PF Summoner Help

[TheSilverKnight]

EDIT: Jump to Post #9 for my current questions everything in first post has been answered.

Hey guys. Haven't been on here in ages. Anywho.
I will be joining a PF game next month and plan to play a summoner. However I have a question regarding Permanency and Magic fang(Greater) on a Eldion.

1. The listed cost for Permanency on Greater Magic fang is 7500 gp... Is this different for higher +'s on Magic Fang. Simply put would a +2,+3,+4 or +5 version cost more to Permanify(sp?)

2. Can a Permanency be overridden or upgraded? For instance if I at a lower level put a Permanency Greater magic fang of +1 across all Natural weapons on an Eldion. Can I later have the spell recast on a specific natural weapon(say 2 claws for instance) and improve or override it to a higher +mod? Thus a +5 replacing a +1

Extra: The Evoultion build I am looking at Would be a Pounce build with lots of claws and a single set of arms with a weapon. Now from what I have seen a Greatsword seems to be the best option for that set of arms but I was wondering if there were anyway a Two-weapon fighting build would out damage that with minimal losses. I was thinking Bastard swords just for damage but that would always be at a -4 penalty per attack. But that would require at least 5th level for the feats and the BaB to even out to a +0 per attack before Str. Would this be a better build than a single Greatsword? Is -4 A small enough Penalty that it will be ignorable at a reasonable level?

Sorry for the long-winded post PLZ Help.

[Re'ozul]

1. I don't think so as it is Caster Level dependant. If you pay someone to cast the spell though, they would charge more, since their Caster Level is higher.

2. You can always dispel it. In any case you would need to pay for the permanency again with the new value (can become costly).

On the build I have nothing to say other than, I like my summoners crazy and creepy. This led to me basically building this (http://us-p.vclart.net/vcl/Artists/Tina-Leyk/winged_xeno_painting_small.jpg) the only time i played one so far.

[NamelessNPC]

If you use TWF then you won't use pounce, because it only applies to natural attacks. So you pretty much have to change your eidolon completely. If you are looking for damage I'd say greatsword+power attack is the best way to go.

[Infernalbargain]

If you use TWF then you won't use pounce, because it only applies to natural attacks. So you pretty much have to change your eidolon completely. If you are looking for damage I'd say greatsword+power attack is the best way to go.

Pounce allows a FRA.


1. The listed cost for Permanency on Greater Magic fang is 7500 gp... Is this different for higher +'s on Magic Fang. Simply put would a +2,+3,+4 or +5 version cost more to Permanify(sp?)

No.


2. Can a Permanency be overridden or upgraded? For instance if I at a lower level put a Permanency Greater magic fang of +1 across all Natural weapons on an Eldion. Can I later have the spell recast on a specific natural weapon(say 2 claws for instance) and improve or override it to a higher +mod? Thus a +5 replacing a +1

Yes. Because you will have competing bonuses for the same attack, and thus the higher bonus will be used.


Would this be a better build than a single Greatsword? Is -4 A small enough Penalty that it will be ignorable at a reasonable level?

I personally don't like using weapons with the Eidolon. However, one build would be to pick up a bunch of large Kukris (or light Picks), arms evolution several times, and pounce. Make sure to pick up Multiweapon fighting. The reason why light weapons become more attractive for an eidolon than two handed weapons is that the difference between a 1 handed and 2 handed weapon matters a lot more when you can get a lot more arms. For example if you go half-elf, by level 8 you'll have 13 evos which can be put into 4 arms (1 point used for pounce, 4 for martial profiency). So you can choose between 8 Light Picks or 4 Greatswords. Also sticking to light weapons makes the multiweapon fighting penalties less severe.

[TheSilverKnight]

Pounce allows a FRA.



No.



Yes. Because you will have competing bonuses for the same attack, and thus the higher bonus will be used.



I personally don't like using weapons with the Eidolon. However, one build would be to pick up a bunch of large Kukris (or light Picks), arms evolution several times, and pounce. Make sure to pick up Multiweapon fighting. The reason why light weapons become more attractive for an eidolon than two handed weapons is that the difference between a 1 handed and 2 handed weapon matters a lot more when you can get a lot more arms. For example if you go half-elf, by level 8 you'll have 13 evos which can be put into 4 arms (1 point used for pounce, 4 for martial profiency). So you can choose between 8 Light Picks or 4 Greatswords. Also sticking to light weapons makes the multiweapon fighting penalties less severe.

