Darth Stabber
2011-03-11, 05:15 PM
So looking at special forces and swat style tactics, how do we want to apply these to dungeon crawling. I'm just posting this thread to discuss the more nuanced approaches to ending the bad guy/saving the princess. I am speaking from a 3.x standpoint, but feel free to talk the game you want. And lots of this is applicable in most systems.
My thoughts:
First of all, you need to get all your fellow players to sign off on it. If someone is wanting to be a giant mechanus plate wearing one Paladin army, he is not going to work well with the rogue, ranger and beguiler who are set on this path. You need to talk with the other dorks and get them to go along with this idea. Don't pressure them, since this is a little outside normal D&D boundries they should feel free to play what they want with in the GM's allowances. You probably want to talk this over with the GM as well since this has serious effects on what type of encounters and overall theme the adventure will have.
Secondly, Once you have 3-5 dorks ready to form their own SOCOM, you need to plan roles and tactics. The standard roles of Tank, Skill monkey, Healbot/buffbot, and Arcanist don't fit as perfectly in this scenario. Skill monkey is to some extent everyone. Tank is of significantly reduced importance since your goal is to end fights quickly. Healing needs less focus (but is still needed), since A)Most People will be in d8 hit die or lower classes, and B)You are ending fights with speed and precision (meaning less damage taken). Your Primary Arcanist sees very little change, except his spell choices have different priorities, and his skill needs shift. Honestly we have new roles we consider, and one guy can fill more than one role, and sometimes more than one guy can work together to get the job done.
Now the real key is that you have to silently move into the dungeon and achive you objective with as few people taking notice as possible. If things to need to die, assassination style is the way to go, everyone just puts arrows in the back of the guys head, until his feat stop kicking. Undead and constructs pose more of a problem than usual, but they can still be overcome. Use and abuse of suprise rounds it key.
RolesTracker - You need someone that can follow a trail from where the mark was to where he is. Usually a ranger or scout
Face - You need a people person to gather intel, plant false info, and all those other things that involve people outside your team. Can be split up (ie one guy has diplomacy, another gather info, ect). Bard, Beguiler, some rogues.
Trap Disarmer - this is more important that usual since you really don't want to rely of summon monster1 for it (too much noise). Luckily, you will have a few trapfinders, all you need to do is ensure at least 1 person is good at disarming them.
Trigger man - Most of you have some ability at doing this, but you do need atleast one guy that can accurately dish out a metric ton of pain in a very small amount of time. His job is to get the leader of a mob down, while the rest of the team mops up (ie one guy takes down the officer, while everyone else wipes up the grunts.) Anything with precision damage, or save or lose spells (provided the save is high enough).
Support - Your magicians. They provide effects that skill and money just can't (or can't efficiently). UMD can only get you so far (and is expensive to rely on). Very few "full" casters fit on this team without seriously building them out of type, but when they work, it's glorious. Bard and Beguiler are naturals at this role.
Now certain classes have an affinity for this type of action:
Rogue - Is the definitive class for this methodology. They are sneaky and skilled. and their primary offensive mechanic is all about ending fights quickly through planning (ie sneak attack). With UMD they can even compensate for a lack of magicians should you suffer from one. Trapfinding is very important for this methodology, and rogue is the go to guy for that type activity. They are the standard by which other Spec Ops characters are judged.
Sword Sage - Is better at fighting than the Rogue, but slightly less skillful. He has a wide variety of shenigans at his fingertips. His bag full of tricks makes rogues jealous, and the skill list alterations are not harmful, and at 6+ skills he is still packing enough of them to get the job done.
Ranger - One of the few full bab classes for this type of work. He has more accuracy at the cost of lower damage output. His tracking skills are a big draw, enabling him to find a target in short order without resorting to scrying. The animal companion is a mixed bag, but with PHB2 they can trade it for the ability to make anything they hit count as flanked for a turn. Rogues will love you for it.
Bard - Now this bard is not going to be the one that stands there singing the whole time. Infact to remind you not to do that you should set bardic music to oratory (bardic peptalk). What bard offers SOCOM is not music. He offers a varied spell list chock full of utility and healing, 6+ skills from a great list (including UMD), and great party face. He is an awful damage dealer, but is a great support type.
