"Hale Mary" Rogue build

[vageta31]

Just throwing around some ideas here as I'm bored, but I really like the idea of a Rogue with a greatsword. It seems to get the most out of sneak attack you're expected to do TWF, but when you have to move you only get one attack anyways the same as if you were wielding a 2h weapon. So I was thinking to go about a somewhat efficient way of making a build that combines the ability to sneak attack with a 2h weapon. Keep in mind this isn't an "optimized" build, but could be fun and still work if done right. First trick is to get your damage per hit as high as possible using other methods than just power attack. Second trick is to keep your to hit bonus high as possible since dex will still be important in light armor and no weapon finesse.

Problems are that it's a MAD build and you'd need good str/dex/int, along with good con for hps and hopefully not horrible wis/cha for later in the build. At least wis 12 and cha 10. Items can help at that point in the game.


Also movement is key so heavy armor is out. Build requires light armor for full movement speed, and since you're no Tank you'd still have to fight like a Rogue and stay out of harms way. I'm sure there are a ton of ways to optimize this using +LA races, templates and such, but for the sake of simplicity(and strict DM's) let's assume it's mostly core books, complete and a few other less esoteric. ToB, RoS, etc... are out. I'm going to throw in UA for one reason and I'm sure you know what that is. Different campaigns offer different ways to do it, but you'd have to find a way to get knowledge skills as class skills without eating up a lot of BAB with classes that start with 0 BAB. Able learner, educated, 1 level factotum, etc..

Build is in any order you want based on if you have exp penalty or not in your game and your feat priorities. Weapon finesse from swash is wasted, so if you explain to DM your idea maybe they will allow you to switch it with a fighter bonus feat. If not you have to eat it. I'll use my current characters stats as an example, although a poor one at that.

Str 14
Dex 17
Con 15
Int 15
Cha 9
Wis 7 (ouch!) no spells but still get 3 devotions!

Human; Quick Trait(+10ft movement, -1hp level), Absent Minded(+1 knowledge checks) and can even add flaws if you're allowed for 2 extra feats at level 1.

[1]Rogue 1) BAB +0, SA +1d6 (feats; Able Learner, Dodge)
[2]Swash 2) BAB +1 (free feats; weapon finesse changed to Power attack)
[3]Cloistered Cleric 1) BAB +0 Knowledge Devotion, Chaos Devotion, Travel Devotion (feat; craven)
[4]Fighter 1) BAB +1Hit and Run variant(+2 combat initiative, dex to damage on any SA(same prereqs)(bonus feat: Mobility)
[5]Rogue 2) BAB +1, Evasion
[6]Rogue 3) BAB +1, SA +2d6 (ACF penetrating strike[1/2 SA damage to normally immune creatures)(feat;spring attack)
[7]Swash 2) BAB +1, Grace +1,
[8]Fighter 2) BAB +1 (bonus feat: cleave)
[9]Swash 3) BAB +1 (feat;daring outlaw)SA +3d6
[10]Swash 4) BAB +1 SA +4d6

Build is all over the place and again in any order you want and hope for no exp penalty. At level 9/10 you'd choose between swashbuckler insightful strike for more int to damage, or ccleric for lore of the gods spell to increase your knowledge checks. Only need 12 wis and cleric level 3 to do. If no exp penalties for multiclassing it's probably best to stop at cleric 1 and just go swash for sneak attack and higher BAB/HPs. Your choice. Idea is huge stacked damage on most attacks, and even more on sneak attacks. Get your knowledge skills as high as you can for checks before attack round. Able learner, lore of the gods, absent minded, collector of stories and any skill points you can spare. Knowledge devotion allows only 1 knowledge skill, however you can pump your points into those skills while it's still just the domain since they're all class skills at that time, then change to devotion after. It's legal if not a bit cheesetastic. (Thanks Curmudgeon)

At level 10 you'd still have +8 BAB which is good. If you have at least 14 str you'd get +2 to hit, so that's +10 legit. Then with knowledge devotion you roll at each encounter and at a minimum get +1 to hit and damage. If you get skills up a bit you might get some +2's or even +3's. Activate chaos devotion and roll the d6... This happens at every attack roll so either you get ac or attack/damage bonus. Minimum attack bonus is 1, 3 or 5 max and scales with character level. At level 10 it's d8 so with luck you could get +7 to hit and damage. It is as it says, rather chaotic but like gambling :P Thing is it lasts for 10 rounds which is probably enough for most encounters.

