Did I break anything?

[zephyrkinetic]

I'll put all this behind a spoiler tag, because the post got pretty lengthy pretty fast. The short version is this: I don't think I'm technically breaking any rules (save one, see below), but I want the GitP public opinion. Am I playing unfairly? Should I nerf my character?

So, my wife is DM-ing a 3.5 edition game. She's going high-magic with everything, and insisted we play off-the-wall races and whatnot. We always incorporate a few additional role-playing elements (like randomly generated traits and flaws) and she's leveling us super-fast.

All that said, I've got a dilemma of sorts. I've got way more experience playing (about ten years to everyone else's one or two years, tops) and therefore know a lot more about character tweaking, and equipment that exists, and so on. I try very hard to put people into the right enchantments and spells and equipment, even going so far as to mention certain feats and the like when they would help out. The way I see it, the whole party needs to be awesome, not just my character.

I had initially started off playing an Azer Fighter/Battlesmith (Races of Stone PC). He rolled up some pretty horrendous character traits, though, and I ended up hating the guy. So he got killed. My new character is as follows:

He's at 13th level currently. 4 Rogue, 6 Nightsong Enforcer, +3 Level adjustment for a lycanthrope template. His base creature was human, and (this is the one rule I know I'm breaking, but with the DM's full approval) the base "animal" is a Blink Dog.

I won't go into every detail on my character sheet, but that puts my Dex at 26, and my Reflex save at +30. I burned two feats (Assume Supernatural ability, x2) so that I could use blink and dimension door, but the feats required I make a 19 Will save or the ability wouldn't work. So, I spent a bunch of gold on items and whatnot so that I could be guaranteed those Will saves (Crit fails notwithstanding). We played last night, and we ended up killing two Huge green dragons. It's possible that she wasn't playing the dragons to their full advantage - I didn't see a lot of breath weapons, or wing attacking, or spells, mostly just claw/claw/bite/wing/wing/tail attacks. But still: two? And I got the killing blows on both of them. There's a half-celestial paladin and a dwarven cleric in the party as well, and though they helped considerably, I know I was doing most of the damage.

Now, a couple of specifics: If one is grappled (say, by a Huge green dragon), could one dimension door out of that grapple? She ruled yes, but only after my pressing the point. Also, is blink (as the blink dog's ability, not the spell) a thing that has to be reactivated every round? Or is it on until you turn it off?

Ok, that's an insanely long post. I don't want to go into more detail just yet, or I'm just going to generate a bunch of tl;drs. If anybody wants to know more - though I can't imagine why - just ask me.

Mostly, I'm looking for a general consensus: did I follow the rules correctly? Am I min-maxing or being a total munchkin? I don't think I'm doing anything the character wouldn't, but I have a vested interest in fluffing whatever I need to make him more awesome, y'know?

[The Glyphstone]

Well, to start with, where are your Magical Beast hit dice for the Blink Dog?

[zephyrkinetic]

I-
!

You're right. That's... wow. Ok, so that's what? I'm always terrible at this. They have 4 HD, and the Level adjustment listing in the MM says +2 (cohort). So, should I be less two levels? Or what?

[grimbold]

i am fairly sure it is on until you turn it off but i am not positive

[zephyrkinetic]

i am fairly sure it is on until you turn it off but i am not positive

Ok, thanks for that. I was playing it that way, but she thinks - and rightly so, I imagine - that it's a little broke for me to just all the time have sneak attacks and all the time have a 50% chance to be missed applied. And all that walking through solid matter business, too.

[The Glyphstone]

Are you taking into account the 20% miss chance you have on all your own attacks? Your 3/4 movement speed?

Also, if you've got the Blink Dog HD, you'd be 4 levels lower - rogue 4/Nightsong Enforcer 2/Blink Dog 4, with +3 LA from natural lycanthrope.


I'd also wonder what your HP total is, and AC. The dragons may have just rolled really, really badly.

[zephyrkinetic]

Are you taking into account the 20% miss chance you have on all your own attacks? Your 3/4 movement speed?

Also, if you've got the Blink Dog HD, you'd be 4 levels lower - rogue 4/Nightsong Enforcer 2/Blink Dog 4, with +3 LA from natural lycanthrope.


I'd also wonder what your HP total is, and AC. The dragons may have just rolled really, really badly.

I was not taking the 20% miss chance into account. And I thought the 3/4 movement speed was only if I were moving through solid material.

So I take all 4 HD? I thought there was some kind of formula involved when determining ECL to make it less than the creature's full HD. I may have to revisit savage species.
Or... wait, is that part of the lycanthrope template?
Also, he's not natural but afflicted. There were some mind flayers, and an experiment, and... well, let's just say a wizard did it.

