La Grande Armee vs. the Blight

[Dacia Brabant]

So it's 1812 and Napoleon has just finished crossing the river Neman with his 600,000-plus Grande Armée at the start of what would be his doomed invasion of Russia. However, rather than entering Lithuania, Napoleon's army finds itself in a strange land similar to Middle Ages England, where the peasantry flees not from the French multinational forces but from something called "the Blight."

Napoleon quickly learns the "Darkspawn" that make up the Blight army are humanoid monsters outfitted in antiquated arms and heavy armor, but also have units capable of something unbelievable: magic. Even more absurdly, a few terrified scouts tell of a huge dragon leading the main force of Darkspawn in numbers superior to their own, all bearing down upon them....


Right, so we have the largest army fielded in pre-industrialized Europe, commanded by arguably the best general since Julius Caesar, versus the Blight from Dragon Age. To make it competitive, we'll say all Ferelden's Grey Wardens including the main character died at Ostagar, so the Archdemon isn't going away anytime soon. We'll also say Napoleon gets no significant help from the locals, who either have been killed/driven off by the Darkspawn, hopelessly crippled by their own internal struggles, or think the French are Orlesians (which they basically are, but hey).

So, can roughly 500,000 musket-armed infantry, 100,000 cavalry mostly outfitted with small arms and lances, and 1,000 artillery pieces and crews, defeat... you know, I'm not even sure how many Darkspawn there are. Certainly in the hundreds of thousands if not a million, and IIRC 1 out of every 100 or so can use magic. Plus there's Ogres who are practically living tanks, and Shrieks waging asymmetrical warfare from the shadows. And of course the Archdemon, who obviously has air superiority.

Who is victorious? If it was just Darkspawn, Napoleon wins easily, but with the Archdemon there causing all sorts of havoc and not technically being killable unless other Wardens arrive, I say it goes down as a narrow, extremely bloodly defeat for the French. But what do you folks think?

[ThirdEmperor]

Darkspawn. As the Archdemon will keep respawning, it'll take them out, barely. There's also the fact that Darkspawn blood kills, and the fear factor. The Grande Armee is not used to fighting monsters, and that's going to majorly throw them off their game.

[Codemus]

The guns and cannons will give them a good edge, but the Emissaries and Archdemon would give them some trouble. I imagine that standing orders would quickly change to shoot the spell casters on sight, as well as turn all artillery on the ogres. On the Archdemon... while it does respawn, in a sense, it wouldn't be a dragon again would it? Granted, if it were to inhabit the body of a Hurlock or something, it would most likely be a powerful spell caster.

EDIT: Forgot Shrieks. It would be hard to counter their stealth, other than just step up guard duty at night and build fortifications to channel any possible attackers through kill zones.

EDIT EDIT: Oh, also, I would like the French to win, but the Darkspawn would probably overcome them. Barring last minute heroics of epic porportions that would win them the war. :smallwink:

[Forum Explorer]

I agree the darkspawn would win. The French would likely try and get back to their own world. I don't know how but I can see them pulling that off and counting it as a victory.

Without a way to kill the Archdemon moral would plummet and being outnumbered by magic using demons would not help.

[Mewtarthio]

Ferelden, you say? The Blight is the least of their worries. One abomination will end them all in a most horrific fashion.

[Codemus]

Ferelden, you say? The Blight is the least of their worries. One abomination will end them all in a most horrific fashion.

I dunno about all of them. If arrows can kill an abomination, then bullets can probably do so faster. Granted, the first time they run into one will be spectacularly gory.

[Teron]

Is it bad that my first thought was "How many dragons does Napoléon have?" Guess what I've been reading lately. :smallbiggrin:

Anyway, I don't know much about Dragon Age, but you've got to allow la Grande Armée some means of taking out the Archdemon or there's no debate.

[The Glyphstone]

Is it bad that my first thought was "How many dragons does Napoléon have?" Guess what I've been reading lately. :smallbiggrin:

Anyway, I don't know much about Dragon Age, but you've got to allow la Grande Armée some means of taking out the Archdemon or there's no debate.

Very entertaining literature. Now if only the next one would hurry up and come out.

[warty goblin]

I think there's a serious underestimation of the effects one side having a leader who can find his ass with both hands and a map. The Darkspawn can be engaged and beaten by Fereldean armies, which have no cavalry, no notion of fighting in formation, no idea of combined arms, supporting fires or pretty much anything else. Hell, they apparently haven't even figured out how to make spears. Napoleon will have all of those, and the skill necessary to put them into effect against intelligently led armies with technological parity. The Darkspawn lack both of these qualities.

