone.

true. Nalaar isn't good, but like all other planeswalkers who have secondaries, Ablaze is deadly. Just like Jace. Baby jace is average, but Mindsculptor is rediculous

tgva8889

2011-03-17, 09:15 PM

Actually Chandra Ablaze is widely considered the worst Planeswalker ever printed, because she costs 6 and doesn't do anything by herself. Even with her Ultimate.

BladeofOblivion

2011-03-17, 09:24 PM

Actually Chandra Ablaze is widely considered the worst Planeswalker ever printed, because she costs 6 and doesn't do anything by herself. Even with her Ultimate.

She's pretty solid in an Izzet deck though, or similar. If you have a Lightning Bolt handy, or even a Shock, she can do some damage in combo with Training Grounds/Izzet Guildmage.

Tokuhara

2011-03-17, 09:36 PM

To change the gripe topic, here's a deck I'm working on. It can win turn 2, but usually 3-4. If anyone can come up with a worthwhile sideboard for it, i'd appreciate it:

Mono-Red Aggro

Artifacts:
Memnite x4
Ornithopter x4
Signal Pest x4
Mox Opal x3

Creatures:
Goblin Guide x4
Goblin Bushwacker x4
Goblin Wardriver x4
Hero of Oxxid Ridge x3

Spells:
Lightning Bolt x4
Kuldotha Rebirth x4

Lands:
Mountain x15
Contested Warzone x4
Smoldering Spire x3

memnarch

2011-03-17, 09:38 PM

Actually Chandra Ablaze is widely considered the worst Planeswalker ever printed, because she costs 6 and doesn't do anything by herself. Even with her Ultimate.

Well, technically Nisse, Tezzeret (both), and Venser would be the ones who need other cards to do anything at all. Ablaze has the "everyone discard hand, draw three" ability at least.

She is rather pricey mana-wise I'll grant you that.

Lhurgyof

2011-03-17, 09:44 PM

Oh snap, it seems my friend traded me a vindicate and it's actually like a 20-dollar card. I should probably tell him. :smalleek:

BladeofOblivion

2011-03-17, 09:52 PM

Oh snap, it seems my friend traded me a vindicate and it's actually like a 20-dollar card. I should probably tell him. :smalleek:

Better yet, don't. You will suffer a string of curses if you don't offer to trade it back... :smalltongue:

Lhurgyof

2011-03-17, 10:18 PM

Better yet, don't. You will suffer a string of curses if you don't offer to trade it back... :smalltongue:

Nah, he didn't have a use for it so he traded it off. I'm thinking of offering him some cards he needs.

The Extinguisher

2011-03-18, 01:35 AM

true. Nalaar isn't good, but like all other planeswalkers who have secondaries, Ablaze is deadly. Just like Jace. Baby jace is average, but Mindsculptor is rediculous

What? Nalaar isn't good? When did this happen. Nalaar is the single best planeswalker to open in core-set limited. Probably the best red card in M11. Easily in the top 5 for best card overall.

Just because she's not good in some formats, doesn't make her bad.

Suedars

2011-03-18, 02:50 AM

Tokuhara

2011-03-18, 10:45 AM

She's excellent in Limited, but then again so is just about every Planeswalker aside from Chandra Ablaze. I'd still probably rather have Garruk or Ajani in M11 (though some of that is probably due to Red being pitifully weak in that set). Generally when people are talking about how strong Planeswalkers are though, they mean Constructed (and more specifically Standard), because Planeswalkers are quite rare in limited (and you're almost never choosing between two of them).

Too True. If you talk to the guys I play with, they all say "Mind Sculptor is the Ultimate Planeswalker, and if you don't play with him, you are stupid," and I highly disagree. Among the #1 Pro decks, mind sculptor was actually locked in 3rd. KOTH was number 1.

Personally, I don't care. I love both versions of Chandra. Nalaar is more "passive" in comparison to Ablaze

Mirrinus

2011-03-18, 11:36 AM

Squark

2011-03-18, 01:06 PM

Old Elspeth did (before she rotated out), actually.

And Nissa and the tezzerets do in fact do something no matter what your board position; Nissa searches for a Chosen (or, if you've got all your chosen out of your deck, gives you 8+ life), Tezzeret the Seeker tutors artifacts, while Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas digs for artifacts. And even Venser can flicker lands to untap them- Not great, but it's more than Ablaze's +1 effect does if you don't have a hand or a red card.

memnarch

2011-03-18, 01:22 PM

Nisse, unless you're playing with the Chosen cards, that first ability does nothing. If you've got no elves, second ability does nothing. Basically, she needs elves to do anything.