HP is 86, AC is 31.

[Urpriest]

I was not taking the 20% miss chance into account. And I thought the 3/4 movement speed was only if I were moving through solid material.

So I take all 4 HD? I thought there was some kind of formula involved when determining ECL to make it less than the creature's full HD. I may have to revisit savage species.
Or... wait, is that part of the lycanthrope template?

HP is 86, AC is 31.

Lycanthropes add together the HD of the base animal and the base creature, so in your case you add the HD from Blink Dog to those from class levels. Your LA is determined by the Lycanthrope template, Lycanthropes ignore the LA from the base animal because animals generally aren't playable and so have LA -. I don't know where you got the idea that ECL is less than a creature's full HD, it's always equal or more.

[zephyrkinetic]

Lycanthropes add together the HD of the base animal and the base creature, so in your case you add the HD from Blink Dog to those from class levels. Your LA is determined by the Lycanthrope template, Lycanthropes ignore the LA from the base animal because animals generally aren't playable and so have LA -. I don't know where you got the idea that ECL is less than a creature's full HD, it's always equal or more.

Mkay. So, LA should be 7 and not 3. Blink Dog does in fact have a Level Adjustment listed, but it says (cohort) next to it, so I imagine it's irrelevant. I'm also not sure what I was thinking with ECL. It doesn't make any sense at all for it to be less, now that you point it out.

So, short answer: I broke things, but only because I was actually playing a 17th level character with fewer penalties than I should have been applying.

Now the real problem: I'm not just explaining my mistakes to my DM, but to my wife. I'm glad we bought a comfortable couch.

[Urpriest]

Mkay. So, LA should be 7 and not 3. Blink Dog does in fact have a Level Adjustment listed, but it says (cohort) next to it, so I imagine it's irrelevant. I'm also not sure what I was thinking with ECL. It doesn't make any sense at all for it to be less, now that you point it out.

So, short answer: I broke things, but only because I was actually playing a 17th level character with fewer penalties than I should have been applying.

Now the real problem: I'm not just explaining my mistakes to my DM, but to my wife. I'm glad we bought a comfortable couch.

No no no. LA is still 3 if you're a natural lycanthrope (note that a real stickler of a GM might insist that natural lycanthropes have to have a "humanoid" hit die before their character levels, but that's verging into the "stupid RAW nobody enforces" territory).

Your level adjustment is 3. You have four Magical Beast hit dice from blink dog. Your ECL is then Class Levels+4 HD+3 LA, so yeah, you were playing a 17th level character. It sounds like you forgot to even apply the hit dice though, so you were more like an illegal 13th level character.

[The Glyphstone]

:smalltongue::smallamused:

Then let's definitely not bring up that an Adult Green (the smallest Huge-sized Green) hits with 85% of its attacks versus you (they can easily afford Multiattack/Improved Multiattack with feats), for a total of 75 average damage. Allowing for 50% miss chance, it's still dealing 32 damage/round with its full attacks to you - did you trade full attacks for more than three rounds versus the thing?

[zephyrkinetic]

No no no. LA is still 3 if you're a natural lycanthrope (note that a real stickler of a GM might insist that natural lycanthropes have to have a "humanoid" hit die before their character levels, but that's verging into the "stupid RAW nobody enforces" territory).

Your level adjustment is 3. You have four Magical Beast hit dice from blink dog. Your ECL is then Class Levels+4 HD+3 LA, so yeah, you were playing a 17th level character. It sounds like you forgot to even apply the hit dice though, so you were more like an illegal 13th level character.

Ok, so I'll adjust my HP accordingly. Or rather, not really adjust it much, since I had class levels I wasn't supposed to have, and therefore had some HP from them. I'll take the wrong dice penalty as part of my penance for screwing up.

I also just re-read the lycanthrope template entry in the MM. It's all right there, and not even confusingly worded. I'm just an idiot, it seems. At least my LA is only +2 for being afflicted, and not natural.

[Cog]

Also, keep in mind that the Lycanthrope template was created around Animal-types. There's a certain consistency within that type, and while it's certainly not perfect, better stats, attacks, and size tend to be proportionate with HD - and so Lycanthropy comes with a flat LA.

Now you're using that to pick up a Magical Beast's capabilities instead. That comes with better BAB, better HD, and in this case, some potent SU abilities (or just access to them, since you still spent a feat). Blink Dogs don't have as strong a set of ability adjustments as compared to 4-HD animals, but that doesn't mean it's going to be a fair trade.

As for the movement speed: when you're ethereal, you move at half speed. Half the time you are, and half not, which averages out to an overall 3/4. It'd be 1/2 speed when moving through solid objects, because if any of that time was spent nonethereal, you'd be shunted anyway.

