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View Full Version : [Exalted] Dating a Demon: No Love Without Pain? Well, If You're Into That...



Leliel
2011-03-10, 07:30 PM
Well...that.

You see, a possible "redemption" storyline for one of my Infernals is him entering a healthy romance with a demon. Besides being nice for Woobie moments (he's endured a lot of pain, she's a resident of Hell and all that implies), it also serves to explore the mentality of demons, something woefully underdone.

Of course, given that one of the Yozi-drilled tenets of life, is that there is no love without pain, there is a theme song (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dvVeAhbTB4) that can probably describe a healthy relationship with a demon...

Oh, and by the way, I'm partial to an anglyka.

So, what would be your advice for courting a demon without the intention of just using them for a convenient partner in the no-pants dance?

Infernalbargain
2011-03-10, 07:50 PM
Speaking from experience here...

I'd say that it'd likely have to start with some kind of professional relationship. Then at some point there's a few Freudian slips and things are easy to carry from here.

A good guideline would be that since they're chaotic, they won't be doing things because they feel that they ought to but only because they want to. Since they're evil, the arrangement needs to be viewed as a temporary means to an end initially.

TheCountAlucard
2011-03-10, 07:56 PM
Speaking from experience here...

A good guideline would be that since they're chaotic, they won't be doing things because they feel that they ought to but only because they want to. Since they're evil, the arrangement needs to be viewed as a temporary means to an end initially.You're speaking from a D&D experience, aren't you? Different game, Infernalbargain; this is Exalted.

SurlySeraph
2011-03-10, 08:16 PM
Those are the harpists, right? The thing about how their music hurts people who aren't content with themselves is probably going to hurt any GSP. But they're focused on living in the present and relatively sane. The Second Circle they come from is relatively sane herself, just focused on hunting.

I'd say the biggest issue for an Infernal courting a First Circle demon would be that you can't do much... well... courting. You're in charge, it'd probably immediately do whatever you wanted, expect you to leave as soon as you were content, and get really confused when you kept coming back.
Another relationship challenge is that it's kinda hard to talk to a First Circle in some ways. They don't have very complex personalities; they don't have hopes, fears, and goals in a human sense. It would be like "My goal is to play my music," "I fear... not being able to play my music?", etc. Their high Lore, Occult and Linguistics means there's a lot they know, but it's all external; demons can't easily go through a process of self-discovery.

Developing a relationship with one would feel somewhat uneven, in that you'd seem to be affected by it and she wouldn't. Evoking new emotional responses from a demon would like a very significant milestone in said demon's existence.

Lord Raziere
2011-03-10, 09:00 PM
meh, If I wanted to do this, I'd just disregard canon and just custom make a First Circle demon that does actually think normally. after all, the motto of Exalted is "almost anything is possible" therefore isn't making a more complex demon a thing an Exalt could try? it can't be THAT hard....

Tackyhillbillu
2011-03-10, 09:31 PM
Here is the problem. Demon's aren't humans. They aren't capable of being 'complex beings.' They are incarnations of an emotion, and idea, some facet of a facet, of a facet. They have much more in common with the Fae then with any Exalted, or Mortal.

They have no genuine emotions. If she feels love toward your infernal? Its because it is dictated by the role she plays, not by anything beyond that. Substitute any of her identical sisters, and you would get the same. Their emotions are a sham.

Long story short? Demon's aren't humans. Don't treat them like one.

Leliel
2011-03-10, 09:36 PM
-snip-

Most of it's good...

...Except for the part about having a simple personality.

You have obviously never heard of Lucent Wing, the sorcerer agata.

He's a very good example of a First Circle that became a citizen, ie asserted that he was an individual being.

The catalyst was him going through the Five Trials, of course, but he has since evolved far beyond "I am a highly intelligent flying mount" and become his own person.

From that, it can be assumed that a citizen actually thinks of him/herself as a person, not a tool. A servant, perhaps, but they understand they have their own wants and dreams.

EDIT: Tackyhillbilly:

...Find a copy of Compass of Celestial Directions: Malfeas. Read it. Now.

Though I suppose you could say the same thing about gods, too. I mean, they are incarnations of a purpose, formed in response to a need that needed to be filled, they don't really have emotions. Sure, they have their Motivations, but that's all they are. They have much more in common with the Fae (formed through the five shinma) when you get down to it.

If a god feels love, it's because his motivation dictated it. If you find a similar god, he'll feel love in exactly the same way.

Tackyhillbillu
2011-03-10, 09:49 PM
EDIT: Tackyhillbilly:

...Find a copy of Compass of Celestial Directions: Malfeas. Read it. Now.

Though I suppose you could say the same thing about gods, too. I mean, they formed in response to a need that needed to be filled too, they don't really have emotions. Sure, they have their Motivations, but that's all they are. They aren't really people when you get down to it.

[/sarcasm]

I have.

And yes, you are right. Minus the sarcasm tag? Gods are incarnations of a concept, an emotion, an idea. They aren't 'people' either. Not everything in Exalted is a powered up Mortal. Exalted is a world filled with extremely alien beings, whose existence is quite different from your own. You need to understand this.