Use travel devotion to instantly get a full attack +SA on a surprise round, bounce back to safety with normal move. Then if you win initiative you can repeat the exact same move and be safe yet again. At level 8 you get the full two swings of the greatsword with +2d6 SA. That moves to +4D6 at level 10. You could probably do it earlier with the right combo, depends on when you take fighter and cleric levels though. Prioritizing hit and damage bonuses against knowledge skills and chaos devotion is a headache at this time of night hehe.

Spring attack is just for utility, but you could change out those 3 feats for anything. The movement possibilities with spring attack and travel devotion are awesome though. You could swoop in as a swift action and get a swing in. If creature dies in one hit then you cleave anything near it. Then you could with spring attack move to a monster 10 feet away and get your 2nd attack in as an SA, then move yet again. With 40ft movement that's pretty damn nice.

Example of level 10, 2 swing SA damage stacking with the minimum knowledge and chaos bonuses, +1/+1 respectively.Remember you'd have 2 stat bonuses at lvl 4 and 8 to put somwhere making this number a bit higher.

2d6+3(2h str bonus)+3(dex to damage)+2(insightful strike)+10(craven)+1(knowledge devotion)+1(chaos devotion) + 4d6SA x2!

That's a +22 minimum, plus the 4d6 SA rolls on EACH hit without even using power attack. And if it crits that +22 multiplies since it's number damage on the main die not SA. If you get lucky and get a high knowledge check (+3) and chaos check (+8) it has the potential for around 9 more for +31 minimum not counting power attack. Of course that's a rarity, but imagine the awesomeness of getting 2 hits with +32 and at least one of them critting, then adding SA die. If your chaos/knowledge checks are high you could really afford to pump up the power attacks before you attacked and get this even even larger.

Sorry for the long post but I was building this in my head and partially wrote it out for myself. Remember that if you can get cha to 10 you'd get 3 turning attempts to refuel devotion feats. Chaos takes all 3, travel takes 2. If you didn't go for spring attack or took some flaws you could easily do extra turning. Or take undeath domain for the extra turning and just pick up the chaos feat at some point normally. I chose chaos for the potential(and my alignment), though perhaps strength domain or something else may be more useful. Also if you go higher with cleric and had enough wis you could easily bump up your attack bonus with buffs. Also at that level you'd probably have str/dex enhancing items along with party member buffs to really take it through the roof. I'd think str items/buffs would be the most efficient for attack bonus and 1.5x 2h bonus.

If anyone suffers though this what do you think? Too random or maybe doable? Would be a crack up to play and always fun to take those chaos and knowledge checks. I could have my math wrong as well so if I did please point it out. To be honest most of my D&D stuff has been CRPG and I've only recently started the real thing. But with CRPGs I was obsessed with min-maxing things and was so shocked that it's more rampant in the PnP version :)

One last note; You could probably lose swash altogether and go straight rogue instead. You'd lose the insightful strike damage, 1 BAB and the HP. But you wouldn't have to worry about exp penalty and beg your DM to replace weapon finesse. Even more important you'd gain a ton more skill points for knowledge checks, skill tricks and your roguish skills. You could front load fighter and rogue for faster feat progression, then just go full rogue at the end. Like rogue/fighter/cleric/rogue/fighter/rogue the rest. No exp penalty and then add a PrC somewhere even before 10 that fits in and continues SA progression with maybe some extra flavor or hps. ToB would be great to use but if DM thinks it's overpowered maybe at least you could add the martial stance and maneuver feats for a little flavor. If mine says no to ToB classes I'll still ask for this. Also TWF with spiked armor, or snap kick could be even more deadly with all that extra damage per hit.

The optimizations are so endless, but I don't think this is cheesy comparitively. It's so chaotic what DM would say no?

[faceroll]

Use the elven greatsword, it's finessable, and TWF with snap kick or armor spikes.

[vageta31]

What source is that from? That would fix a lot of issues and allow dex to be pumped for the Rogue allowing higher power attack exchange.

Edit: I assume you mean Elven Court Blade? Exotic, 1d10 18/20x2 from Races of Stone? Hmm I bet DM might allow it if only for the crazy build and weapon finesse option.

