Arrow-Throwing Bard

[thereaper]

Yes, you heard right.

Arrows can be used as melee weapons. Throw Anything lets you throw melee weapons. So, I have an idea for a character that throws arrows at people (along with just about any other weapon he finds, for that matter). Best part is, since drawing an arrow is a free action, he won't need Quick Draw.

He also plans on using a Kazoo as his instrument, and loves using Suggestion and similar spells to make monsters do ridiculous things (like put lampshades on their heads or take off all their clothing and armor). Combine with illusions, and he might even be able to convince monsters to power attack themselves in very private places.

Yeah, this would be a character who takes great joy in the absurd.

So, my question is, what feats/prestige classes would be good for such a character?

And would there be any way for him to mitigate the -4 penalty on his arrow attacks (since they're an improvised weapon)?

[Zaq]

An improvised weapon, you say? Any way you can get Drunken Master involved?

[thereaper]

I considered that, but when looking through the prestige class I couldn't help but notice two things:

1) Lots of prereqs I'm not necessarily interested in
2) You don't actually gain proficiency with improvised weapons (or anything to compensate for the -4 to hit).

[Rixx]

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/throw-anything-combat---final

Pathfinder's Throw Anything negates the -4 penalty, if it's allowed. Might need to rename it to avoid confusion.

[Curmudgeon]

Your thrown arrows will do piddly damage compared to bow-fired arrows. If you look carefully at the rules you'll see it's the projectile weapons which establish the damage; the ammunition itself doesn't have any damage when used as an improvised thrown weapon, but it'll have to be lower than its improvised dagger equivalent (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#arrows) when held firmly in hand. So maybe 1d2/1d3. Plus you've got the 10' range increments and 50' maximum range issue.

This strikes me as a screwy idea.

Anyway, the Improvised Weapon Proficiency feat (Dragon # 295, page 73) will reduce the penalty for using improvised weapons from -4 to -2. Hulking Hurler's Really Throw Anything ability and the City Brawler Barbarian ACF (Dragon # 349, page 92) give the same reduction. (Of course none of these stack together.)

[Warsmurf]

Also in the Spell Compendium there is the Launch Bolt cantrip.


Who needs to THROW an arrow when you can gently flick it 80 feet with a snap of your fingers?

[Combat Reflexes]

Also in the Spell Compendium there is the Launch Bolt cantrip.


Who needs to THROW an arrow when you can gently flick it 80 feet with a snap of your fingers?

If only there was some way to cast this 24/7, and Quickened...

[Rixx]

Pathfinder cantrips can be cast without being expended!

..

p-pathfinder

[gallagher]

An improvised weapon, you say? Any way you can get Drunken Master involved?

that really is the only way to truly improvise your weapons. anything else is just silly

[Volos]

What this build needs is deflect/catch arrow. Toss arrows at people until they start attacking you with their own or with other ranged weapons, catch those weapons and throw them back at your foes. This way you almost never run out of ammo, just use your foes! And you don't need the proper weapon needed to shoot them back, you can just throw them. It's perfect! Just don't be surprised when you're suddenly being shot at by balistas. We DMs are funny like that.

"Catch this!"

[thereaper]

Your thrown arrows will do piddly damage compared to bow-fired arrows. If you look carefully at the rules you'll see it's the projectile weapons which establish the damage; the ammunition itself doesn't have any damage when used as an improvised thrown weapon, but it'll have to be lower than its improvised dagger equivalent (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#arrows) when held firmly in hand. So maybe 1d2/1d3. Plus you've got the 10' range increments and 50' maximum range issue.

This strikes me as a screwy idea.

Anyway, the Improvised Weapon Proficiency feat (Dragon # 295, page 73) will reduce the penalty for using improvised weapons from -4 to -2. Hulking Hurler's Really Throw Anything ability and the City Brawler Barbarian ACF (Dragon # 349, page 92) give the same reduction. (Of course none of these stack together.)

Yes, it is screwy.