Going off of the big battle cutscene in the first game Darkspawn die plenty fast to arrows. They'll die at least as fast to massed musket fire and cannon barrage. Wizards are well and good, but a cannon can do pretty much the same thing, and probably at longer range on top of it all.

Now without a way to permanently kill the archdemon, Napoleon can't win. Baring that however it's an utter Darkspawn massacre.

[Dacia Brabant]

Yeah I really think the cavalry and artillery are huge advantages in fighting mass groupings of Darkspawn. The model 1777 Charleville musket was accurate to 100 meters, and three to five times that distance for Howitzers.

The corrupt blood though, I forgot about that. If it came to setting bayonets, that would become a serious problem particularly against Shrieks who are probably the only Darkspawn who'd consistently get within melee range.

I'm not sure how they deal with the Archdemon though. Any mechanized army should destroy it easily and keep destroying it until it runs out of mooks to possess (does it turn into a dragon again when it does this?). That's kind of why I picked the best army from before the machine gun era. I'm thinking the only way Napoleon wins would be a war of attrition, slaughtering enough Darkspawn and knocking the Archdemon out enough times for Grey Wardens to arrive and permakill it.

[Dienekes]

Napoleon kills a lot of darkspawn until he runs out of ammunition for his guns and canons. Once he is forced to engage them without his technology he's screwed.

His army which has never seen such things are now viewing monsters and demons from their worst nightmares, they'll probably break formation from fear after being forced to fight their first wave of Ogres. See a dragon flying overhead breathing fire on them would be even worse.

Sorry, Napoleon would have a destructive time while supplies last, but once that's done he's finished.

[Shyftir]

Napoleon's supply lines are fine since he ISN'T attacking Russia. He'll be able to continue calling up more troops. And honestly considering the normal horrors of war they'll get over the Darkspawn after a couple engagements.

Also my first response to this?

Since when does the Dark One have dragons to back up his Trollocs?!

Then I saw Dragon Age...

[Mewtarthio]

I'm not sure how they deal with the Archdemon though. Any mechanized army should destroy it easily and keep destroying it until it runs out of mooks to possess (does it turn into a dragon again when it does this?).

The Darkspawn are effectively unlimited in number. Now, I only say "effectively," because there is evidence they can only bring so much force to bear at once, but they're not about to run out any time soon. Besides, if Napoleon makes a dent in their numbers, they can just make more Broodmothers.

[Flickerdart]

I'm reasonably certain that the Little Corporal won't be sitting in the middle of a field waiting for the cannonballs to run out. He'd track down the source, after which it gets dicey because cannons and cavalry are not very effective in the Deep Roads. Maybe he figures out a way to Gray Warden-ize some of his Guards, in which case they win.
Oh, and in the meantime he would take over Ferelden, because it's there.

[Jeivar]

Oh, and in the meantime he would take over Ferelden, because it's there.

It would be funny as hell to see Loghain encounter orlesian french Napoleon. Especially if Napoleon cuts him off mid-sentence with a pistol. :smallsmile:

[warty goblin]

He'd track down the source, after which it gets dicey because cannons and cavalry are not very effective in the Deep Roads.

Load said cannon with grapeshot, point them down the tunnel, I bet they'll do just fine.

Even should they not, using large quantities of explosives to cause cave-ins would.

[factotum]

Now without a way to permanently kill the archdemon, Napoleon can't win. Baring that however it's an utter Darkspawn massacre.

Surely there IS a way to permanently kill the Archdemon even without Grey Wardens? Simply kill all the darkspawn! The Archdemon moves into the nearest darkspawn when it dies, but if there aren't any left then that plan kind of falls apart...and while the hordes of the darkspawn are vast beyond counting in a fantasy setting, we're talking an army of more than a hundred thousand Frenchmen here, which would make your typical mediaeval army look a bit sick.

Overall, I think the technological edge alone would give it to Napoleon, and that's ignoring his undoubted tactical gifts...

[Mewtarthio]

Surely there IS a way to permanently kill the Archdemon even without Grey Wardens? Simply kill all the darkspawn! The Archdemon moves into the nearest darkspawn when it dies, but if there aren't any left then that plan kind of falls apart...and while the hordes of the darkspawn are vast beyond counting in a fantasy setting, we're talking an army of more than a hundred thousand Frenchmen here, which would make your typical mediaeval army look a bit sick.

