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View Full Version : [PF] The Action Economy: There seem to be very few items to assist with actions



harpy
2011-03-11, 09:36 AM
One of the areas of the game that I've noticed has received very little attention are ways to assist a PC in their use of the action economy.

Sure, there are options, such as Quick Draw or Quicken Spell, class abilities, etc.

However, there is very little in the way of items (be they magical or mundane) that give extra efficiency to a PC as they perform actions in combat.

I kind of find that unfortunate and tends to shift the system more towards a gamist orientation, rather than a simulation, because you aren't seeing mechanical benefits from the experience that we have every day with technology. That is, technology's major benefit is to make tasks more efficient.

The game system has a wide range of actions in the game that create an "action continuum":

Full-Round
Standard
Move
Swift
Immediate
Free

But this variation in efficiency isn't conveyed very much within the system itself.

Looking over the items in the game, I found very few that directly intend to improve the efficiency of a player's actions in a turn:


Scabbard, combat
Price 1 gp; Weight 1 lb.
Source: Adventurer's Armory
This scabbard is designed to allow you to remove it from your belt as a swift action when drawing the weapon it contains. Taking the Equipment Trick feat (see page 22) for a scabbard gives you additional combat options for using a scabbard. For the purpose of fighter weapon groups, a scabbard for a heavy blade is considered a hammer, and a scabbard for a light blade is considered a close weapon.

Wrist Sheath, spring loaded
Price 5 gp; Weight 1 lb.
Source: Adventurer's Armory
This item works like a standard wrist sheath, but releasing an item from it is an immediate action. Preparing the sheath for this use requires cranking the sheath’s tiny gears and springs into place (a fullround action that provokes an attack of opportunity).

Handy Haversack
Aura moderate conjuration; CL 9th
Slot —; Price 2,000 gp; Weight 5 lbs.
A backpack of this sort appears to be well made, well used, and quite ordinary. It is constructed of finely tanned leather, and the straps have brass hardware and buckles. It has two side pouches, each of which appears large enough to hold about a quart of material. In fact, each is like a bag of holding and can actually hold material of as much as 2 cubic feet in volume or 20 pounds in weight. The large central portion of the pack can contain up to 8 cubic feet or 80 pounds of material. Even when so filled, the backpack always weighs only 5 pounds.

While such storage is useful enough, the pack has an even greater power. When the wearer reaches into it for a specific item, that item is always on top. Thus, no digging around and fumbling is ever necessary to find what a haversack contains. Retrieving any specific item from a haversack is a move action, but it does not provoke the attacks of opportunity that retrieving a stored item usually does.

And that's about it, at least in terms of items that really are trying to shift an action a step along that action continuum.

There are other ways of deriving efficiency that are more layered into the system, but I'm just surprised at how little is out there that just speeds up the job that you're trying to do in that moment.

Are there other items I'm missing?

balistafreak
2011-03-11, 10:31 AM
Pathfinder has the Quickdraw Shield, from the APG - I think. It's a light shield that you can pop-on-pop-off as a swift action.

Note that you can hold an object in the same hand as a light shield. This makes it a useful piece of equipment for duelwielders/twohanders. Duelwielders can pop it on when unable to make a full attack - twohanders can pop it off when not making an attack action. Sure, it's only 1 AC, but hey, 1 AC.

Yukitsu
2011-03-11, 02:52 PM
Generally, you shouldn't make things that boost action economy. It's a dark road in turn based game design.

Boci
2011-03-11, 03:22 PM
There's the (in)famous belt of battle. 3 charges / day, spend a number of charges as a swift action, 1 charge for a move action, 2 charges for a standard action, 3 charges for a full round action.
The DFA's handbook mentioned some adrenaline shot from an eberron book I thing, cost a couple of hundred gold pieces, gave you an extre move action once in the 2 hours after taking it.
ToB had the maneuver granting items, so you could take quick silver motion to gain an extra move equivilant action in return for a swift action, or the dancing/raging mongoose for extra attacks.
Eternal wand of celerity will give you a standard action as an immediate action 2/day but then dazes you for 1 round. You can use a wand slot in a weapon to hold them in the same hand. Note that you will need the Rules Compendium to make this work, otherwise by RAW activating the wands is a standard action.

