[3.5] Erinyes Monster Progression (PEACH)

[Ursus the Grim]

Erinyes (Devil)
Erinyes were once celestial beings tasked with hunting down oathbreakers and liars. Their lack of compassion on behalf of the law proved to be their downfall, and they were cast into the Nine Hells. At first glance, an Erinyes appears weaker in combat than many players of that level, but she possesses potent abilities and defenses that make up for it. Erinyes are a good choice for players who want to play an attractive, evil woman that isn't a succubus and who want to whittle their enemies down with hit and run tactics and superior maneuverability.

Erinyes
{table=head]Level|Hit Dice|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
1d8|
+1|
+2|
+2|
+2|Feat, Subtypes (baatezu, lawful, evil, extraplanar), +2 Natural Armor, Dodge, Resistance to Fire 10, Damage Resistance 1/Good

2nd|
2d8|
+2|
+3|
+3|
+3|+2 Wis, +3 Natural Armor, See in Darkness, Skirmish (+2d6, +2 AC)

3rd|
2d8|
+2|
+3|
+3|
+3|+2 Str, +2 Cha, Entangle 3/day, Telepathy 100 feet, Damage Resistance 1/Good

4th|
3d8|
+3|
+3|
+3|
+3|+2 Con, +2 Dex, +4 Natural Armor, Fly 30 ft (Average), Summon d10 Lemures (25%), Skirmish (+3d6, +2 AC)

5th|
3d8|
+3|
+3|
+3|
+3|+2 Wis, Entangle At-Will, Mobility, Damage Reduction 2/Good

6th|
4d8|
+4|
+4|
+4|
+4|+2 Str, +2 Cha, +5 Natural Armor, Fire Immunity, Poison Immunity, Skirmish (+3d6, +3 AC)

7th|
4d8|
+4|
+4|
+4|
+4|+2 Con, +2 Dex, Resistance to Acid 5, Resistance to Cold 5, Damage Resistance 3/Good, Lesser Spell-Like Abilities 1/day

8th|
5d8|
+5|
+4|
+4|
+4|+2 Int, +6 Natural Armor, Fly 40 ft (average), True Seeing, Skirmish (+4d6, +3 AC)

9th|
5d8|
+5|
+4|
+4|
+4|+2 Wis, Damage Resistance 5/Good, Greater Spell-Like Abilities (1/day)

10th|
6d8|
+6|
+5|
+5|
+5|+2 Str, +2 Cha, +7 Natural Armor, Spell Resistance, Lesser Spell-Like Abilities 3/day, Summon Baatezu (full), Skirmish (+4d6, +4 AC)

11th|
6d8|
+6|
+5|
+5|
+5|+2 Con, +2 Dex, Damage Reduction 5/Good, Abyssal Assault

12th|
7d8|
+7|
+5|
+5|
+5|+2 Wis, +8 Natural Armor, Fly 40 ft (good), Greater Spell-Like Abilities 3/day, Skirmish (+5d6, +4 AC)

13th|
7d8|
+7|
+5|
+5|
+5|+2 Str, +2 Cha, Lesser Spell-Like Abilities At-Will

14th|
8d8|
+8|
+6|
+6|
+6|+2 Con, +2 Dex, Resistance to Acid 10, Resistance to Cold 10, Skirmish (+5d6, +5 AC)

15th|
8d8|
+8|
+6|
+6|
+6|+2 Int, Fly 50 ft (good)

16th|
9d8|
+9|
+6|
+6|
+6|Greater Spell-Like Abilities (At Will), Skirmish (+6d6, +5 AC), Abyssal Lightning[/table]


Racial Traits

Starting Ability Scores Adjustments: +2 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Con, +2 Cha. Erinyes are physically powerful, agile and tough. They posses a fierce beauty of their own.
Speed: Erinyes base land speed is 30 feet.
Darkvision: Erinyes can see in the dark up to 60 feet.
Automatic Languages: Infernal, Celestial, and Draconic.
Favored Class: Erinyes. The Best multiclassing choices for an Erinyes are Sorceror, Ranger, or Bard.


Class Skills
The Erinyes' class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Diplomacy (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Hide (Dex), Knowledge (any 2, chosen at first level) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Use Rope (Dex)

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the Erinyes monster class.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Erinyes are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, as well as their rope, but not with any armor or shields.

Feats: An Erinyes receives one feat at 1st level, and additional ones at 4th, 10th, and 16th level. After 16th level, it gains feats normally according to its character level.

Bonus Feats: At 1st level, an Erinyes gains Dodge as a bonus feat, even if she does not normally meet the prerequisites. At 5th level, an Erinyes gains Mobility as a bonus feat, even if she does not normally meet the prerequisites.

See in Darkness (Su): An Erinyes of 2nd level or higher can see perfectly in darkness of any kind, even that created by a deeper darkness spell.

Skirmish (Ex): Even before developing the ability to teleport, Erinyes are swift opponents who like to dash in and out of combat, using their momentum and mobility to deal powerful blows to their opponents and avoid retaliation. This functions like the ability possessed by Scouts.

Entangle (Ex): Most Erinyes at 3rd level or higher carry a stout rope some 50 feet long that entangles opponents of any size as an animate rope spell. The Erinyes may use this ability 3/day. At 5th level, she may use it at will. An Erinyes can throw this rope 30 feet with no range penalty.

Telepathy (Su): An Erinyes of 3rd level or higher can communicate with any creature within 100 feet that has a language. It is possible to address multiple creatures at once.

Summon Baatezu (Sp): Beginning at 4th level, an Erinyes can attempt to summon 1d10 lemures with a 25% chance of success. At 10th level, the Erinyes can either summon 2d10 lemures or 1d4 bearded devils with a 50% chance of success. This ability is the equivalent of a 3rd-level spell.

