vageta31
2011-03-11, 04:30 AM
Just throwing around some ideas here as I'm bored, but I really like the idea of a Rogue with a greatsword. It seems to get the most out of sneak attack you're expected to do TWF, but when you have to move you only get one attack anyways the same as if you were wielding a 2h weapon. So I was thinking to go about a somewhat efficient way of making a build that combines the ability to sneak attack with a 2h weapon. Keep in mind this isn't an "optimized" build, but could be fun and still work if done right. First trick is to get your damage per hit as high as possible using other methods than just power attack. Second trick is to keep your to hit bonus high as possible since dex will still be important in light armor and no weapon finesse.
Problems are that it's a MAD build and you'd need good str/dex/int, along with good con for hps and hopefully not horrible wis/cha for later in the build. At least wis 12 and cha 10. Items can help at that point in the game.
Also movement is key so heavy armor is out. Build requires light armor for full movement speed, and since you're no Tank you'd still have to fight like a Rogue and stay out of harms way. I'm sure there are a ton of ways to optimize this using +LA races, templates and such, but for the sake of simplicity(and strict DM's) let's assume it's mostly core books, complete and a few other less esoteric. ToB, RoS, etc... are out. I'm going to throw in UA for one reason and I'm sure you know what that is. Different campaigns offer different ways to do it, but you'd have to find a way to get knowledge skills as class skills without eating up a lot of BAB with classes that start with 0 BAB. Able learner, educated, 1 level factotum, etc..
Build is in any order you want based on if you have exp penalty or not in your game and your feat priorities. Weapon finesse from swash is wasted, so if you explain to DM your idea maybe they will allow you to switch it with a fighter bonus feat. If not you have to eat it. I'll use my current characters stats as an example, although a poor one at that.
Str 14
Dex 17
Con 15
Int 15
Cha 9
Wis 7 (ouch!) no spells but still get 3 devotions!
Human; Quick Trait(+10ft movement, -1hp level), Absent Minded(+1 knowledge checks) and can even add flaws if you're allowed for 2 extra feats at level 1.
[1]Rogue 1) BAB +0, SA +1d6 (feats; Able Learner, Dodge)
[2]Swash 2) BAB +1 (free feats; weapon finesse changed to Power attack)
[3]Cloistered Cleric 1) BAB +0 Knowledge Devotion, Chaos Devotion, Travel Devotion (feat; craven)
[4]Fighter 1) BAB +1Hit and Run variant(+2 combat initiative, dex to damage on any SA(same prereqs)(bonus feat: Mobility)
[5]Rogue 2) BAB +1, Evasion
[6]Rogue 3) BAB +1, SA +2d6 (ACF penetrating strike[1/2 SA damage to normally immune creatures)(feat;spring attack)
[7]Swash 2) BAB +1, Grace +1,
[8]Fighter 2) BAB +1 (bonus feat: cleave)
[9]Swash 3) BAB +1 (feat;daring outlaw)SA +3d6
[10]Swash 4) BAB +1 SA +4d6
Build is all over the place and again in any order you want and hope for no exp penalty. At level 9/10 you'd choose between swashbuckler insightful strike for more int to damage, or ccleric for lore of the gods spell to increase your knowledge checks. Only need 12 wis and cleric level 3 to do. If no exp penalties for multiclassing it's probably best to stop at cleric 1 and just go swash for sneak attack and higher BAB/HPs. Your choice. Idea is huge stacked damage on most attacks, and even more on sneak attacks. Get your knowledge skills as high as you can for checks before attack round. Able learner, lore of the gods, absent minded, collector of stories and any skill points you can spare. Knowledge devotion allows only 1 knowledge skill, however you can pump your points into those skills while it's still just the domain since they're all class skills at that time, then change to devotion after. It's legal if not a bit cheesetastic. (Thanks Curmudgeon)
At level 10 you'd still have +8 BAB which is good. If you have at least 14 str you'd get +2 to hit, so that's +10 legit. Then with knowledge devotion you roll at each encounter and at a minimum get +1 to hit and damage. If you get skills up a bit you might get some +2's or even +3's. Activate chaos devotion and roll the d6... This happens at every attack roll so either you get ac or attack/damage bonus. Minimum attack bonus is 1, 3 or 5 max and scales with character level. At level 10 it's d8 so with luck you could get +7 to hit and damage. It is as it says, rather chaotic but like gambling :P Thing is it lasts for 10 rounds which is probably enough for most encounters.