Ignore that, I was stupid and missed the PF bit. Was wondering why I'd never heard of Adventurer's Armory.

Tyndmyr
2011-03-11, 03:25 PM
I kind of find that unfortunate and tends to shift the system more towards a gamist orientation, rather than a simulation, because you aren't seeing mechanical benefits from the experience that we have every day with technology. That is, technology's major benefit is to make tasks more efficient.

It's a fantasy world, not a modern one. There is no particular reason to assume the existence of items that make you stab more rapidly with a sword.

I wouldn't call that simulationist at all.

Boci
2011-03-11, 03:27 PM
It's a fantasy world, not a modern one. There is no particular reason to assume the existence of items that make you stab more rapidly with a sword.

Weapon of speed? Do they still exist in pathfinder?


I kind of find that unfortunate and tends to shift the system more towards a gamist orientation, rather than a simulation, because you aren't seeing mechanical benefits from the experience that we have every day with technology. That is, technology's major benefit is to make tasks more efficient.

But magic items do that. Want to travel somewhere? Scroll of teleportation. Want to dig fast? Disintegrate/move earth. Adressing the problem directly like this, rather than generally buy giving you more actions makes it easier to balance. Just look at the threads duscussing the power level of belt of battle to see how much of a problem many people have with extra action granting items.

Psyren
2011-03-11, 03:32 PM
In addition to what Tyndmyr said, magic items don't need to wreck action economy to model technology's increased efficiency.

Consider a +4 rapier - by just holding one, I don't have to take a single fencing lesson to be as proficient as a swashbuckler. A wand of lesser restoration eliminates convalescence; combine with a wand of remove disease and you might not even need hospitals anymore.

All that is pretty simple stuff, we're not even getting into lightning-powered trains and elemental airships.

Tyndmyr
2011-03-11, 03:54 PM
Right. Just because I cannot be the Flash, thanks to my elite stripper training and extensive belt of battle collection...that doesn't mean the world is BAD at simulating things realistically.

Rixx
2011-03-11, 05:00 PM
It's the action economy breaking madness in 3.5 that made for house rules like "no more than three full round actions in one turn". The fact that Pathfinder's much smarter about not including such silliness is a strong point.

And it doesn't make sense from a "simulationist" perspective since nobody in a D&D world that takes itself seriously knows what a "move action" or "standard action" is.

Boci
2011-03-11, 05:16 PM
And it doesn't make sense from a "simulationist" perspective since nobody in a D&D world that takes itself seriously knows what a "move action" or "standard action" is.

Huh?

A standard action is the time it takes to

a. cast a spell
b. drink a potion
c. activate a magical item
d. attack once

A move equivilant action is the time it takes for

a. the average person to move 30ft
b. take a potion/scroll/lock pick from your belt

They wouldn't be called "X actions", but someone would have probably realized that it takes longer than three second to cast the average spell, and it seems to take the same time to attack once.

Ravens_cry
2011-03-11, 06:03 PM
Only if the D&D rules reflect the laws of physics within the universe being played. Personally, I think of it as an abstraction of the laws of physics of the world being played for the purposes of playing the game. If we magically went to Greyhawk or Eberron, we would find magic, elves, and adamantine, but combat wouldn't be like watching Dorkness Rising.

Tyndmyr
2011-03-11, 06:09 PM
They wouldn't be called "X actions", but someone would have probably realized that it takes longer than three second to cast the average spell, and it seems to take the same time to attack once.

Perhaps for someone new to fighting, but experienced swordsmen are notably faster.

Boci
2011-03-11, 06:20 PM
Perhaps for someone new to fighting, but experienced swordsmen are notably faster.

Meaning their attacks are more accurate, but they still take just as long to reliable make a proper attack (a standard action).

Salbazier
2011-03-11, 08:09 PM
Yes, experienced swordman is faster, they got more attacks in a full attack don't they?

When you are attacking with standard action, well that means you do not throw all of your effort to the attack. Maybe are trying to maneuver to new position or drawing an item from backpack. It truly makes sense if you find yourself took more time to find an opening to attack in such case. Or maybe you just took the time to deliver a stronger attack than normal ( Vital strike?)