Lesser Spell Like Abilities (Sp): At 7th level, an Erinyes begins to use her spell-like abilities. Once per day she may cast minor image, and unholy blight. The save DC for unholy blight is equal to 14 + her Charisma bonus, the save DC for minor image is equal to 12 + her Charisma bonus. At 10th level, the Erinyes may use these abilities three times per day, and at 13th level, she may use them at will. Caster Level 12th.

True Seeing (Su): Beginning at 8th level, an Erinyes is continuously under the effect of true seeing, as the spell, with caster level 14th.

Greater Spell-Like Abilities (Sp): At 9th level, the Erinyes develops her more potent spell-like abilities. Once per day she may cast greater teleport (herself plus 50 pounds of objects only) and charm monster once per day. The save DC for charm monster is equal to 14 + her Charisma bonus. At 12th level, the Erinyes may use these abilities three times per day, and at 16th level, she may use them at will. Caster Level 12th.

Spell Resistance (Ex): An Erinyes of 10th level or higher has spell resistance equal to 11 plus its Hit Dice.

Abyssal Assault (Su): At 11th level, an Erinyes learns to control her innate teleportation ability and use it to catch an opponent off guard. She may expend one usage of her Greater Teleport spell-like ability to instantly move herself and her equipment up to 800 feet as a move action and make a single melee attack as an attack action. Logistically, she must be able to see her opponent or know his exact location in order for this to succeed. In most cases, the opponent is considered flat-footed. The Erinyes adds her skirmish bonus to damage and armor class when she uses this ability. If the Erinyes has more than one usage of Greater Teleport available per day, she must wait 2d4 turns before using this ability again.

Abyssal Lightning (Su): At level 16, the Erinyes is master of her own mobility. After using her Abyssal Assault ability, the Erinyes may choose to return to her previous location at the end of her attack as a free action.

Edit: Whoops, early post. Hang on.
Edit Edit: Okay, rest of post is up. Constructive criticism is requested.
Edit Edit Edit: Post has been updated with some changes, most of which were suggested, and no changes that no one suggested.
Final (?) Edit: A little more tweaking, but I think I've got it how I want it.

[Land Outcast]

First I'll point you to the Base Monster Class (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8024351&postcount=144) created at our beloved Homebrew forum...
I guess it has seen extensive critique, as most classes in that thread.

Something important about it is the full HD progression, which has always been -to me- the greates detriment when playing monsters as characters. (for example, a rogue level 16 with con +1 will have some 60 hp, while a 16th level eryinies with her ECL will end up with an average of 98 hp -Con bonus included, total of +6-... and then there's negative levels and base attack bonus, and saves... remember the Erynies is supposed to be an able combatant).

Still, in brief I'll comment on the class you've developed.

[Ursus the Grim]

First I'll point you to the Base Monster Class (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8024351&postcount=144) created at our beloved Homebrew forum...
I guess it has seen extensive critique, as most classes in that thread.

Something important about it is the full HD progression, which has always been -to me- the greates detriment when playing monsters as characters. (for example, a rogue level 16 with con +1 will have some 60 hp, while a 16th level eryinies with her ECL will end up with an average of 98 hp -Con bonus included, total of +6-... and then there's negative levels and base attack bonus, and saves... remember the Erynies is supposed to be an able combatant).

Still, in brief I'll comment on the class you've developed.

I saw the Erinyes posted there (using the pleasure devil art, right?) and the comments related to it. It took the flavor in a different direction, and the player fell in love with the monster as presented in the monster manual. I'd rather get them there.

I agree that the hit to the HD is important, but I don't think it hits it that hard. That +10 to Constitution over time yields about 5 bonus hit points per level, which is an average roll for a d8. With a Base Attack equal to her hit die, it isn't as likely to hit as, say, a fighter, but again, the ability modifiers kick in. If we use an elite array for each, That mere +9 BaB at 16th level goes up to at least +16 with a Str 25. A benchmark human fighter would probably have an 18 Str (without gear) at that level, giving him a bonus of +20. This is before feats and gear. I think that's pretty close. Sure, its no warblade, but its a bit better off than a rogue or spellcaster, and it will deal more dpr.

I know your post wasn't finished, and I'll respond to the rest of it when it is.

I am glad for your input. Don't take my response as shooting down petitioned criticism, I just want it to be clear if I've considered something.

[Land Outcast]

You've distributed abilities quite well I belive... Flying, immunities, summoning, spell resistance...

Nitpick: typo at first level Bab.

Yet you could perhaps give full telepathy at a sooner date, it isn't game breaking and is useful.

Also, maybe delay an additional level the increases in natural armor... or maybe not... they have precious little feats they won't be willing to spend in armor proficiency.

Perhaps you could also give damage resistance at a sooner date, I'd give it 3/ good at 7th, when the distance between HD and level becomes of 3 hit dice.

A note on spell resistance:
At 16th level (11+9=20) it will be almost useless, only kicking in 15% of the time.

Aside from my issue with Hit Dice, I think it is pretty well thought out.

[Zaydos]

That's actually no better than a rogue (Weapon Finesse and 18 Dex for +16 to hit) and less attacks per round, and sneak attack sends rogue's damage way higher.

As for the class itself, you might want to move some of the offensive abilities up a level or two (at-will entangling rope at Lv 2 is a little early, and even 1/day charm monster and greater teleport at Lv 5 is a little early), and quicken some of the defensive abilities a bit in their place.

Also you might want to grant natural armor and DR 1 point at a time instead of 2 points and 1 then 4 respectively.

[Ursus the Grim]

You've distributed abilities quite well I belive... Flying, immunities, summoning, spell resistance...