Beguiler - Trade the bardic peptalk and the healing/buffing from the bard and add awesome offensive spellcasting. Not only that, but unlike blastomancy it is quiet and therefore doesn't draw attention. Also can make the whole thing non-violent with the whelm series.
Factotum - Now I generally don't like this class (personal reasons), but it really bears mentioning. The definitive skill monkey, and always packing unexpected tricks. His skill list of ANY, and class features keyed off INT, mean his 6+ is probably as much or more than the rogues 8+. You probably want at least 1, and you could do worse than a whole party of them.
Ninja - Sudden Strike, while not as good as Sneak Attack is still good for this type of team. He brings a few neat tricks to the table. My opinion is that he is inferior to rogue, but YMMV. Okay, I lied, its a trap, avoid it. It seems perfect, but you are better off with rogue everytime.
Spell Thief - Strange little class. I think I like it, but I have little data to back it up. I've heard bad things. Now in this type of arrangement he does contribute some spellcasting, and offers a 6+ from a good list.
Scout - Take a blender and mix your rogue with your ranger, you have this guy. Solid bonus damage ability, 6+ on a good list. I think I like it better than ranger, but I don't have enough data. Good choice for party tracker.
These guys are not designed for SOCOM but a build can be forced out of them that won't kill the base strategy, and be worth the stretch.
Wizard - He already doesn't wear armor, his dex is usually fair (for rays), and with his high INT, his 2+skills are usually like 6 anyway, and he only needs concentration and spellcraft in the first place. Spell selection is key here. and when you are level 3, you darn well better know invisibility, since that is your only real hope. Steer clear of blasto (good advice in general, but doubly so here), and build up on utility. Batman tactics are a must. If you can make it work, very satisfying.
Barbarian - Doesn't wear heavy armor anyway, may as well move him down to light. Don't scream when raged, maybe just fluff the rage as channeled sociopathy. Adds another choice for tracker. Also being illiterate means you won't trigger explosive runes
Totemist - Kruthic claws offers a fine boost to hide and move silently (4+2*essentia), while giving some butt kicking acid claws when totem bound. That alone gives him consideration, add to it that he can change his skill aptitudes each morning, we have a seriously versatile skill and combat monkey. Again won't trigger explosive runes traps
Cloistered Cleric w/ trickery domain - now after jumping through several hoops, we can bring a cleric along. He is not going to be the bonecrushing zilla that normally zips around the board, but he offers support and healing in spades. But you have a lot of hoops to jump through to be good at it.
Dragon Shaman - Depending heavily the patron dragon, this guy is workable. Auras are great, and if you can keep you breath weapon quite, you win. Plenty of potential here, you just have bend a little to get it.
Warlock - With the right selection of invocations you can be invaluble.
Equipment
Studded Leather - paint it black, and give it to everyone that wears armor. Low ACP and high max dex are the key draws here. Shadow and silent moves enchants win the day. Even if you don't max your AC, you still want a low ACP, but you don't want nudity.
Wands - So many that you want. The ones that let you SA constructs, undead and plants are a priority (since you rely on precision damage, you need to be able to deliver it everything). If your gm lets you, try to make a higher level version of those that does all of the above. Invisibility and Cure spells also factor highly. Eternal wands are probably worth the investment, depending on the spell
Daggers - Get them in every metal you can find. You don't want DR to ruin your day. Daggers are concealable, cheap, and throwable. Since you are likely using precision damage, the damage die size doesn't much matter.
Sap - Honestly, skip this if you are evil, but with these tactics you don't need to kill every thing that crosses your path. Saps have their uses, and should not be underestimated as a non-lethal method of "persuasion". Just be sure to go over the rules for non-lethal damage and what creatures aren't effected, unless you like wasting time and dying.
Bows - If you can hit your target with out being next to him, you can atleast make him wait a turn or two before he can full attack. If you can get your precision damage to travel with the arrows, big win. Arrows follow the same idea as daggers, get them in every material you can find.
Extradimensional Storage - encumbrance is not your friend. Having a place to hide everything you aren't currently using, go for it. Handy Haversack's quickfind is a win, be sure you get one and load it with all the toys you want immediately available.