But then again, so is using a Greataxe or a Greatclub when you could just use a Greatsword. And the fact that the character plans on using thrown weapons instead of something more effective is screwy. Heck, the fact that he's a Bard at all (as opposed to a Wizard or Sorceror or whatnot) is screwy, when you get right down to it.

But this wouldn't be a character built with the intention of being optimal. This would be a character used with the intention of being fun to play. And the sheer absurdity of throwing arrows (among other random things) at people is hilariously fun.

All that said, however, that improvised weapon proficiency feat is exactly the answer to my second issue. So, thanks a bunch.

[SurlySeraph]

I actually started a build along those lines ones for one of the Iron Chef Optimization contests a while back, to take advantage of Drunken Master's improvised weapon damage bonus and Corkscrew Rush. The cornerstone was using Bloodfreeze Arrow, a Ranger/ Assassin spell from Champions of Ruin, which is Instant, gives your arrows some cold damage, requires anyone hit with them to save vs. paralysis, and has no clause about breaking or going away. The idea was to get a couple adamantine arrows, cast Bloodfreeze Arrow on them, use Bloodstorm Blade so they'd ricochet back to me without breaking after being thrown, and charge people with Hurling Charge. However, I gave up on it when I couldn't find a way to throw multiple weapons while making a charge.

Anyway. Going with Dragonfire Inspiration is probably smart. Master Thrower would of course be a good PrC choice, as would be Bloodstorm Blade. If you can get a wand or find another way to pick it up, I recommend that Bloodfreeze Arrow trick I outlined. Raptor Arrows (MiC) are a good idea; they're automatically Returning and don't break, and if you have True Believer (or are a Divine Bard and give up a 4th-level slot) they're automatically Bane against anything they hit. Since Returning weapons don't actually come back to you until the end of the round, I'd go with two levels of Bloodstorm Blade for Lightning Ricochet so that they *do* spring back to you instantly after each attack so you don't have to buy more than one.
And since BsB levels means I'm recommending a Bard/ Warblade, taking Song of the White Raven is a good idea.

[Curmudgeon]

The cornerstone was using Bloodfreeze Arrow, a Ranger/ Assassin spell from Champions of Ruin, which is Instant, gives your arrows some cold damage, requires anyone hit with them to save vs. paralysis, and has no clause about breaking or going away.
There's no need for any "clause about breaking" in a spell description; that's a general rule of the game. You would need a clause creating an exception to that general rule, and Bloodfreeze Arrow doesn't have such an exception. Your magically fortified arrows will still break 100% of the time when they hit a target.

[LibraryOgre]

So... essentially, you're making a bard that throws darts?

[Chuckthedwarf]

You draw shuriken like ammunition ( no Quick Draw involved) and they do the same tiny amount of damage the arrows would. Get an EWP:Shuriken or 1 level of monk/ninja, and bam, you don't even face the -4 penalty.

[SurlySeraph]

There's no need for any "clause about breaking" in a spell description; that's a general rule of the game. You would need a clause creating an exception to that general rule, and Bloodfreeze Arrow doesn't have such an exception. Your magically fortified arrows will still break 100% of the time when they hit a target.

I'm referring there to how most spells that are cast on arrows that I'm aware of have clauses about how the spell dissipates or the arrow is destroyed if you don't fire the arrow within one round. Bloodfreeze Arrow lacks such a clause, so if you have an arrow that normally isn't destroyed after hitting (i.e., a Raptor Arrow by RAW, maybe others if your GM houserules), you can keep on using it.

[Radar]

If he's playing a bard, then low basic damage is not an issue - there is Dragonfire Inspiration. Awful range increment is more problematory. AFAIK Master Thrower had an ability to switch all your ranged thrown attacks into ranged touch attacks - it would help greatly.

[thereaper]

Actually, in order to add even more hilarity and wtf-ness to the idea, I decided it should be a half-minotaur so it can qualify for Hulking Hurler. Just so it can throw flaming corpses at people, along with anything else it finds (which is really the whole point; throwing things that should not be thrown). Master Thrower might also find it's way in (but even so, only one level of each is necessary, since the stuff that comes after just doesn't really mesh well).

