Beguilers. How do they work?

[Maeglin_Dubh]

Main questions....

Can Beguilers fight? Or are they mainly social casters?

I'm wanting to try to make a character similar to Jaqen H'gar from the Song of Ice and Fire series, and from what I can tell, he's mainly stealth, perception, combat, and trickery, with at least some of the trickery seeming to be based in magic. Beguiler seemed a decent choice, but then the idea of a Psion seemed to make sense as well.

Neither one strikes me as the combat-capable type, though, and Jaqen is shown in the books dueling a guard and stabbing him through the heart very proficiently.

How might I replicate such a character?

[randomhero00]

They can fight just fine.

[Urpriest]

Beguilers aren't especially combat-focused. While I could see a Beguiler working well for Jaqen's magical powers (though I'd probably just go with some sort of advanced Doppleganger, as he's definitely more than a little monstrous), Beguilers have very few gish spells, low BAB, and mediocre HP. That said, a Beguiler isn't a horrible chassis for an Unseen Seer build. I could see a Rogue 1/Beguiler 4/Unseen Seer X being a decent imitation of Jaqen. Get some sneak attack on that puppy and you'll be mostly in the right place.

[Reluctance]

Protagonists in books tend to be good at whatever's required of them. Protagonists in RPGs have to be more limited, both to keep one person from steamrolling the group, and to keep some challenge to keep the game part of the game intact. Your beguiler will only shine in melee against a significantly weaker creature.

Ignoring the social-fu and all the bad things you can do to an enemy that fails a save, the beguiler is also good at buffing his allies/debuffing his enemies. You'll definitely be able to help when initiative is rolled. Swordplay isn't your forte, though, so don't worry if the character doesn't translate 100% to D&D.

[Studoku]

I don't know the character you're refering to, but the Factotum from Dungeonscape could be worth a look. It's a good class for the smart hero who is capable of doing a little of anything if necessary.

Beguilers are, in my experience, really not fighters. You have a wizards BaB, only slightly better HD and light armour which really isn't worth anything in combat- I didn't even bother with it when I played a beguiler, going for constant mage armour instead.

In combat, the beguiler is a buffer/debuffer caster. You can also try and control the battlefield with illusions or charm/dominate foes. Very fun to play but possibly not what you're looking for.

[Urpriest]

I don't know the character you're refering to, but the Factotum from Dungeonscape could be worth a look. It's a good class for the smart hero who is capable of doing a little of anything if necessary.


I do know the character, and Factotum would fit to a tee. The only change I would make would be to add levels of Chameleon, the fluff of which is utterly perfect. Just refluff the masters of the Chameleons to be a certain mysterious religious order...

[sonofzeal]

Main questions....

Can Beguilers fight? Or are they mainly social casters?

I'm wanting to try to make a character similar to Jaqen H'gar from the Song of Ice and Fire series, and from what I can tell, he's mainly stealth, perception, combat, and trickery, with at least some of the trickery seeming to be based in magic. Beguiler seemed a decent choice, but then the idea of a Psion seemed to make sense as well.

Neither one strikes me as the combat-capable type, though, and Jaqen is shown in the books dueling a guard and stabbing him through the heart very proficiently.

How might I replicate such a character?
Swordage. Can fight, can stealth, and has some slight pseudo-magical abilities.


Beguilers are effect though. Absolute masters of subtlety and steath and shadow, illusion and enchantment. They're unlikely to pull off massive feats of derring-do with a sword, but they're perfectly capable of making everyone around them think they did. Not that they're incompetent in melee, it's just not their forte. A Beguiler with a Swordsage dip could be quite effective though. Power Attack + Emerald Razor can make a single hit count for a lot.

[Maeglin_Dubh]

I do know the character, and Factotum would fit to a tee. The only change I would make would be to add levels of Chameleon, the fluff of which is utterly perfect. Just refluff the masters of the Chameleons to be a certain mysterious religious order...

Factotum into Chameleon would be wonderful... I've never used Factotum before, though.

Are they a good 'off the shelf' class, or do I need to take a correspondence course in making it work?

[The-Mage-King]

Beguilers. How do they work?


Magnets.
Meme is meme.

[Studoku]

Factotum into Chameleon would be wonderful... I've never used Factotum before, though.

Are they a good 'off the shelf' class, or do I need to take a correspondence course in making it work?

I'd recommend reading up on how their inspiration points work and note down what you can spend them on at your level before them game. They're fairly straightforward though- you get x inspiration points per encounter which can be spent to do cool stuff (usually adding your int modifier to something).

Factotum casting is simple enough- IIRC, it's just vancian casting with very few spells per day, a choice of every arcane spell in existance and the inability to memorie the same spell twice in one day.

Compared with some classes, it's fairly straightforward though.