Nitpick: typo at first level Bab.

Yet you could perhaps give full telepathy at a sooner date, it isn't game breaking and is useful.

Perhaps you could also give damage resistance at a sooner date, I'd give it 3/ good at 7th, when the distance between HD and level becomes of 3 hit dice.

A note on spell resistance:
At 16th level (11+9=20) it will be almost useless, only kicking in 15% of the time.

Aside from my issue with Hit Dice, I think it is pretty well thought out.

Thanks for the catch. I was using a template and had to make some changes.

Point taken with telepathy and DR.

As for Spell Resistance, what would you suggest to fix it? Erinyes according to MM has an SR 20. That 15% assumes a 16th level caster (without spell penetration) which would generally be a single monster encounter for the party. I wouldn't want the big bad mage to be useless against the Erinyes, but I could see why you want a buff to it.


That's actually no better than a rogue (Weapon Finesse and 18 Dex for +16 to hit) and less attacks per round, and sneak attack sends rogue's damage way higher.

As for the class itself, you might want to move some of the offensive abilities up a level or two (at-will entangling rope at Lv 2 is a little early, and even 1/day charm monster and greater teleport at Lv 5 is a little early), and quicken some of the defensive abilities a bit in their place.

Also you might want to grant natural armor and DR 1 point at a time instead of 2 points and 1 then 4 respectively.

This is true. But I guess the point I meant to make was that comparing it to base player classes is apples to oranges, just for the sake of level adjustment. It may have the hit points of a rogue with the attack of a rogue, but that doesn't mean it should just be a rogue. In lieu of sneak attack, it gets fly, spell-like abilities, and massive ability boosts.

Would you suggest a 3/day entangling rope insertion or simply pop in the at-will at higher level? I was considering separating the sp abilities to give progression for minor image and perhaps entangle at a different rate than charm monster and teleport?

Also good point with DR and Nat Armor.

[Zaydos]

This is true. But I guess the point I meant to make was that comparing it to base player classes is apples to oranges, just for the sake of level adjustment. It may have the hit points of a rogue with the attack of a rogue, but that doesn't mean it should just be a rogue. In lieu of sneak attack, it gets fly, spell-like abilities, and massive ability boosts.

Would you suggest a 3/day entangling rope insertion or simply pop in the at-will at higher level? I was considering separating the sp abilities to give progression for minor image and perhaps entangle at a different rate than charm monster and teleport?

Also good point with DR and Nat Armor.

Yeah I actually agree, just wanted to let you know you were overestimating the melee capabilities.

I'd say make it 3/day at Lv 2 and give it at will a few levels later, and I agree seperating minor image (and maybe unholy blight) from the others and putting them on two different progression tracks like they did with most of the fiends in Savage Species.

[Land Outcast]

at-will entangling rope at Lv 2 is a little earlyThat's right... perhaps make it:
Level 2 Entangling Rope I: victim is considered to be threading difficult terrain.
Level 5 Entangling Rope II: victim is considered entangled.

even 1/day charm monster and greater teleport at Lv 5 is a little earlyI'm not so certain about this being too early, but if it is deemed so it could be changed to a "lesser" version having 1/day charm person and dimesion door...

---------------------------------------
Damage dealing potential: yep, that might be a problem, not only she has a small Bab pool for Power Attack, but also she might not hit if she uses PA...

[Ursus the Grim]

Okay, with the suggestions in mind, I put forwards the following proposed changes. Overall, I am scaling forwards the Natural Armor bonus and Damage Reduction and scaling back the spell-like abilities.

Entangle 3/day at 2nd level. At will at 5th level.

Telepathy 100ft at 3rd level.

Change Natural Armor Bonus progression to basically 2/3rd of level. Would cap out at +8 at level 12, one point at a time.

DR 1/Good at 1st level, increasing to DR 2 at 3rd, DR 3 at 5th, DR 4 at 7th, and DR 5 at 9th.

Lesser Spell-Like Abilities (Minor Image and Unholy Blight) 1/day at 7th level. 3/day at 10th level. At Will at 13th.

Greater Spell-Like Abilities (Charm Monster and Greater Teleport) 1/day at 9th level. 3/day at 12th level. At Will at 16th.

How does it look?

[Lord_Gareth]

Please, please my friend, ignore the Savage Species rules and give this poor monster one hit die/level.

[Gorgondantess]

First I'll point you to the Base Monster Class (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8024351&postcount=144) created at our beloved Homebrew forum...
I guess it has seen extensive critique, as most classes in that thread.

It most certainly has not. As a rule of thumb, anything credited to Oslecamo is of dubious balance, fun, playability and spelling.

[Land Outcast]

It most certainly has not. As a rule of thumb, anything credited to Oslecamo is of dubious balance, fun, playability and spelling.

:smalleek:Oh, well... that's good to be warned about at least. I'll look closer at things done by him then.

Couldn't help but notice you had some strong issues with Oslecamo... I hope you don't take offense if I feel your advice is biased up to a certain point.[/derail]

[ZeroNumerous]

I agree about throwing away the LA and giving the class d8 HD every level. Being an Erinyes is already crippling enough in that you don't get any class features, and taking away HD is just kicking someone while they're down for no reason.

[Hyudra]

:smalleek:Oh, well... that's good to be warned about at least. I'll look closer at things done by him then.

Couldn't help but notice you had some strong issues with Oslecamo... I hope you don't take offense if I feel your advice is biased up to a certain point.[/derail]

Yeah. Kudos to the guy for getting the project off the ground, but I think problems with his work are fairly apparent with just a glance-through. Compare 3 levels in Tarrasque (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9148817&postcount=1307) with 3 levels in Centaur (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7987339&postcount=91). That aside, it's worth stressing that Oslecamo's stuff predates any sort of review process or the like that you'd observe today. Simply put, in his era, if you posted a monster class, it went on the list. We're actually trying to fix that now, by updating classes from when he was in charge with ones that are actually reviewed and balanced.