[KillianHawkeye]

tl;dr

But the phrase is spelled "Hail Mary" btw.

EDIT: Oh yeah, I'm pretty sure that sword is in Races of the Wild, not Races of Stone. Since it's, ya know, the ELVEN courtblade, so it's probably in the book about elves.

[vageta31]

I knew I shouldn't be writing this late at night hehe. And yes youre right about the book as well, though that's one of those books my DM probably wouldn't allow. Though maybe just the weapon could be possible as we are in FR and there's lots of elves. Makes my idea even better, though I'm not sure how good it was in the first place...

I think the simplified Cleric 1/Hit and Run Fighter 2/Rogue x is probably best. A nice PrC class could wrap it up without getting too crazy.

[FMArthur]

Travel Devotion is nearly useless for surprise attacks - it requires a swift action to activate and a swift action to move afterwards.

TBH I think just a Mystic Ranger would be more straightforward without much loss. The Hunter's Eye spell from PHII gives them Sneak Attack, and they can use Spell Compendium's Lion's Charge to full attack on a charge or Rhino's Rush to double charge damage; the Mystic Ranger variant gets more of these spells and much earlier than normal. They can also legitimately choose a Combat Style that favours two-handed weaponry, granting Power Attack, Improved Sunder and Great Cleave, or another that grants Ride-By Attack, Spirited Charge and Trample. You could even take Swift Hunter and 3 Scout levels if you like. It's still a lot simpler.

Mystic Ranger and expanded Combat Styles are Dragon Magazine material though (but are good, quality examples of it).

[Jayabalard]

con should probably be the highest attribute if your goal is to be Hale.

[sonofzeal]

Why bother with an exotic weapon simply to finesse a greatsword? No rule says that Rogue have to be high-Dex low-Str. In point of fact, they don't have any class feature that feeds directly off Dex besides Evasion, and they have good Ref save even if Dex is lower. The only major reason to go high Dex on a Rogue is to qualify for TWF, but if you're not going down that road then you can drop it.

Higher Str will save you feats (Weapon Finess and EWP: Elven Courtblade), and give you greater damage on every attack. Take a one-level dip in anything with full Martial proficiency, and you're good. Barbarian's nice, for decent skillpoints and high HD and fast movement and Rage. Anything ToB is also good if you have access to that, and both Swordsages and Warblades can get "Sudden Leap", removing the need to dip Cloistered Cleric for Travel Devotion. Additionally, Swordsage open up "Assassin's Strance" which will give you an extra 2d6+2 Sneak Attack (after Craven), and both will give you powerful Maneuvers to add on the top of you Hail Mary attack; "Rabid Wolf Strike" being a nice low level one, but any of the charging maneuvers from White Raven are good too. Oh, and don't forget "Emerald Razor", for when you absolutely can't afford to miss!

[vageta31]

Anything ToB is also good if you have access to that, and both Swordsages and Warblades can get "Sudden Leap",

If I knew ToB was in for sure I'd just take 3 Rogue levels, 2 fighter for the feats and call it a day going ToB in the rest. This was a stab at a more core way of doing it. I agree about the EWP waste, I'm thinking if DM says no to ToB classes or that weapon he may allow me to use weapon finesse on a normal greatsword. Maybe I can make a deal with him about knowledge checks and just making it a straight number that I don't even roll for everytime as a trade off. Like up until level 8 or so I just get a +1 bonus, then later it boosts to +2 and we don't have to deal with the roll. I lose the chance for a lucky bonus but the finesse on greatsword would be worth it. If I read right with knowledge devotion the minimum is always at least a +1 as long as you've got 1 point in the required skill.


Travel Devotion is nearly useless for surprise attacks - it requires a swift action to activate and a swift action to move afterwards.

I guess that's true, it's not the best for the surprise round itself. However anyone after that it's fair game. I was thinking as long as I activated it before DM initiated the actual round I'd get it for free. Regardless it's still highly useful throughout the rest of the battle. I'd rather have the shadow jaunt maneuver group but not sure if that's going to happen.