Use travel devotion to instantly get a full attack +SA on a surprise round, bounce back to safety with normal move. Then if you win initiative you can repeat the exact same move and be safe yet again. At level 8 you get the full two swings of the greatsword with +2d6 SA. That moves to +4D6 at level 10. You could probably do it earlier with the right combo, depends on when you take fighter and cleric levels though. Prioritizing hit and damage bonuses against knowledge skills and chaos devotion is a headache at this time of night hehe.
Spring attack is just for utility, but you could change out those 3 feats for anything. The movement possibilities with spring attack and travel devotion are awesome though. You could swoop in as a swift action and get a swing in. If creature dies in one hit then you cleave anything near it. Then you could with spring attack move to a monster 10 feet away and get your 2nd attack in as an SA, then move yet again. With 40ft movement that's pretty damn nice.
Example of level 10, 2 swing SA damage stacking with the minimum knowledge and chaos bonuses, +1/+1 respectively.Remember you'd have 2 stat bonuses at lvl 4 and 8 to put somwhere making this number a bit higher.
2d6+3(2h str bonus)+3(dex to damage)+2(insightful strike)+10(craven)+1(knowledge devotion)+1(chaos devotion) + 4d6SA x2!
That's a +22 minimum, plus the 4d6 SA rolls on EACH hit without even using power attack. And if it crits that +22 multiplies since it's number damage on the main die not SA. If you get lucky and get a high knowledge check (+3) and chaos check (+8) it has the potential for around 9 more for +31 minimum not counting power attack. Of course that's a rarity, but imagine the awesomeness of getting 2 hits with +32 and at least one of them critting, then adding SA die. If your chaos/knowledge checks are high you could really afford to pump up the power attacks before you attacked and get this even even larger.
Sorry for the long post but I was building this in my head and partially wrote it out for myself. Remember that if you can get cha to 10 you'd get 3 turning attempts to refuel devotion feats. Chaos takes all 3, travel takes 2. If you didn't go for spring attack or took some flaws you could easily do extra turning. Or take undeath domain for the extra turning and just pick up the chaos feat at some point normally. I chose chaos for the potential(and my alignment), though perhaps strength domain or something else may be more useful. Also if you go higher with cleric and had enough wis you could easily bump up your attack bonus with buffs. Also at that level you'd probably have str/dex enhancing items along with party member buffs to really take it through the roof. I'd think str items/buffs would be the most efficient for attack bonus and 1.5x 2h bonus.
If anyone suffers though this what do you think? Too random or maybe doable? Would be a crack up to play and always fun to take those chaos and knowledge checks. I could have my math wrong as well so if I did please point it out. To be honest most of my D&D stuff has been CRPG and I've only recently started the real thing. But with CRPGs I was obsessed with min-maxing things and was so shocked that it's more rampant in the PnP version :)
One last note; You could probably lose swash altogether and go straight rogue instead. You'd lose the insightful strike damage, 1 BAB and the HP. But you wouldn't have to worry about exp penalty and beg your DM to replace weapon finesse. Even more important you'd gain a ton more skill points for knowledge checks, skill tricks and your roguish skills. You could front load fighter and rogue for faster feat progression, then just go full rogue at the end. Like rogue/fighter/cleric/rogue/fighter/rogue the rest. No exp penalty and then add a PrC somewhere even before 10 that fits in and continues SA progression with maybe some extra flavor or hps. ToB would be great to use but if DM thinks it's overpowered maybe at least you could add the martial stance and maneuver feats for a little flavor. If mine says no to ToB classes I'll still ask for this. Also TWF with spiked armor, or snap kick could be even more deadly with all that extra damage per hit.
