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aart lover
2011-03-10, 08:55 PM
i mean magic itself, not who is using it or for what. personally, magic strikes me as a fairly neutral force, while others might argue that it's very nature is what makes it chaotic. what do you think?

MeeposFire
2011-03-10, 09:00 PM
It really depends on what setting we are talking about. Is this from a show, a game, and what setting of those are we talking about?

Lord Raziere
2011-03-10, 09:05 PM
well in Dark Sun, its chaotic evil.

default setting seems true neutral.

Eberron is more lawful neutral or chaotic neutral depending your perspective since technology has been made from it.

Forgotten realms seems to be more lawful neutral since it has this "Weave" thing that governs it but considering the number of times it has been messed with, it might be more chaotic neutral

other than that, no idea.

LibraryOgre
2011-03-10, 09:27 PM
The basic assumption for D&D is that (arcane) magic is neutral, no more good or evil than the user. I would say this holds true for Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms, and Spelljammer.

In Dragonlance, Magic is definitely aligned. The magic of White Wizards is good aligned, of Red Wizards is neutrally aligned, and of Black Wizards is evil. The magic of renegades is arguably chaotic, no matter the alignment of the caster.

In Dark Sun, I'd say magic carries the [evil] descriptor, but that it can be removed through preserving. However, if you look at Defilers and Preservers of Athas, you have a LOT of spellcasting options. Cerulean Wizards must be chaotic, so you can argue their power source is, too. Shadow Wizards and Grey Wizards (aka Necromancers) must be at least partially neutral, so their power source is likely neutral.

For Birthright, I'd put magic as being a neutral force, though bloodline magic probably draws on the alignment of the deific forebear.

In Ravenloft, everything is tinged with evil, except, perhaps, the abilities of paladins.

Maethirion
2011-03-10, 09:35 PM
It depends on who you ask and where you are

In terms of good and evil I'd agree with Mark Hall.

On law and chaos, in general, I think if you were to ask a wizard they would say lawful, as there are strict laws and rules to follow - if you do these actions and say these words, you will get this effect. However if you were to ask a sorcerer, for whom magic is more of an art form, they would say chaotic.

Therefore on balance, magic itself would seem to be neither - it's all dependent on the user.

Chuckthedwarf
2011-03-10, 09:41 PM
Why should magic have an alignment? Why should anything have an alignment.

Trying to pick an alignment for magic is like trying to pick an alignment for, say, violence or love or any other generally intangible but existing concept. It's either True Neutral or some other kind of Neutral, or unaligned.

Magic doesn't care what it's used for, and generally it's not even sentient by itself. Or at least not in a way a mere mortal would understand.

And if we're talking about settings like Warhammer, geez, I dunno, even with the incredibly flawed D&D alignment system it doesn't make a whole lot difference considering how pretty much every single faction is screwed up in that setting. I'd side with the Chaos if only because they seem all right. At least you know what to expect from them, plus there's always the prestige of following an uncontrollable super-powerful force of the universe. Kinda like following C'thulhu. If you're gonna be screwed anyways, might as well be a pile of murder tentacles oozing blood and insanity, it sounds more fun. Beats the brainwashing/slavery treatment.

ffone
2011-03-10, 09:42 PM
In Forgotten Realms, one might conjecture that magic / the Weave trends chaotic, but *spells* trends lawful. Spells are like ways of taming magic or channeling raw magic into more concrete units.

Godwise, for what it's worth, Forgotten Realms has Mystra, goddess of magic, who is/was Chaotic Good, and Azuth, god of wizards (and 'Lord of All Spells' or something), who is LN (this is as of 3.5, 4e killed Mystra - again - and may've fracked other things).

I don't know of any alignment for the Weave itself, but, in any case its steward has generally been CG (Mystra).

FR also has the Shadow Weave, which is definitely evil-themed. It doesn't confer the descriptor on spells, and IIRC the feat to start using it - Shadow Weave Magic - doesn't have an alignment prereq (Wis 15 or patron deity Shar, who is NE) but it's promoted by Shar and I'd guess almost all its practitioners are Evil.

Ravens_cry
2011-03-10, 09:55 PM
I wouldn't even say its true neutral, I would say it is more like animals, no alignment at all. It is a tool. A hammer has no moral qualities in itself, it is what it is used for that counts.
A healing spell can give a child back to their parents, it can be used for the worst cold blooded torture.