On topic: If you insist on keeping the HD advancement the way it is (I don't recommend it, but to each his own), I'd encourage offering better stuff on the levels where you don't get an added HD. Like, bump Entangle up to 3rd, for example. Further, you list True Seeing at 6th and 8th levels on the table.

[Ursus the Grim]

I appreciate that I wasn't the only one who thought that of Oslecamo's submissions. I doubt mine is any better, and he obviously had a huge workload with that sucker.

While I would be willing to give the monster one hit die per level, I would be afraid this would make it overpowered. Levels of Outsider are pretty potent. Base attack as fighter, saves as Monk, skills as rogue. The player's last character (a kuo-toa monk I asked for help with) was severely weaker than the werebear barb and reach-exploiting dragonkin. Perhaps I owe it to her, eh?

If I fix the HD, what other adjustments should I make to balance it out, if any?

P.S. Thanks for catch with true-seeing. I'll have to check my notes to see when she was supposed to get it.

[Hyudra]

Well, I'm afraid my own opinions are biased, given that I'm one of the heads of the monster classes project and we've done away with some monster class standards in the name of balance and playability. Namely, on our end, we're doing the whole '1 HD per class level', less overall stat bonuses and not adhering 100% to the standards of the type (so every Outsider wouldn't get the combined package of full BAB, monk saves, rogue skills, etc.). So I'll strive to provide feedback without falling back on our own projects' standards.

Short of breaking away from the type standards, what you could do is severely cut down the stat increases. This'll help ensure the player is more in line with other PCs, and the stat bonuses are probably the easiest thing to sacrifice without losing flavor or versatility.

Also, I'll point out that you listed the class skills but as far as I can tell, you didn't detail how many skill points are given a level. Keep in mind that even if the class has roguish skill points per level, if her skills known list is that short she'll be put in the position of putting cross class ranks into her skills, which'll keep things more sane.

[Ursus the Grim]

Also, I'll point out that you listed the class skills but as far as I can tell, you didn't detail how many skill points are given a level. Keep in mind that even if the class has roguish skill points per level, if her skills known list is that short she'll be put in the position of putting cross class ranks into her skills, which'll keep things more sane.

I like the ability score decrease idea. A big thing for me is the flavor for the character, and a lot of times sacrificing ability means sacrificing flavor. Their skill points are equal to 8 per HD as per the Outsider type. I could probably cut down on the score boosts and she'd hardly notice. Now I need to figure out how much to cut the scores by in order to make it a 1 HD per level class.

[jiriku]

Me, I'm a purist, and if I play a monster class I want it to look exactly like the MM version when I finish it.

Couple things you can do:

Grant Con bonuses only on levels that don't grant HD. This smooths out the hit point progression. Grant more Con early and less Con later, for the same reason.

Figure out how many skill points she's losing because of delayed granting of Int bonuses. Parcel those lost skill points out and grant them as free extra skill points on levels that don't grant HD. Smooths out the skill point progression and also gives back something that you took away by delaying the Int gain.

IME, WotC guessed WAY high on level adjustment for most monsters, and if you're aiming for a Tier 3 kind of balance point, you could safely cut LA in HALF for most monsters. This critter is no exception. Really, as a 15-level class it's probably ok. It's essentially a flying rogue with no sneak attack and no stats.

Remember that masterwork studded leather armor and a masterwork light shield have -0 ACP. This means that nonproficient characters can wear and use them with no penalty. This character who lacks armor and shield proficiency can have a +4 bonus from armor and shield by level 2, and up to +16 at high levels with +5 mithril chain shirt and +5 mithril heavy shield. You might want to push some of that +NA back even further under the assumption that she'll be wearing light armor and using a shield.

You're smart to push the at-will special abilities all the way back. The two most game-changing abilities the erinyes has are at-will charm monster and at-will greater teleport.

[Ursus the Grim]

I’ve been crunching the numbers again, folks.

Frankly, I don’t understand why everyone is so vehemently against Savage Species and the core Level Adjustment rules. Are they perfect? Hardly. But in the case of the Erinyes, I think its reasonable. Now, before I begin, I am going to mention that the Erinyes is being compared to a human of an identical ECL and identical theoretical ability rolls.

Yes, they get only 9d8 at 16th level. Let’s assume that the player gets average rolls for each hit die. That comes to 45 hit points. But the increase of ten points to Constitution gets them an extra five hit points per hit die, for a total of 90 hit points. If spread over sixteen class levels, that comes to an average of about five and a half points per hit die. Meaning their hit points are about par for the course of a ranger or druid for their level. Of course, that’s not taking into account what the base score for Constitution was. That’s assuming a base score of 10. If they put a base score of 18 into Constitution. I find the results are generally 81 bonus points of constitution plus 45 average from rolling versus 64 bonus points of constitution plus 80 average from rolling. So with a Constitution of 28, the Erinyes gets a total of 126 and the ranger with a Constitution of 18 gets a total of 144. After looking over the math real fast, it looks like a base score that yields a +1 or lower will yield higher hit points than a ranger of identical ECL, but at a score of 14 or higher, the ranger gets a slight edge that increases proportionately to the amount of the initial base score.