The optimizations are so endless, but I don't think this is cheesy comparitively. It's so chaotic what DM would say no?
Problems are that it's a MAD build and you'd need good str/dex/int, along with good con for hps and hopefully not horrible wis/cha for later in the build. At least wis 12 and cha 10. Items can help at that point in the game.
Also movement is key so heavy armor is out. Build requires light armor for full movement speed, and since you're no Tank you'd still have to fight like a Rogue and stay out of harms way. I'm sure there are a ton of ways to optimize this using +LA races, templates and such, but for the sake of simplicity(and strict DM's) let's assume it's mostly core books, complete and a few other less esoteric. ToB, RoS, etc... are out. I'm going to throw in UA for one reason and I'm sure you know what that is. Different campaigns offer different ways to do it, but you'd have to find a way to get knowledge skills as class skills without eating up a lot of BAB with classes that start with 0 BAB. Able learner, educated, 1 level factotum, etc..
Build is in any order you want based on if you have exp penalty or not in your game and your feat priorities. Weapon finesse from swash is wasted, so if you explain to DM your idea maybe they will allow you to switch it with a fighter bonus feat. If not you have to eat it. I'll use my current characters stats as an example, although a poor one at that.
Str 14
Dex 17
Con 15
Int 15
Cha 9
Wis 7 (ouch!) no spells but still get 3 devotions!
Human; Quick Trait(+10ft movement, -1hp level), Absent Minded(+1 knowledge checks) and can even add flaws if you're allowed for 2 extra feats at level 1.
[1]Rogue 1) BAB +0, SA +1d6 (feats; Able Learner, Dodge)
[2]Swash 2) BAB +1 (free feats; weapon finesse changed to Power attack)
[3]Cloistered Cleric 1) BAB +0 Knowledge Devotion, Chaos Devotion, Travel Devotion (feat; craven)
[4]Fighter 1) BAB +1Hit and Run variant(+2 combat initiative, dex to damage on any SA(same prereqs)(bonus feat: Mobility)
[5]Rogue 2) BAB +1, Evasion
[6]Rogue 3) BAB +1, SA +2d6 (ACF penetrating strike[1/2 SA damage to normally immune creatures)(feat;spring attack)
[7]Swash 2) BAB +1, Grace +1,
[8]Fighter 2) BAB +1 (bonus feat: cleave)
[9]Swash 3) BAB +1 (feat;daring outlaw)SA +3d6
[10]Swash 4) BAB +1 SA +4d6
Build is all over the place and again in any order you want and hope for no exp penalty. At level 9/10 you'd choose between swashbuckler insightful strike for more int to damage, or ccleric for lore of the gods spell to increase your knowledge checks. Only need 12 wis and cleric level 3 to do. If no exp penalties for multiclassing it's probably best to stop at cleric 1 and just go swash for sneak attack and higher BAB/HPs. Your choice. Idea is huge stacked damage on most attacks, and even more on sneak attacks. Get your knowledge skills as high as you can for checks before attack round. Able learner, lore of the gods, absent minded, collector of stories and any skill points you can spare. Knowledge devotion allows only 1 knowledge skill, however you can pump your points into those skills while it's still just the domain since they're all class skills at that time, then change to devotion after. It's legal if not a bit cheesetastic. (Thanks Curmudgeon)
At level 10 you'd still have +8 BAB which is good. If you have at least 14 str you'd get +2 to hit, so that's +10 legit. Then with knowledge devotion you roll at each encounter and at a minimum get +1 to hit and damage. If you get skills up a bit you might get some +2's or even +3's. Activate chaos devotion and roll the d6... This happens at every attack roll so either you get ac or attack/damage bonus. Minimum attack bonus is 1, 3 or 5 max and scales with character level. At level 10 it's d8 so with luck you could get +7 to hit and damage. It is as it says, rather chaotic but like gambling :P Thing is it lasts for 10 rounds which is probably enough for most encounters.