And the whole point of cloistered cleric was for the free knowledge attack bonus to make up for the lower str of a rogue, not to mention the whole "chaos devotion" thing making it a chaotic style. It's random, but that's why I like it. You get to roll before you make your attack roll so you can decide strategy based on that roll. Get a high attack bonus, just swing away full attack and swift action travel your ass out of harm's way and not get hit. If you roll high AC then just stand and fight and figure you won't get hit anyways.

Also one thing about power attack... when do you have to declare it? Realistically should be at any attack as you're basically deciding how hard to swing which affects accuracy, which in a human would be instantaneous. If that's the case you could roll your chaotic dice, and if you get a high attack bonus just add that into your power attack exchange to up the damage even more. Rolled a +5 attack? Invest it into power attack and reap the 10 damage.

[Cartigan]

If I was going to wield a Two-Handed Weapon, I would pump strength.

You hurt people, then when you are sneaking attacking, you REALLY hurt people.

[dextercorvia]

Here's a link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-16448%20%3C/index.php?t-152880.html) to my attempt at this concept. I got some good advice.

[Zaq]

If you want to be hale (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hale), you'll need to pump your CON up as high as it will go. Try to get immunity to diseases somehow. Warforged or dwarf would be good choices for races. Improved Toughness might be worth your time, if it's that important to you. You might also look into Steadfast Determination, Great Fortitude, Diehard, or even a few instances of Shape Soulmeld, like for the Strongheart Vest, Dragon Mantle, and Vitality Belt. A rogue's low HD and low Fort save might get in the way of being hale, but if you work hard to overcome it, I'm sure you'll find a way.

In other words, learn to spell. It's really not a hard thing to do. Please.

[Daftendirekt]

Your DM must be strict as hell if he doesn't allow RotW or RoS. Neither has anything that I'd call broken, except maybe whisper gnome. Also, every time you mentioned the exp penalty, all I could think was "Who the **** actually enforces that?"

If your DM does, I'm glad I'll never play under him. Sounds terrible.

[The_Jackal]

I'm not really convinced this is going to be any more effective than a greataxe crit-centric power attack build.

[Cartigan]

I'm not really convinced this is going to be any more effective than a greataxe crit-centric power attack build.
Exactly, do both.
Rogue/Barbarian/(Is there a complimentary PrC here?)

[vageta31]

I never assumed this would be better than a standard power attack build. Point is I decided to be the party rogue and must at least at some level keep up some of my Rogue skills. I like rogues but just don't like the idea of following the "norm" that's expected. I don't expect this to be the perfect character, just something different and comparible. I could have take Rogue/Fighter with high str and go spiked chain and call it a day.

You're right about DM allowing certain things thinking overpowered. I will talk with him tonight about "fairness" and explain to him some of the most broken things are in the PHB itself. Spiked chain build is pure PHB. Druids, Clerics and Wizards are PHB. Persistent spell divine power is fully legal. I'm going to try to convince him that nothing I do with my Rogue could ever match those kinds of things. If not maybe I could just multiclass into something nasty that's "legal" and prove a point.

Hale was a misspelling late at night :P Supposed to be "hail" hehe. And again chaotic devotion may not be the best choice, but it fits my style and none of the possible rolls are "bad". Just less optimal. Roll a 6 for extra ac, then stand toe to toe. Roll a 5, pump it into power attack and do massive damage. That part is just for fun and as I said is kind of like gambling. Get lucky and reap the benefit, lose and you don't gain much but again you don't really lose...

[Shyftir]

Nightsong Enforcer is pretty solid for a barbarian/rogue combo I have a friend doing it right now. Of course that will step away from this pure damage build to add a more tactical flavor.

[Cartigan]

Persistent spell divine power is fully legal.
And significantly less powerful without cheese.

[sonofzeal]

If I knew ToB was in for sure I'd just take 3 Rogue levels, 2 fighter for the feats and call it a day going ToB in the rest. This was a stab at a more core way of doing it. I agree about the EWP waste, I'm thinking if DM says no to ToB classes or that weapon he may allow me to use weapon finesse on a normal greatsword. Maybe I can make a deal with him about knowledge checks and just making it a straight number that I don't even roll for everytime as a trade off. Like up until level 8 or so I just get a +1 bonus, then later it boosts to +2 and we don't have to deal with the roll. I lose the chance for a lucky bonus but the finesse on greatsword would be worth it. If I read right with knowledge devotion the minimum is always at least a +1 as long as you've got 1 point in the required skill.