Alleran
2011-03-10, 09:57 PM
Forgotten realms seems to be more lawful neutral since it has this "Weave" thing that governs it but considering the number of times it has been messed with, it might be more chaotic neutral
It changes. See, originally there was Mystryl, who was either TN or CN (I forget which). Under her stewardship of the Weave, it was basically just energy. Neutral, potentially Chaotic Neutral.

After Mystryl had to die and reincarnate herself as Mystra, though, Mystra set up new laws to govern magic and ensure that what had happened once could not happen again. This resulted in the Weave shifting into a codified structure, with rules and laws that it (generally) followed.

After the Time of Troubles, Midnight ascended to become Mystra 2.0 following the death of the previous Mystra, and the Weave shifted slightly. For a time, it was very concentrated towards NG (since Mystra was now NG) with strong lawful tendencies (attenuated slightly owing to the rise of wild and dead magic), and as a result a lot of battle spells and the like (i.e. effects more easily used for evil) became extremely difficult to use. At one point it was mentioned that wizards were having to spend something on the order of twelve to eighteen hours just to memorise a fireball.

However, Mystra was pulled up by the other gods for that, and told that she had to administer it equally to all. She could have her own opinions on its use and promote those uses through her clergy and followers, but that didn't mean she could favour one side over the other in the administration of her duties, since it would affect the Balance (even evil gods have to be balanced - Bane, for example, has to promote tyranny, oppression and all that fun stuff equally between his own followers and followers of goodly gods; Cyric has to administer strife and lies to both good and evil). So the Weave shifted back into its LN alignment.

Then, when the Sellplague hit, everything went to hell and FR magic jumped headlong into the CN alignment faster than you can say "wait, that's not gone right..." while watching the blue fire in the sky coming closer-oh my gods spellcasters are going insane and we are so screwed.

LibraryOgre
2011-03-10, 09:57 PM
Why should magic have an alignment? Why should anything have an alignment.

Because in (pre-4e) D&D, alignment is a fact of the universe. Alignment isn't abstract... it's as fundamental as gravity. It is how the multiverse orders itself. You can play D&D without this assumption, but it is built into the game.

While in most game worlds, magic is without alignment, that doesn't mean that it is so in all worlds... q.v. my earlier post about Ravenloft, where it's quite possible to have someone of the Paladin class who is not only Chaotic and Evil, but also a great lord of the land.


Godwise, for what it's worth, Forgotten Realms has Mystra, goddess of magic, who is/was Chaotic Good, and Azuth, god of wizards (and 'Lord of All Spells' or something), who is LN (this is as of 3.5, 4e killed Mystra - again - and may've fracked other things).

Mystra's got a bit of a story. In 1e, she was LN, as was Azuth. In the Time of Troubles, she was replaced by Midnight, who was NG, but Azuth convinced her that she needed to be LN while handling the Weave... her few breaks from this (IIRC, at one point she robbed all of Cyric's clerics of their spellcasting powers) were not well-received. She acted more as a custodian of a natural resource, rather than a source of magic. By late 2e, it was implied that she was transitioning to LN alignment.

EDIT: NINJA! VANISH!

MeeposFire
2011-03-10, 09:59 PM
It would be hard to use raise dead for torture unless you can get somebody the soul trusts to cast the spell since the soul chooses whether or not to come back (at least in 3e). Healing spells work for torture though.

aart lover
2011-03-10, 11:15 PM
Because in (pre-4e) D&D, alignment is a fact of the universe. Alignment isn't abstract... it's as fundamental as gravity. It is how the multiverse orders itself. You can play D&D without this assumption, but it is built into the game.

While in most game worlds, magic is without alignment, that doesn't mean that it is so in all worlds... q.v. my earlier post about Ravenloft, where it's quite possible to have someone of the Paladin class who is not only Chaotic and Evil, but also a great lord of the land.



Mystra's got a bit of a story. In 1e, she was LN, as was Azuth. In the Time of Troubles, she was replaced by Midnight, who was NG, but Azuth convinced her that she needed to be LN while handling the Weave... her few breaks from this (IIRC, at one point she robbed all of Cyric's clerics of their spellcasting powers) were not well-received. She acted more as a custodian of a natural resource, rather than a source of magic. By late 2e, it was implied that she was transitioning to LN alignment.