Tezzerets, both need artifacts to do anything, just like Nisse and elves.

Ablaze, would very much like to be in a red deck, but at least there's an ability that doesn't require any other card to work. -2; everyone discard hand, draw three.

Squark

2011-03-18, 01:41 PM

No, they don't. Being limited to a few specific decks doesn't make a card bad. Being quite possibly unusable in a deck even if it's ideal for the PW makes it bad.

If you put Nissa in a deck with no elves/no chosen, or a Tezzeret in a deck with no artifacs, you're doing it wrong. So one of their abilities (Nissa's chosen summoning, Tezzeret's artifact searching) will always be useful. Doing somethnig like this is just as stupid as putting Jace the Mindsculptor in a deck with 0 blue mana sources.

Chandra Ablaze's +1 effect is useless if you don't have a red card in hand. And this is much more likely, given that Red decks are notorius about emptying their hand quickly, and you can easily end up drawing a land. And her -ability is situational at best. Chandra Ablaze is like the Chimney Imp of Planeswalkers. She makes you jump through hoops to make her playable, and even then, there are better cards to put in a deck.

Of course, the "Chimney Imp of Planeswalkers" is still miles away better than chimney imp.

Suedars

2011-03-18, 01:49 PM

Too True. If you talk to the guys I play with, they all say "Mind Sculptor is the Ultimate Planeswalker, and if you don't play with him, you are stupid," and I highly disagree. Among the #1 Pro decks, mind sculptor was actually locked in 3rd. KOTH was number 1.

Personally, I don't care. I love both versions of Chandra. Nalaar is more "passive" in comparison to Ablaze

What Pro decks are these? Koth currently only sees play in a tier 2 deck that's easily hated out.

tgva8889

2011-03-18, 04:58 PM

Jace 2.0 is good because he's played in practically every Standard competitive deck that runs blue. RUG, Caw-Blade, Tezzeret, UW control, UB control, you name it. In addition, he's played in pretty much every other format that he's available in. Can't say the same for Koth, or any other Planeswalker for that matter.

Well, UW and UB control are basically the same deck. But yes, that is true. Because Blue only ever does two things, and Jace does one of those things better than any card that's been printed in the last 4 years.

I seriously want there to be some kind of UW Proliferate Aggrothing deck with Ajani but I can't for the life of me see it ever working. Proliferate seems so good with Ajani. Damn not being any good aggro Proliferate cards.

Tokuhara

2011-03-19, 04:20 AM

What Pro decks are these? Koth currently only sees play in a tier 2 deck that's easily hated out.

He's been in a version of Valakut, Red Wins, and has even seen some play in Kuldotha. Last I remember, all three are Tier 1 decks.

Plus, that info is outdated. Seriously. Im running a Planeswalker-Free Kuldotha and am doing fine. Again, Mindsculptor is overrated

On a side note: Mindsculptor so far is not in 2011. Where is your god now, blue? Red ftw

Suedars

2011-03-19, 04:28 AM

Valakut is T1 but Koth doesn't really do anything in that deck and I've never really seen a list running him. RDW and KRed are the same deck right now, and they do run Koth, but they're pretty dubious even at Tier 2.

Contrast that to Jace who is run in the best deck in the format, RUG (another tier 1 deck), Tezzeret (a dubiously tier 1 deck) as well as numerous decks in every format where he's legal. He's one of two planeswalkers to see play in Vintage. Jace is so format dominating that until Squadron Hawk became popular people would run 2-3 Jace Beleren just to keep their opponents from casting their own Jace.

Squark

2011-03-19, 06:50 AM

Err...

Some people seriously ran the full 8 Jaces.

It depressed me to no end.

Androgeus

2011-03-19, 06:52 AM

On a side note: Mindsculptor so far is not in 2011. Where is your god now, blue? Red ftw

You mean m12? A set we don't have much information on? (other than that a version of Jace is almost definitely in). Although core sets are about keeping complexity down, so baby Jace is more likely to be in.

Mirrinus

2011-03-19, 01:15 PM

I like listening to MTG podcasts whenever I make long drives, and one of my favorites to listen to is Limited Resources, a very informative podcast that typically focuses on limited formats, but has the overall goal of improving every aspect of your deckbuilding and gameplay. A week or so ago, they had a great episode about the common misperceptions and faulty psychologies associated with game states and mechanics like counterspells, discard, milling, and looting. For those of you who haven't heard much discussion on this issue, I do urge you to check it out. I dare wager that for most people this will help make you a better player of the game.