I still don't get why you're so sweet on Weapon Finesse. I mean, even with your stats the way they are, it's still just a +1 to hit, functionally identical to the much-maligned Weapon Focus. Why is it worth the feat slot and the bother of pestering your DM for a houserule? Why not just shift points into Strength, save yourself a feat and a houserule, and get yourself more damage on every hit into the bargain?




Also, re:fairness... he's banning ToB but allowing Complete Champion? Seriously? I love ToB and I refuse to sully my hands with CC. Something's bizarre here.

[vageta31]

Well truthfully he's new to DMing and probably has his hands full with me. I'm thinking weapon finesse would allow me to boost my dex for AC with light armor and such and boosting my rogue skills. Otherwise I really don't care either way. Agreed why bother unless he limits me on other things and I try to find a medium.

[sonofzeal]

Well truthfully he's new to DMing and probably has his hands full with me. I'm thinking weapon finesse would allow me to boost my dex for AC with light armor and such and boosting my rogue skills. Otherwise I really don't care either way. Agreed why bother unless he limits me on other things and I try to find a medium.
The difference between your Str and Dex is not big enough for Weapon Finesse to be worthwhile. If you can get Shadow Blade, you can drop Str entirely, maybe trade it for that 7 in Wis, and become more effective overall. But Shadow Blade doesn't get 1.5x from twohanded.

Even if you really can't afford to trade Dex and Str, then I'd still recommend against Weapon Finesse. A +1 to hit is not worth a feat, not when you can take Martial Study: Emerald Razor, or Leap Attack, or something along those lines.

[vageta31]

I agree, may not be worth it. Also I can't find any information about the blade including cost, etc... Must be somewhat rare blade in most campaigns. However doesn't shadow blade only work with weapons of the shadow hand discipline or is it all weapons? If only greatsword was shadow hand I'd totally want to make a swordsage with a 2h.

[aquaticrna]

if the flavor of a guy with a huge sword sneak attacking the people from no where ghost faced killer is basically that (flavor wise)

[sonofzeal]

I agree, may not be worth it. Also I can't find any information about the blade including cost, etc... Must be somewhat rare blade in most campaigns. However doesn't shadow blade only work with weapons of the shadow hand discipline or is it all weapons? If only greatsword was shadow hand I'd totally want to make a swordsage with a 2h.
"Shadow Blade" is a feat, not a weapon. Or are you talking about the elven courtblade? That one's closed game content, so you'll have to have access to the book in question.

[vageta31]

I know it's a feat, perhaps I worded it wrong:


SHADOW BLADE
In the course of your training in the Shadow Hand discipline,
you learn to use your natural agility and speed to augment
your attacks with certain weapons.
Prerequisite: One Shadow Hand stance.
Benefit: While you are in a Shadow Hand stance and
attack with one of the discipline’s preferred weapons, you
can add your Dexterity modifier as a bonus on melee damage
for attacks made with the weapon.
Special: Shadow Blade can be used in place of Weapon
Finesse to qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other special
ability. If this substitution allows you to gain a benefi t that
normally applies to all fi nesse weapons (those described in
the Weapon Finesse feat description), it instead applies only
to the Shadow Hand discipline’s preferred weapons

Greatsword isn't a shadow hand preferred weapon thus it wouldn't get the dex bonus. Also I have access to RoD but I can't find what section the sword is in the book.

[vageta31]

if the flavor of a guy with a huge sword sneak attacking the people from no where ghost faced killer is basically that (flavor wise)

The class does look good, but it's evil only unfortunately.

[The Gilded Duke]

Interesting point about Craven giving a flat damage bonus. If you were to sneak attack with say a lance, would the Craven damage bonus be multiplied when using a lance?

Would be a bit feat intensive... but you can sneak attack flanked opponents. Flanking can be a lot easier to get sometimes then making someone flat footed.

Human Fighter 2/Lion Totem Barbarian 1/ Rogue 17
Feats:
1. Able Learner (to keep ride as class skill)
Human: Abberant Blood : Bulging Eyes is a fun one
Fighter: Mounted Combat
Fighter 2: Ride By Attack
3. Inhuman Reach
6. Craven
9. Combat Reflexes
12. Vexing Flanker.
15. Adaptable Flanker
18. Spirited Charge


The key is Inhuman Reach + Adaptable Flanker
Inhuman Reach gives you 10 foot reach, using a lance doubles the reach.
With Adaptable Flanker, set your flanked from square to be on the other side of the monster.