EDIT: NINJA! VANISH!

indeed. it says in the manual itself, alignment is not abstract and open to interpretation as it is in the real world, in dnd it's what defines the cosmos, as fundamental and concrete as the laws of physics( and even that can be bent and made a mockery of by the forces of magic:smalltongue:). but really, to me, magic serves no one in particular. it serves whoever is willing to master it. whether it be the wise old sage, or the insane evil warlock. this is what makes it neutral in my eyes.

Psyren
2011-03-11, 09:09 AM
I wouldn't say it's Unaligned. After all, various spells are specifically aligned, arrayed across spectrums. So Neutral seems the best fit to me.

Darth Stabber
2011-03-11, 12:55 PM
{{scrubbed}}

Hawkfrost000
2011-03-11, 02:19 PM
i think its lawful neutral because certain things will always give the same results, it follows a few quantifiable rules.

Zaydos
2011-03-11, 02:27 PM
i think its lawful neutral because certain things will always give the same results, it follows a few quantifiable rules.

Unless you're a wild mage (2e wizard specialization, 3.5 PrC, 4e Sorcerer power source) :smalltongue:

I make it Unaligned even in 2 and 3.5. Now that's not to say it is impossible for parts of magic to be aligned just that the great bulk of magic is completely without alignment.

MeeposFire
2011-03-11, 02:37 PM
{{scrubbed}}

Amazing that on this site you can't seem to go one page on a mostly editionless, or even potentially D&Dless question, that somebody feels like they need to make a nasty comment on 4e. Can't we have conversations about the alignment of magic without making a comment on how much we like a particular game?

randomhero00
2011-03-11, 02:49 PM
I can also see magic as being good because it helps mortals evolve/advance further.

mootoall
2011-03-11, 03:51 PM
I can also see magic as being good because it helps mortals evolve/advance further. Until, of course, they get immolated by the crazy guy in the robes. True Neutral.

MeeposFire
2011-03-11, 04:10 PM
Until, of course, they get immolated by the crazy guy in the robes. True Neutral.

Until that immolation starts a fire that provides warmth for all the people, good. Of course this is why you do not base alignment of a tool based on how it is used. Swords can kill and protect it does not have an alignment it is just a tool.

Magic is neutral/unaligned. Individual effects in certain editions may have an alignment (based on an alignment tag) magic itself is neutral/unaligned. It is elemental like in nature in games like D&D and is overall treated much as such. Even in Dark Sun magic is not evil it is just used incorrectly. Is fusion power evil just because if you were to use it carelessly (assuming you found a way to use it) would fusion be evil because you incinerated everything in a wide radius? Of course not the user would be committing the act the fusion power was just being used carelessly.

aart lover
2011-03-11, 05:35 PM
hmm, so far no one has argued it to be chaotic. i would think that someone would at least point out that a good portion of magic is pretty unpredictable:smallconfused:

Bibliomancer
2011-03-11, 05:42 PM
I wouldn't even say its true neutral, I would say it is more like animals, no alignment at all. It is a tool. A hammer has no moral qualities in itself, it is what it is used for that counts.
A healing spell can give a child back to their parents, it can be used for the worst cold blooded torture.

Perhaps you are referring to 4e, but in 3.5 all animals are True Neutral (the equivalent of 'un-aligned' but sharing the alignment as 'balance-obsessed', 'apathetic', and 'normal human').


hmm, so far no one has argued it to be chaotic. i would think that someone would at least point out that a good portion of magic is pretty unpredictable:smallconfused:

That would require having a working definition of chaos besides 'stupid' or 'irrational'. Most people equate lawful with 'law-abiding' due to the name, but seem to have an even less well-defined concept of chaos.

The definition I use is based on this article. (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/columns/checkfortraps/8386-Check-for-Traps-All-About-Alignment)

By its standards, spellcasting would tend to be lawful (a wizard preares spells generally the same way) while magic not pinned down by rules would be chaotic. Any quantified magic is somewhat lawful, by the definition I'm using.

Calimehter
2011-03-11, 05:42 PM
hmm, so far no one has argued it to be chaotic. i would think that someone would at least point out that a good portion of magic is pretty unpredictable:smallconfused:

Try Warhammer sometime. :smallbiggrin: Both the fluff and the crunch support the chaotic nature of magic in a big way.