You can listen to hit here:

http://www.mtgcast.com/?p=8325

TheArsenal

2011-03-19, 02:59 PM

I just decided to quit magic. I realized that I was spending so much money on just paper. The only reason I play the game is because I used to lack casual stuff to play. Now I have 5 Boardgames

The Next time I ever want to play Il just print out the cards I want.

Tokuhara

2011-03-20, 05:52 PM

Anybody got tips for Kuldotha?

Bucky

2011-03-20, 08:16 PM

Anybody got tips for Kuldotha?

Forgemaster or Rebirth?

Foeofthelance

2011-03-20, 11:30 PM

So this weekend I traded a Mind Slaver for a pre-release Emrakul, the Aeons Torn. The kid seemed pretty excited, because apparently he had an artifact creature that would tap for four mana and return an artifact from the graveyard to play. So with Mind Slaver all he would need is 8 mana and he'd have total control!

Later, I was flipping through my rare binder at home, and came across Scarecrone, which reads:

"4, Tap: Return target artifact creature from your graveyard to the battlefield."

Looking through Gatherer the only two cards that come close to doing what we describes are Bringer of the White Dawn, which costs 9 to cast and returns the artifact during the upkeep phase, and Protomatter Powder, which requires 4W and sacrifices itself, meaning its a not a recurring combo.

Should I feel bad that the kid is screwed on his combo, or simply take it as the cautionary tale to check my own cards first?

IthilanorStPete

2011-03-20, 11:33 PM

He very well may could have just misread Scarecrone. Incidentally, other ways of doing a Slaver-lock are with Academy Ruins to keep putting it on top of your deck, or with Goblin Welder and having a bunch of cheap artifacts around.

Suedars

2011-03-21, 12:27 AM

There's a few others like Eternal Witness+Repeatable Bounce/Blink.

BladeofOblivion

2011-03-21, 12:28 AM

There's a few others like Eternal Witness+Repeatable Bounce/Blink.

My favorite combo?

Quillspike + Devoted Druid = Infinite Giant Growth. Yes.

Avaris

2011-03-21, 07:04 AM

My favorite combo?

Quillspike + Devoted Druid = Infinite Giant Growth. Yes.

One of the few (casual) decks I have no intention of breaking apart does this, but also so much more. Combine Quillspike with Murderous Redcap or Kitchen Finks and Scarland Thrinax; 1 black or green mana to put a +1/+1 counter on the Thrinax, give the Quillspike +3/+3 until end of turn and either gain 3 life or ping something for 2 ain't a bad deal :smallbiggrin:

Gauntlet

2011-03-21, 08:54 AM

I know the Quillspike / Devoted Druid combo is used in competitive extended, in a deck built around Necrotic Ooze. It's actually pretty powerful at the moment because no-one is really prepared for it- the entire metagame at the moment, at least where I play, is Faeries vs. Jund vs. Everything Else.

IthilanorStPete

2011-03-21, 10:18 AM

There's a few others like Eternal Witness+Repeatable Bounce/Blink.

I wasn't counting three-card combos, since there's nigh-infinite of those.

Tokuhara

2011-03-21, 12:59 PM

I'm running Kuldotha Rebirth deck

Suedars

2011-03-21, 02:40 PM

I'm running Kuldotha Rebirth deck

What's your list and what are you using to help fight sweepers (which are currently the deck's achilles heel)?

Tao the Ninja

2011-03-21, 05:17 PM

Obviously, Slaver goes infinite with prototype portal+10 mana.

Avaris

2011-03-22, 04:33 AM

Gauntlet

2011-03-22, 07:44 AM

If you know where to find a deck list for this I would be very interested in seeing it... :smallbiggrin:

Here (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=781013) is one I was able to find on TCGPlayer. The main components are Fauna Shaman, Necrotic Ooze and a load of utility creatures. Some similar decks also use Demigod of Revenge as a secondary win.
A friend of mine plays a deck which works similarly, but in Standard. He uses Gigantomancer with Necrotic Ooze to kill people with his Birds of Paradise.

Tokuhara

2011-03-22, 01:27 PM

What's your list and what are you using to help fight sweepers (which are currently the deck's achilles heel)?

Main Board:

4 Memnite
4 Ornithopter
4 Signal Pest
4 Goblin Bushwacker
4 Kuldotha Rebirth
4 Goblin Guide
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Devistating Summon
3 Spikeshot Elder
2 Perilous Myr
2 Arc Lightning
4 Goblin Cheiftan
15 Mountain
4 Contested Warzone

Side Board:

1 Brittle Effigy
1 Crush
1 Lightning Bolt
4 Tunnel Ignus
1 Arc Trail
1 Pyroclasm
2 Manic Vandal
1 Act of Treason
1 Mark of Mutiny
2 Leyline of Punishment

flabort

2011-03-22, 01:52 PM

Since I'm still a novice, Mind If I ask what a side board is, or more specifically, how it works and why?