[JamesonCourage]

Your thrown arrows will do piddly damage compared to bow-fired arrows. If you look carefully at the rules you'll see it's the projectile weapons which establish the damage; the ammunition itself doesn't have any damage when used as an improvised thrown weapon, but it'll have to be lower than its improvised dagger equivalent (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#arrows) when held firmly in hand. So maybe 1d2/1d3. Plus you've got the 10' range increments and 50' maximum range issue.

This strikes me as a screwy idea.

Don't forget how drawing an arrow is not a free action when used this way. From the SRD:


Ammunition
Projectile weapons use ammunition: arrows (for bows), bolts (for crossbows), or sling bullets (for slings). When using a bow, a character can draw ammunition as a free action; crossbows and slings require an action for reloading. Generally speaking, ammunition that hits its target is destroyed or rendered useless, while normal ammunition that misses has a 50% chance of being destroyed or lost.

[Dimers]

Since nobody's said it yet:

[voice of Leonard Nimoy] "Do not throw the arrow which will return against you."[/voice of Leonard Nimoy]

[ffone]

Throwing arrows: like shuriken, with more damage.

Your DM may rule that the -4s for using them as melee weapons and for throwing a nonthrowing weapon stack for -8. If so, use shuriken.

Or buy a bunch of least crystals of return and use a normal thrown weapon.

There's a feat for Cha to attack with (cross)bows - Cha synergy is often attractive for a bard build of course - but it says *bow*, not arrow, technically wouldn't help....

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fey/20030815a

[Curmudgeon]

Throwing arrows: like shuriken, with more damage.
I've got no idea where that idea came from. Care to explain?

[thereaper]

Arrows deal damage as a dagger of their size when used as melee weapons. Throwing them would give them the same damage capabilities.

[Narren]

I believe either the Dragonlance Campaign setting or War of The Lance book has a couple of feats that allow you to use improvised weapons with no penalty if you take both, or -2 if you just take the first one.

[Curmudgeon]

Arrows deal damage as a dagger of their size when used as melee weapons. Throwing them would give them the same damage capabilities. That's not supported by the rules.
To determine the size category and appropriate damage for an improvised weapon, compare its relative size and damage potential to the weapon list to find a reasonable match. Damage is largely about delivering energy to the target. Kinetic energy is proportional to mass x velocity2. When you hold a weapon in hand the energy is supplied by the mass and speed of your arm. When you throw a weapon it's just the mass and speed of the weapon itself. A thrown dagger causes damage because it's got enough mass to drive the sharp part into the target. An arrow is only 3/10th as heavy as a dagger; arrows shot from bows cause damage because they're driven at much faster speeds than you can get by tossing something with your hands. Shuriken weigh about the same as arrows but are specifically designed to be hand-propelled; they get speed both from arm movement and flicking the wrist. Since you want to throw arrows straight rather than spinning them, they would end up being slower.

Comparing an arrow's relative size and damage potential (kinetic energy) to the weapon list, I'd rate thrown arrows as similar to, but a bit lower than, shuriken: 1/1 instead of 1/1d2.

[ffone]

I've got no idea where that idea came from. Care to explain?

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm

Arrow 1d4, shuriken 1d2.

So arrow's better if you lack shuriken proficiency AND your DM doesn't say that the -4 from melee arrows 'stacks' with a -4 for throwing them (since they have no listed range increment) for -8.

The OP request will probably be well suited by finding a way around the -4, though, like least augment crystals or Quick Draw (possibly from Master Thrower 1). That also opens you up to use thrown weapons with better range increments, like hammers and javelins, or those which qualify for Master Thrower tricks.

[Curmudgeon]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm

Arrow 1d4, shuriken 1d2.
You're making a leap there. Weapons designed to be used both in melee and as ranged weapons do have the same damage for both uses. However, there isn't a rule which says that improvised weapons have the same damage in both cases. In particular, an arrow used as intended as a ranged weapon does not have the same damage when used as an improvised melee weapon. Similarly, when attempting to determine its damage as an improvised ranged weapon, you also follow the rules and compare its relative size and damage potential to the weapon list to find a reasonable match in that case ─ and this can result in different answers for melee and ranged damage.