A Demon is a Demon. A Fae is a Fae. A God is a God. Treating them like human beings means you rob your story of their distinctiveness, and render them into something infinitely more boring then they are.

Leliel
2011-03-10, 09:59 PM
I have.

And yes, you are right. Minus the sarcasm tag? Gods are incarnations of a concept, an emotion, an idea. They aren't 'people' either. Not everything in Exalted is a powered up Mortal. Exalted is a world filled with extremely alien beings, whose existence is quite different from your own. You need to understand this.

A Demon is a Demon. A Fae is a Fae. A God is a God. Treating them like human beings means you rob your story of their distinctiveness, and render them into something infinitely more boring then they are.

Hey, I edited that tag out!


...But since you view it that way, I can see we have different ways of playing the game.

That's not bad, I don't blame you for it. I simply view Exalted as a world where the concept of "truly alien" is laughable. You do not. I am fine with this.

It's only when people get myopic that cheeses me off. It's a very grey game, after all. But since you aren't...

Let's stop the argument before it gets mean-spirited, shall we?

The_Snark
2011-03-10, 10:08 PM
Here is the problem. Demon's aren't humans. They aren't capable of being 'complex beings.' They are incarnations of an emotion, and idea, some facet of a facet, of a facet. They have much more in common with the Fae then with any Exalted, or Mortal.

They have no genuine emotions. If she feels love toward your infernal? Its because it is dictated by the role she plays, not by anything beyond that. Substitute any of her identical sisters, and you would get the same. Their emotions are a sham.

No, no, no. Demons are not humans and shouldn't be treated as such, but they aren't raksha either. They have genuine emotions. They are alien emotions, yes, but that's not the same as saying they're not real. They're not ruled by their role in a story; again, that's the Fair Folk.

Now, it is true that most First Circle demons never rise beyond the role they were created for. They're much like gods and elementals in that regard; their Motivation is tied into their nature, and they're capable of existing for thousands of years without changing. But that doesn't mean they're incapable of change or growth. Most First Circle demons who've attained citizenship have risen beyond their nature; Leliel mentioned Lucent Wing already, but that isn't the only example. The Six are a group of metody who mastered Terrestrial Hero Style, and adopted one another as a sort of imitation of a sword brotherhood. The demons who become Malfean stars, the demons who found guilds like the Reflective Foresters... these are to ordinary demons what heroic mortals are to extras, essentially.

Surly's post is more on the money, I feel; if your intended is not already extraordinary in some manner, that presents some difficulty. But it is possible that your attentions will be what pushes the demon out of its stagnation, forcing it to make its own choices and develop its own identity by placing it in an unfamiliar situation.

SurlySeraph
2011-03-10, 11:00 PM
Most of it's good...

...Except for the part about having a simple personality.

You have obviously never heard of Lucent Wing, the sorcerer agata.
(etc.)

First Circles can become sorcerers? Huh, I had no idea. Looks like coaxing a unique personality out of a demonic paramour would be easier than I thought.

Ganurath
2011-03-10, 11:08 PM
Huh... Gently encourage the Anglyka to pursue sorcery, driving her to unlock a personality? Probably should've looked into options in the Second Circle. At least you didn't try to seduce the teodozjia.

Leliel
2011-03-10, 11:17 PM
Huh... Gently encourage the Anglyka to pursue sorcery, driving her to unlock a personality? Probably should've looked into options in the Second Circle. At least you didn't try to seduce the teodozjia.

Hey, if you're up to it, go ahead.

Just don't come running to me when you become the protagonist of a harem anime.

Ganurath
2011-03-10, 11:20 PM
Hey, if you're up to it, go ahead.

Just don't come running to me when you become the protagonist of a harem anime.Nah, my Fiend's only romantic pursuits will be of the politically advantageous variety. Most complex that can get is using Loom-Snarling Deception to put on a deathknight's aura if an alliance with Skullstone needs to be "formalized."

Indon
2011-03-10, 11:29 PM
Here is the problem. Demon's aren't humans. They aren't capable of being 'complex beings.' They are incarnations of an emotion, and idea, some facet of a facet, of a facet. They have much more in common with the Fae then with any Exalted, or Mortal.

Most first circle demons are like this - just soul-stuff-spinoff with no individuality.

But some first circle demons are different - they develop their own individuality, their own quirks, their own desires and emotions. This individuality is like the 'heroic mortalhood' of first circle demons.

Demons can love, hate, and feel any mortal human emotion (and in fact, the most blissful emotion a demon can feel is the sensation of dying a satisfying mortal death) - but those outside of its' initial purview, it must be taught as part of the process of becoming a 'heroic demon'.

tonberrian
2011-03-11, 08:21 AM
On First-Circle sorcerers: They can do it, but Cecelyne has decided it's illegal to do so, so whenever they're discovered by someone who wants to enforce that, they get starred. It's also one of the few things demon-summoning can't check for, so the only way to reliably get demon-sorcerers is to discover them on your own and summon them by name.