Thanks. At higher levels with large and MF bonuses the naturals will be doing most of the damage but wanted at least 1 set of arms to carry a good set of weps so a Cold Iron and what not can be kept in storage for DR mobs.

I just like the idea of Dual Wielding and Katanas(Bastard Swords) Are my favorite basic weapons. So by level 5 before Str I see with DW Katanas. +1/-3 Prime Hand +1 Off hand if 2 feast are EWP(Bastard Sword) and TWF.
With Enlarge person or Large evo later in game Attacks with those will be doing 2d8+Str+Enhancement x 2 swords vs A Greatsword Witch would be 3d6=Str and a 1/2 + Enhancement.

I am just looking for the most damage with the least feats and most chance to hit.

Also 4 Greatswords would do Way more raw damage than the 8 picks, and only be short by 2 Str mods(8 str mods vs 4 Str and a 1/2 = 6) So before Str picks look like min raw 8-64 vs 12-72 on greatswords. Picks would Trumph if there were crits. Its just statistically a better chance you will land 4 attacks over 8.

[Infernalbargain]

Thanks. At higher levels with large and MF bonuses the naturals will be doing most of the damage but wanted at least 1 set of arms to carry a good set of weps so a Cold Iron and what not can be kept in storage for DR mobs.

I just like the idea of Dual Wielding and Katanas(Bastard Swords) Are my favorite basic weapons. So by level 5 before Str I see with DW Katanas. +1/-3 Prime Hand +1 Off hand if 2 feast are EWP(Bastard Sword) and TWF.
With Enlarge person or Large evo later in game Attacks with those will be doing 2d8+Str+Enhancement x 2 swords vs A Greatsword Witch would be 3d6=Str and a 1/2 + Enhancement.

I am just looking for the most damage with the least feats and most chance to hit.

Also 4 Greatswords would do Way more raw damage than the 8 picks, and only be short by 2 Str mods(8 str mods vs 4 Str and a 1/2 = 6) So before Str picks look like min raw 8-64 vs 12-72 on greatswords. Picks would Trumph if there were crits. Its just statistically a better chance you will land 4 attacks over 8.

The picks will have a +2 to hit over the greatswords because they're light. If you're going against high AC beasts, then the greatswords will be better. If you're going lower AC monsters then the picks will out do the greatswords. Also picks have the advantage of spreading out damage if necessary (Dazing Assault). The effectiveness is variable on AC because we're looking at something that is nonlinearly dependent on the to-hit. An important factor that might tilt things back in favor of the greatswords is considering haste and enlarge person.

Hmm, an eidolon wielding a dozen scorpion whips seems rather amusing.

[Saph]

I wrote a summoner guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=184592) a few weeks back - see if it helps!

[TheSilverKnight]

I wrote a summoner guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=184592) a few weeks back - see if it helps!

Yes I read it multiple times its a big help. Just trying to Theory craft now to Make it a Tad more my own while still being competitive without hitting a usefulness ceiling.

[TheSilverKnight]

Ok. Have actually started campaigne and am feeling good but have some issues that the SRD or APG are fuzzy on and would like clarification.

1st My general Build
Half-Elf +2 Cha Alt Favored Class Summoner and Alt to multi-talented for spell triggers.
Fey Bloodline(Custom from DM all Party Members have a bloodline) +2 Cha +2 Dex 1/day Sp Charm Person and Hypnotism. Low-Light, +4 Will saves, +2 Use Magic Device
So 1st Level Stats are in Order Str, Dex, Con, Int, Wis, Cha. 10, 16, 16, 14, 12, 22. Preassigned Stat selection Given was 18, 16, 16, 14, 12, 10

1. Eidalon skills confuse me immensely. I understand that they have the few class skills and you can choose 4 more to be class skills at 1st. My question is. Is the 4 listed in skills in the table how many skill points it has? Because the text block is confusing. If that is the case fine 4 skill points. My guess is that the 4 is derived from the 6+int mod listed afterward which would be 6-2=4(Yes?)