Skill Tools - If you have a skill, you want the skill tools. It's that simple. Master work if available.
Scrolls - similar to wands at first blush. The single use nature is annoying, but it is the only way to get 4+ lvl spells available.
Bag of Tricks - sounds silly, but if your cover is about to be blown by someone being loud, letting out a mouse to scurry away can make you enemy believe that they just have a rodent problem. Then just hope the exterminators can't make a housecall soon.
Mundane equipment from the PHB - I won't explain how all of that is usefull, but I will say that creativity + everyday stuff will give you an edge.
Tactics
This is the methodology itself.
1)Always end your turn behind cover of some sort. A the miss chance alone makes this wise, but secondly cover makes you harder to see, and allows you to make a hide check if found.
2)Hide Bodies. When you kill/KO some guard, hide the body. If you leave them out, they will be found by the next patrol and then they know to look for you.
3)If you are attacking from hiding, aim. It is a small bonus, but it can matter. If there is no hurry to start the combat take the extra time. Unless your gm calls aiming the surprise round, then your gm is a jerk, and you should probably just fire away.
4)Initiative matter. Atleast moreso than usual. You will be manuevering surprise rounds, and if you get two actions before them, you can save you HP for another fight. If done correctly 2 rounds of precision damage should fell most foes when coming from a full team.
5)End it quickly and quietly. You want silent and disabled enemies, moreso than dead (though dead accomplishes just that). Do not allow them the time to raise an alarm. The final boss battle CAN be an exception, but if you avoided any fights along the way, you should still keep it down.
6)Learn everything you can before the mission. You want all the intel you can get. Scry, scout, gather info in town, bribe gaurds, whatever. Knowing is half the battle. (or if you are sneaky enough all of it).
7)Get creative with illusions. Make an illusion of the wall with no one walking by, then walk by. there you go. Sound illusions that can render your footsteps silent are the win.
8)Always be ready to abort the mission, even in the middle of it. You are going to be going after things stronger than you. If you don't start with the upper hand, you are likely screwed. Exit strategies at every point are useful.
9)Cover is all important.
10)Never do with violence what you could do with holding your position. If you can wait out a passing guard, do so. He's of no threat if he is not going to find you.
11)Sleep in a rope trick. Seriously, just do it. Get a wand and there you go, 50 safe nights of sleep. Get an eternal wand, and sleep safe for the rest of your career.
12)Invisibility is great, flying while invisible is your friend.
13)Don't expect this strategy to be useful for your whole career. At higher levels there are so many ways to find you that it is rediculous.
14)Setting traps of your own is the win, so long as they silently neutralize a threat. If they are loud, make sure that they are positioned to draw attention from where you will be when they go off.
Key skills
skills are your bread and butter. Let's hit the important ones.
hide/move silently - the most crucial skill going for this setup. Allows ambushing, setup for sneak attack, the only good way to set up sudden strike. These two are needed by everyone, and they should be maxed out. Cross class cap is really painful hear.
spot, listen, search - Several reasons why these are important. One, you might not be the only sneaky git out there, and it would be really embarassing if the gaurds got the dop on you (I'll skip the soviet inversion joke). Two, even if there aren't sneaky guards, there could be traps. And three, its really bad if you sneak in to grab the liche's phylactery, and you can't find it.
Open Lock, disable device - Both of these keep inanimate things from stoping you in your tracks. You don't want to be stopped because the evil warlord had the good sense to lock his door before bed. Ditto this sentiment with the pit trap under the welcome mat.
Survival - Provides a list of several benefits for the out doorsy type. Also trackers need this skill.
Jump, Climb, Swim, tumble - all of these are about making getting around easier. You all know what they do, just figure out what is most important to you.
Use Magic Device - Probably the strongest skill in the game. Never underestimate it. The only caveat to this skill is that it costs money to utilize.
Bluff, and the rest of the social skills - these skills are great for gathering info before you start a mission. You probably want atleast one "face" to get all the needed info before you set foot in any hostile stronghold.
Forgery and disguise - If your gm let's you, planting one of your members inside the enemy organization is a great tactic. It gives you amazing intel, and your infiltrator can pull a very dramatic backstab when you spring the trap on the BBEG. This involves a lot of coordination with the gm, and some serious cajones on the part of the mole. Worth it.