You then flank with your own mount and get +4 on your attacks.
3 lance attacks on a charge 9d6 sneak attack +17 damage each from craven.
3x damage on mounted lance charges.

A simpler build would be a strength based rogue with a reach weapon, maybe putting a feat into spiked chain and Adaptable Flanker. That would make it much easier to flank every round, without having to worry about tumbling into position.

[FMArthur]

When you charge someone you must move to the closest space from which you can attack your opponent. Meaning you attack them at the very edge of your reach.

[herrhauptmann]

I know it's a feat, perhaps I worded it wrong:



Greatsword isn't a shadow hand preferred weapon thus it wouldn't get the dex bonus. Also I have access to RoD but I can't find what section the sword is in the book.

Are you looking for a greatsword in races of destiny?? :smallconfused: If you're looking for that elven courtblade still, it should be in races of the wild.

Also, the DM is new to DMing, and has his hands full trying to manage you? Easy answer. Don't break the game. Don't try to eke out every possible advantage you can. If he's new, he'll have a hard time balancing fights when everyone makes a character as WotC intended. That includes snagging the chaos and travel devotions with a more powerful version of an already powerful class.
It'll get much worse when you're rolling a fistful of d6 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=156350).

[ffone]

The Hit and Run variant Fighter will NOT give Dex to damage on all sneak attacks. Its trigger is flat-footedness, which is NOT the same as being denied Dex to damage.

Usually, the former is a subset of the latter. If the character has already acted in combat but you are invisible, for example, he's denied Dex but not flat-footed.

And of course flanking is different.

That said, if you're a sneak attacker with any fighter levels, the variant is still a no brainer over regular fighter. IIRC it just loses heavier armor and shield profs, so for the many fighters who use light armor anyway, it's arbitrage.

[subject42]

I know it's a feat, perhaps I worded it wrong:



Greatsword isn't a shadow hand preferred weapon thus it wouldn't get the dex bonus.

It would be pricey, but an aptitude greatsword would qualify, wouldn't it?

[true_shinken]

It would be pricey, but an aptitude greatsword would qualify, wouldn't it?
Just get a Greatsword of Graceful Strikes if you feel like spending that much gold.
At least it's not cheesy like abusing an editing mistake.

[Boci]

Just get a Greatsword of Graceful Strikes if you feel like spending that much gold.
At least it's not cheesy like abusing an editing mistake.

Using weapong aptitude to get dex to damage for a feat on a greatsword isn't really that cheesy either. Certainly not like lightening mace.

[sonofzeal]

Using weapong aptitude to get dex to damage for a feat on a greatsword isn't really that cheesy either. Certainly not like lightening mace.
And still not as good as going with a Strength focus, as you're spending two feats, a tone of gold, and not getting that 1.5x bonus from two-handing.

[subject42]

Just get a Greatsword of Graceful Strikes if you feel like spending that much gold.
At least it's not cheesy like abusing an editing mistake.

What's the editing mistake, exactly?

I've only ever seen aptitude weapon used once in game, and that was for an invisible blade with quick draw, a goliath greathammer, and an extremely expensive item of quickened greater mighty wallop. While hilarious, it didn't seem too bad.

[vageta31]

What exactly is weapon aptitude?

Also good point on the flat-footed requirement. I get mixed up and always assume denied dex to ac = flat footed. Flat footed obviously is anytime before they take their first action, which means at least I get the extra dex damage in surprise/initiative rounds. But what other times quality? Flanking simply makes them lose dex bonus, I guess same as invisibility? As was mentioned thought it's still a no brainer for a rogue fighter since I gain the +2 initiative for free, get some dex damage at least during opening round(s) and lose nothing I needed.