[zephyrkinetic]

:smalltongue::smallamused:

Then let's definitely not bring up that an Adult Green (the smallest Huge-sized Green) hits with 85% of its attacks versus you (they can easily afford Multiattack/Improved Multiattack with feats), for a total of 75 average damage. Allowing for 50% miss chance, it's still dealing 32 damage/round with its full attacks to you - did you trade full attacks for more than three rounds versus the thing?

No, fortunately. I was mostly hidden and doing sneak attack damage. I got grappled once, but dimension door-ed out of it. My cohorts were in the middle of the room, taking the majority of the attacks.

Like I said, I'm not entirely certain she played the dragons as dangerously as she could have.

[zephyrkinetic]

Also, keep in mind that the Lycanthrope template was created around Animal-types. There's a certain consistency within that type, and while it's certainly not perfect, better stats, attacks, and size tend to be proportionate with HD - and so Lycanthropy comes with a flat LA.

Now you're using that to pick up a Magical Beast's capabilities instead. That comes with better BAB, better HD, and in this case, some potent SU abilities (or just access to them, since you still spent a feat). Blink Dogs don't have as strong a set of ability adjustments as compared to 4-HD animals, but that doesn't mean it's going to be a fair trade.

Yeah, I knew it was a little on the heavy side, but I didn't realize it would be as awesome as it turned out. I really thought the expenditure of feats was supposed to be a balancing-enough factor.


As for the movement speed: when you're ethereal, you move at half speed. Half the time you are, and half not, which averages out to an overall 3/4. It'd be 1/2 speed when moving through solid objects, because if any of that time was spent nonethereal, you'd be shunted anyway.

Thanks. I've not really played much with the ethereal aspect of anything before, so I was unaware of the speed difference. That helps me understand much better.

[GeminiVeil]

I can't help but notice that no one answered the spoilered DD question, so I'll take a stab at it. :smallsmile:
Since it is a SU ability that can be activated as a free action, I do believe that you are able to use it to escape a grapple. Taking the wording super-literally, your equipment wouldn't go, though. lol The description says 'only the blink dog,' not 'only the blink dog and it's equipment.' I don't think any DM would do that, though.
Uh, I mean "Your opponants turn into platinum statues." >.> <.< :smallbiggrin:

[ericgrau]

For your main question: It is a challenge for DMs to create encounters that are challenging to the strongest characters yet won't kill the weaker characters. If you want an interesting, challenging game you should try to match your character's power level with others in your group. Nothing in your build seemed extremely broken so I can't say whether or not it's fine without knowing how strong the rest of the group is. You should decide that. What is munchkining for one group may be par for the course, simply trying to stay effective, in another.

For your rules questions: Blink dogs can start or stop blinking as a free action. It is otherwise the same as the spell. You can dimension door out of a grapple because it's not a spell with a somatic component (hand gestures), but it still takes a concentration check DC 20 + spell level. However, if your dimension door is a (Su) ability it requires no concentration check. Either way a blink dog's blink is a (Su) ability and could be used to escape a grapple because you're ethereal (and thus intangible) half the time.

[zephyrkinetic]

I can't help but notice that no one answered the spoilered DD question, so I'll take a stab at it. :smallsmile:
Since it is a SU ability that can be activated as a free action, I do believe that you are able to use it to escape a grapple. Taking the wording super-literally, your equipment wouldn't go, though. lol The description says 'only the blink dog,' not 'only the blink dog and it's equipment.' I don't think any DM would do that, though.

Hey, I have to show this thread to my wife later! Don't give her ideas. I demand you edit your post to say "when you dimension door out of a grapple, your opponents turn into platinum statues."

[GeminiVeil]

If it makes you feel any better, I recently had a similar situation to this with my wife. :smallsmile: Not going into details, just saying that I understand the situation.
All I can say is be up front about your mistakes, say that you will correct them, then ask her if you can make it up somehow. (in or out of game. :smallwink:)

EDIT: Although, reading the blink dog's DD again, it also says at the end "You never appear in solid objects and can act immediately after the teleport." I'm kinda curious, because that SHOULD mean that you can still do move and standard actions normally after popping out. That is a good ability. Need to work on how to get that one myself.

[zephyrkinetic]

If it makes you feel any better, I recently had a similar situation to this with my wife. :smallsmile: Not going into details, just saying that I understand the situation.
All I can say is be up front about your mistakes, say that you will correct them, then ask her if you can make it up somehow. (in or out of game. :smallwink:)

Heh. Yeah, I've already texted her. She's been very cool about it, though I wonder if there's yet another shoe to drop.