Now, the base attack bonus thing. The fighter has a base attack of 16 at ECL 16, the Erinyes a mere 9. In a manner similar to the hit points, the ability scores go a far way to even this out. With a buff of +5 Str modifier, they’ll only be 1 point of BaB behind a fighter. It was mentioned earlier that the rogue has a similar attack bonus. But if you give the Rogue 18 to Dex, you have to give the Erinyes 18 to Str (or Dex, identical boost). Plus 10. Meaning the Rogue at 16 indeed has a +16 to hit, but the Erinyes is swinging with +18. Obviously, this is without other factors involved, most of which can be applied to both equally. Unlike the Hit Points, though, this will be the case no matter what the base score is, as long as the two examples get the same base score to their primary stat, the numbers will be similar, with the Erinyes really not that bad. (Weapon Focus notwithstanding.)

Saves. Base of +6 to each, which is slightly above “poor” for an ECL 16. But here come the ability scores to save the, er, saves. Both Fortitude and Reflex benefit from the massive +10 to their relative ability scores, bringing them up to just above “good”. The Will gets only a 4 point boost, making it exactly “good”. Same thing I mentioned before applies, essentially, if you keep the rolls identical, Fortitude and Reflex will be a point higher and Will will be equal to that of a character with “good” saves in each.

Tl;dr? I think the Erinyes is comparable to an ECL 16 character. While it won’t be as much of a powerhouse as a batman wizard, I think its special abilities are roughly comparable to similar classes. True Seeing? Greater Teleport? A fly speed? These are all potent abilities that it can use at will at level 16. Unholy Blight and Charm Monster are nothing to sneeze at either? Special abilities are much harder to balance out, and I think I may stick to the Savage Species-suggested method of doing this. I’m mostly looking to balance it within the confines of those 16 levels and have an end result that would be identical to the Monster Manual entry, if it had standard ability scores.

Now, I know base attack, saves, and hit points aren't the only thing a character is made of, but they're the easiest things to compare. I will, of course, listen to differing opinions. Whether or not I heed them is ultimately up in the air.

[Bloody Initiate]

The biggest problem with the Savage progressions that I always saw was that you are lagging in literal HD. Suddenly you're vulnerable to low-level effects that everyone else grew immune to 3 levels ago specifically by advancing HD. That's not the only problem, I just hate the idea of a 1st level caster dropping me with sleep at level 7. Consider also that a lot of high CR creatures have abilities that specifically automatically slaughter enemies of significantly lower HD, and suddenly +10 to all physical abilities sounds a lot less fun.

Whether you like it or not, one major thing that the community monsters project gets right is that HD = CR. The classes are built up to as many levels as the original monster's CR. In fact when I saw this thread I started building a level 8 Erinyes, because aside from teleporting the original Erinyes is a level 8 character.

[Lord_Gareth]

Additionally, the Eryines here lacks a role. She can't cast, she doesn't sneak attack, she can't fight, and she doesn't heal. A lot of the Level Adjustment that WotC added to their monsters was to prevent them from being used by PCs, since WotC envisioned most PCs as good-aligned humanoids. Stick around for a little while and you'll get a feel for what parts of D&D were designed by mistake and what parts were intentionally sabotaged. Savage Species falls firmly into the 'drug-addled mistake' end of things.

[Bloody Initiate]

Additionally, the Eryines here lacks a role. She can't cast, she doesn't sneak attack, she can't fight, and she doesn't heal.

The Erinyes is a Ranger. There isn't a lot to indicate its role, but I always saw it as a Ranger/Hunter.

That may seem odd with the lack of survival, but I focused on the archer role as well as the entangle ability when determining the role. The entry says "scout" which is also "ranger" without using the scout base class.

[Lord_Gareth]

The Erinyes is a Ranger. There isn't a lot to indicate its role, but I always saw it as a Ranger/Hunter.

Rangers also lack a defined role, which is further compounded by how much they suck.

[Zaydos]

It's a matter of optimization levels. If you're low optimization or core without optimized casters SS progressions are fine as is. If you're high to med optimization they start getting weak. Some are actually just plain too high, for example dragons are about 3 too high (I base this on the Dragon Cohort feat which grants a dragon as a cohort with its ECL reduced by 3; so an ECL = your character level +1 dragon as a cohort for 1 feat which is still worse than leadership). A lot of Tier 3 classes throw this further off because most of them are good straight out of the book without optimization and gain very little from optimization. I built an unoptimized, or optimized for good AC technically, crusader and a red dragon at LA 3 less than printed and ran them in the same adventure. The dragon was weaker than the crusader by a lot in combat but still able to contribute, and its non-combat abilities (flight) didn't get used. Even so it was a good acid test and said it was a decent fit.

So the question is what's your optimization level?
I'm sensing low (nothing wrong with that; my favorite games have been low or no optimization), with lots of fighters, rogues, etc. If so this looks good. Set Charm Monster at the same level a wizard would get it and have fun.

[Bloody Initiate]

Rangers also lack a defined role, which is further compounded by how much they suck.

If they didn't suck their role would be more clearly defined, but if you want to continue with "lack a defined role" I suppose you can rule out every class but fighter, wizard, cleric, and rogue. To me "role" is defined by whether you are useful or not, because the "traditional" roles are a load of crap. Most of the decent base classes published manage to be useful while they may or may not have an obvious "role."

What you need to do is obliterate the enemy while advancing the plot. If you can do these things then you are useful and you fill your "role" whether or not you can tell people exactly how you fit into the traditional paradigm.

[Lord_Gareth]

Then allow me to elaborate:

Rangers can go two routes: two-weapon fighting or archery. If the ranger goes two-weapon fighting, he must compete with a low AC, low hit points, and most importantly, sub-par damage in the extreme when compared to a rogue or even a fighter. Archery? The ranger is out-classed by fighters by a mile. Don't even bother.