[MeeposFire]

Factotum into Chameleon would be wonderful... I've never used Factotum before, though.

Are they a good 'off the shelf' class, or do I need to take a correspondence course in making it work?

Only thing I can think about that you might not know is the font of inspiration.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070606

Otherwise factotum is easy to build and fun to play. Standard actions are great for them so try to think of what you would like that to be. Many shot, iajustsu focus, or something else.

If you are asking if they are effective-yes very much so.

[Maeglin_Dubh]

So I'd want Human, first level feats being Font of Inspiration and Able Learner?

Go for Chameleon Prereqs, then what I need from there?

[sonofzeal]

So I'd want Human, first level feats being Font of Inspiration and Able Learner?

Go for Chameleon Prereqs, then what I need from there?
Able Learner isn't necessary unless you're multiclassing out of Factotum extensively. Take Font twice. Or four times, with two flaws. Extra Inspiration is always good.

[Noneoyabizzness]

able learner is prereq for chameleon though

[Fax Celestis]

Beguilers aren't especially combat-focused. While I could see a Beguiler working well for Jaqen's magical powers (though I'd probably just go with some sort of advanced Doppleganger, as he's definitely more than a little monstrous), Beguilers have very few gish spells, low BAB, and mediocre HP. That said, a Beguiler isn't a horrible chassis for an Unseen Seer build. I could see a Rogue 1/Beguiler 4/Unseen Seer X being a decent imitation of Jaqen. Get some sneak attack on that puppy and you'll be mostly in the right place.

I'd instead go Spellthief/Beguiler/Unseen Seer with Master Spellthief, myself.

[Leon]

Can Beguilers fight? Or are they mainly social casters?

Everything can fight - some just do it differently



Neither one strikes me as the combat-capable type, though, and Jaqen is shown in the books dueling a guard and stabbing him through the heart very proficiently.

How might I replicate such a character?

With a number of ways - i don't know the character but if you think a Beguiler is a good fit then it probably is - for a bit more "fighty" i would pick up a couple of levels of Swashbuckler (at least 3 for the Int to damage bonus)

[Fax Celestis]

My wife played a pixie barbarian/beguiler in a one-shot once. It was actually a little bit terrifying.

[Tael]

What do you mean by fight? Beguilers can be excellent controllers/disablers, they're spell list is pretty nice. If you're talking about melee however, go Factotum, Swordsage, Unseen Seer, or any number of other roguish gishes.

[Thurbane]

How might I replicate such a character?
Not familiar with the character (SoI&F is on my "to read" list), but a character with full BAB, stealth and (some) arcane spells is a Mystic Ranger (Dragon mag) with the Sword of the Arcane Order (FR) feat. You can take feats to add social skills if you like.

[Shyftir]

Beguiler/rogue to qualify for assassin would fit pretty well with the character to.

He's really basically just an assassin/rogue whose assassin spells are divine instead of arcane, he also has a "Coin of Disguise." Also there is Lurk which is pretty similar to what he can pull off.

[sonofzeal]

Also there is Lurk which is pretty similar to what he can pull off.
...but not very well. Lurk is a pretty weak class, the mechanics don't work as well as one might have hoped.

[Fax Celestis]

...but not very well. Lurk is a pretty weak class, the mechanics don't work as well as one might have hoped.

Psychic rogue (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b) is pretty much what the lurk should've been.

[FMArthur]

The classes he's in might be any number of things, and the Faceless are still mysterious enough that we don't know the exact source of their powers. A Binder has an ability swap system that would suit the character's talents well - enough so that he could in fact be full-classed Binder. Factotums don't change specializations but are merely generalists with comparatively weaker powers, so the fluff of someone who can be anyone certainly does fit but perhaps not quite so perfectly as the Binder and Chameleon classes which fundamentally change their skillsets from time to time. The difference between Binders and Chameleons is that a Binder works by combining a variety of pieces of a role and a Chameleon just imitates some basic classes.

He could be anything involving Chameleon, Factotum or Binder. If he's a Chameleon the entry could be one of the other two but could just as easily be a Rogue. I feel like he'd need a skillmonkey base though, since Chameleons are rather poor at that.

In fact the extent of what we know of the character could simply plant him as a Changeling (or Hat of Disguise) Rogue all the way through.

[Maeglin_Dubh]

Binders don't seem to work from what I understand of the fluff, but that could be overlooked.

I think I prefer the Factotum chassis, and Unseen Seer is a great way to do it. As for whether to pick up the Sneak Attack from Spellthief or Rogue.... That I'm not yet sure on. In the world of the books, there isn't much magic, so he's more likely a rogue. But Spellthief could be cool, and I've never played one before.

How would Factotum/Spellthief work with the Unseen Seer's caster progression?