Any other tips that anyone wants to add.
My thoughts:
First of all, you need to get all your fellow players to sign off on it. If someone is wanting to be a giant mechanus plate wearing one Paladin army, he is not going to work well with the rogue, ranger and beguiler who are set on this path. You need to talk with the other dorks and get them to go along with this idea. Don't pressure them, since this is a little outside normal D&D boundries they should feel free to play what they want with in the GM's allowances. You probably want to talk this over with the GM as well since this has serious effects on what type of encounters and overall theme the adventure will have.
Secondly, Once you have 3-5 dorks ready to form their own SOCOM, you need to plan roles and tactics. The standard roles of Tank, Skill monkey, Healbot/buffbot, and Arcanist don't fit as perfectly in this scenario. Skill monkey is to some extent everyone. Tank is of significantly reduced importance since your goal is to end fights quickly. Healing needs less focus (but is still needed), since A)Most People will be in d8 hit die or lower classes, and B)You are ending fights with speed and precision (meaning less damage taken). Your Primary Arcanist sees very little change, except his spell choices have different priorities, and his skill needs shift. Honestly we have new roles we consider, and one guy can fill more than one role, and sometimes more than one guy can work together to get the job done.
Now the real key is that you have to silently move into the dungeon and achive you objective with as few people taking notice as possible. If things to need to die, assassination style is the way to go, everyone just puts arrows in the back of the guys head, until his feat stop kicking. Undead and constructs pose more of a problem than usual, but they can still be overcome. Use and abuse of suprise rounds it key.
RolesTracker - You need someone that can follow a trail from where the mark was to where he is. Usually a ranger or scout
Face - You need a people person to gather intel, plant false info, and all those other things that involve people outside your team. Can be split up (ie one guy has diplomacy, another gather info, ect). Bard, Beguiler, some rogues.
Trap Disarmer - this is more important that usual since you really don't want to rely of summon monster1 for it (too much noise). Luckily, you will have a few trapfinders, all you need to do is ensure at least 1 person is good at disarming them.
Trigger man - Most of you have some ability at doing this, but you do need atleast one guy that can accurately dish out a metric ton of pain in a very small amount of time. His job is to get the leader of a mob down, while the rest of the team mops up (ie one guy takes down the officer, while everyone else wipes up the grunts.) Anything with precision damage, or save or lose spells (provided the save is high enough).
Support - Your magicians. They provide effects that skill and money just can't (or can't efficiently). UMD can only get you so far (and is expensive to rely on). Very few "full" casters fit on this team without seriously building them out of type, but when they work, it's glorious. Bard and Beguiler are naturals at this role.
Now certain classes have an affinity for this type of action:
Rogue - Is the definitive class for this methodology. They are sneaky and skilled. and their primary offensive mechanic is all about ending fights quickly through planning (ie sneak attack). With UMD they can even compensate for a lack of magicians should you suffer from one. Trapfinding is very important for this methodology, and rogue is the go to guy for that type activity. They are the standard by which other Spec Ops characters are judged.
Sword Sage - Is better at fighting than the Rogue, but slightly less skillful. He has a wide variety of shenigans at his fingertips. His bag full of tricks makes rogues jealous, and the skill list alterations are not harmful, and at 6+ skills he is still packing enough of them to get the job done.
Ranger - One of the few full bab classes for this type of work. He has more accuracy at the cost of lower damage output. His tracking skills are a big draw, enabling him to find a target in short order without resorting to scrying. The animal companion is a mixed bag, but with PHB2 they can trade it for the ability to make anything they hit count as flanked for a turn. Rogues will love you for it.
Bard - Now this bard is not going to be the one that stands there singing the whole time. Infact to remind you not to do that you should set bardic music to oratory (bardic peptalk). What bard offers SOCOM is not music. He offers a varied spell list chock full of utility and healing, 6+ skills from a great list (including UMD), and great party face. He is an awful damage dealer, but is a great support type.
Beguiler - Trade the bardic peptalk and the healing/buffing from the bard and add awesome offensive spellcasting. Not only that, but unlike blastomancy it is quiet and therefore doesn't draw attention. Also can make the whole thing non-violent with the whelm series.