Tokuhara

2011-03-22, 01:57 PM

Since I'm still a novice, Mind If I ask what a side board is, or more specifically, how it works and why?

it's 15 cards you can switch out between rounds

Squark

2011-03-22, 02:10 PM

To be more precise, it's a collection of exactly 15 cards (Of course, if you don't have the full 15, just grab some basic lands and stick those in there) you can use to replace cards that aren't very useful against your opponents deck.

Of course, you can only use your sideboard after the first game of the match, cards must be added/removed on a 1:1 basis, and you must return your deck to it's original configuration before the next match starts.

Sideboarding is designed to make competitive play more fair and more fun, because this way you can adjust you deck to deal with a very bad matchup, without comprimising what makes your deck work in the first place. It's generally not used out side of tournaments, though (Well, and playtesting tournament decks. And Legacy decks often are played with sideboards even in casual, but that's because of the intracacy of the legacy metagame).

For instance, I'm playing my Pox deck against a Burn deck. Since I know certain cards won't be useful against him (Burn is a creature light deck, so my creature removal isn't as useful, and casting Pox against a burn deck is suicide), so I remove my creature removal spells and Poxes, and replace them with discard spells, to help me get rid of his burn spells before they end up killing me.

Androgeus

2011-03-22, 02:20 PM

Of course, you can only use your sideboard after the second game of the match
Can't you use swap cards after the first game?

Penguinizer

2011-03-22, 02:43 PM

Yes. You can sideboard between games after the first game.

Squark

2011-03-22, 03:18 PM

Sorry, that was what I meant, came out wrong.

EDIT: I'm deciding on bounce spells for a 5-color deck I'm making (It's a variant format my FLGS uses similar, but not identical to MTGO Prismatic).

I'm thinking Into the Roil, Snap, or Echoing Truth* seem like good choices. Thoughts?

*(Hits multiple tokens)

Lhurgyof

2011-03-22, 07:33 PM

Bucky

2011-03-22, 07:36 PM

I'm deciding on bounce spells for a 5-color deck I'm making (It's a variant format my FLGS uses similar, but not identical to MTGO Prismatic).

I'm thinking Into the Roil, Snap, or Echoing Truth* seem like good choices. Thoughts?

*(Hits multiple tokens)

You also might want to consider Resounding Wave.

Suedars

2011-03-22, 08:23 PM

Main Board:

4 Memnite
4 Ornithopter
4 Signal Pest
4 Goblin Bushwacker
4 Kuldotha Rebirth
4 Goblin Guide
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Devistating Summon
3 Spikeshot Elder
2 Perilous Myr
2 Arc Lightning
4 Goblin Cheiftan
15 Mountain
4 Contested Warzone

Side Board:

1 Brittle Effigy
1 Crush
1 Lightning Bolt
4 Tunnel Ignus
1 Arc Trail
1 Pyroclasm
2 Manic Vandal
1 Act of Treason
1 Mark of Mutiny
2 Leyline of Punishment

You're currently pretty soft to sweepers (though a degree of that is inevitable with Kuldotha Red). I'd cut a Pyroclasm and the Leylines from the board, since Pyroclasm hurts you more than any other deck in Standard, and lifegain isn't really being played right now. Generally the deck fights sweepers by running Brittle Effigies (though I don't like them since they've gotten a lot worse with the rise of Hawk) and Tuktuk the Explorer. Bonehoard seems like it could be pretty good against sweepers too, but I haven't tested it.

Maindeck, Arc Lightning isn't all that great for you. There aren't many decks that present multiple 1 toughness threats, and Sorcery speed hurts. I'd cut them, and move the sideboard bolt maindeck to free a slot up in your board.

Tokuhara

2011-03-22, 08:41 PM

You're currently pretty soft to sweepers (though a degree of that is inevitable with Kuldotha Red). I'd cut a Pyroclasm and the Leylines from the board, since Pyroclasm hurts you more than any other deck in Standard, and lifegain isn't really being played right now. Generally the deck fights sweepers by running Brittle Effigies (though I don't like them since they've gotten a lot worse with the rise of Hawk) and Tuktuk the Explorer. Bonehoard seems like it could be pretty good against sweepers too, but I haven't tested it.

Maindeck, Arc Lightning isn't all that great for you. There aren't many decks that present multiple 1 toughness threats, and Sorcery speed hurts. I'd cut them, and move the sideboard bolt maindeck to free a slot up in your board.