[Tech Boy]

I REALLY like that idea!

[Tvtyrant]

That's not supported by the rules. Damage is largely about delivering energy to the target. Kinetic energy is proportional to mass x velocity2. When you hold a weapon in hand the energy is supplied by the mass and speed of your arm. When you throw a weapon it's just the mass and speed of the weapon itself. A thrown dagger causes damage because it's got enough mass to drive the sharp part into the target. An arrow is only 3/10th as heavy as a dagger; arrows shot from bows cause damage because they're driven at much faster speeds than you can get by tossing something with your hands. Shuriken weigh about the same as arrows but are specifically designed to be hand-propelled; they get speed both from arm movement and flicking the wrist. Since you want to throw arrows straight rather than spinning them, they would end up being slower.

Comparing an arrow's relative size and damage potential (kinetic energy) to the weapon list, I'd rate thrown arrows as similar to, but a bit lower than, shuriken: 1/1 instead of 1/1d2.

Think of all the dead catgirls Curmudgeon, think of them and weep. :P

[thereaper]

Yes, because as we all know, weapon damage in D&D is based upon real world physics. That's why a pointy shuriken does less damage than an unarmed strike.


You're making a leap there. Weapons designed to be used both in melee and as ranged weapons do have the same damage for both uses. However, there isn't a rule which says that improvised weapons have the same damage in both cases. In particular, an arrow used as intended as a ranged weapon does not have the same damage when used as an improvised melee weapon. Similarly, when attempting to determine its damage as an improvised ranged weapon, you also follow the rules and compare its relative size and damage potential to the weapon list to find a reasonable match in that case ─ and this can result in different answers for melee and ranged damage.

But, if we are to assume that logic has a place here, then the fact that every single melee weapon in the weapon list does the same damage when thrown implies that arrows would be the same (in the absence of an explicit exception). There is no rule (as far as I'm aware) stating that weapons only do the same damage when thrown and used in melee if they were designed to be used as weapons.

But if we stick to only the rules themselves and base the arrow's thrown damage on the damage of whatever weapon is closest to it in size, then the most logical choice is...well, an arrow. Which we already know does as much damage as a dagger of it's size. You can't get closer than the actual thing. Remember, it does not specify that one should look for the weapon closest in size that has a listed thrown damage, likely because there is no such separation (see above).

[Curmudgeon]

But, if we are to assume that logic has a place here, then the fact that every single melee weapon in the weapon list does the same damage when thrown implies that arrows would be the same (in the absence of an explicit exception).
You're assuming that weapons designed to be effective both in melee and ranged use demonstrate a pattern that applies to weapons not designed for such dual use. That's poor logic.

There is no rule (as far as I'm aware) stating that weapons only do the same damage when thrown and used in melee if they were designed to be used as weapons.
There is also no rule stating that improvised weapons do the same damage in different contexts.

I prefer to stick to the actual written rules rather than making up new ones where there's merely some observed pattern.

[thereaper]

Any melee weapon can be thrown, including those that are not designed for it. They do not suffer a damage penalty for it. I see no reason to believe arrows would work any differently.

[Curmudgeon]

Any melee weapon can be thrown, including those that are not designed for it. They do not suffer a damage penalty for it.
That's not precisely true. Rather, the damage when you throw a weapon not designed for the purpose isn't specified.

[Doomboy911]

You know how they show some bards using their guitars as bows. Do they have stats for that?

[Combat Reflexes]

You know how they show some bards using their guitars as bows. Do they have stats for that?

I'd tweak Elvencraft a little so the bow can also be used as a guitar/harp

(an Elvencraft long- or shortbow costs you 300gp, and the weapon can then double as a quarterstaff. Bonus points if you make your guitar Shock or Thundering:smallsmile:)