Each broodmother can spawn over a thousand darkspawn. Creating a broodmother is not exactly the most resource-intensive of tasks. If it comes down to a war of attrition, Napoleon will lose. That being said, it'll probably take a while, so he can go on the defensive and hold out until the Grey Wardens show up (and then, of course, he can sweep into broken Denerim and declare himself the new King of Ferelden). Going on offense, though, strikes me as fairly stupid, seeing as his ridiculous range advantege gets negated in the Deep Roads.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

Each broodmother can spawn over a thousand darkspawn. Creating a broodmother is not exactly the most resource-intensive of tasks. If it comes down to a war of attrition, Napoleon will lose. That being said, it'll probably take a while, so he can go on the defensive and hold out until the Grey Wardens show up (and then, of course, he can sweep into broken Denerim and declare himself the new King of Ferelden). Going on offense, though, strikes me as fairly stupid, seeing as his ridiculous range advantege gets negated in the Deep Roads.

And then he creates Murat the king of Ferelden, and his half-step-brother-in-law is now the Arl of Everything.

Oh Napoleon, you scamp you!

[Dacia Brabant]

And then he creates Murat the king of Ferelden, and his half-step-brother-in-law is now the Arl of Everything.

Oh Napoleon, you scamp you!

You win the thread. :smallbiggrin:

[Talkkno]

I really doubt their are millions of darkspawn. The attack on Denimeierm outnumbered the colation forces roughly 3:1 parity, and their coudln't have been more then 100,000 troops considering that Oreliey mobilizing tens of thousands of troops was considered a potent force.

[Giggling Ghast]

The darkspawn horde isn't quite in the millions, though I do recall the Architect saying that hundreds of thousands of his kind die during each Blight.

Assuming that Napoleon's first encounters with the darkspawn will be with large, disorganized groups, I suspect he will have some success at first. He will suffer some casaulties from darkspawn emissaries and ogres, but for the most part, his forces have the benefit of technology.

The tide will turn, however, when some of Napoleon's soliders begin to sicken from the Blight. That will greatly hurt morale, and worse, any ghouls created from his forces will bring their knowledge of munitions to the horde.

And any sizeable group of darkspawn led by the Archdemon will completely devastate Napoleon's forces. They have no defence against its breath attack and their weapons will be largely ineffective against a flying target, meaning that it can strafe the French soliders at its leisure.

[Talkkno]

The tide will turn, however, when some of Napoleon's soliders begin to sicken from the Blight. That will greatly hurt morale, and worse, any ghouls created from his forces will bring their knowledge of munitions to the horde.

And any sizeable group of darkspawn led by the Archdemon will completely devastate Napoleon's forces. They have no defence against its breath attack and their weapons will be largely ineffective against a flying target, meaning that it can strafe the French soliders at its leisure.
Why would these factors prove decesive? Frelden armies managed to hold their despite these factors, so why wouldn't the French?

[Giggling Ghast]

Napoleon's armies have no idea that the darkspawn can spread their taint with their blood. When his men start screaming at camp that they can hear the Archdemon in their dreams and begin disappearing into the night to join the horde, that's going to hurt morale, even if he can spare the men.

Ferelden's armies were at least prepared for that eventuality. They knew to watch out for the taint. And they were led by Grey Wardens who dealt with the Archdemon personally.

[Talkkno]

Napoleon's armies have no idea that the darkspawn can spread their taint with their blood. When his men start screaming at camp that they can hear the Archdemon in their dreams and begin disappearing into the night to join the horde, that's going to hurt morale, even if he can spare the men.
Eh, I doubt it'd be worse then what Napoleon suffered threw the March to Russia, with the large desertion rate, lack of medical supplies, Russian partisans, and constant Cossack harassment, all while marching threw scorched earth.




Ferelden's armies were at least prepared for that eventuality. They knew to watch out for the taint. And they were led by Grey Wardens who dealt with the Archdemon personally.
Fair enough, though I'm sure with thousand cannons flying threw the air, it should hit it eventually and we know regular swords can hurt the thing, so a cannon should deal a serious wound at the very least. Also considering the Archdemon isn't too bright, Look how it allowed one the Grey Wardens to jump on its back and stab it, when it could just simply flew high up in the threw fireballs at the Grey Warden with impunity. instead of engaging them on the ground where it could hurt it in the final battle as well.

[Dacia Brabant]

And it's not just the cannons. I don't think the Archdemon's breath weapon would be effective past 100 yards, so if it tried to strafe a battalion of 1,000 men in square formation with artillery in the middle, all firing in unison, it's going to take some hits.