And no I do not want to break the game, but since we know a cleric and wizard(both in the party) from PHB alone are devistatingly powerful at higher levels, I feel there's nothing I could truly do any worse than they're capable of. I guess that's what's bothering me... I know what is possible with them, yet we're worried about a rogue taking a few optimized choices. Guess if I die I could always roll a druid and go nuts, maybe then the optimized rogue wouldn't sound so horrible :P

I can't help it, it's just in my nature. And since I'm probably the only one in the group truly researching this stuff I can't help but want to have my guy be better than a plain vanilla rogue. I thought maybe this variant would be a cool idea that wasn't broken. My guy is 5'9", I love the idea of him walking around with a sword as big as him and just wrecking havoc on things with a chaotic style. Key being sometimes it'd be downright nasty, and other times much less effective. It's not only about power, I think it'd be fun to roleplay.

So in the end, regardless of the effectiveness of the build, what is my best option to wield a huge sword as a Rogue? Use the greatsword with my free martial skill and not worry about weapon finesse? Take the EWP elven blade for style points and get my finesse? Some other option I haven't considered?

A quick note. My dex is at 17 and it's a no brainer to get it to 18 at level 4 for the +4 dex mod. I don't see myself raising my str much since it'll take 2 to get another bonus. Be awhile before I see items that can add much str, so the greatsword may become more ineffective as I level. Which is why I was thinking the knowledge checks, chaos devotion and such will help balance that out a bit.

Just thinking though, that a 1d10 18/20x2 2h sword is nothing to sneeze at. It's not a light weapon so I get my 1.5x damage, and if I got improved critical or a keen enhancement it would thus be 15/20x2(think that's correct) which is pretty crazy actually and would fit the chaotic idea. On an opening sneak attack with all my bonuses kicking it along with a crit, it would be fun, especially if I added cleave to the mix.

One more thing... assuming I scaled back and didn't want to truly break the game by taking things that could be overpowering... What would you suggest for this kind of build using mostly core and complete books? I could still take a normal cleric level and get knowledge devotion... cloistered just gives it for free and the devotion feats are in the complete series. It's in FR so those books are no doubt in meaning craven is legit, and even Hit and Run is possible because there are plenty of Drow in FR. I've tossed around normal TWF blades rogue, spiked chain rogue, master thrower rogue and this chaotic 2h rogue and I like the first option the least. We have a ranger with archery combat option so I don't want to be a thrower. I loved the spiked chain, but if I went that route he'd probably wished I went swordsage hehe.

To end this... we've tossed around the round robin style GM idea already because he obviously wanted to play. But then he made the choice to actually DM, however we've talked and he still would like to round robin when the time comes. Which means it's not just "him", it'd be me as well at some point. I'm the next likely candidate as I already know a ton more rules than the others. Hell I even made a custom DM screen for the campaign, bought a bunch of stuff including paizo's magnetic initiative combat board, a couple battle mats and other stuff.

Our biggest problem is when we made characters and started in a rush, we never set ground rules. Never mentioned what books were allowed or anything that was forbidden. 5 out of 6 of us work at the same company, so we'll just need to discuss what to do. All agree on what is allowed, how many books, etc... Then just go from there with a solid understanding. What I don't like, and correct me if I'm wrong, is the spell compendium essentially puts all of the good spells from different sources into one neat book. Whereas melee guys have to pick and choose from a ton of sources making it seem like we're over optimizing. Where's the book with all the best melee feats and variations?

[Urpriest]

What exactly is weapon aptitude?

Aptitude is a weapon enchantment from the Tome of Battle that lets you use weapon-specific feats for other weapons with that one. It was written to let characters use Weapon Focus and the like with things they don't have Weapon Focus in, but it gets silly with feats like Lightning Maces and Boomerang Daze.


Also good point on the flat-footed requirement. I get mixed up and always assume denied dex to ac = flat footed. Flat footed obviously is anytime before they take their first action, which means at least I get the extra dex damage in surprise/initiative rounds. But what other times quality? Flanking simply makes them lose dex bonus, I guess same as invisibility? As was mentioned thought it's still a no brainer for a rogue fighter since I gain the +2 initiative for free, get some dex damage at least during opening round(s) and lose nothing I needed.

Flanking doesn't deny anybody their Dex bonus to AC, it just allows sneak attacks. There are a bunch of things that make people flat-footed, but they're fairly scattered and tricky to summarize. How are you dealing Dex damage? Poison?

[dextercorvia]

He means Dex to damage, from Hit and Run.

[vageta31]

He means Dex to damage, from Hit and Run.

Yes, thanks for clarifying.