Factotum - Now I generally don't like this class (personal reasons), but it really bears mentioning. The definitive skill monkey, and always packing unexpected tricks. His skill list of ANY, and class features keyed off INT, mean his 6+ is probably as much or more than the rogues 8+. You probably want at least 1, and you could do worse than a whole party of them.
Ninja - Sudden Strike, while not as good as Sneak Attack is still good for this type of team. He brings a few neat tricks to the table. My opinion is that he is inferior to rogue, but YMMV. Okay, I lied, its a trap, avoid it. It seems perfect, but you are better off with rogue everytime.
Spell Thief - Strange little class. I think I like it, but I have little data to back it up. I've heard bad things. Now in this type of arrangement he does contribute some spellcasting, and offers a 6+ from a good list.
Scout - Take a blender and mix your rogue with your ranger, you have this guy. Solid bonus damage ability, 6+ on a good list. I think I like it better than ranger, but I don't have enough data. Good choice for party tracker.
These guys are not designed for SOCOM but a build can be forced out of them that won't kill the base strategy, and be worth the stretch.
Wizard - He already doesn't wear armor, his dex is usually fair (for rays), and with his high INT, his 2+skills are usually like 6 anyway, and he only needs concentration and spellcraft in the first place. Spell selection is key here. and when you are level 3, you darn well better know invisibility, since that is your only real hope. Steer clear of blasto (good advice in general, but doubly so here), and build up on utility. Batman tactics are a must. If you can make it work, very satisfying.
Barbarian - Doesn't wear heavy armor anyway, may as well move him down to light. Don't scream when raged, maybe just fluff the rage as channeled sociopathy. Adds another choice for tracker. Also being illiterate means you won't trigger explosive runes
Totemist - Kruthic claws offers a fine boost to hide and move silently (4+2*essentia), while giving some butt kicking acid claws when totem bound. That alone gives him consideration, add to it that he can change his skill aptitudes each morning, we have a seriously versatile skill and combat monkey. Again won't trigger explosive runes traps
Cloistered Cleric w/ trickery domain - now after jumping through several hoops, we can bring a cleric along. He is not going to be the bonecrushing zilla that normally zips around the board, but he offers support and healing in spades. But you have a lot of hoops to jump through to be good at it.
Dragon Shaman - Depending heavily the patron dragon, this guy is workable. Auras are great, and if you can keep you breath weapon quite, you win. Plenty of potential here, you just have bend a little to get it.
Warlock - With the right selection of invocations you can be invaluble.
Equipment
Studded Leather - paint it black, and give it to everyone that wears armor. Low ACP and high max dex are the key draws here. Shadow and silent moves enchants win the day. Even if you don't max your AC, you still want a low ACP, but you don't want nudity.
Wands - So many that you want. The ones that let you SA constructs, undead and plants are a priority (since you rely on precision damage, you need to be able to deliver it everything). If your gm lets you, try to make a higher level version of those that does all of the above. Invisibility and Cure spells also factor highly. Eternal wands are probably worth the investment, depending on the spell
Daggers - Get them in every metal you can find. You don't want DR to ruin your day. Daggers are concealable, cheap, and throwable. Since you are likely using precision damage, the damage die size doesn't much matter.
Sap - Honestly, skip this if you are evil, but with these tactics you don't need to kill every thing that crosses your path. Saps have their uses, and should not be underestimated as a non-lethal method of "persuasion". Just be sure to go over the rules for non-lethal damage and what creatures aren't effected, unless you like wasting time and dying.
Bows - If you can hit your target with out being next to him, you can atleast make him wait a turn or two before he can full attack. If you can get your precision damage to travel with the arrows, big win. Arrows follow the same idea as daggers, get them in every material you can find.
Extradimensional Storage - encumbrance is not your friend. Having a place to hide everything you aren't currently using, go for it. Handy Haversack's quickfind is a win, be sure you get one and load it with all the toys you want immediately available.
Skill Tools - If you have a skill, you want the skill tools. It's that simple. Master work if available.