[Giggling Ghast]

And it's not just the cannons. I don't think the Archdemon's breath weapon would be effective past 100 yards, so if it tried to strafe a battalion of 1,000 men in square formation with artillery in the middle, all firing in unison, it's going to take some hits.

It can take a lot of hits. And what does it matter how badly they wound it? It's not like they can kill it permanently.

[warty goblin]

It can take a lot of hits. And what does it matter how badly they wound it? It's not like they can kill it permanently.

It can be harmed by a sword. Anything that can be damaged by a sword can be damaged much, much more by a bigger chunk of iron flying several hundred feet per second.

[Giggling Ghast]

See, I think you're envisioning Napoleon's forces being in ideal circumstances. In the scenario you're dreaming up, the French soliders have positioned on some perfectly flat plain. No darkspawn are in sight. They have their cannons all lined up and the men are armed and ready. A creature is spotted in the sky! It begins to swoop down! An order to fire goes out. A hail of gunfire and cannonballs smash into the creature! The dragon comes crashing to the ground! VICTORY! Vive la France! Wine and French whores all around!

But it wouldn't be under those circumstances. If la Grande Armee is facing the Archdemon, it's during a battle with a massive group of darkspawn; they're preoccupied with insane monsters charging their lines while tossing boulders and flinging spells.

Maybe they're ready to deal with darkspawn, having skirmished with them before. The Archdemon isn't something they've seen, however. The sight of a dragon swooping overhead spreads terror through the ranks. Monsters are one thing, but now they must fight dragons as well?

Sure, when they see it coming in for an attack, they open fire on the Archdemon. But can they really do a lot of damage? Correct me if I'm wrong, but were cannons in the early 18th century so accurate that they can pick off a fast-moving, flying target easily? Were muskets from that time period similarly as accurate, as well as significantly deadlier than arrows? I've seen the Archdemon get peppered with arrows and keep going. You mentioned that you can harm the Archdemon with a sword, Warty, and that's true. But it withstands A LOT of hits with a sword, even still.

More likely the Archdemon endures some damage but manages to strafe the front lines with flame, and dozens of men in tightly-packed formations die in an instant. None of these soliders have any resistance to the Archdemon's breath weapon.

Yeah, maybe after a fearsome battle with a few thousand casaulties, they can bring it down. What does it matter if they can? When the Archdemon dies, it is simply reborn and attacks them anew.

[Talkkno]

It can take a lot of hits. And what does it matter how badly they wound it? It's not like they can kill it permanently.
They only need to take it out of action, without the Archdemon harassing them constantly, then its a easy win for the French, after all, their could be a million Darkspawn, and the Grande Armee would have to simply, as the Swiss say it best

"Shoot twice and then go home." :smallcool:


See, I think you're envisioning Napoleon's forces being in ideal circumstances. In the scenario you're dreaming up, the French soliders have positioned on some perfectly flat plain. No darkspawn are in sight. They have their cannons all lined up and the men are armed and ready. A creature is spotted in the sky! It begins to swoop down! An order to fire goes out. A hail of gunfire and cannonballs smash into the creature! The dragon comes crashing to the ground! VICTORY! Vive la France! Wine and French whores all around!
.
Napoleon will get to choose the battlefield, thanks to his vastly superior moblity and calvery screen. The Darkspawn took a entire year to Denerim, which is less then 500 miles away from Ostagar according to a map from the tabeltop RPG.

The Grand Armee can easily cross that distance in less 1/4 time while facing far greater resistance from Cossacks, weather, poor supply lines, Russian partisans, and unruly Prussia on its back. Which is far greater resistence then the Darkspawn took threw squabbling and ineffecutal Frelden resistence.

[Forum Explorer]

Fighting demons would be terrifying for anyone from our world from that period of time. It wouldn't take much to break the army, excepecially when the Archdemon shows up.

If they can get some locals to explain what's going on they might pull it off but just by themselves they will take massive casualties and go home. Where Napolean would rule for the rest of his life.

[Talkkno]

Fighting demons would be terrifying for anyone from our world from that period of time. It wouldn't take much to break the army, excepecially when the Archdemon shows up.

Napoleon ripped shirt was enough to rally his nation and people to his side for his 100 days, I'm sure they'll manage just fine against the darkspawn after gathering information from locals and a few skirmishes.