Most of the players either run Control or Infect with a Buros, an Eldrazi Ramp, and a Valakut on the side

Foeofthelance

2011-03-22, 10:00 PM

for Five Color control anywhere? Primarily around Alara block?

Duos

2011-03-25, 03:17 PM

So what do you guys think the sword of Tolstoy does? Any guesses?

Also, Omen Machine. Sewer grating, spikes, and unidentifiable glowing red liquid! Awww yeah.

Suedars

2011-03-25, 03:48 PM

White and Red are both tricky since so many of their abilities revolve around combat, and the obvious damage and lifegain have already been done. I'm thinking the W ability might involve tapping down a permanent. No clue on the R one.

memnarch

2011-03-25, 04:12 PM

Question about the stories for the different books for the sets; is there anywhere to read a summary of the events online? I don't have access to getting the books, and I'd like to know what happens.

Bucky

2011-03-25, 05:01 PM

@swords:
Relentless Assault effects haven't been used. Neither have wrath effects. The two contrast perfectly and also fit with the name.

Of course, neither actually works well on a sword, for completely different reasons.

The Extinguisher

2011-03-25, 05:12 PM

Yes, because "Whenever equipped creature deals combat damage to a player, destroy all creatures and there is an additional combat step followed by an additional main phase after the next main phase." works so well with each other :smallbiggrin:

Actually, by themselves the abilities are probably to strong to be printed, but together they don't really do anything (until you throw a darksteel plate on the creature as well)

Honestly, War and Peace is so boring. I was hoping for something like Sword of Love and Hate. That's a much cooler name.

tgva8889

2011-03-25, 05:16 PM

I would more expect, say, a "tap and doesn't untap"-style effect for White. Red is much more difficult, but I would greatly enjoy something like "destroy target non-basic land", as broken as that would be.

Bucky

2011-03-25, 05:49 PM

Honestly, War and Peace is so boring. I was hoping for something like Sword of Love and Hate. That's a much cooler name.

I can see how Love would be red, but I can't really put Hate and white together.

tgva8889

2011-03-25, 06:02 PM

Technically, Hate is Black (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=6104).

Suedars

2011-03-25, 06:27 PM

It's probably Red nowadays, since Hatred was printed back when Red's themes didn't really extend beyond fire and stupidity.

tgva8889

2011-03-25, 06:47 PM

It's probably Red nowadays, since Hatred was printed back when Red's themes didn't really extend beyond fire and stupidity.

Well, that depends. White actually has more (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=146053) prejudice (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=22955) than (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=19664) most (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=159091). And that's not including cards they felt were okay to timeshift, like Sunlance (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=222776). So arguably, White and Black are the most "hateful" colors.

Yes, you could argue that Red is hate, but Red is much less hate and much more anger. Hatred is so directed at a single target, so focused on doing specific things. Most of the time, Red would not be constrained by an emotion such as hate, Red would just do what it feels like. Hatred is actually a pretty constraining emotion, if you've ever really hated something.

Zocelot

2011-03-25, 07:47 PM

If you hate everything though, it's not nearly as constraining.

tgva8889

2011-03-25, 07:50 PM

Red doesn't hate everything, though. It just does what it wants. No one who is Red hates everything. In fact, no one hates everything.

Bucky

2011-03-25, 08:14 PM

Except Hidetsugu (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=74572). He's pretty good (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=88818) at hating.

tgva8889

2011-03-25, 08:49 PM

By the storyline, Hidetsugu didn't hate everything. And Hidetsugu hated, sure. So did Greven, he has a card for it too. Just because a character hates doesn't mean a whole color hates. People are capable of hatred.

Suedars

2011-03-26, 12:04 AM

Well, that depends. White actually has more (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=146053) prejudice (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=22955) than (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=19664) most (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=159091). And that's not including cards they felt were okay to timeshift, like Sunlance (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=222776). So arguably, White and Black are the most "hateful" colors.

Yes, you could argue that Red is hate, but Red is much less hate and much more anger. Hatred is so directed at a single target, so focused on doing specific things. Most of the time, Red would not be constrained by an emotion such as hate, Red would just do what it feels like. Hatred is actually a pretty constraining emotion, if you've ever really hated something.

Hate in the sense of color hate is different than hatred though. And Red is very much constrained by its emotions, whether they're love, hate, fear, or anything else. Being ruled/free from emotions is the core of the Red/Blue conflict.

tgva8889

2011-03-26, 01:59 AM

Well, "constrained by emotions" depends on point of view. But hatred is not just an emotion, hatred is a point of view. I mean, if hate were just an emotion, I don't think there would not be organizations designed purely to fuel hate. I think it more depends on what we are defining as "hate", because there's a lot of different ways to view "hate".

