Incantatrix or Dweomerkeeper? [3.5]

[gomipile]

I might be starting a new caster at about level 5 or 6 soon, and I think I might want to set him up to be either an Incantatrix or a Dweomerkeeper.

I know the Incantatrix is really powerful and well respected, but it seems to me that the Dweomerkeeper might be more DM-friendly and possibly have a bigger impact on the party in the long run.

My reasoning stems from two facts. First, the Dweomerkeeper is in a non-setting-specific book(this DM allows most anything from official non-setting-specific WotC sources .) Second, the ability to use spells with costly components for free might have a bigger impact on the way the party uses magic than free metamagic, in the long run.

What do you all think?

[Tyndmyr]

Incanatrix, while ridiculously powerful, is relatively DM friendly.

Why? It makes you predictable. Sure, you now have your entire party covered with persisted buffs...but this means you'll be running at the same power level all day, more or less. No worries about someone running dry on spells before the boss, or walking all over something because they used the perfect buffs.

No, it's quite easy to DM for, but also ridiculously powerful.

Dweomerkeeper is also very, very powerful. That said, using it on wish or gate is...kinda crazy. You can do some game breaking things. They're on about the same power tier, but Dweomerkeeper is probably harder to adjust for as a DM. Free wishes kinda gum up the works.

[Keld Denar]

Will there be any other casters in the party? Even like, a Bard or something? If so, Incantatrix all the way. If not, Dweomerkeeper could be a decent substitute. SU Spell is very strong, you are correct.

Dweomerkeeper is a little tougher to get into though, requring Alternate Spell Source of some similar shananananananananananigans.

[Diarmuid]

It also depends on what level you think the characters are going to get to. while both are indeed powerful, I think the Incantrix comes into more of its power sooner, where the DK makes up a lot of ground late with it's capstones and availability of the highest tier spells.

[gomipile]

Will there be any other casters in the party? Even like, a Bard or something? If so, Incantatrix all the way. If not, Dweomerkeeper could be a decent substitute. SU Spell is very strong, you are correct.

Dweomerkeeper is a little tougher to get into though, requring Alternate Spell Source of some similar shananananananananananigans.

I was thinking Cloistered Cleric 1/Wizard 4/Dweomerkeeper 10. Maybe go Undeath and Healing domains and grab Healing Devotion so that I can be a backup healer using turn attempts. That only puts me down 1 CL on arcane, so its not too bad.

[Keld Denar]

If you do that, you can grab the Inquisition domain for the +4 untyped boost on dispel checks. You can also use Practiced Spellcaster (unless you are illumian) to pick up Divine Defiance. That'll let you counterspell as an immediate action using your wizard spells, adding more oomph in a mage vs mage battle.

[gomipile]

If you do that, you can grab the Inquisition domain for the +4 untyped boost on dispel checks. You can also use Practiced Spellcaster (unless you are illumian) to pick up Divine Defiance. That'll let you counterspell as an immediate action using your wizard spells, adding more oomph in a mage vs mage battle.

Ah, so I'd take Dispel Magic as my first mantle spell, so I could counterspell spontaneously? Although, the dispel check rules are pretty crappy for this purpose in the long run, capping out my CL contribution at +10.

[Keld Denar]

Dispel isn't hard to optimize though. Arcane Mastery lets you take 10 on the CL check, and Inquisition domain gives you a +4 bonus to the check (not CL boost, a bonus to the check, so it's uncapped!). Thats like taking 14 instead of taking 10. That gives you automatic dispels on anyone who is CL 13 or lower with a regular dispel magic by level 10. By then you'll be close to having access to Greater Dispel Magic, which raises the cap. There are a few other things that'll raise your dispel check, but most of them can't be used reflexively (Dispelling Cord is one of them, requires a swift action).

[gomipile]

Okay, so would you consider the Dweomerkeeper's mantle spell choices to be a feature which can be retrained under Class Feature Retraining? (PHB II) My DM does allow retraining, mostly, btw.

That way I could choose a different spell for my first mantle spell in place of Dispel Magic when I make Greater Dispel Magic a mantle spell later.

[Keld Denar]

Yup, you could totally retrain your Dweomerkeeper mantle choices.

[gomipile]

So, does anyone else have any thoughts on this? How much would the Dweomerkeeper's supernatural spell ability affect a game, with an arcane Dweomerkeeper?

[sreservoir]

keep in mind dweomerkeeper requires magic domain.

[gomipile]

keep in mind dweomerkeeper requires magic domain.

Ah, right. Still, not a harsh entry requirement.

[Endarire]

I prefer Incantatrix. I like Wizard spells. Cleric spells, while handy, were 'meh' compared to the oomph of a Wizard.

Both classes' DM-friendliness depends much on what the character does and how prepared the DM is. Persisting party buffs when your DM expects you to be a Commoner (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0780.html) is much. Using Supernatural wishes in a wish-based economy is just keeping pace.