The class features a Ranger gets emphasize stealth, but the ranger has no counters to a host of detection abilities and, again, lacks a way to meaningfully utilize that stealth. A Ranger gets spells, but never casts them, since the ones that don't outright suck are better off in wands or potions. A ranger gets an animal companion to soak damage for him, but no way to support them.

Soo...combat breaks out. And the ranger is outclassed by everyone, because he's tried so hard to do everything that he ends up incompetent at all of it.

[Bloody Initiate]

Then allow me to elaborate...

Allow me to elaborate:

I know rangers suck. It is not the fault of the ranger concept. The fact that WotC failed to properly support their own class does not mean the job is obsolete and impossible for anyone to attempt.

Also, the Erinyes in the MM has two-weapon fighting, she just doesn't have the two-weapon fighting feat and she doesn't follow everyone's preconceived notions about fighting with two weapons. She has a longsword and a rope. That's two weapons.

She also has a bow.

She's also mobile and has better perception support than other devils (True Seeing, See in Darkness), as well as some limited non-detection ability (Minor Image and skill ranks in Hide and Move Silently).

So what do you see? I see a scout. In core, who did WotC think was going to be doing all the scouting? Of course a few classes are supposed to be able to fill the role, but I'M looking at the RANGER.

Her entangle ability as well as the specific statement that she can lift foes within her rope suggest also a hunter role to me. After all, if you bind and enemy rather than just kill them you are a combatant with more options thanks to more purpose. Binding people is a good way to kill them for sure, but I see a character who will either kill you or retrieve you.

Just because WotC failed to support the concept does not make the concept cease to exist.

[Lord_Gareth]

Allow me to elaborate:

I know rangers suck. It is not the fault of the ranger concept. The fact that WotC failed to properly support their own class does not mean the job is obsolete and impossible for anyone to attempt.

Oh certainly not, but Rogue, Swordsage and Warblade replace rangers easily and with greater versatility, power, and truth to the concept.


Also, the Erinyes in the MM has two-weapon fighting, she just doesn't have the two-weapon fighting feat and she doesn't follow everyone's preconceived notions about fighting with two weapons. She has a longsword and a rope. That's two weapons.

She also has a bow.

Your point is interestingly made, and if her rope had a supporting mechanic that progressed or was stronger than animate rope (which is, well, a low-level spell - it drops off of being useful pretty quickly) I'd bow to it. As it stands, the Eryines has one melee weapon and a gimmick.

As far as her having a bow, archery is all about putting as many arrows into the air as possible in one round. The Eryines, at level sixteen, and put four into the air. Four. She's literally being outclassed at range by monks.


She's also mobile and has better perception support than other devils (True Seeing, See in Darkness), as well as some limited non-detection ability (Minor Image and skill ranks in Hide and Move Silently).

VERY limited abilities, and she also gains no advantage aside from flat-footed attacks from utilizing her stealth. This is also the Ranger's problem; why stealth if you can't do anything with it?


So what do you see? I see a scout. In core, who did WotC think was going to be doing all the scouting? Of course a few classes are supposed to be able to fill the role, but I'M looking at the RANGER.

Rogue/Wilderness Rogue and Swordsage have already been mentioned, but let me reiterate again - being able to scout is most valuable at low levels (when she barely can) and drops off of value as Divination becomes available. Granted, the Eryines can spend one of her precious feats on Mindsight, but she gets so few that investing in scouting like that is painful and incredibly restrictive.


Her entangle ability as well as the specific statement that she can lift foes within her rope suggest also a hunter role to me. After all, if you bind and enemy rather than just kill them you are a combatant with more options thanks to more purpose. Binding people is a good way to kill them for sure, but I see a character who will either kill you or retrieve you.

See aforementioned comment on the rope.


Just because WotC failed to support the concept does not make the concept cease to exist.

Certainly not, but Warblade and Swordsage are the new ranger, and their model is the one that I feel should be followed.

[Bloody Initiate]

Oh certainly not, but Rogue, Swordsage and Warblade replace rangers easily and with greater versatility, power, and truth to the concept.

I don't see your point. I acknowledged that the Ranger sucks.



As it stands, the Eryines has one melee weapon and a gimmick.

Sounds like a monster to me - most monsters actually. Are we talking about the MM entry or the OP's racial class?



As far as her having a bow, archery is all about putting as many arrows into the air as possible in one round. The Eryines, at level sixteen, and put four into the air. Four. She's literally being outclassed at range by monks.

So we are talking about the racial class. Ok, I already cited some of the flaws of SS progressions. This is another one of them. We aren't disagreeing.



VERY limited abilities, and she also gains no advantage aside from flat-footed attacks from utilizing her stealth. This is also the Ranger's problem; why stealth if you can't do anything with it?

Believe it or not, not being seen is useful even if you don't attack from stealth.

It DOES suck to be able to do nothing extra from stealth, I can tell you that from experience, but that's a problem with D&D, not Rangers. Sneak attack is a class ability rather than a universal advantage you gain from attacking from stealth, so EVERYONE who goes undetected gets sneak-attack cloaked casting envy because attacking from stealth is so lame.



Rogue/Wilderness Rogue and Swordsage have already been mentioned, but let me reiterate again - being able to scout is most valuable at low levels (when she barely can) and drops off of value as Divination becomes available. Granted, the Eryines can spend one of her precious feats on Mindsight, but she gets so few that investing in scouting like that is painful and incredibly restrictive.

If Mindsight is legal, she WILL spend one of her feats on Mindsight, and it will probably be the most precious one she spent.



See aforementioned comment on the rope.


See aforementioned comment on monsters.



Certainly not, but Warblade and Swordsage are the new ranger, and their model is the one that I feel should be followed.

Or perhaps build a new model, but this is a suggestion for the OP.

Also they're not "the new ranger," neither fills the role the Ranger was supposed to, but they do eclipse the Ranger, which is a different but equally belittling thing.