And I'm not talking about "color hate", I'm talking about prejudice. White and Black are the two colors that show the most prejudice, that is the "Only Us, if you aren't us you're one of them" mentality. Thus, I would suppose that those two colors would be most likely to have Hate, because you only hate what does not fit in your own group, and White and Black are the main group-forming colors, at least in my experience.

Suedars

2011-03-26, 02:44 AM

Yeah, prejudice definitely isn't Red. I suppose what color hate is probably depends on the variety of the hate. I can't see the hatred someone feels for a close friend who slept with their girlfriend as anything but Red. Broad prejudice based hate is definitely White though.

Also I don't really see the "With us or against us" type thing as really being Black at all. Certain B organizations across various blocks might have practiced it, but it's not really part of Black thematically. It seems purely White to me.

tgva8889

2011-03-26, 03:49 AM

Well, Black has had that influence on White before (See: Orzhov). I suppose it is mostly White alone. I think Black is the most likely to hate in a "Hate drives to succeed" type way? How would Black hate, actually? Hatred is certainly a card that is Black, but I'm not sure whether that feeling is actually hate.

Obviously the fact that there are broad definitions of hate doesn't really help matters. :smalltongue:

Squark

2011-03-26, 07:11 AM

I think hatred is a black card in the sense that the Hate is driving Greven to do whatever it takes to get revenge (I.E. Pay 10 life to kill the guy playing Gerrad)

Hate has red ties, certainly. Vendettas (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=194922) tend to be more black.

Triscuitable

2011-03-26, 09:24 PM

I HATE EVERYTHING.

Okay, what's my prize? I play blue.

tgva8889

2011-03-26, 09:28 PM

The logic behind hating everything just doesn't work. You can't hate everything, because then you would be a paradox.

Recaiden

2011-03-26, 11:44 PM

The logic behind hating everything just doesn't work. You can't hate everything, because then you would be a paradox.

No, you would only hate yourself. Isn't someone who hates everything pretty contemptible, after all?

tgva8889

2011-03-26, 11:56 PM

No, you would only hate yourself. Isn't someone who hates everything pretty contemptible, after all?

If you hated everything, I imagine you'd want to die, because you'd hate living. But you'd also hate dying, so that'd be right out. You'd also hate doing both anything and nothing, hate existing and not existing, etc. etc. Paradox. You can't hate everything.

Not sure what color hating yourself would be. Black seems most likely, just 'cause there's more cards in Black that hurt you when you use them than any other color.

Recaiden

2011-03-26, 11:59 PM

If you hated everything, I imagine you'd want to die, because you'd hate living. But you'd also hate dying, so that'd be right out. You'd also hate doing both anything and nothing, hate existing and not existing, etc. etc. Paradox. You can't hate everything.

Not sure what color hating yourself would be. Black seems most likely, just 'cause there's more cards in Black that hurt you when you use them than any other color.

Degrees of hate, my friend. Nothing says you must hate living just as much as dying, or acting as much as not acting.

Now, I think Red, because red gets emotions.

Vonriel

2011-03-27, 02:04 AM

I want to build a standard deck around Blightsteel Colossi and the best way to cheat them out. Right now, for the main combo, I'm looking at something like:
2x Blightsteel Colossus (can go up, but for now, 2 is all I have)
3x Precursor Golem
4x Shape Anew

The idea is to get out a Precursor Golem, then use Shape Anew on it, revealing at the very least one Blightsteel, since those will be the only 5 artifacts in the deck. Grand Architect probably deserves to be in the deck, along with Treasure Mage, in order to both be able to cast the Precursor before turn 5 as well as fetch a Blightsteel to hard cast it if necessary. The question is, what to do with the rest of the deck? I could keep it mono blue, but it feels like I leave myself too open to aggro if I go that route, and I can't think of many blue creatures worth grabbing off the top of my head. Blue/white seems a good idea, but the more I go out of blue, the less valuable Grand Architect becomes as a card.

Also, another concern I had, if I don't get the combo pieces, it's hard to pull off successfully. And right now, it feels like there just aren't enough ways to cheat the thing into play, nor enough ways to get the things I need to cheat it into play.

Suedars

2011-03-27, 03:38 AM

I wouldn't go with Precursor Golem. You can't search them up with Trinket/Treasure Mage, meaning you actually need to run enough to draw one, decreasing your chances of hitting a Colossus. Take a look at Gerry T's list instead: http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/standard/21063_One_Step_Ahead_Choose_MY_Adventure.html

Chalice is good since you get 5 copies of it by running Trinket Mage, and it guarantees a hit. Inkmoth Nexuses also give you artifacts to shape without lowering your hit % (though shaping them only has a 50% hit chance).