2. The SRD lists "All natural attacks are made using the eidolon’s full base attack bonus unless otherwise noted (such as in the case of secondary attacks.)" and "A number of evolutions grant the eidolon additional natural attacks. Natural attacks listed as primary are made using the eidolon’s full base attack bonus and add the eidolon’s Strength modifier on damage rolls. Natural attacks listed as secondary are made using the eidolon’s base attack bonus – 5 and add 1/2 the eidolon’s Strength modifier on damage rolls (if positive).". So if I read this correctly My Eidalon at 1st has a bite and 2 claws with my build they would all be at +3(+1 bab + 2 str) on a full attack with no penalty?
What confuses is me is at 7th they Gain Multi-attack if they have 3 or more natural attacks. So is the purpose of this ONLY to benefit evolutions specifically listed as secondary attacks or Eidalons using weapons along with naturals? I.e. Pincers or Tail Slap? Since in the stat block of Claw, Bite or Slam they are all noted as being PRIMARY attacks, as such receiving full BAB if I read correctly.

3. Lastly due to a backstory element of my Character I have a Daily (-5)-(+0) Con Penalty. Thus resulting in between -1 and -2 HP per level changing each day. To balance this I was given 2 extra feats at 1st. The first 2 seemed obvious to me. Spell Focus(Conjuration) and Augmented summoning. The third I wasn't sure on and went with extra traits. So what I need to know is, was this a good 3rd choice? And what traits should I choose? I have permission from the DM to Tweak what I have already chosen. He also allowed me to break the Extra Traits feat rule of selecting a trait from the same list as I already have a trait in. For sake of selection my backstory would have me as a scholarly trained person with good arcane training leading up until the even that cases my Daily Con penalty. So basiclly anything other than traits that either put me as rich or as impoverished are a go.
What I chose was; Natural born leader(will be allowed to pick up leadership at appropriate level, mainly so I can have a cohort that is a craft whore to get me scrolls and maybe wands or rods on the cheap), Theoretical Magician(+2 spellcraft), Deft Dodger(+1 reflex) and Reactionary(+2 imitative)
So what I am thinking is that Deft Dodger and Theoretical Magician could be traded as they aren't really super needed and in place of them likely, Hedge Magician(-5% cost when crafting[I plan to take craft wondrous as my 3rd level feat]) and maybe Magical Talent(1/day 0-level spell from another class[not sure what cure minor maybe?]) Any other suggestions PLZ!

Sorry in advance for MEGA wall of text. Also, thanks in advance for replies. Will also edit first post to point people to this one for current questions.

[Mojo_Rat]

1) unless the eidolon int changes you have the sp listed I'n the chart.
2) they have attacks that are secondary, mainly tentacles wings and tail. multi attack affects these and if manufactured weapons are used.

[TheSilverKnight]

1) unless the eidolon int changes you have the sp listed I'n the chart.
2) they have attacks that are secondary, mainly tentacles wings and tail. multi attack affects these and if manufactured weapons are used.

K thanks.

Anyone suggestions for number 3?

[cfalcon]

1. Eidalon skills confuse me immensely. I understand that they have the few class skills and you can choose 4 more to be class skills at 1st. My question is. Is the 4 listed in skills in the table how many skill points it has? Because the text block is confusing. If that is the case fine 4 skill points. My guess is that the 4 is derived from the 6+int mod listed afterward which would be 6-2=4(Yes?)

Yes, absolutely. Outsiders have 6 skill points as their baseline, and the Eidolon, despite not being called out as one, is based on this.


Skills: This lists the eidolon’s total skill ranks. An eidolon can assign skill ranks to any skill, but it must possess the appropriate appendages to use some skills. Eidolons with Intelligence scores above the base value modify these totals as normal (an eidolon receives a number of skill ranks equal to 6 + its Intelligence modifier per HD). An eidolon cannot have more ranks in a skill than it has Hit Dice. Eidolon skill ranks are set once chosen, even if the creature changes when the summoner gains a new level.

