is it possible to do the tomb of horrors without a cleric?

[grimbold]

Like the title says;
I recently realized (aka mid session) that my clericless group entered the tomb of horrors (lvl 8)
would i be correct in believing that we're screwed?

[Jack_Simth]

Like the title says;
I recently realized (aka mid session) that my clericless group entered the tomb of horrors (lvl 8)
would i be correct in believing that we're screwed?
Yes, especially if your characters aren't specifically built for dismantling the Tomb. However, not necessarily any moreso than if you had entered the Tomb with a Cleric. See, the Tomb write-up (at least, the 3.5 version) lets you rest up whenever.

[Miscast_Mage]

First off, a wand of lesser vigor should take care of all your hp needs. A few scrolls of restoration should come in handy, too. This is, of course, assuming you have someone who has points in UMD.

[Psyborg]

Yes, you're screwed.

However, this has nothing whatsoever to do with your lack of a cleric.

*shudder* When unspoilered, the Tomb of Horrors- even the marginally less cruel 3.5 conversion- is a party-killer disguised as a blackly humorous joke. The kind of thing the Joker might build if he also had the IQ of a first-level wizard and a thorough understanding of how to screw with characters and players and leave them quaking nervelessly in their boots.

The original version is even worse.

Don't get me started on 4e's "Return to the Tomb of Horrors". I don't even play 4e, but reading through that module made me so, so terribly sad. What are kids coming to these days. :smallfrown:

The real punch line of the joke? It is- technically, but also practically- winnable, if you do everything very, very, very carefully and perfectly. And because of that, you will keep on trying to be careful enough. And you will fail, and die- suddenly and uncomprehendingly, but also probably naked, battered, exhausted, and with your alignment and/or gender reversed.

The only real way to win Tomb of Horrors? Get there. Find the doors. Remove them, go to town. Sell adamantine. Continue adventuring elsewhere.

[Aemoh87]

I say go for it. It's by far the most rewarding dungeon in the game :)

[Jair Barik]

In a way Cleric's are hardly necessary at all in the dungeon. A lot of the traps are likely save or die (in some cases no save just die) anyway or built in a nature that you probably wont survive them even if death isn't outright. As a result a Cleric isn't strictly speaking necessary.

[Jack_Simth]

The only real way to win Tomb of Horrors? Get there. Find the doors. Remove them, go to town. Sell adamantine. Continue adventuring elsewhere.
They're painted iron in the 3.5 revision... which is still the way to go, as iron is rather dense, and is 1 silver per pound.

[grimbold]

the issue is we cant buy stuff because we are in alternate uninhabited (asides from monster) dungeon dimension
the rest idea really helps

[Eldariel]

You're rather effed since you went to the Tomb of Horrors. There's also few places where Cleric or a proxy is immensely useful, but not absolutely necessary. Just...keep your smarts about you and remember that it's made to challenge the players, not the characters. You'll have to think fast and creatively to get through it. Oh, and everything is trapped. Yes, even that.

And usually, the 3.5-style "Disable X" isn't very useful when dealing with most of the stuff in the dungeon. Again, it's more about challenging the players than the characters; use your Skills but don't rely on 'em.


But the good news is that things like HP damage are among the least of your worries there so the lack of reliable healing isn't that big a deal.

[grimbold]

i have played the tomb before and i have learned NOT to touch the altars the crusader decided not to heed my warning and get one of our pet ghouls to touch it
now we're in a big fight to kill the crusader because we hate him for endangering the party

[Curmudgeon]

Tomb of Horrors is all about the Rogue. Optimize that character, with all the stat and item boosters available in the game, for Search and Disable Device. The Rogue does 93% of the work in ToH. The other characters are there just for the old-style (i.e., not disarmable) traps and monsters.

Give the Rogue a wand to activate with Use Magic Device, and they've got healing covered, too.

[SurlySeraph]

now we're in a big fight to kill the crusader because we hate him for endangering the party

Bad idea. You need him to walk in front and set off any traps the rogue misses. Also for killing that damn gargoyle.

[Amnestic]

Bad idea. You need him to walk in front and set off any traps the rogue misses. Also for killing that damn gargoyle.

Disable him, tie him up, and poke him with a sharp stick to make him walk into traps? :smallbiggrin:

[elonin]

From what I've heard the herd of cows is also a good idea.

[Tvtyrant]

Hmmm, I wonder if a party of animal handling commoners with leadership and more commoners could get through it?

[Eldariel]

Hmmm, I wonder if a party of animal handling commoners with leadership and more commoners could get through it?

No. Herding animals in is a way to make the place somewhat possible for anyone not unnaturally bright, not a way to make it trivial.

[sambo.]

dude, you're in the Tomb Of Horrors.

you'd be screwed even with a cleric.

i'd honestly suggest bugging back to town and kitting yourselves out specifically for tackling the ToH.

lot's of wands of Detect Secret Doors, Detect Traps and Lessor Vigor will come in handy.

a cleric/healbot is useful in the Tomb, but not mandatory.

[Tvtyrant]

No. Herding animals in is a way to make the place somewhat possible for anyone not unnaturally bright, not a way to make it trivial.

But with Leadership you could have thousands of chickens! Or cats! :P

[Eldariel]

But with Leadership you could have thousands of chickens! Or cats! :P

Leadership? More like Chicken-Infested!

[Tvtyrant]

Leadership? More like Chicken-Infested!

If that is a feat then you can have the people who are your followers take it too! Endless chickens!

[Jack_Simth]

If that is a feat then you can have the people who are your followers take it too! Endless chickens!
It's actually a flaw... that explicitly requires you be a commoner, too.