If budget is an issue you can cut the big Jaces. I'd go up 2 See Beyonds and 2 little Jaces, though I'd have to test to be sure of it beyond a guess.

Aside from that you'll want to update the list to make it more suited to a CawBlade dominated meta. First, 2 Duresses should be Inquisitions, since 2 and 3 mana cards determine Standard right now. Grave Titan is too slow without heavy acceleration now, but I'm not sure what would go in its place. 2 maindeck Disfigures could be right, but that probably leaves you a little short on ways to close out the game.

tgva8889

2011-03-27, 03:44 AM

You can run Shape Anew in a deck that plays just Master's Call and Inkmoth Nexus maybe?

Vonriel

2011-03-27, 02:32 PM

I really don't enjoy that build list. What happens when you have two Shape Anew? Ideally, you'll get your Chalice out with the Trinket Mage, then Shape Anew it into the BSC. If you wind up with two Shape Anews, though, you have a dead card in hand. I don't like that very much. Also, I forgot that if you want to run blue in the current standard meta, you have to run Jace, the Walletsculptor, so scratch that idea. :smalltongue: Seriously though, I thought about it, and I just don't think it's a deck type I can enjoy. Ultimately, I am not a control player, and to pull the deck off, you have to be. Oh well, at least I have some trade fodder to use towards another deck.. now to figure out what I want. Hrm.

Squark

2011-03-27, 02:46 PM

Bucky

2011-03-27, 03:01 PM

Ideally, I want another discard outlet (maybe waterfront bouncer), and probably a few more madness cards. Thoughts?

If you have the budget for it, Fauna Shaman is a nice discard outlet for creatures; if you don't, a Looter (Merfolk or il-Kor depending on whose turn you want to do it on) will do.

Suedars

2011-03-27, 03:10 PM

Circular Logic? Fiery Temper? Aquamoeba works as a discard outlet, though there's probably stronger effects you can get out of your discard.

tgva8889

2011-03-27, 03:45 PM

If you have the money, Vengevine is pretty much a Madness card.

Also, how many lands are you planning on playing? You can get away with a smaller number depending on what threats you plan to play.

Penguinizer

2011-03-27, 03:45 PM

I'm working on a RUG tempo deck, but I'm having trouble rounding out the list

4x Wild Mongrel
4x Basking Rootwalla
4x Deep Analysis
4x Rune Snag
4x Mana Leak
4x Lightning Bolt
1x Chain Lightning
1x Grim Lavamancer

Ideally, I want another discard outlet (maybe waterfront bouncer), and probably a few more madness cards. Thoughts?

Careful Study is a solid one shot discard outlet. Looter Il-Kor is another great one. In my pauper deck I use Wild Mongrel, Careful Study, Gathan Raider and Looter Il-Kor as my outlets.

Anyways, yeah, You really want Circular Logic. It's a great card. Also 4x Ponder. You also really want to consider Werebears for your deck.

Squark

2011-03-27, 04:46 PM

I was planning on nixing Fauna Shaman, since I didn't think I'd have quite enough creatures.

Loot Il-kor... How did I miss that guy. Yeah, I definitely need to get my hands on a play set.

If I get my hands on both Circular logic and Fiery temper (Circular logic being relatively scarce as uncommons go), I'll consider Careful Study; Otherwise, it has the potential to just generate card disadvantage.

Possible List

Creatures- 16:
4x Wild Mongrel
4x Wearbear
4x Basking Rootwalla
4x Looter Il-kor

Spells - 24
2x Careful Study
2x Deep Analysis
4x Ponder
4x Rune Snag
4x Circular Logic
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Fiery Temper

Lands- 20

Since I'm going for a reasonably cheap deck, how would you suggest setting up the mana base? Also, is it just me, or is the threat count low here. Would Raging Ravine work well here?

Penguinizer

2011-03-27, 05:03 PM

Basically, that's my pauper deck with some red. Frankly, I think the red doesn't really belong. You could do better with UG. Easier to fix the colors too.

Anyways, here's more or less what I'd do:

Creatures: 15
4x Wild Mongrel
4x Werebear
4x Basking Rootwalla
4x Looter Il-Kor
3x Gathan Raiders

Spells:
3x Careful Study
4x Ponder
4x Circular Logic
4x Mana Leak/Rune Snag
3x Deep Analysis
4x Aether Burst
3x ???

Lands: 20

The Extinguisher

2011-03-27, 10:11 PM

I HATE EVERYTHING.

Okay, what's my prize? I play blue.

Oh, for the record, the colour you play the most doesn't really reflect the colour you are.