[Forum Explorer]

Napoleon ripped shirt was enough to rally his nation and people to his side for his 100 days, I'm sure they'll manage just fine against the darkspawn after gathering information from locals and a few skirmishes.

Sorry can you give me a link to this story/situation (what word do you use for that?) Its sounds intreasting and I've never heard of it before.

[Giggling Ghast]

The Darkspawn took a entire year to Denerim, which is less then 500 miles away from Ostagar according to a map from the tabeltop RPG.

Not really. After Ostagar, the darkspawn spent months moving the bulk of their forces through the Deep Roads and sending raiding parties out across Ferelden. Once the Archdemon came above ground, they marched on Denerim pretty quickly.

[Talkkno]

Sorry can you give me a link to this story/situation (what word do you use for that?) Its sounds intreasting and I've never heard of it before.
Not sure on the ripped shirt part, but he did something to that effect.

Look at the wiki article and this is the quote.
"Here I am. Kill your Emperor, if you wish."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napoleon_I_of_France#cite_note-127


Not really. After Ostagar, the darkspawn spent months moving the bulk of their forces through the Deep Roads and sending raiding parties out across Ferelden. Once the Archdemon came above ground, they marched on Denerim pretty quickly.
Then it all Napoleon needs to do is win one major engagement, as the Darkspawn will take a long time to replace their numbers, giving ample time for Grey Wardens to slay the Archdemon.

Napoleon's calvery enables him pretty much runs circles around them, so he simply needs to find a favorable battlefield, fight, inflict massinve damage to the horde, retreat, and repeat, and it shoudln't take too long to widdle the horde nothing, while the Darkspawn spend months rebuilding their numbers, enough time for the Grey Wardens to come into the picture.

[Giggling Ghast]

The OP specified that outside forces are not a factor in this battle. Napoleon only has his own army to rely on.

[Talkkno]

The OP specified that outside forces are not a factor in this battle. Napoleon only has his own army to rely on.
The OP only states Ferelden's forces aren't avaiable, we know their were tens of thousands orielisians on the border with Grey Wardens waiting for the OK to pass the border.

[paddyfool]

commanded by arguably the best general since Julius Caesar

Debatable. Highly charismatic, and skilled, yes. But ultimately, if you judge him by his results, his losses were devastating. In 1812, he had his grand armée of 600,000, and still failed to conquer Russia, arguably due to his unwillingness to commit the Guard at Borodino which allowed the Russians to regroup when he could have destroyed their army and won the campaign then and there. This classic graph shows what he did to that great army - the pink line(s) show the army marching out, and the black line(s) show it returning. He lost the rest:


http://www.edwardtufte.com/tufte/graphics/poster_OrigMinard.gif

EDIT: Larger image here (may be a bit wide for the screen)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/29/Minard.png

[Zmflavius]

Sure, when they see it coming in for an attack, they open fire on the Archdemon. But can they really do a lot of damage? Correct me if I'm wrong, but were cannons in the early 18th century so accurate that they can pick off a fast-moving, flying target easily? Were muskets from that time period similarly as accurate, as well as significantly deadlier than arrows? I've seen the Archdemon get peppered with arrows and keep going. You mentioned that you can harm the Archdemon with a sword, Warty, and that's true. But it withstands A LOT of hits with a sword, even still.

More likely the Archdemon endures some damage but manages to strafe the front lines with flame, and dozens of men in tightly-packed formations die in an instant. None of these soliders have any resistance to the Archdemon's breath weapon.

Speaking from a purely technological standpoint, while cannon and muskets were inaccurate, firing strategy was completely dependent on volleys of musket fire, which ensured that something would hit. Same for cannon. Likewise, dealing with dragonbreath, I would imagine, would be similar to dealing with grapeshot.

Morale of course, is a completely different can of worms.

[Irbis]

Ferelden held with 10.000 soldires, IIRC. Napoleon has 60 times that.

Poisoned blood? Non-issue when it is 100 meters away. It might become issue in bayonet combat, but even then, it has to spray some 2 meters.

French aren't dumb, they have field medics and doctors, they'll figure out something is wrong with blood quickly. I think they will create Grey Wardens the same way they were created during the first Blight (unless that needs some special knowledge to happen).

Dragon? It went down to one man with sword cutting its wing. French bring him down, then it becomes a big target for a big amount of cannonballs. It can respawn, but not quickly enough.

The only way darkspawn win, is by breaking the enemy, but in 1812, we're talking about soldiers who stood through point-blank cannon fire because Napoleon told them to. He wasn't defeated up to this point.