[Ursus the Grim]

Bloody
That’s something I will admit I hadn’t considered. Though it’s a very specific example, it is a problem. HD or die spells that don’t allow for saves and affect Outsiders would make short work. Granted, I think most high-CR monsters have extremely high HD anyway, but the seven hit die difference could definitely make a difference if the player runs into one. So there is one major achilles’ heel, but as we saw, its still solid to superior in terms of saves and attack bonus.

Regardless, a creature is more than hit die. I respect the community’s efforts to ‘fix’ monster characters and think most of what’s done has been impressive. But I don’t necessarily agree with it. Saying that they got “one major thing right” is as much opinion as me “liking it or not.” But I’m not trying to argue semantics. I’m not even really trying to argue.

Zaydos
Nothing too optimized. They’re pretty casual. We have a group of seven people, only one of which is able to optimize, and not everyone shows up at a game. We’ve got a Dragonkin Fighter, Werebear Barbarian, Half-Dragon Sorceror, a Kyton, and this one. Dragonkin and Werebear are pretty solid,

I’d say Tier 3. Fighter has solid armor class and uses flight and reach for cheap shots and attacks of opportunity. The Werebear does as one might expect, throw handfuls of d6s with the greataxe, add many points of strength, and shrug off damage. The Kyton has yet to really prove himself, though enchanted chains make him great for support and supplemental dps. The regeneration makes him pretty tough, too. The Sorceror? Well, aside from only being up to level 3 spells in an ECL 10 party, not bad somehow. She stays out of the way and supplements Lightning Bolts with her breath weapon. Actually some of you might have seen a thread about ‘fixing’ a Kuo-Toa monk. She gave up on the Kuo-Toa monk (because she took bad advice, she grappled things too big for her, etc). The monk was indeed noticeably weaker than the others, so I figure the rest of the Party is at least tier 4.

As for that whole discussion that criticized the ranger archetype and by extension the purported niche of the Erinyes, well, I’m not sure how to respond to that. I’m talking about balance, not effectiveness. At high levels, swordsage and warblade can nearly keep up with Tier 1’s. But you guys are addressing this on such a different level than the one I’m operating on here. I’m trying to keep things more or less core. Because, quite frankly, once you expand past core, there are an infinite number of “what if’s”. No class will ever be as good as [X] class is. I can definitely see what the two of you are driving at, and why you're saying it, but I don't want to discuss the fabric of game design.

[Lord_Gareth]

As for that whole discussion that criticized the ranger archetype and by extension the purported niche of the Erinyes, well, I’m not sure how to respond to that. I’m talking about balance, not effectiveness. At high levels, swordsage and warblade can nearly keep up with Tier 1’s. But you guys are addressing this on such a different level than the one I’m operating on here. I’m trying to keep things more or less core. Because, quite frankly, once you expand past core, there are an infinite number of “what if’s”. No class will ever be as good as [X] class is. I can definitely see what the two of you are driving at, and why you're saying it, but I don't want to discuss the fabric of game design.

Well, then, at least let me say this: your Eryines has monk syndrome, in that none of her abilities really synergize and none of them really follow a theme. Yeah, it's truer to the original monster, but nothing this girl gets is remotely close to a legit class feature, and that lack of iterative attacks really kicks her where she's down, stat boosts or no stat boosts.

[Zaydos]

Looking over dragonkin I'd put my money on a dragonkin fighter or werebear barbarian over an erinyes monster class. Charm Monster and True Seeing are the only big advantages over dragonkin and they aren't worth 5 LA. I'd reduce the LA by 2 or 3.

Wait do you actually have copies of their character sheets?
If you do the easy method is to acid-test the LA. Stat out an erinyes and compare it to the party members. If it's critically weaker knock off an LA or two, if it's far stronger add one or two, if it's neither you've got it.

[Ursus the Grim]

Well, then, at least let me say this: your Eryines has monk syndrome, in that none of her abilities really synergize and none of them really follow a theme. Yeah, it's truer to the original monster, but nothing this girl gets is remotely close to a legit class feature, and that lack of iterative attacks really kicks her where she's down, stat boosts or no stat boosts.

I completely understand what you're saying here.

The Erinyes in the monster manual is, as you put it, "a weapon and a gimmick." I mistook the gimmicks for being essentially equivalent to a class feature. Lack of iterative attacks didn't seem as much of an issue, because I expected her to pretty much move every turn anyway. The general theme is annoyance, or 'scout'. Moderately high mobility with weak attacks. But that's nowhere near enough.

[Lord_Gareth]

I completely understand what you're saying here.

The Erinyes in the monster manual is, as you put it, "a weapon and a gimmick." I mistook the gimmicks for being essentially equivalent to a class feature. Lack of iterative attacks didn't seem as much of an issue, because I expected her to pretty much move every turn anyway. The general theme is annoyance, or 'scout'. Moderately high mobility with weak attacks. But that's nowhere near enough.

Hey man, we were all new 'brewers once, ya learn and grow ^_^. Try choosing a theme and running with it.

[Bloody Initiate]

Imo she really is ECL 8. The True Seeing is sweet, for sure, but not broken at that level (I've had it as low as level 2, and it's awesome for sure, but it's self-only, which means you are useful for your perception ability but still only have as many actions as everyone else). The teleporting isn't even that broken, because once again it's self-only. Since no one else in the party can keep up with it, it just becomes a really cool toy that doesn't matter that much. You end up feeling awesome and having some unique utility, but you want to stay with the party as much as possible. Drop everyone in a bag of holding if you've got it and you save on travel costs/time, but still have to dump everyone out at the destination, making it less practical for ambushes than what the casters can do later.