Everyone who plays Magic is a blue mage.

Suedars

2011-03-27, 10:19 PM

I wouldn't say so. Competitive players sure. But a lot of the casual crowd probably fall in more as Red or Green, at least in their magic tendencies.

The Extinguisher

2011-03-27, 10:56 PM

I wouldn't say so. Competitive players sure. But a lot of the casual crowd probably fall in more as Red or Green, at least in their magic tendencies.

I have never met a player who's only goal in Magic was to play a bunch of creatures and that was it.

tgva8889

2011-03-27, 11:06 PM

What do you mean "Everyone who plays Magic is a Blue mage"?

Suedars

2011-03-27, 11:13 PM

I have never met a player who's only goal in Magic was to play a bunch of creatures and that was it.

I met several when I played during lunch break back in Junior High.

The Extinguisher

2011-03-27, 11:50 PM

What do you mean "Everyone who plays Magic is a Blue mage"?

A player builds a deck and plays the game because they want something intellectuality stimulating. Even if all they like doing is playing creatures, they're doing it for me reasons more than "oh hey creatures, creatures creatures creatures aren't creatures awesome look more creatures"

Lhurgyof

2011-03-28, 12:08 AM

Why does everyone play Type 2 and Extended?

This is the lineup at the local game shop:

Monday: Type 2 and Extended, Tuesday-Saturday: Type 2

:smallmad:

Suedars

2011-03-28, 01:07 AM

A player builds a deck and plays the game because they want something intellectuality stimulating. Even if all they like doing is playing creatures, they're doing it for me reasons more than "oh hey creatures, creatures creatures creatures aren't creatures awesome look more creatures"

What about people playing for the social interactions? Or people playing ridiculous Krark's Thumb coinflip decks? Or people playing Multiplayed Hive Mind, Warp World, Knowledge Pool, etc. decks? What about people who don't actually care much for the challenge of the game but just love the rush of winning? What about people who play to grief others?

People play Magic for many reasons other than the fact that it's intellectualy stimulating.

tgva8889

2011-03-28, 01:10 AM

Also, "intellectual stimulation" isn't really just Blue, is it? Black could easily seek "intellectual stimulation". Maybe not in the same way as Blue, but I could certainly see Black wanting that.

Mr._Blinky

2011-03-28, 01:13 AM

Why does everyone play Type 2 and Extended?

This is the lineup at the local game shop:

Monday: Type 2 and Extended, Tuesday-Saturday: Type 2

:smallmad:
Because some most people don't want to deal with that guy who spends $1,000+ on making a competitive Vintage deck?

Suedars

2011-03-28, 01:29 AM

Vintage is obviously ridiculous, but a number of tier one Legacy archetypes cost about as much as top Standard decks and have the benefit of becoming outdated at a much slower rate. Plus Legacy has a much healthier metagame than Standard, which can't really support more than 3 top decks due to the small card pool.

Lix Lorn

2011-03-28, 02:38 AM

tgva8889

2011-03-28, 03:40 AM

Why does everyone play Standard and Extended?

Well, no one plays Extended (seriously, there's a whole video on ChannelFireball.com about it).

As for Standard, people play it because 1) Wizards tells us to, 2) Standard is interesting because totally different every year, and 3) It is (arguably) easier to play Standard than it is to play Legacy.

The problems with Legacy (and Vintage) are generally cost (Dual lands are expensive) and the massive deckpool. The fact is, it's very, very hard to play a format where you have to prepare for what is probably 10 Tier 1 decks. Is that a healthier format than one with only 3 Tier 1 decks? Yes, probably, but it's also much harder to mentally prepare for. And Legacy isn't a stagnant format; Wizards has shown they are willing to shake things up by unbanning Time Spiral, and decks will move in and out of vogue as people become more or less prepared for them. To be good at Legacy, your deck either needs to be so broken that you can afford to be totally mindless in your pursuit of slaying your opponent or you need to be aware of how to play a lot of different match-ups. That's quite a bit of work, generally.

Usually, people don't play Legacy because it's more costly to play. But yes, it is a better long-term investment if you plan to play Magic to get Legacy and get good at Legacy. But it's not everyone's cup of tea. I like Standard because it's truly different every year. If you don't like a deck in Standard, you can be happy that it will die forever in 2 years. If you don't like a deck in Legacy, too bad it's there forever. There's some comfort in that. Also, it's a lot more interesting for me to look at Standard as a puzzle to be solved, because it's a smaller pool of cards. "Solving" Legacy would require a lot more consideration because there's just so many cards that are legal in Legacy to sift through.

Although in my opinion, the best format is Draft.