[Tvtyrant]

It's actually a flaw... that explicitly requires you be a commoner, too.

So a party of chicken infested commoners eh? Sounds fun!

[sreservoir]

no, no, use thrallherd. that way, you get replacements withing a reasonable amount of time if they die.

[Jack_Simth]

no, no, use thrallherd. that way, you get replacements withing a reasonable amount of time if they die.
Well, with a 24 hour delay... although how they keep showing up once you're fairly deep into the Tomb, when all the traps are reset within a day of when you disable them, I have no idea....

I'm more fond of the Summon Elemental Reserve Feat, combined with Magic Sensitive and either Acidic Splatter or Fiery Burst.

However, build suggestions don't really help the OP, as he's got established characters going into The Tomb.

Spell selection suggestions might - you can do a Trapsmith Wizard without the reserve feats - you'll just need to rest a lot. Prepare lots of Arcane Sight and Unseen Servant, and have your meatshield break a bunch of small (100 pound) boulders off the walls. Then have the Unseen Servant drag the rock around to trigger anything on the floor while you watch under Arcane Sight from a distance.

[Tyndmyr]

Hmmm, I wonder if a party of animal handling commoners with leadership and more commoners could get through it?

Nah. For one thing, some traps are not one-time deals. Others involve manipulation beyond the level of a chicken.

And while it is light on combat, the combats it has are not all trivial, and will trash commoner swarms with ease.

You don't beat ToH with your build, you beat it with your playstyle. Paranoia, caution, and experience in dungeons are extremely helpful for survival. I've seen even a two person team beat the dungeon. Granted, they had three deaths, and ended up paying pretty heavily for rezzes, but all of those deaths were easily chalked up to poor decisions.

[Douglas]

Well, with a 24 hour delay... although how they keep showing up once you're fairly deep into the Tomb, when all the traps are reset within a day of when you disable them, I have no idea....
Now that's a fun idea. High level Thrallherd with optimized "Leadership" score sets up camp deep inside the Tomb of Horrors after having exhausted his entire supply of Believers triggering traps along the way. The next day, a horde of new Believers shows up and plows through the Tomb in the same fashion to get to him, with only a tiny fraction actually reaching him, if any. This repeats daily, and soon becomes a great spectator sport as the long-standing locals take bets on the composition of the latest influx of strangers and exactly how each of them is going to die.:smallbiggrin:

[Xuincherguixe]

Tomb of Horrors isn't challenging, it's arbitrary.

More to the point if you find a way to walk on the ceiling you'll do okay for the most part.

[Tyndmyr]

Tomb of Horrors isn't challenging, it's arbitrary.

More to the point if you find a way to walk on the ceiling you'll do okay for the most part.

There will still be problems on the ceilings.

Things like pit traps and arrows are the least dangerous things in the tomb. Not only are they survivable, they offer saves, and can be easily disarmed. They're basically rogue fodder.

[Eldariel]

Tomb of Horrors isn't challenging, it's arbitrary.

Wut. Every trap can be solved with logic, albeit rather obscure in some cases. Of course, you need access to certain types of magic for certain ones. But meh.

[grimbold]

to fix our 'trap tester' problem the wizard has started summoning herds of centipedes which help a lot
also we have no rogue
if i get my wizard to cast spider climb on all of us i think the DM will somehow fix it
a couple of funny points
1. the first time i did the tomb a year ago my party had a pet magic cow
2. upon seeing the gargoyle, and not knowing what it was, i decided to destroy it while it was still in its stone form
so my optimized barbarian hit it with double 36s doing like 25 damage each and managed to crack the gargoyle in half

[Another_Poet]

Like the title says;
I recently realized (aka mid session) that my clericless group entered the tomb of horrors (lvl 8)
would i be correct in believing that we're screwed?

No, you should be "fine." And by fine I mean "no worse off than if you had a cleric."

There is relatively little combat and most of the traps are save-or-die. Have your arcanist (or druid or psion or whatever) buff your saves. Lacking a healbot shouldn't matter much.

[Eric Tolle]

You don't beat ToH with your build, you beat it with your playstyle. Paranoia, caution, and experience in dungeons are extremely helpful for survival. I've seen even a two person team beat the dungeon. Granted, they had three deaths, and ended up paying pretty heavily for rezzes, but all of those deaths were easily chalked up to poor decisions.

Either that, or have a 1st. edition complete munchkin playstyle. I remember back in the day when I first tried out the brand spanking new module Tomb of Horrors, I learned the meaning of the world munchkin. Go through the trap infested hallways? No, the players were all:

"I'll have my bronze dragon pet dig through the side of the mound!" "I'll have my type VII Demon henchman help it!" DM starts frantically trying to deal, to no avail. "What a whimpy dungeon!"

It was a couple years later I even learned the word munchkin, but oh yes I knew what they were.

[Griffin]

to fix our 'trap tester' problem the wizard has started summoning herds of centipedes which help a lot
also we have no rogue
if i get my wizard to cast spider climb on all of us i think the DM will somehow fix it
a couple of funny points
1. the first time i did the tomb a year ago my party had a pet magic cow
2. upon seeing the gargoyle, and not knowing what it was, i decided to destroy it while it was still in its stone form
so my optimized barbarian hit it with double 36s doing like 25 damage each and managed to crack the gargoyle in half

So far, I have seen a Cleric is not an absolute must for the Tomb, it does help (I haven't finished the ToH yet, but speaking of what I have seen so far), altough a Rogue its a must (Or a scout or anything that has a nice score on disable device and search), and even then, the ToH will surprise you anyway with traps that you can't imagine or encounters that will get worse, not to mention that, Muphy law may come in and screw your rolls

So all in all, not having a cleric is not the worst of your problems