The ability boosts seem crazy, but they're pretty fair for a warrior-type. Isn't one of the reason casters so completely outclass fighter-types that they can turn into something much bigger and stronger? It seems fitting therefore that the fighter-type should get bigger and stronger without the casters.

Charm monster is cool, but it's 4th level, which means giving it at level 7 or 8 is just fine. Give it 3/day at 7 or 8, gain more uses with more HD and then make it at-will later.

[Ursus the Grim]

Looking over dragonkin I'd put my money on a dragonkin fighter or werebear barbarian over an erinyes monster class. Charm Monster and True Seeing are the only big advantages over dragonkin and they aren't worth 5 LA. I'd reduce the LA by 2 or 3.

Wait do you actually have copies of their character sheets?
If you do the easy method is to acid-test the LA. Stat out an erinyes and compare it to the party members. If it's critically weaker knock off an LA or two, if it's far stronger add one or two, if it's neither you've got it.

Sorry, Zaydos. You posted as I was responding to someone else, so I didn't get to see it.

I don't have copies of their sheets, but I could probably replicate them pretty well, knowing their rough armor classes and gear choices, as well as how I had them roll scores. I wouldn't just pit them one against each other in any sort, because a character isn't just combat, but I could see how much the Erinyes lags behind.

Lord_Gareth: Though I'm opposed to trimming the fat on this one, what if I just added some muscle. Instead of making the Erinyes playable at level 8, why not make it playable at 16 by adding abilities? Specifically, I'm thinking of throwing in some version of the skirmish ability. This would supplement the damage, emphasize maneuverability, and make it hurt a little less to miss those extra attacks?

I was also considering a way to combine skirmish ability with a usage of Greater Teleport. As a full round, pop from one place, make a skirmish attack, and pop back to your original location? This sounds like the beginnings of proper class features that fits the flavor, but I don't know if it works.

P.S. Thanks for the encouragement, and I've seen the Harrowed and Color Wheel posts. I believe you know what you're talking about, but I reserve the right to disagree sometimes anyway.

[Ursus the Grim]

Okay, original post has been updated with some changes. Consider everything up until this point, erm, considered and judged by my standards. Which are kind of inconsistent, but if I'm happy, I'm happy. Try to convince me I'm not if you don't like what I did, it's possible.

Anyway, now I notice an ugly gap at level 15. Oh noes.

[Lord_Gareth]

Skirmish isn't a bad idea, but 4d6 points of damage isn't worth the investment. At all. There's a reason Scout is considered sub-par.

[Ursus the Grim]

You think a spike to the damage? The Erinyes has a lot of stuff the scout doesn't have, and as it is it is only one level behind the Scout in terms of skirmish damage.

I really don't know how much it should deal in order to be competitive at Tier 3 or 2.

[Lord_Gareth]

Scouts are generally considered t5. Unless you're ubercharging, melee either needs to stack dice (a la Sneak Attack) or throw down as many attacks as humanly possible.

[Ursus the Grim]

Okay, I beefed up Skirmish a bit, but I think I'm currently happy with it again. Thanks for the feedback.

[Delegreg]

I think you got a typo on the Lvl16 Skirmish, it is the same as Lvl14 (+5d6, +5 AC). Otherwise great job.

[Ursus the Grim]

Utilizing the Homebrew clause in the thread necromancy loophole, I'd figure I'd mention results.

Eventually, the class was presented as its seen here. We've had two sessions of playtesting with it.

In session one, the party was trapped in a sand storm as a purple worm attacked and swallowed the half-dragon sorceress on round two. The party suffered no navigation penalties because they followed the true-seeing Erinyes. No one but the sorceress was in any danger, and they took it down in turn three, after one round of stomach damage. The Erinyes, using skirmish, dealt about as much damage as the werebear. Though it occured to me that the dragonkin would have had an easier time flying in the sandstorm due to size, this never came up. Dragonkin didn't deal that much damage, unfortunately.

In Session two (the sorceress was absent), they came up against an advanced gynosphinx and a guardian naga. The werebear went toe-to-toe against the gynosphinx and won (mostly due to DR). The Dragonkin ended up trying to pinpoint the guardian naga, who was hiding with greater invisibility while hurling spells. The Erinyes would have been a great help to him, but she touched what I have loving dubbed the infamous "Insanity Hatch" a door to a ladder leading downwards. . . that happened to be protected by the gynosphinx's Symbol of Insanity. After gibbering maniacally for most of four rounds, I had to houserule that the Erinyes would not necessarily flee via teleportation, lest we lose the players NEW character after two sessions. After the werebear aided the weakened dragonkin against the naga, they forced the naga to reverse the Erinyes' state. At this point, the Dragonkin foolishly demanded a duel to regain his honor. After going invisible, curing itself, and then volleying more nukes, the Dragonkin went to negatives and the naga escaped.

I think the Erinyes is on par with the werebear in terms of damage, especially being able to move and deal that many dice. I fear the Dragonkin is falling behind due to lack of Damage Reduction. Overall, I am satisfied as the monster class is now, but I will still accept any feedback or suggestions.

[NineThePuma]

Hit the Dragonkin over the head with a book and tell him to stop being dumb?

Just kidding.

I don't have the time to read the class in depth, but I will say that I like it based on my skimming. =3

[Ursus the Grim]

Hit the Dragonkin over the head with a book and tell him to stop being dumb?

Just kidding.

I don't have the time to read the class in depth, but I will say that I like it based on my skimming. =3

Actually, the other players kinda teased him enough about it and now we've got a recurring NPC. It really wasn't that tragic. The next session may take place next Friday, and it will take place in closer quarters. It will be interesting to see how she stacks up when she doesn't have the room to fly and pick her targets apart.