So as was pointed out, you use the chart unless you boost the Int.


2. The SRD lists "All natural attacks are made using the eidolon’s full base attack bonus unless otherwise noted (such as in the case of secondary attacks.)" and "A number of evolutions grant the eidolon additional natural attacks. Natural attacks listed as primary are made using the eidolon’s full base attack bonus and add the eidolon’s Strength modifier on damage rolls. Natural attacks listed as secondary are made using the eidolon’s base attack bonus – 5 and add 1/2 the eidolon’s Strength modifier on damage rolls (if positive).". So if I read this correctly My Eidalon at 1st has a bite and 2 claws with my build they would all be at +3(+1 bab + 2 str) on a full attack with no penalty?

100% correct. Monsters work like this in Pathfinder, and the Eidolon uses many of these ideas. This has been criticized as being too strong at low levels. Note that if you start with a quadruped, you'll also have pounce.

I've played a low level summoner in org play, and the Eidolon is a real blast (so is the summoner in general). However, he starts out very fragile- his hit points are not affected by the "take max" rule by default (you can houserule it otherwise, if you like, but by rules the Eidolon often falls over until like level 3).


What confuses is me is at 7th they Gain Multi-attack if they have 3 or more natural attacks. So is the purpose of this ONLY to benefit evolutions specifically listed as secondary attacks or Eidalons using weapons along with naturals? I.e. Pincers or Tail Slap? Since in the stat block of Claw, Bite or Slam they are all noted as being PRIMARY attacks, as such receiving full BAB if I read correctly.

You are correct, it only helps you if you actually have some secondary attacks. If you build nothing but primary attacks each level (and at low levels you generally should), then you have no need of multiattack and it just sits there and doesn't help you. Past the first few freebies, however, your primary attacks become expensive- you'll need limbs (2) plus claws (1), so 3 evo points to grow two arms or forelimbs and put claws on them. OR you could spend those three points for two arms and a slam, and get only ONE primary attack (but it'll be a d8 instead of a d6). But when you go looking for secondary attacks, you'll see stuff like wings (2) plus wing buffet (1), so 3 eve points to grow wings (and get a flight speed) plus two secondary attacks. Versus the new forelimbs and claws, that's basically "two of your attacks are at -2 to hit, but you can fly" (once you have multiattack). Additionally, some of the secondary attacks are cheap the first time- for instance, 1 evo point always buys you a tentacle attack. So for those same three points that buy you two primary attacks, you could get three secondary.

If you generally think this makes the primary attacks no-brainers until late in the game, you are mostly correct. The early Eidolon table had no limit on how many attacks you could purchase, and many of the builds were degenerate pouncing full attack beasts from hell. So the max attack column limits how many you can purchase, and so you likely want quality (primary attack) over quantity (secondary attack). Personally, I think you can get some nice utility by taking that -2 and forking over for a secondary in a couple places.


3. Lastly due to a backstory element of my Character I have a Daily (-5)-(+0) Con Penalty. Thus resulting in between -1 and -2 HP per level changing each day. To balance this I was given 2 extra feats at 1st. The first 2 seemed obvious to me. Spell Focus(Conjuration) and Augmented summoning.

Augment Summoning 100% does NOT apply to the Eidolon. The devs stated that it WAS intended to function with the Summon Monster SLA (the one that is exclusive with your Eidolon), even though by rules it only works with summon monster spells. If they haven't errated it officially yet, it would be a fully reasonable ruling to have it work with SLAs. But if you are applying that stuff to your Eidolon, that's a serious upswing in power likely caused by a misread.



The third I wasn't sure on and went with extra traits. So what I need to know is, was this a good 3rd choice? And what traits should I choose? I have permission from the DM to Tweak what I have already chosen. He also allowed me to break the Extra Traits feat rule of selecting a trait from the same list as I already have a trait in. For sake of selection my backstory would have me as a scholarly trained person with good arcane training leading up until the even that cases my Daily Con penalty.