Use travel devotion to instantly get a full attack +SA on a surprise round, bounce back to safety with normal move. Then if you win initiative you can repeat the exact same move and be safe yet again. At level 8 you get the full two swings of the greatsword with +2d6 SA. That moves to +4D6 at level 10. You could probably do it earlier with the right combo, depends on when you take fighter and cleric levels though. Prioritizing hit and damage bonuses against knowledge skills and chaos devotion is a headache at this time of night hehe.
Spring attack is just for utility, but you could change out those 3 feats for anything. The movement possibilities with spring attack and travel devotion are awesome though. You could swoop in as a swift action and get a swing in. If creature dies in one hit then you cleave anything near it. Then you could with spring attack move to a monster 10 feet away and get your 2nd attack in as an SA, then move yet again. With 40ft movement that's pretty damn nice.
Example of level 10, 2 swing SA damage stacking with the minimum knowledge and chaos bonuses, +1/+1 respectively.Remember you'd have 2 stat bonuses at lvl 4 and 8 to put somwhere making this number a bit higher.
2d6+3(2h str bonus)+3(dex to damage)+2(insightful strike)+10(craven)+1(knowledge devotion)+1(chaos devotion) + 4d6SA x2!
That's a +22 minimum, plus the 4d6 SA rolls on EACH hit without even using power attack. And if it crits that +22 multiplies since it's number damage on the main die not SA. If you get lucky and get a high knowledge check (+3) and chaos check (+8) it has the potential for around 9 more for +31 minimum not counting power attack. Of course that's a rarity, but imagine the awesomeness of getting 2 hits with +32 and at least one of them critting, then adding SA die. If your chaos/knowledge checks are high you could really afford to pump up the power attacks before you attacked and get this even even larger.
Sorry for the long post but I was building this in my head and partially wrote it out for myself. Remember that if you can get cha to 10 you'd get 3 turning attempts to refuel devotion feats. Chaos takes all 3, travel takes 2. If you didn't go for spring attack or took some flaws you could easily do extra turning. Or take undeath domain for the extra turning and just pick up the chaos feat at some point normally. I chose chaos for the potential(and my alignment), though perhaps strength domain or something else may be more useful. Also if you go higher with cleric and had enough wis you could easily bump up your attack bonus with buffs. Also at that level you'd probably have str/dex enhancing items along with party member buffs to really take it through the roof. I'd think str items/buffs would be the most efficient for attack bonus and 1.5x 2h bonus.
If anyone suffers though this what do you think? Too random or maybe doable? Would be a crack up to play and always fun to take those chaos and knowledge checks. I could have my math wrong as well so if I did please point it out. To be honest most of my D&D stuff has been CRPG and I've only recently started the real thing. But with CRPGs I was obsessed with min-maxing things and was so shocked that it's more rampant in the PnP version :)
One last note; You could probably lose swash altogether and go straight rogue instead. You'd lose the insightful strike damage, 1 BAB and the HP. But you wouldn't have to worry about exp penalty and beg your DM to replace weapon finesse. Even more important you'd gain a ton more skill points for knowledge checks, skill tricks and your roguish skills. You could front load fighter and rogue for faster feat progression, then just go full rogue at the end. Like rogue/fighter/cleric/rogue/fighter/rogue the rest. No exp penalty and then add a PrC somewhere even before 10 that fits in and continues SA progression with maybe some extra flavor or hps. ToB would be great to use but if DM thinks it's overpowered maybe at least you could add the martial stance and maneuver feats for a little flavor. If mine says no to ToB classes I'll still ask for this. Also TWF with spiked armor, or snap kick could be even more deadly with all that extra damage per hit.
The optimizations are so endless, but I don't think this is cheesy comparitively. It's so chaotic what DM would say no?