Scrolls - similar to wands at first blush. The single use nature is annoying, but it is the only way to get 4+ lvl spells available.
Bag of Tricks - sounds silly, but if your cover is about to be blown by someone being loud, letting out a mouse to scurry away can make you enemy believe that they just have a rodent problem. Then just hope the exterminators can't make a housecall soon.
Mundane equipment from the PHB - I won't explain how all of that is usefull, but I will say that creativity + everyday stuff will give you an edge.
Tactics
This is the methodology itself.
1)Always end your turn behind cover of some sort. A the miss chance alone makes this wise, but secondly cover makes you harder to see, and allows you to make a hide check if found.
2)Hide Bodies. When you kill/KO some guard, hide the body. If you leave them out, they will be found by the next patrol and then they know to look for you.
3)If you are attacking from hiding, aim. It is a small bonus, but it can matter. If there is no hurry to start the combat take the extra time. Unless your gm calls aiming the surprise round, then your gm is a jerk, and you should probably just fire away.
4)Initiative matter. Atleast moreso than usual. You will be manuevering surprise rounds, and if you get two actions before them, you can save you HP for another fight. If done correctly 2 rounds of precision damage should fell most foes when coming from a full team.
5)End it quickly and quietly. You want silent and disabled enemies, moreso than dead (though dead accomplishes just that). Do not allow them the time to raise an alarm. The final boss battle CAN be an exception, but if you avoided any fights along the way, you should still keep it down.
6)Learn everything you can before the mission. You want all the intel you can get. Scry, scout, gather info in town, bribe gaurds, whatever. Knowing is half the battle. (or if you are sneaky enough all of it).
7)Get creative with illusions. Make an illusion of the wall with no one walking by, then walk by. there you go. Sound illusions that can render your footsteps silent are the win.
8)Always be ready to abort the mission, even in the middle of it. You are going to be going after things stronger than you. If you don't start with the upper hand, you are likely screwed. Exit strategies at every point are useful.
9)Cover is all important.
10)Never do with violence what you could do with holding your position. If you can wait out a passing guard, do so. He's of no threat if he is not going to find you.
11)Sleep in a rope trick. Seriously, just do it. Get a wand and there you go, 50 safe nights of sleep. Get an eternal wand, and sleep safe for the rest of your career.
12)Invisibility is great, flying while invisible is your friend.
13)Don't expect this strategy to be useful for your whole career. At higher levels there are so many ways to find you that it is rediculous.
14)Setting traps of your own is the win, so long as they silently neutralize a threat. If they are loud, make sure that they are positioned to draw attention from where you will be when they go off.
Key skills
skills are your bread and butter. Let's hit the important ones.
hide/move silently - the most crucial skill going for this setup. Allows ambushing, setup for sneak attack, the only good way to set up sudden strike. These two are needed by everyone, and they should be maxed out. Cross class cap is really painful hear.
spot, listen, search - Several reasons why these are important. One, you might not be the only sneaky git out there, and it would be really embarassing if the gaurds got the dop on you (I'll skip the soviet inversion joke). Two, even if there aren't sneaky guards, there could be traps. And three, its really bad if you sneak in to grab the liche's phylactery, and you can't find it.
Open Lock, disable device - Both of these keep inanimate things from stoping you in your tracks. You don't want to be stopped because the evil warlord had the good sense to lock his door before bed. Ditto this sentiment with the pit trap under the welcome mat.
Survival - Provides a list of several benefits for the out doorsy type. Also trackers need this skill.
Jump, Climb, Swim, tumble - all of these are about making getting around easier. You all know what they do, just figure out what is most important to you.
Use Magic Device - Probably the strongest skill in the game. Never underestimate it. The only caveat to this skill is that it costs money to utilize.
Bluff, and the rest of the social skills - these skills are great for gathering info before you start a mission. You probably want atleast one "face" to get all the needed info before you set foot in any hostile stronghold.
Forgery and disguise - If your gm let's you, planting one of your members inside the enemy organization is a great tactic. It gives you amazing intel, and your infiltrator can pull a very dramatic backstab when you spring the trap on the BBEG. This involves a lot of coordination with the gm, and some serious cajones on the part of the mole. Worth it.
Any other tips that anyone wants to add.