Your arcane training was so good that on some days you have a -5 to your Con? That's not good! :P

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits




So basiclly anything other than traits that either put me as rich or as impoverished are a go.
What I chose was; Natural born leader(will be allowed to pick up leadership at appropriate level, mainly so I can have a cohort that is a craft whore to get me scrolls and maybe wands or rods on the cheap), Theoretical Magician(+2 spellcraft), Deft Dodger(+1 reflex) and Reactionary(+2 imitative)

Ok, already you are stepping on stuff.

Theoretical Magician is "Magic" Category.
Deft Dodger is "Combat" Category.
Reactionary is "Combat" Category
Natural-Born Leader isn't listed- is "Social" category.

Anyway, you can't have two from the same category. Of the combat category, "Reactionary" is probably your best bet, though see below.

Ignore that advice and keep them both if you have waived the limitation on trait types.


So what I am thinking is that Deft Dodger and Theoretical Magician could be traded as they aren't really super needed and in place of them likely, Hedge Magician(-5% cost when crafting[I plan to take craft wondrous as my 3rd level feat]) and maybe Magical Talent(1/day 0-level spell from another class[not sure what cure minor maybe?]) Any other suggestions PLZ!

There is no cure minor in Pathfinder (and adding it in is a serious power boost, because clerics have infinite use of 0 level spells- their new version, stabilize, doesn't automatically max people on hit points after each encounter as cure minor would if legal).

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/race-traits/elven-reflexes-half-elf

This does NOT stack with reactionary, but is a racial trait that gives you the same thing. It's mostly there as a perk for elves and half elves so that they can buy the ever popular +2 to init trait while still using the combat field for something else.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/magic-traits/desperate-focus
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/magic-traits/focused-mind

This +2 trait bonus to concentration checks can really help you cast defensively. That being said, casting defensively isn't that big of a deal for you, all things considered. Both of these are "Magic" traits, and both give a trait bonus (aka, it wouldn't stack to four even if you could take them both).


I do not think Hedge Magician is that great for you, unless you plan on crafting a lot of things. Since you plan to have a henchman who does the crafting, it seems the benefit would be minor.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/faith-traits/indomitable-faith
This +1 will save trait can be pretty good, because a failed will save often turns your Eidolon off, depending. (faith category)

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/faith-traits/sacred-touch
The ability to stabilize someone with a touch is better than casting stabilize (which you can't normally do) because you don't have to cast. Additionally, you normally have extra actions to spare because of the Eidolon. Still, it won't come up that often (hopefully). (faith category)

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/magic-traits/diabolical-dabbler
+1 hit point per die for a summoned creature isn't bad, but it only works on fiendish ones summoned by spells. Since the Summon Monster SLA was mostly intended to work, maybe your DM will allow it.

Conspiracy Hunter (check the database) can give you +1 to a skill and it is always considered a class skill for you on Perception or Diplomacy, both of which can be very good. Perception in particular is amazing. It also can work with Bluff, Knowledge (local), Sense Motive, or Stealth (you only pick one). It's a campaign trait, so it may not be allowed. However, if you can get your DM to go for a trait that gives you this bonus to perception, you should likely consider it, assuming he rolls for perception normally to start most encounters. I won't normally be bringing up campaign traits unless you could use them as a template like this.

Heirloom Weapon is generally very powerful. You may not see your character attacking a lot, but at low level you'll have far more available turns than spells. Heirloom weapon starts you with a masterwork something, and grants you proficiency in just THAT weapon. If you start with, say, a longbow, you'll probably have cause to use it at low level.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/equipment-traits/heirloom-weapon
(equipment category)

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/regional-traits/genie-caller-regional-qadira
This is a regional trait, and may not be available- but what it does is let you, once a day, have caster level +2 used when casting a summoning spell. If you don't plan to actually cast summoning spells, don't do this, of course, but the spells are almost useless at first level without it, and it will help you out a lot at low levels. By rules this doesn't work with your SLA, but those creatures last for a MINUTE per level instead of a ROUND per level, so Who Cares :P

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/regional-traits/wealthy-dabbler-regional-taldor
This is like the 0 level spell thing you mentioned, except it is limited to arcane, but it is two of them. I don't think it's all that great either, given that you do, in fact, get cantrips on your own!