The real answer (however much of a 'copout' it is for debate purposes) is that magic's nature or "alignment" is ALWAYS going to be setting specific, because magic in a given setting is just a construct of the setting creator's imagination, and it will behave however he/she/they want it to.

If magic is just a tool like a hammer or a sword or a robot, then any good or evil that comes from magic use is nothing more than the particular use it was put to. If magic comes from 'aligned' sources (D&D, Warhammer) or particular types of magic have effects above and beyond their basic use (D&D again, also the inherent corrupting influence of warlock magic in Dresden), then the actual use of a given spell may only be a small part of the equation when it comes to determining good or evil.

aart lover
2011-03-11, 05:56 PM
Try Warhammer sometime. :smallbiggrin: Both the fluff and the crunch support the chaotic nature of magic in a big way.

The real answer (however much of a 'copout' it is for debate purposes) is that magic's nature or "alignment" is ALWAYS going to be setting specific, because magic in a given setting is just a construct of the setting creator's imagination, and it will behave however he/she/they want it to.

If magic is just a tool like a hammer or a sword or a robot, then any good or evil that comes from magic use is nothing more than the particular use it was put to. If magic comes from 'aligned' sources (D&D, Warhammer) or particular types of magic have effects above and beyond their basic use (D&D again, also the inherent corrupting influence of warlock magic in Dresden), then the actual use of a given spell may only be a small part of the equation when it comes to determining good or evil.

what i had in mind was a tad more specific. the fireball spell to be exact, might incinerate your enemy, might blow up in your face, depends on the roll, very unpredictable. but yes, you're right, it really depends on who's using it.

LibraryOgre
2011-03-11, 06:05 PM
My main argument against magic being chaotic is that, in general, it obeys certain rules. This is evidenced in that wizards can create certain spell formulae and reliably repeat those spells regardless of day, time, or anything else (though the formulae may take astronomical and other conditions into account, they are still repeatable). Outside of specifically chaotic situations (i.e. "Wild magic"), a spell that creates water one day won't the next create a spray of high-velocity begonias.

Alleran
2011-03-11, 08:12 PM
Try Warhammer sometime. :smallbiggrin: Both the fluff and the crunch support the chaotic nature of magic in a big way.
Interestingly, the WHF setting has sort of both. While the energy is within the Aethyr, it is completely chaotic, as you would expect. However, once it moves through the polar gates and into the WH world proper, it is forced to accommodate the rules and laws of the material world, pressed into a series of strictures that limit its chaotic potential and drive it towards a neutral alignment.

Ravens_cry
2011-03-11, 09:10 PM
Perhaps you are referring to 4e, but in 3.5 all animals are True Neutral (the equivalent of 'un-aligned' but sharing the alignment as 'balance-obsessed', 'apathetic', and 'normal human').

OK, so I got that bit wrong, but my point still stands. Magic is a force of nature in the sense of being a law of physics in the worlds it exists and a tool, an application of said laws of physics. Neither have any moral or ethical value. A hammer can build a home for a friend, it can build a gallows for a lynching. Rain can wipe out villages, it can give the water for crops. Good, Evil, Law, Chaos, or even Neutrality in either the wishy washy dithering or the philosophical viewpoint senses don't apply.

hewhosaysfish
2011-03-12, 08:28 AM
A hammer can build a home for a friend, it can build a gallows for a lynching. Rain can wipe out villages, it can give the water for crops.


Well obviously, hammers would be LE (because they're perfectly obedient tools that will allow themselves to be used for whatever purpose their master dictates, good or ill).
Rain, on the other hand, is CE. Seems nice and friendly, watering everyone's crops, until one day it wakes up in a foul mood and just kills everyone.

mikau013
2011-03-12, 08:42 AM
I've always seen magic like... a bowl of clay.

Wizards shape it into easily cast lumps (preperation)
Gods shape it for their followers (clerics?)
Sorcerers shape and channel it while casting.

So basically, I'd say its alignment is probably chaotic untill shaped into a spell or magical item etc.

aart lover
2011-03-12, 10:08 AM
I've always seen magic like... a bowl of clay.

Wizards shape it into easily cast lumps (preperation)
Gods shape it for their followers (clerics?)
Sorcerers shape and channel it while casting.

So basically, I'd say its alignment is probably chaotic untill shaped into a spell or magical item etc.

that's very interesting, i've never heard about the concept of " raw magic ".

mikau013
2011-03-12, 05:01 PM
that's very interesting, i've never heard about the concept of " raw magic ".

Well that is how it always made sense to me, I could of course be very wrong in this regard. But that is why imo wizards need to study, and use many pages in their spellbooks to prepare for example power word spells. They mold the magic into a spell they can then use by proclaiming that power word.

And the artificer fluff text in ecs looks interesting too, since it says that artificers magic is neither arcane nor divine but as they themselves believe it pure (raw :smallsmile:) magic

Ravens_cry
2011-03-12, 05:14 PM
Magical particle physics, now there is a Knowledge skill for you.

aart lover
2011-03-12, 11:13 PM
Magical particle physics, now there is a Knowledge skill for you.

and so was born another obscure and virtually useless skill...:smalltongue:

Ravens_cry
2011-03-12, 11:28 PM
and so was born another obscure and virtually useless skill...:smalltongue:
Or the best skill ever! Any Sufficiently Analysed Magic is Indistinguishable from Science!:smallamused:

Zaydos
2011-03-12, 11:33 PM
Or the best skill ever! Any Sufficiently Analysed Magic is Indistinguishable from Science!:smallamused:

Seeing as how science is just sufficient analysis... That said it is not always indistinguishable from technology (unless technology has 3 in 20 chance of performing a wild surge each time you use it).

Ravens_cry
2011-03-12, 11:45 PM
Seeing as how science is just sufficient analysis... That said it is not always indistinguishable from technology (unless technology has 3 in 20 chance of performing a wild surge each time you use it).
The time at which a given radioactive atom decays is random, that doesn't stop us from using radioactivity in various ways. Sure, wild magic is a relatively unreliable technology, but the rewards may be worth the risks depending on the situation. It might not be safe enough for consumer use, but in a war it could have its uses.
But yes, science can study magic, even wild magic.

Lord Raziere
2011-03-12, 11:52 PM
Well that is how it always made sense to me, I could of course be very wrong in this regard. But that is why imo wizards need to study, and use many pages in their spellbooks to prepare for example power word spells. They mold the magic into a spell they can then use by proclaiming that power word.

And the artificer fluff text in ecs looks interesting too, since it says that artificers magic is neither arcane nor divine but as they themselves believe it pure (raw :smallsmile:) magic

thats how I imagine magic to be in general, magic is just a different from of energy once you get down to it. a weird form of energy that responds to certain thoughts, sounds and hand gestures all happening at the same time but still energy, just like how electricity for whatever reason is conducted through wires and responds to buttons being pressed, magic is the electricity and spells are the buttons you press to make it work, they just happen to be really complex buttons.

and of course since clerics have connections to their god, we can correctly reason that magic is connective and all that. when you get right down to it, magic is just a different form of electricity, a form of energy that behaves differently.

@ Zaydos: hey y'know how we have an electrical Grid pulsing throughout everywhere with electricity running through it and such? now y'know how we get power outages? yea turns out electricity doesn't monitor itself and that there are people who need to adjust dials and such every once in a while so that things like that don't occur. and that the technology we do that with is sort of outdated, so yea electricity does have wild magic properties if you count having to be monitored in case it suddenly decides to go power-outage-y.

aart lover
2011-03-13, 11:06 AM
thats how I imagine magic to be in general, magic is just a different from of energy once you get down to it. a weird form of energy that responds to certain thoughts, sounds and hand gestures all happening at the same time but still energy, just like how electricity for whatever reason is conducted through wires and responds to buttons being pressed, magic is the electricity and spells are the buttons you press to make it work, they just happen to be really complex buttons.

and of course since clerics have connections to their god, we can correctly reason that magic is connective and all that. when you get right down to it, magic is just a different form of electricity, a form of energy that behaves differently.

@ Zaydos: hey y'know how we have an electrical Grid pulsing throughout everywhere with electricity running through it and such? now y'know how we get power outages? yea turns out electricity doesn't monitor itself and that there are people who need to adjust dials and such every once in a while so that things like that don't occur. and that the technology we do that with is sort of outdated, so yea electricity does have wild magic properties if you count having to be monitored in case it suddenly decides to go power-outage-y.

that sounds about right. lol, the " they happen to be really complex buttons" part made me think of pressing 50 different buttons just to shoot the crossbow in black ops XD.