In general, http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/traits-db

[TheSilverKnight]

Augment Summoning 100% does NOT apply to the Eidolon. The devs stated that it WAS intended to function with the Summon Monster SLA (the one that is exclusive with your Eidolon), even though by rules it only works with summon monster spells. If they haven't errated it officially yet, it would be a fully reasonable ruling to have it work with SLAs. But if you are applying that stuff to your Eidolon, that's a serious upswing in power likely caused by a misread.

I know and only intend to use it for the SLA. Howvere it does apply to the Eidalon if you use the spell Summon Eidalon. Witch as soon as it is available I plan to get a wand of it....


Your arcane training was so good that on some days you have a -5 to your Con? That's not good! :P

Backstory. Me and my husband were both nearly finished our schooling when... BBEG comes and releases a plague. This particular plague targets only men and ultimately ends in death. Seeing no other choice when hubby gets the plague we have a spark of genius/insanity. We use our Arcane training to summon a weak outsider and put hubbys soul into it. Outsiders soul is dismissed hubbys body dies but he lives on. CATCH! In some twist this effect needs a battery. A sizable chunk of soul in fact. My soul... Thus (-5)-(+0) Con penalty. As balance I get 2 feats and if I can somehow find another power source I lose the penalty and keep the feats.



Ok, already you are stepping on stuff.

As noted was allowed to ignore that.


There is no cure minor in Pathfinder (and adding it in is a serious power boost, because clerics have infinite use of 0 level spells- their new version, stabilize, doesn't automatically max people on hit points after each encounter as cure minor would if legal).

Some 3.5 mixing. We have no dedicated healer and a large party. Personally I would argue against it as I like to rules lawyer.


http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/race-traits/elven-reflexes-half-elf

Awesome will take that instead of reactionary and than take a combat one without breaking any rules.


http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/magic-traits/desperate-focus
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/magic-traits/focused-mind

This +2 trait bonus to concentration checks can really help you cast defensively. That being said, casting defensively isn't that big of a deal for you, all things considered. Both of these are "Magic" traits, and both give a trait bonus (aka, it wouldn't stack to four even if you could take them both).

Whats between me and baddies while I cast...? Two Paladins a barbarian a favored soul. and a Sorcerer blasting in the back... I think I should be fine.


I do not think Hedge Magician is that great for you, unless you plan on crafting a lot of things. Since you plan to have a henchman who does the crafting, it seems the benefit would be minor.

Cohort won't be till at least 7th and his focus will first be on scrolls then rods then wands after that depending on the party needs Arms and armor will likely follow and Staves for late game.


http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/faith-traits/indomitable-faith
This +1 will save trait can be pretty good, because a failed will save often turns your Eidolon off, depending. (faith category)

Intresting but I alredy have +4 will save from Fey bloodline and a 12 in wisdom and its the Summoners GOOD save so no worries honestly.


http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/magic-traits/diabolical-dabbler
+1 hit point per die for a summoned creature isn't bad, but it only works on fiendish ones summoned by spells. Since the Summon Monster SLA was mostly intended to work, maybe your DM will allow it.

Up against Evil or Neutral baddies 95% of the time. The smite from celestial summons will trump the HP on fiendish...


Heirloom Weapon is generally very powerful. You may not see your character attacking a lot, but at low level you'll have far more available turns than spells. Heirloom weapon starts you with a masterwork something, and grants you proficiency in just THAT weapon. If you start with, say, a longbow, you'll probably have cause to use it at low level.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/equipment-traits/heirloom-weapon

More like it. At low levels this will give me something to do since my buff pool isn't great yet and will make sure I have something to do every round.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Good suggestions. Anyone have any candidates for a 5th level feat? 7th will be leadership after that I have no clue.

Also for fun I have decided my Eidalon will be taking the Overrun tree and Charge through so by 11th about his opener will be. Pounce>Overrun target in path(hope it exceeds by 5)>AoO on prone target>Full attack on pounce target.

EDIT: Since the heirloom weapon is masterwork can it be used as the base weapon for enchanting. Since the trait only give proficiency with that specific weapon not to others of its type. So eventually it would be a wasted trait since I wouldn't be able to use any other longbow.